Virge's Swing.

[markTHEblake]

I often wondered why when I play at the Colonial I have an awesome up and down ratio. Finally figured it out, massive green complexes with very wide fringes. It seems Impossible to miss a green wide enough to have a difficult chip. I think it's the only course where I get to play chip and run shots.

[virge666]

Righto,

Changed it again with thanks for ProGolf gear. Stupid rabbit ears. more width and turn on the backswing.

New video up later today.

[virge666]

Yeah - that didn't work.

Back to my Edwin stuff - My brain got too excited and listened to too many people, and my game turned to shit.

Rocking the right sided swing again.

[dan]

You sort of swat at the ball rather than swing through. Were you trying to hit knock down shots?

[Jarro]

Welcome back Virge

[virge666]

You sort of swat at the ball rather than swing through. Were you trying to hit knock down shots?

Nah - there were a couple of hold off cuts there... but it was 8 iron and it was going about 135-140m which is about what I want. I can swing harder... but I have a 7 iron if i want it to go further.

It is the Edwin swing... the body release doesn;t have that extension I think you are looking for.

I do need to get more lag on the downswing though... it is not loading enough which why the follow though is a bit short, not enough mometum

Things to do on Thursday...

[virge666]

You sort of swat at the ball rather than swing through. Were you trying to hit knock down shots?

After more investigation, your right dude - the lag is shit..

bugger... I am just chucking it away.

[live4golf]

you look very cramped on the top of your backswing mate, your hands don't seem to have anywhere to go...sort of makes it hard to drop your hands to start your swing. Is this all part of what you are trying? - could you get your hands a bit higher at the top of your backswing? Makes it look like your left arm is bending at the elbow too.

[dan]

live4golf sorta hints at the issue too with the crampness and bent elbow.... though i don't think your elbow is bent, it's just i'd like to see more width and extension in the backswing. But i'm not familiar with Edwin theory so I could be way off the mark. Pampling seems to get good extension (from memory). Anyway, if it's repeatable and you're happy with flight, distance and accuracy then that's what matters.

[virge666]

you look very cramped on the top of your backswing mate, your hands don't seem to have anywhere to go...sort of makes it hard to drop your hands to start your swing. Is this all part of what you are trying? - could you get your hands a bit higher at the top of your backswing? Makes it look like your left arm is bending at the elbow too.

live4golf sorta hints at the issue too with the crampness and bent elbow.... though i don't think your elbow is bent, it's just i'd like to see more width and extension in the backswing. But i'm not familiar with Edwin theory so I could be way off the mark. Pampling seems to get good extension (from memory). Anyway, if it's repeatable and you're happy with flight, distance and accuracy then that's what matters.

I am too far inside on the backswing.

Check the view from down the line... to much accross my chest. Which means too much body to release the clubhead.

Cheers boys.

[Yossarian]

You need to work more on your short game.

[virge666]

You need to work more on your short game.

I was waiting . . .

[razaar]

Virge
I have never understood the swing concept "right sided swing". Faldo uses these words in his instruction books. TGM, from comments made by OLd Loren on issek (I can call him old because he has a few years on me) is an advocate of the right hand/arm controlling the swing. My difficulty with this description is that in all efficient and repeatable swings the downswing starts with a speed move shifting weight over to the lead leg (even with stack & tilt) where rotation works its magic with an in-to-out to-in swing path through impact. The swing guru's agree that the centre of rotation for a righty is the left shoulder (because of the extended left arm) until the left arm folds after impact and the right arm stays extended making the right shoulder the centre of rotation. If the left shoulder is the centre of rotation then the left arm and hand need to be the controlling upper limb otherwise the opposite limb will overpower the left. This goes against the Laws of Rotation in the principle of Conservation of Angular Momentum.

I could understand "right sided swing" relating to the right arm and side being employed in extension of the right wrist during the backswing but I don't see that in your swing. Neither do I see your right leg exerting resistance during the backswing to make the speed move across to the left side where lag is created. (It may be there , I just can't see it. So I am guessing that your downswing starts with rotation of the trunk?) Lag being the extension of the right wrist (dorsal flexion).

I am not familar with Edwin's stuff, maybe you can explain what you are trying to do.

[virge666]

Ray,

Wish I could. Don't think right sided - think strong left sided.

The right side drives around the left... the left side doesn't pull the right side through. It drives with the club loaded and to avoid it getting steep we almost cast it, but we cast it with a bent right wrist.

See - told you . . .

You at the champs this year ?

