Virge's Swing.

[razaar]

Virge...looked at your vid on weight shift. The thing that struck me was both models represent approx. .005% of golfers. Most people who play the game wouldn't get anywhere close to those positions because their core muscles and hip flexors/ hamstrings haven't the strength or flexibility. How do you explain the weight shift and turn to golfers who can't get into those positions?

[markTHEblake]

The mats at most facilities are rubbish - can't beat grass, but ti needs to be good grass and the grass at Narrabeen is shite.

As is most ranges - i prefer the matts as it is gives me a more stable footing.

[Jarro]

GE type swing feels very stable especially with the irons.

It does doesn't it

[virge666]

How do you explain the weight shift and turn to golfers who can't get into those positions?

Bloody great Question, and i don't know if I can answer it completely. I have asked a few people this especially in the USA where the few teaching courses I did had quite a few . . . ummm . . . large people. Also - what about older guys who haven't got the flexability... or the strength they use to have.

The answer I got in the USA was to "Educate the hands", so there idea is to teach lag and work from there. Also a lot of right shoulder and "plane" work going on here. Another said go deeper back with the right hip, another said go to the gym.

The Edwin way from my knowledge is to simply create angles using your body and arms and release the club head with your body. If you maintain the angles - you can still compress the ball. I have seen children, men and women of all ages and one poor old bloke with a muscle wasting disease hit balls using Edwin's method, it was pretty cool.

Both do the same job in getting the body in a good position to allow the hands to release properly, and both had the bump/slide/brace/sit down to start the downswing.

Either way - we are teaching turn and hand action. Weight shift will take care of itself. Don't care about weight shift.

Posture and Turn . . .

[sms316]

Is teaching a sway an option?

For the record - I'm not a rap on the Edwin method. I've seen some really good golfers get really screwed up swinging like that. They've all become snaphookaholics.

[virge666]

Is teaching a sway an option?

They've all become snaphookaholics.

No, not unless you want to hit it softer.

1. You need to hit down on the ball.
2. You need lag in either swing.
3. If you sway on the backswing - you have to sway on the downswing to get back to the ball.
4. This moves the centre of your swing.
5. If you move the center - this slows the swing. Also requires timing to hit it correctly. Also brings pull cuts, slices, high fades and smoothered shots into play.

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As for snap-a-holics, me too. Lonard another, Paul Gow another. But we aren't doing it properly. I really struggle with this - especially under pressure.

My smaller muscles get quicker and larger muscles slow down. i don't bump on the downswing and my hands rotate the clubface over too quickly and we are going left. i don't think i have ever faded the ball over the last 3 or 4 holes.

It is also because before we all had the Edwin swings we ALL use to rotate our hands over VERY agressively through impact. With this swing, it is a body release - so the hands are way more passive. it is more about arm speed than hand speed.

Add pressure and it all can turn to shit. Has many times. But that is my fault not the swing pattern, though I have been known to call Gary various body parts.

[sms316]

Perhaps I am being far too simple about this, but I firmly believe that golf is a simple game, made difficult by the people who play it.

I really struggle to believe that the Edwin method has an overwhelming success rate with quality golfers, looking for that extra result. Your post has just made me realise why. I can't think of anything more difficult than attempting to just throw out an action that comes naturally, and has been rehearsed hundreds of thousands of times.

It reminds me a little of when Faldo tore his swing apart in the mid-eighties and came back a better golfer. I reckon he did the world a disservice in a way, as many others have ripped their games to shreds and haven't come back as half the golfer they were. How much time should one be prepared to tolerate their game going to shit, with a mystical carrot of greatness dangling in front of them?

At least Faldo remodeld his swing with characteristics which were natural. Doing something so far removed from the norm is very dangerous territory.

[virge666]

Your post has just made me realise why. I can't think of anything more difficult than attempting to just throw out an action that comes naturally, and has been rehearsed hundreds of thousands of times.

Two probs . .

1 - What is natural ? The golf swing - your golf swing isn't natural. it never has been, it is not like throwing a ball or swinging a baseball bat or hitting a tennis ball. It is something you have learned and ingrained over the years. What makes it un-natural is the fact you are bent over at the hips swinging out to the left. There is NOTHING else we do like this.

