NSW GC vs Barnbougle Dunes

[BrisVegas]

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on these two courses.

I recently played NSW for the first time after hearing great things about it for years. I must say that I was a touch underwhelmed by NSW first outing. I'd like to play it again to see if I missed anything. I think there are a few holes that are quite blind or deceptive from the tee, the first time you play. Once you've played them you know where/how to play it off the tee second time around, which makes them pretty easy holes. I think it's a course that I could probably play to handicap on most days now that I know where to hit it, so I don't think it's overly difficult from the members tees. Things that impressed me about NSW were:-

1. the greens.
2. the elevation changes and drama this adds to a few holes.

I've played Barnbougle a few times now and i really rate it. I think there are only a couple of holes which are a little "blind", but even once you know what's coming, those holes don't get any easier. Eg. 3, 4, 9, 16, 18. The sense I got from Barnbougle is that it is "bigger" and more "honest" than NSW. There weren't really any mickey mouse holes that disappointed. Things that stand out to me about Barnbougle:

1. Good short holes (4 interesting par 3's and two excellent short par 4's)
4. Playability and fairness in all conditions

Both course have a lot of exposure to the wind and have appropriately wide fairways and greens. Both courses have birdie opportunities if you execute the risk/reward shots properly. Both courses require some thought and placement to hold greens and/or avoid the bunkering and swales.

Overall, I'd rate Barnbougle as a touch better overall, due to it's consistency and strong set of short holes. If Barnbougle had NSW's green surfaces and the drama of holes like 5 & 6 at NSW, it'd be the complete package.

[scarfie1]

Nice review Brisvegas. I'm yet to play either of them but I'm really keen to play Barnbougle. I've played links courses in NZ and I loved them, such a different experience to a parkland course.

[TS]

Dion. With such high praise for BV, I guess I need to make an effect to go there next April.

[BrisVegas]

I'm looking forward to playing Magenta in that case. I'd like to play NSW again, for sure. There are a few holes I'd play differently. The first for starters. It's short enough to have a go at the green. Otherwise, lay back with a 5 iron. Much like the 4th & 12th at Barnbougle.

[BrisVegas]

G69 - do you reckon the 5th is a good hole at NSW ?

My opinion is that it's a little "over the top". We only had a 2-3 club wind in our faces, but I can't see how anyone could get it over the hill from the plates. agave was saying to me that he plays it quite regularly and he just bunts a mid-iron to the bottom of the hill most times, as it's pointless trying to take it on.

[mikezone13]

Its a spectaculer hole for sure..but hardly a great design.
I reckon its easily gettable over the hill from the plates with no wind...but how often is no wind going to happen ?

True, true and true... the 5th can play drive and chip, drive and a wedge or drive, 3 wood, 8 iron.

NSW is a true test and there's never NO wind, just differing amounts of wind. I'm hoping for not much this coming Tuesday as I've played there only once with a light breeze and every other time in between large gusts and gale force.

[Andrew]

In this day and age very few people walk a course before they play it, but it is the greatest way to see the architecture of a course.

Dion, your struggle to know where to hit the ball has blinded you to some of the subtlety of the course. I’m not meaning to offend you, as it’s the same for everyone. Our time is limited, so our first viewing is when we play the course & we want to play as well as possible.

Don’t be too concerned about ranking one course over the other, especially when they are that close. I know this is ironic coming from a former ranking panellist, but it will only diminish one of them in your own mind & I believe they are both great courses.

The greatness of NSW is found in its routing. The par 3’s face north, south, east & west, as do the par 5’s. Apperly’s ability to find & include holes like the 6th & 14th in his re-routing of Mackenzie’s initial work, sets the course above most in Australia.

NSW has a greater variety of green sites than Barnbougle Dunes. Most Dunes courses have a similar set up for their green sites, with the greatest examples being seen on the west coast of Ireland. The routing, & therefore the green sites, are mostly dictated by the dunes, which makes it impractical to set greens on top of dunes or to route holes over & across dunes like NSW does.

