Ashlar/ Stonecutters Ridge Swap Deal

[Scottt]

There was also a plan to move the clubhouse down to the river.

[Grunt]

Last time I was there there were reno's done to the current clubhouse.

[Scottt]

BIG NEWS

The vote has been delayed until next year and is EXTREMELY unlikely to be successful.

The guy we played with today sugested as much, and I made a few enquiries this afternoon. Looks like he is on the mark.

[Grunt]

Maybe the land is not as good for building houses as the club thought.

[Scottt]

The council is right behind the plan. The mayor told me four or five months ago that there would be no council objection. They want an additional 200,000 people in the LGA by 2020, and other than the Ashlar site, there is very little greenfield land available. The only other option is to go up on already developed land.

The course is in magnificent nick at the moment, and it appears that many members are realising that for three times the annual fee, it's unlikely they will be getting three times the course.

Plus for the established areas of Blacktown (South Blacktown, city centre, Marayong, Lalor Park, Seven Hills), Colebee is an extra 10-minute drive.

The risk is that the club itself struggles for non-golf patrons by not having a main road frontage, but it seems many members don't believe the financial position will be an issue.

[Grunt]

Good to hear, I actually like the course. It is one of the few Sydney golf Courses I would join if I were to join one.

[Scottt]

Yeah, for $1000 a year it's a sensational track, and it has two strong mid-week comps.

[WeekendHacker]

but at the end of he day it is now $1200.00 and will increase at the full 15% per year allowable by the clubs constitution. The membrship is now about the same as it was at the same time last year as people have left after the fees were increased for this year and new members joining with the view the course will be moving to Stonecutters. There has been absolutley zero information disseminated by the club on the current status of the move/deal and the only way any info s getting around is from talking to other members who have had a chat with one of the board. The more Yes voters I am speaing to from week to week the more of these are changing their mind now to undecided or no voters due to the lack of any info at all coming directly from the board. The way they have treated this from day one and the total lack of any respect for the members of the club deserves to see this die a natural death. The thing they do not seem to grasp is that without this deal going through Ashlar will be housing in the next 5 years anyway. The question is will the members decide who itis that develops the land or will it be out of their hands?

[Not so Big Easy]

Could this Ashlar / Stonecutters deal look to fall through, because perhaps the personnel representing Ashlar in discussions with UPL are out of their depths with regards to business dealings of this size?

As a member of Ashlar too, should the vote go ahead shortly, I am in two minds as to how to vote - do I vote yes and go over with the existing management, or do I vote no and when the club is established take a chance that the joining fee will be dropped (as I believe is the case with another golf community club - Twin Creeks) but the course will be managed by experience personnel in club & facilities management such as Troon?

[WeekendHacker]

Could this Ashlar / Stonecutters deal look to fall through, because perhaps the personnel representing Ashlar in discussions with UPL are out of their depths with regards to business dealings of this size?

As a member of Ashlar too, should the vote go ahead shortly, I am in two minds as to how to vote - do I vote yes and go over with the existing management, or do I vote no and when the club is established take a chance that the joining fee will be dropped (as I believe is the case with another golf community club - Twin Creeks) but the course will be managed by experience personnel in club & facilities management such as Troon?

I think you have nailed it on the head there. The board, even with legal help are way out of their depth in this. Whilst they are doing the best they can is it really the best for the club and members?

UPL has asked for 2 spots on the board if it all goes through. This will not give them a controlling vote as the board i made up of 7 people but I think even they have seen that maybe in order for the new course to succeed there needs to be a bit of experience on the board to ensure the same financial situation and decsion making processes do not happen with Stonecutters as has happened with Ashlar.

[amanda]

Hi all!

There has been absolutley zero information disseminated by the club on the current status of the move/deal and the only way any info s getting around is from talking to other members who have had a chat with one of the board. The more Yes voters I am speaing to from week to week the more of these are changing their mind now to undecided or no voters due to the lack of any info at all coming directly from the board.

I agree that poor communication is going to give all the members the craps and turn the tide of things. Expectations management is key in any big change.

The thing they do not seem to grasp is that without this deal going through Ashlar will be housing in the next 5 years anyway

Sad isn't it - we went through the same deal at NB - most members couldn't see that poor cash flow was going to kill the club

[zipptopp]

I would expect the AGM to be very well patronised this year.

Maybe the board will tell us what is going on then. They maybe restrained by commercial confidence requirements but at least an explanation would settle the members.

[3oneday]

Depends on what's in it for the board.

[Not so Big Easy]

I was surprised to see more information up in the clubhouse on the weekend, however it was merely a draft design of the clubhouse and a few other things that UPL could supply quite easily.

A few of the members share the same concerns as myself as to whether by accepting the proposal with the existing leaders, could Stonecutters face the same fate as Ashlar is now?

I believe the AGM for Ashlar is to be held later this year, and if Scottt is correct by saying that the vote for the proposal is put off till next year, then the AGM will hopefully be a great forum to disclose the actual status of the proposal.

