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Thread: Virge's Swing.

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarro View Post
    Thanks Virge ...

    .. just like Pamplings as you said
    Yeah - I know . . . not even close !

    give me a month . . . I am working on it.

    (I putt better than Pamps though . . .)

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    Yeah - I know . . . not even close !

    give me a month . . . I am working on it.

    (I putt better than Pamps though . . .)
    Not taking the piss or anything

    Pamps swing is awesome and would be very hard to replicate IMO. He seems to have moved away slightly from the full-on Edwin method and has created a bit of hybrid swing.

    It's a beautiful action though.
    Originally Posted by sms316
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  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarro View Post
    Pamps swing is awesome and would be very hard to replicate IMO. He seems to have moved away slightly from the full-on Edwin method and has created a bit of hybrid swing.
    He is pure Edwin mate... absolutley pure.

    He just has such a strong core and he has been doing it longer than some of the less graceful others, he just makes it look prettier . . . and more powerful.

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    Virge, send me your address again...

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    He is pure Edwin mate... absolutley pure.

    He just has such a strong core and he has been doing it longer than some of the less graceful others, he just makes it look prettier . . . and more powerful.
    Yeah he does make it look better than the others .... i especially like his fuller follow thru ... not the cut off ending most others have.
    Originally Posted by sms316
    Without rules there is anarchy.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarro View Post
    Yeah he does make it look better than the others .... i especially like his fuller follow thru ... not the cut off ending most others have.
    Just like this...


  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarro View Post
    Thanks Virge ...

    .. just like Pamplings as you said
    No.

    Pamp's is rotating powerfully about an axis that is slanted away from the target. Virge is rotating around a more vertical axis.

    Watch their heads. Pamp's head moves slightly away from the target throught the impact zone. Virge's doesn't.

    If I got a force plate under their shoes, the pattern would be completely different.


    pamp vs virge.JPG
    Last edited by Jono; 13th December 2011 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #458
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    Yep - Nice one Jono.

    Now - how to fix it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    Yep - Nice one Jono.

    Now - how to fix it ?
    How about a swing analysis ... Virge Vs Pamps .... Virge style
    Originally Posted by sms316
    Without rules there is anarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jarro View Post
    How about a swing analysis ... Virge Vs Pamps .... Virge style
    There would be a lot of swearing...


  11. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    There would be a lot of swearing...

    We can handle that i'm sure
    Originally Posted by sms316
    Without rules there is anarchy.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    Yep - Nice one Jono.

    Now - how to fix it ?
    Virge,

    In my stash of golfing literature, I have a paper called Ground reaction forces and torques of professional and amateur golfers.

    In it is a graph showing the ground forces of both feet at various stages of the golf swing. If I showed you this graph, you would "get it" straight away.

    I'll photocopy it and bring it to the long reef game. If you have some time after the game, I'll show it to you and explain the concepts.

  13. #463
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    Pamps pivot point is his right knee, not sure what Virge's is.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  14. #464
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    Here's virge's first move down ...

    webcam to gif


    And heres Pamps ...

    gif webcam


    Can you see the difference?

    Virge is shifting his whole body towards the target. Look at his right leg shifting towards the target as well. Virge often complains that his right hip drops down. Here's why. His right leg is alread leaning towards the target at the top of the backswing and as he shifts towards the target, it leans even more. You don't have to be a maths genius to figure out that this means his right hip will drop. The only way he can prevent the right hip from dropping is if he goes from a flexed right knee position at the top of the backswing and extends his right leg as he shifts towards the target. However, this would be a serious power leakage.

    Look at Pampling's right knee. It gets more flexed but it doesn't shift towards the target. His right hip "stays high".

    Now, what's happening here? Is Pamps just keeping his right leg posted and moving everything else? Is the right leg passive? IMO, no. His right leg is very active. He is externally rotating his right leg at the hip joint. If he was suspended in air and his foot was not touching the ground, his right foot would turn clockwise. However, the ground his preventing that happen. His right foot exerts clockwise torque on the ground and the ground in return exerts counter clockwise torque on his right leg. This allows his right leg to stay where it is instead of turning to the right.

    Look at this animation.

    webcam to gif

    It is my crude diagram of the lower body as seen from above the player. The green bar represents the pelvis, showing how it has turned clockwise about 45 degrees at the top of the backswing. The red bar shows the direction the right leg is pointing (further illustrated by the red arrow). The right leg is in INTERNALLY ROTATED position at the right hip joint. The yellow bar indicates the orientation of the left leg.

    As the downswing starts, note how the right leg keeps facing the same direction but the pelvis and the left leg have turned clockwise. However, if the player was suspended, sometime like this will happen.

    gif webcam

    It is the ground reaction force that allows the pelvis to turn counterclockwise (ie towards the target) instead of letting the right knee turn clockwise (ie away from the target)

    In swings that are more vigorous, the right leg actually turns clockwise at the start of the swing. Let's look at Jamie Sadlowski's swing.

    webcam gif

    See his right knee flexing and his right leg turning clockwise (ie away from the target)?

    This move creates the "squat look" that we see in many powerful swings. Its a powerful move. It starts the turning of the pelvis in the counterclockwise direction and sets you up in a powerful "ready" position with the both knees flexed and wide apart, from which you can really fire through impact.