2 - I find the Edwin swing easier. I can do both, and I can play both ways easily in the low single figures. I just find the RSS easier to repeat, less wear and tear on the body and has way better distance control than I had with pulling my right side through. The ball makes a better sound too.

I find it easier to teach as I can relate it to other sports. A tennis or squash forehand, leg glance in cricket, throwing a ball or javelin or discus. All of these sports use the hips to create leverage instead of using it to generate speed.

This is why I chose it as my swing pattern.

We shouldn't call it an Edwin swing - cause there are heaps of people out there who swing it this way. Think of it as a body release vs hands release. Paul Casey is a right sided swing but doesn't look like he is killing a cat in a phone booth. All those swings you see on tour where the club releases up in front of their chest instead of around over their shoulder. They are ALL right sided swings.

Once you get the idea that the RSS is not locking out your left hip and jamming down on the ball - you will find that it is way simpler than clearing your hips and timing your hand rotation.

We all screw it up and there are always stories of people trying something and failing. Leadbetter and Charles Howell is one that comes to mind immediately. Paul Gow and Gary Edwin, Mickelson and Harmon will be annother.

It is up to you and what suits you. but once you make this choice - make the commitment, I also know heaps of guys winghing about GE, "I did it for 3 months and didn't like it" kind of stuff. There are also the mad zealots that can't stop telling you how good it is. I hope I am somewhere in the middle.

It is like all the Mac vs PC rubbish, pick a way and hit the friggin ball.

I love your Avatar too.

[Toolish]

We all screw it up and there are always stories of people trying something and failing. Leadbetter and anyone other than Faldo is one that comes to mind immediately.

fixed

[virge666]

fixed

Fantastic to have an Editor available.

Top Notch job.

[razaar]

Virge... you asked in an earlier post how would I teach a person the head still method (maybe not in those words ). Todays Tats game at Indro GC was cancelled so I spent some time on the practice fairway mulling over this question. Actually it proved to be a welcome break from my usual practic seasons and I actually learnt something or remembered something that we used to practice in the 80s.

Scottt, I will try very hard not to use words that might alienate me but sometimes there is no other way to say it.

What I came up with revolves around the plane and address position.

Address: Ensure the right shoulder is lower than the left to compensate for the right hand being below the left hand. The arms form a triangle and it is the centre of this triangle ( point between the clavical bones) at the base of the neck on which to focus. Imagine a plumbbob suspended vertically from this point, which should point to a spot on a line between the balls of the feet (or thereabouts) if your butt is held high & not sagging.
If you have wide shoulders this point will be more towards your right foot than somebody with narrow shoulders. The turn is made around this vertical line, it doesn't matter if it is slightly to the right of the line but both turns must not cross the line to the left until the ball has been struck. The head only comes into the act on the forward turn to act as a brace to stop the centre swaying to the left.

Plane: The plane of the swing has its radius from the ball to the same point at the base of the neck. Think of this radius as a spoke in a large wheel on which the clubhead will travel around the spine. It doesn't really do this but it is a good image to have in your mind on the backswing and through swing. Beginners should be encouraged to feel something solid connecting both points (the hands have nothing to do with this). Better golfers will need to rotate the forearms (clockwise) on the backswing just enough that the right elbow/forearm is dead vertical; and rotate forearms (anticlockwise) on the through swing so the left forearm/elbow is vertical.
Advanced golfers are more focused on the plane past the ball position because it is this section of the swing which determines where the clubface is pointing through the swing.

That was my 45 minutes on the practice fairway.

[virge666]

That was my 45 minutes on the practice fairway.

Sensational mate - Technical enough for a teacher and easy to demonstrate.

Absolute cracker !!

So now we have the turn done in a couple of drills... how about the seperation on the downswing ?

[razaar]

No need...the separation moves are for the power swings. SMS was right about the hooking problem with the RSS. This swing creates lots of torque for those who perform it well, consequently the old method of release with the hands will not work with this technique. The right wrist has to remain flexed at and past impact to guard against a hook. It is best to set flex in the right wrist at address and return to this flex through impact. I will post a couple of drills with a baseball bat which will help with the "stretch shorting cycle" near impact.