Personally, if I was running for the committee (as much as I'd love to I can't commit to it, and wouldn't want to deprive someone who may have the time), I'd be sending out an email or letter asking for feedback on the current situation of the Ashlar Golf Club from where they sit. If you want to represent the club, then you need to know what the key ingredient of the club feels and views.

I'd be curious to know what other Sydney golf clubs are facing financial hardship and see what the common factor is amongst the clubs in crisis.

[WeekendHacker]

I was surprised to see more information up in the clubhouse on the weekend, however it was merely a draft design of the clubhouse and a few other things that UPL could supply quite easily.

It was nice to see some proper drawings of the clubhouse rather than the one done by someones 3 year old child that has been up there for some time.

A few of the members share the same concerns as myself as to whether by accepting the proposal with the existing leaders, could Stonecutters face the same fate as Ashlar is now?

Thats the 50 million dollar question. Whilst the GM, is a great bloke i, along with those I play with, are unsure as to whether a GM who came from Parramatta Golf Club to a club in dire dire financial difficulty is the one that can manage the new course and club. Parramatta is a nice course and is very friendlly etc but a 9 holer social golf club as opposed to a multi million dollar brand new golf course with the potential to reap a massive windfall in corporate and social golf groups if done right.......i am not so sure. At least with 2 seats on the board the UPL/Medalist ring ins will be able to add some much needed advice and experience which hopefully will make the place a winner for everyone.

[Not so Big Easy]

Whilst yes Craig, the Secretary Manager (or whatever the title is) seems nice enough, I don't believe his experience and creditentials put him in good position to lead this multi million dollar, mutli facility organisation. However my concern does not necessarily lie solely with him, who are the other members of the committee, that are playing a part in this venture? What are their skills and experience? Are these people perhaps some of the cause as to why Ashlar is in the current financial situation? I don't want to sound like I'm accusing them of creating this financial hole, however one has to ask what steps have they taken to get us out of the financial hole.

[Scottt]

What did he do before he was at Parra GC though? You can't judge a bloke solely on what his last gig was.

[3oneday]

Are they allowed to take their pokies with them ? No club survives on fees and meat raffles.

[Not so Big Easy]

What did he do before he was at Parra GC though? You can't judge a bloke solely on what his last gig was.

I couldn't agree more. Maybe he does have experience in sports / leisure facilities management or something that will serve best with a facility like Stonecutters has planned. Then again, I wouldn't have thought that you'd head to Parramatta GC as a promotion from something resembling Stonecutters? Parramatta GC to Ashlar GC seems like a plausible promotion.

To be quite honest though, I feel the communciation may go through him between UPL and Ashlar but would've thought all incoming communication would be put on the committee's table to discuss. Its all people in involved I am more interested in, not just one person, unless of course, they have the final say.

[WeekendHacker]

The decision making and negotiations are being done by the club board as a whole not just Craig.

I don't think anyone is judging on where he came from but as pointed out by Easy, from Parra to Ashlar is a good promotion but to what Stonecutters will be witout a good grounding in promotion and marketing it may be a little bit of a stretch. I don't think the corporate golf organised at Parra or Ashlar is anything like what will need to be done at the new course. Maybe they need to employ the services of a good marketing person or organisation to help with this over the first few years. Certainly would be money well spent and would certainly be recouped without a problem. Spend $150K on a good wiz to sit over the top of the whole thing and then have Craig as the Director of Golf or something like that.

Are they allowed to take their pokies with them ? No club survives on fees and meat raffles.

Pokies are being moved to the new place with a special dispensation from the gaming board to keep all of the current licences intact. If you move a premise more than 5kms then you lose a percentage of your poker machine licences as the licences are tied to an address not a person. The gaming board has agreed to allow us to take all of the licences to the new premise which is at least one good thing.

At the end of the day Stonecutters will need to be treated as a serious business and not just as a hobby which is what it is now and has been for sometime at Ashlar. Using the excuse that "we have no main road frontage so people do not know we are there" is a pretty crap statement to make ad if the finger was removed and some serious action was taken we would be in a uch better position now than we actually are.

[Scottt]

I don't think anyone is judging on where he came from but as pointed out by Easy, from Parra to Ashlar is a good promotion but to what Stonecutters will be witout a good grounding in promotion and marketing it may be a little bit of a stretch.

Does he not have a good grounding in marketing?

[3oneday]

Stonecutters will sell itself the first 12 to 18 months, it'll be after that when the novelty value wears off that will be the test.

[Not so Big Easy]

Does any of the board have experience in marketing? or even business management of this scale?

Perhaps in addition to WeekendHacker's suggestion of a marketing person or organisation, we may need a financial controller to ensure Stonecutters keeps its head above water.

[Scottt]

Perhaps you need to find out what skills your leadership does and doesn't have before you question their ability to run Stonecutters (if the vote ever happens and manages to get the 75% required).

Not being narky, I just think you owe it to them to find out what they have to offer before you question their abilities on a public forum.

We seem to have picked up a few newies through this thread, so it's obviously getting some hits. Empty accusations and claims don't help anyone.

[Grunt]

Is Troon involve at all with StoneCutters? I read an interesting article with the CEO of Troon recently. He said that here in Australia we don't pay enough for Golf and they were going to try and change that fact.