    Virge lacks this external rotation at the right hip joint along with the right knee flexion. He is shifting to his left and getting ready to post on his left leg.
    Last edited by Jono; 13th December 2011 at 11:54 PM.

  15. #465
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    Now comparison through impact ...

    Here's Virge.

    webcam to gif


    And now here's Pamps.

    gif webcam

    From the initial shift at the start of his downswing, Virge now just turns around a vertical axis in a horizontal circle. Like this.

    webcam gif

    Pamps on the otherhand rotates on an axis more like this.

    webcam to gif

    If there was a ground force measuring device, it would record a sharp spike under Pampling's left foot just before impact as his left leg goes from flexed to straight. The left foot is pushing the ground DOWN (which produces an UPWARD ground reaction force) and the left foot is also exerting a counterclockwise force on the ground (which produces a clockwise ground force, helping the left leg to internally rotate through impact).

    Virge does produce some ground reaction force with his left foot but nowhere near as much. His left leg stays bent rather than extending through impact indicating that he is not pushing DOWN on the ground with his left foot through impact.

    Look at Virge's left shoulder through impact and look at Pampling's left shoulder. Virges left shoulder goes more AROUND and BEHIND him. Pampling's left shoulder moves UP and AWAY FROM THE TARGET. I've tried to show this with the red arrow in the above animation.

    Look how Virge's spine tilt (ie spine angle leaning away from the target) remains the same (actually loses the spine tilt slightly). Look how Pampling's spine tilt INCREASES through impact.

    Everying I said above is exaggerated in Jamie Sadlowski's swing.

    webcam gif

    In summary, Virge has a good swing and I have exaggerated some of his faults to highlight the differences between his swing and Pampling's swing. If he can make some of the more dynamic moves I've outlined above and learn to use his body and ground forces more effectively, I think his swing will be more powerful and efficient.

    Enjoy ...
    Last edited by Jono; 14th December 2011 at 01:01 AM.

  16. #466
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    Nice work Jono
    Originally Posted by sms316
    Without rules there is anarchy.

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    The above 2 gifs show virge and pamps almost identical at the start of the downswing. Great lag! maybe virge has a little more weight on the left foot at impact and through the swing. Swing looks powerful yet compact tho. Very nice ..I'll leave the golf analysis to more educated teachers than me. Just really wanted to say what a good job jono did here. Very detailed and I'm sure time consuming. Good stuff mate.
    Last edited by sol381; 14th December 2011 at 05:59 AM.

  18. #468
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    Bloody nice work John . . . I am off to the range to get the left shoulder going up.

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    Welcome to my last 2 weeks with Jono!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peppas View Post
    Welcome to my last 2 weeks with Jono!
    Unwinding the right thigh doesn't work unless the player has made a couple of key moves. I trust Jono told you what they are.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by razaar View Post
    Unwinding the right thigh doesn't work unless the player has made a couple of key moves. I trust Jono told you what they are.
    I hope so too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    The above 2 gifs show virge and pamps almost identical at the start of the downswing. Great lag! maybe virge has a little more weight on the left foot at impact and through the swing. Swing looks powerful yet compact tho. Very nice ..I'll leave the golf analysis to more educated teachers than me. Just really wanted to say what a good job jono did here. Very detailed and I'm sure time consuming. Good stuff mate.
    You are looking at what most people look at and ignoring the rest. Left arm to shaft angle doesn't mean anything at the start of the downswing. Many hackers can achieve great "lag" at the start of the downswing. It's how far into the downswing you can sustain it. And you can't sustain it unless your body moves more dynamically.

    Look at the following picture. Now can you tell the difference?

    preimpact pamp vs virge.JPG

    Virge's body has already fired. He's lost a lot of his lag. all he can do from here is either drag the club through impact and rotate his body.

    Look at pamps. His body hasn't fired yet. His left foot is now pushing hard into the ground and starting a dynamic release procedure.

    Don't get me wrong. Virge's swing is VERY good. He does many things right. I've seen him at the range and he flushes the ball. However, he is a student of the golf swing as I am and I'm sure he's looking to improve all the time. That's why I've highlighted what he doesn't do right.
    Last edited by Jono; 14th December 2011 at 01:09 PM.

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    i understand that... i didn't mean the 2 gifs of each player i meant virge and pamps individual gifs .. i wasn't ignoring the rest i just didnt see it.. i didn't see the impact in the shot but as i was trying to convey the first part looks good.. just trying to hold that lag a bit longer is the hard part.. a picture paints a 1000 words and id be damned if i could do what you've done here.. good luck with working your swing out too virge. looks like it very close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    i understand that... i didn't mean the 2 gifs of each player i meant virge and pamps individual gifs .. i wasn't ignoring the rest i just didnt see it.. i didn't see the impact in the shot but as i was trying to convey the first part looks good.. just trying to hold that lag a bit longer is the hard part.. a picture paints a 1000 words and id be damned if i could do what you've done here.. good luck with working your swing out too virge. looks like it very close.
    But that's just it. You can't just HOLD a lag. It has to happen dynamically. It is the incorrect body movements at the start of the downswing, as small and insignificant as they seem, that lead to early release.

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    i think ill just keep quiet now


 

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