One for the rules gurus.

[PeteyD]

Actually, it would be a man made object within a hazard.

The part outside of the hazard is not part of the hazard and is a free drop.

What is the ruling for temporary fencing in a hazard?

[highballin]

Question for rules gurus.

At our course we have a 170m par 3 approx 140m carry over water hazard (not lateral) depending on pin pos.

If your not sure if first ball cleared the hazard can you play a provisional or does second ball become ball in play ?

Just to clarify there is a steep bank and heavy rough just before green sometimes hard to tell if ball made it or not.

[3Puttpete]

Unless there's a local rule that allows it you can't play a provisional for a ball you think might be in a water hazard.

[Daves]

Unless there's a local rule that allows it you can't play a provisional for a ball you think might be in a water hazard.

Not quite, you have to be virtually certain it is in a water hazard. However, if the ball wasn't in the hazard, would it likely be lost?

[Hatchman]

I know the hole well and it is very hard to tell if you've carried or not and the cabbage is quite thick. Found 4 balls in that stuff before noticing mine 1/2 way up the bank 2 years ago.

If you don't see your ball splash in the water all you have to do is play a provisional for a possible lost ball and your ok. Just make sure you state "I'm going to hit a provisional in-case it's lost in the rough. Don't mention anything about the hazard.
If you find your first ball in the hazard and not playable you can't continue to play the provisional ball and must take what ever relief is applicable with the fist one.
I you can't find it than your ok to play on using the provisional under the lost ball rule.

[Hatchman]

Not quite, you have to be virtually certain it is in a water hazard. However, if the ball wasn't in the hazard, would it likely be lost?

Yes this.

[3Puttpete]

Not quite, you have to be virtually certain it is in a water hazard. However, if the ball wasn't in the hazard, would it likely be lost?

Yes when you're deciding where to play after the penalty but not in this context which is specifically about whether you can hit a provisional. Even if you see it splash (known) you can't hit a provisional.

[Daves]

Yes when you're deciding where to play after the penalty but not in this context which is specifically about whether you can hit a provisional. Even if you see it splash (known) you can't hit a provisional.

I disagree, if you think your ball maybe lost outside a water hazard, you can play a provisional;

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf...onal-Ball.aspx

[3Puttpete]

I misread the original post and thought he was asking about playing a provisional if you thought your ball might be in the hazard.

We were talking about 2 different situations but only 1 of us was talking about the relevant one. My bad.

[Daves]

I misread the original post and thought he was asking about playing a provisional if you thought your ball might be in the hazard.


We were talking about 2 different situations but only 1 of us was talking about the relevant one. My bad.

If there is a possibility that the ball is lost outside a Water Hazard, you can play a Provisional. The reason is straight forward, if you proceeded forward and were unable to find your ball, but you were not virtually certain the ball was in the Hazard, then it is a Lost Ball and you have to return to the tee. You have to be virtually certain the ball is lost in the Hazard to proceed under rule 26.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

Q. Is it true that, if a player’s original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27–2c.

[highballin]

I know the hole well and it is very hard to tell if you've carried or not and the cabbage is quite thick. Found 4 balls in that stuff before noticing mine 1/2 way up the bank 2 years ago.

If you don't see your ball splash in the water all you have to do is play a provisional for a possible lost ball and your ok. Just make sure you state "I'm going to hit a provisional in-case it's lost in the rough. Don't mention anything about the hazard.
If you find your first ball in the hazard and not playable you can't continue to play the provisional ball and must take what ever relief is applicable with the fist one.
I you can't find it than your ok to play on using the provisional under the lost ball rule.

This makes a lot of sense.

If you don't find the original which may or may not be in the hazard you play on with the provisional. That saves a long walk back to the tee. On this hole playing your third off the tee is the only option anyway if your ball is lost in the hazard.

However if you do find the original in the hazard or within margin of the hazard you must either play it as it lies or take relief as per water hazard rule.

[markTHEblake]

Just remember if you do hit a provisional and then you find your ball inside the hazard, the provisional is out of play regardless what you decide to do with the original ball.

[highballin]

Just remember if you do hit a provisional and then you find your ball inside the hazard, the provisional is out of play regardless what you decide to do with the original ball.

So on this hole if ball is in water that means you walk back to tee and play your 3rd which is exactly what your prov was anyway. Not saying it is wrong but seems an unnecessary waste of time.

[Daves]

So on this hole if ball is in water that means you walk back to tee and play your 3rd which is exactly what your prov was anyway. Not saying it is wrong but seems an unnecessary waste of time.

Yep, the Provisional is applicable only to a possible lost ball (not in a hazard). I would presume that you would still have the choice of reteeing, or dropping on the line formed by POE and the hole/flag?.

[highballin]

Yep, the Provisional is applicable only to a possible lost ball (not in a hazard). I would presume that you would still have the choice of reteeing, or dropping on the line formed by POE and the hole/flag?.

Yep re teeing only option just a long walk back though.