[razaar]

Anthony
This vid analysis of Web Simpson's swing is the closest to explaining the sorts of things you might consider introducing into your swing. Where Simpson has a rigid left arm, it may be that he has the elbow facing towards his body, where it should be anyway for an extended arm. Your comments about the right side is spot on but not the way you put it. The right side rotates around the left side which has cleared but the right side is not the force causing this. The force is the resistance of the left side which is working from left to right . This force works from the ball of the foot up to the hip but only when the centre of mass has been shifted across to just inside the left foot.

http://www.waynedefrancesco.com/1992...wing-analyzed/

I can't comment on Edwin's stuff, but by looking at the swings of his star pupils the proper foot work for resistance on both sides appears to be missing from their actions. Their swings seem to lack ground reaction forces which are a feature of all the top swings on tour.

[virge666]

We don't clear out left side - Because we dont move the left hip back from the setup position.
We also dont extend the right arm down the line as our right hip is moving past the left.
We also dont have a rigid left arm - just don't need to when we are not using width to generate power, we are using lag.
Our right shoulder is a lot lower too, we dont tilt as per stack and tilt.
Also a lot flatter on the downswing. Shaft is meant to be on teh right forearm, not just above.

and many many more . . .

we dont downcock or float-load the downswing.
we dont just slide the hips - we brace the entire upper body as well.
the takeaway is on the foot line - not outside.

shall i go on ?

[razaar]

Mate, I can't understand any of that. Is that what he teaches?

[virge666]

I can't comment on Edwin's stuff, but by looking at the swings of his star pupils the proper foot work for resistance on both sides appears to be missing from their actions. Their swings seem to lack ground reaction forces which are a feature of all the top swings on tour.

Look again and cover the player from the hips up... most of out power comes from ground reaction forces. We are pretty much jamming the club into an active lower half.

We did this comparison at a Srixon coaching summit in 2002 i think... and the edwin boys have way more lower body action that Scott, Davis Love Tiger and a few others.

It is all perception, you dont see the big move on the backswing or the big clearing of the hips on the downswing, so your brain just says the legs are static

Look again.

[razaar]

After looking at what you've added I am starting to understand what this swing is about. It is an upper body swing with the legs as a platform. The difference is this type of swing doesn't work from the ground up. Everything else is the same for those that use arm rotation . I only used Simpson's swing to show you how the legs work.

[virge666]

Mate, I can't understand any of that. Is that what he teaches?

Nope - that is just a comparison to Webb Simpson. Nick Watney has the same kind of swing as Webb IMHO.

We hit a golf ball the same way you throw a ball, or hit a tennis shot, or pass a rugby ball.

We start in something closer to an impact position
We dont move off the ball on the backswing, we just coil the shoulders.
We then just hold the angles and maintain that width through impact.
The angles we have created is what gives us power - and I just do it faster if I want to hit it further.

That is a very simplistic way of saying it... but that is why i like it, there is no timing, it is very economical and I can do it all day with pain or tiredness. It is also stupidly straight.

You have heard all the comments, you look cramped, looks like a punch shot, doesn't go anywhere... I aint short, I aint stupidly long either, but i have won the longest drive anytime Jono isn't at the champs.

[razaar]

I think we were cross posting there, mate..
Correct me if I am wrong here, Edwin teaches keeping the centre of mass just left of centre from setup until after impact. The legs are not engaged to shift weight (because it doesn't move) or assist in rotation on either side. The legs are braces for the work performed by the core and shoulders.

[popper81]

I have a few of the current vids for Edwin at the moment..... Happy to share with you Virge, although my understanding you have spent plenty of time with him before.. I have just started to get this right, 6 months hard work breaking bad habits. I have been seeing Don fardon at hope island, guy is brilliant!

It is a hard concept to explain, but when it is on, feels amazing.

[virge666]

I think we were cross posting there, mate..
Correct me if I am wrong here, Edwin teaches keeping the centre of mass just left of centre from setup until after impact. The legs are not engaged to shift weight (because it doesn't move) or assist in rotation on either side. The legs are braces for the work performed by the core and shoulders.

No mate - not even close, that is what everyone thinks...

Centre of mass in centered.
Legs move to assist rotation
Legs work hard through the release.

[virge666]

After looking at what you've added I am starting to understand what this swing is about. It is an upper body swing with the legs as a platform. The difference is this type of swing doesn't work from the ground up. Everything else is the same for those that use arm rotation . I only used Simpson's swing to show you how the legs work.

Mate - you HAVE to use the ground. otherwise you have no kinetic chain and no real power behind the hit.

Throw a ball hard against a wall - do you use your hips and legs ????

How much ??

We use them about that much as well !

[razaar]

I am a bit confused about how the legs work in your action. Can you describe what they do?
Let me reword that. Throwing a ball is a front on action where the harder the throw the further the right hip moves back against a braced right foot and knee. The weight (centre of mass ) moves back against this brace. The throwing action starts with the the weight being transferred forward towards a resisting left foot/lower leg which firms up and braces as to ball leaves the hand. The golf swing is a side on rotating action.