The other problem is the tightness of the coil can lead some players to slide a bit with the hips instead of thrusting back with the left leg to pull the left hip directly behind. This is done simultaneously with separating the left shoulder from above the chin. A good coil has the left shoulder covering the chin not under it. The right shoulder and right leg stay still until activated by the unwinding of the thigh and torso muscles.

Mate I have not seen or read anything on the RSS from people who teach this technique so my comments may not be relevant.

[virge666]

Mate I have not seen or read anything on the RSS from people who teach this technique so my comments may not be relevant.

Raz,

You ideas are very correct in my books. Especially the role of the right wrist... It is hard for people to trust this action with out thinking it is going miles right, so they rotate the wrists. = snap a holics.

[razaar]

Drill to activate the stretch-shortening cycle:

1. Stand in an upright position with a baseball bat or weighted club.
2. Start with the bat slightly in front of a level impact position, about waist high.
3. Move the bat as fast as possible in a backwards direction.
4. As soon as the bat moves beyond the impact point, stop it from moving any further and reverse direction.
5. Do 10 to 12 reps.

Tips:

• you can do this in both directions.
• It is important not to substitute with other parts of the body.

[goonie]

That is one thing that really bothers me about judging of teachers. People automatically assume that you need to be the best in your field to be a great teacher. This is simply not true.

Just like a good English teacher does not need to be the world's greatest author, a golf teacher does not really need to be a scratch-or-better golfer. So many people are judged as a teacher on their individual skill, when their real ability is how well they can communicate and teach others.

Sure, there is a basic level of proficiency required. But beyond that level, their standing in world rankings generally will have little to do with their ability to teach. (And once again, I am not simply talking about golf here.)

I agree that people who had to work harder to be good at something are quite often better at teaching something than someone that is a natural, just look at some of the NRL coaches for example, some of them wern't the best or most naturally talented players, but I bet they had to work hard to get to the level they did, and therefore developed a good understanding of the game and have since made good coaches.

[Hack and Slash]

Hey Virge,

I notice Brad Lamb pretty much picks it clean off the grass in all the clips

I've seen. Is this just unique to him or is it due to the RSS?

[virge666]

Jarro, as promised.

Driver Swings gents. Same drill - same swing. No problem with the woods.

http://happybandits.com/virge/Virge/Driver120309.wmv

Hack and slash - big divots come from steep swings. Think Sergio and Allenby, very aggressive move down on the ball - this give the deep divot. The RSS is a pretty shallow angle into the ball as there is not much leg action on the downswing.

[Jarro]

Thanks Virge ...

.. swing looks good

[virge666]

Thanks Virge ...

.. swing looks good

It will be crap again by the time the champs come along !!!

[Jarro]

It will be crap again by the time the champs come along !!!

Yeah right, along with everyone elses

[dan]

http://happybandits.com/virge/Virge/Driver120309.wmv

Were you swinging faster on the last two? You look quicker from behind.

[razaar]

It will be crap again by the time the champs come along !!!

Why...should be better by the time we have had our way with you.
I can see a big improvement in your turn back into the ball and beyond, getting that left hip back behind you is the key provided it is done with some resistance from the right side at the start to give some speed to the right side when it finally comes in. That is the separation factor.

[oobsadd2]

Were you swinging faster on the last two? You look quicker from behind.

Also go to horozontal at the top of the backswing for the last one. Must have been his one down playn the last swing.

[virge666]

Jarro,

It must be the alcohol. Sunday was a hard hard day. I am so looking forward to this years shindig.

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and Dan - yeah the last one was a bit of a thumper, i had been practicing hitting 6i and 8i 100m for about an hour working on my right arm and I wanted to loosen up a bit. The two front and 1st back are pretty much the same though.
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Cheers Razaar, it is amazing what an hour of pitching will do for you full swing.
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Oobs

I am still a little long and crossed up at the top.. once I get the right arm sorted - it will look a lot better