Thanks I understand the rule clearly now.

[highballin]

Bit more clarification on this rule.

A player is permitted to hit a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard [Rule 27-2a]. If he is unable to find the ball when he arrives at the hazard, then he must proceed as follows:

1. If there is dense undergrowth or serious rough such that a ball that is not found could be either lost somewhere in the vegetation or lost in the hazard, then the ball is officially lost and the player will continue play of the hole with the provisional ball.

2. If the land adjacent to the hazard is smooth (fairway, no dense undergrowth or rough), so that a ball not found can be assumed to be in the hazard, then the player must abandon his provisional. He must drop another ball under one of the relief options in Rule 26-1 for a ball that is in a water hazard.

[Johnny Canuck]

So on this hole if ball is in water that means you walk back to tee and play your 3rd which is exactly what your prov was anyway. Not saying it is wrong but seems an unnecessary waste of time.

Not unnecessary. If you stick the provisional tight you could then elect not to look for the first, which gives you an advantage, or some might bend the rules and even if they looked for the first, choose not to find it.

[Daves]

Bit more clarification on this rule.

A player is permitted to hit a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard [Rule 27-2a]. If he is unable to find the ball when he arrives at the hazard, then he must proceed as follows:

1. If there is dense undergrowth or serious rough such that a ball that is not found could be either lost somewhere in the vegetation or lost in the hazard, then the ball is officially lost and the player will continue play of the hole with the provisional ball.

2. If the land adjacent to the hazard is smooth (fairway, no dense undergrowth or rough), so that a ball not found can be assumed to be in the hazard, then the player must abandon his provisional. He must drop another ball under one of the relief options in Rule 26-1 for a ball that is in a water hazard.

Correct, providing it is virtually certain the ball ended up in the hazard under Scenario 2.

[highballin]

Correct, providing it is virtually certain the ball ended up in the hazard under Scenario 2.

That raises the question who has the last say about "virtually certain". I would assume it would be the player who played the ball.

My playing partners thought my ball didn't clear the hazard but I thought it did. But they were ok with me playing provisional for possible lost ball as their eyesight was worse then mine . As it turned out it did clear the hazard and I was correct in playing a provisional in case of lost ball.

Makes me wonder though what would happen if you were playing with d*ckheads who insisted your ball was virtually certain to be in the hazard. Who has the last say about "virtually certain" ? I am talking about stroke play here.

[Daves]

That raises the question who has the last say about "virtually certain". I would assume it would be the player who played the ball.

My playing partners thought my ball didn't clear the hazard but I thought it did. But they were ok with me playing provisional for possible lost ball as their eyesight was worse then mine . As it turned out it did clear the hazard and I was correct in playing a provisional in case of lost ball.

Makes me wonder though what would happen if you were playing with d*ckheads who insisted your ball was virtually certain to be in the hazard. Who has the last say about "virtually certain" ? I am talking about stroke play here.

It matters little what they think, that is no more than an opinion. To be virtually certain would require evidence, and ultimately it is the Player's decision as to whether there is enough evidence to support it being virtually certain. If there is any doubt, then it isn't certain and the only option left is that the ball is lost.

[highballin]

It matters little what they think, that is no more than an opinion. To be virtually certain would require evidence, and ultimately it is the Player's decision as to whether there is enough evidence to support it being virtually certain. If there is any doubt, then it isn't certain and the only option left is that the ball is lost.

Thanks this has really cleared up my understanding of a couple of rules and definitions.

[highballin]

Not unnecessary. If you stick the provisional tight you could then elect not to look for the first, which gives you an advantage, or some might bend the rules and even if they looked for the first, choose not to find it.

Ok fair enough too. However my understanding is there no onus on the player to look for a possible lost ball. He can declare it lost at any time ?

[bergsey]

Ok fair enough too. However my understanding is there no onus on the player to look for a possible lost ball. He can declare it lost at any time ?

You can't declare a ball lost. You can choose not to search for it though but must attempt to identify it if found by a fellow competitor

[Johnny Canuck]

Ok fair enough too. However my understanding is there no onus on the player to look for a possible lost ball. He can declare it lost at any time ?

No onus. He can call it lost, but if it is found within the 5 min and before another shot is played from a point past where the ball was believed to be lost, it must be played.

In situation the was referenced earlier, if it was unsure if the ball was in the hazard or lost, you couldn't simply call it a lost ball and play the provisional if there was a chance that it is in the hazard. A ball in the hazard cannot be treated as a lost ball.

I hope that makes sense.

[Ashes]

No onus. He can call it lost, but if it is found within the 5 min and before another shot is played from a point past where the ball was believed to be lost, it must be played.

In situation the was referenced earlier, if it was unsure if the ball was in the hazard or lost, you couldn't simply call it a lost ball and play the provisional if there was a chance that it is in the hazard. A ball in the hazard cannot be treated as a lost ball.

I hope that makes sense.

What do you do if you don't if it's lost or in the hazard?