The great attribute Barnbougles Dunes has for an Australian course, is that it is a true links in a country that has very few links courses. NSW is not a links course. The other great attribute is the use of Fescue from tee through green, giving it a wonderful traditional feel.

In regards to difficulty, I consider NSW to be the more difficult from day to day & much of this is due to its routings & greens. BD will render more triple & quadruple bogies, but NSW will wear you down. The bunkering at BD is more spectacular than NSW, but not more effective. This seems to be the way with modern links courses, but I believe Doak’s bunkering at Pacific Dunes to be better.

I don’t actually believe either course has a complete set of 1 shot holes. As NSW 2nd green has been poorly reworked from the original, BD 16th green is poorly staged for it’s setting, I assume to allow the 17th to be where it is.

The 5th at NSW is hard to comment on until you have faced all the different breezes. Like Mike says, it can play like a par 6 or a par 4. I’m not a long hitter & I’ve had a wedge for my 2nd a couple of times, yet at other times I have hit two good shots & still needed a 4 iron from a downhill lie for my 3rd. Unfortunately, people don’t like that sort of variation these days, but it’s what the traditions of golf were built on.

Now, this is the hypocrisy part. I know I started by saying not to rank courses so close together, but, I rank NSW at #2 in Australia ahead of Kingston Heath & I rank BD at #4. My reasoning: I prefer a woman who keeps some subtle mystery about her to allow the excitement to continue 20, 30 & 40 years into the relationship.

[TS]

Andrew. Which course do you think is the best in OZ?

[Andrew]

Royal Melbourne West

[kpac]

#3??

[kpac]

Also Andrew, (i haven't played either of these courses yet, but am fortunatelly bound for BD) but with barnbougle being a fairly current course, do you believe it has the potential to 'age' into a better course. It seems that course when first done, usually hit it off in the way of rankings then slowly drop down, untill they age and start to rise throught the rankings... Is this assumption correct and inturn do you think there's the possibility of australia top courses, changing in the near future??

[TS]

#3??

KH

[BrisVegas]

In this day and age very few people walk a course before they play it, but it is the greatest way to see the architecture of a course.

Dion, your struggle to know where to hit the ball has blinded you to some of the subtlety of the course. I’m not meaning to offend you, as it’s the same for everyone. Our time is limited, so our first viewing is when we play the course & we want to play as well as possible.

Yes, you're right. Good point. If I'd had the chance to walk the course first, several of the holes would be much simpler. I made sure I looked back from the greens to see where how the holes were supposed to be played. You'd think the tight bastards I was playing skins against would tell me where to hit it.

In regards to difficulty, I consider NSW to be the more difficult from day to day & much of this is due to its routings & greens.

I'll take your word for it, as I have only played NSW once. I can't imagine getting into MORE trouble at subsequent outings though. I know where all the trouble is at BD and yet I still get sucked into finding it. That's one thing I look for in a course design, ie. the temptation makes you try silly things.

I don’t actually believe either course has a complete set of 1 shot holes. As NSW 2nd green has been poorly reworked from the original, BD 16th green is poorly staged for it’s setting, I assume to allow the 17th to be where it is.

Agree with you there. I couldn't find much to like about the 2nd. Not only was the intervening ground from tee to green totally hidden, but there didn't seem to be a playable bailout area. Come to think of it, 2,11,17 were all semi-blind holes. I don't know if that's meant to be a positive feature or not, but it made judging distance more difficult. I LOVED the 6th hole. From out on the back tee I hit a pure 4 iron to about 10 feet and was very excited by the surroundings. I love a challenge, and holding that wind with a draw shot was pretty cool. The other tee wasn't so spectacular and I managed to flub a 7 iron on from there.

The 16th is a funny hole. It's like it could have been so much more, given the scale of dunes in the area. As it is, I don't mind it, but it's a bit one-dimensional compared to the other 3.

So, RM #1, NSW #2, KH #3 and BD at #4. I can't wait to check out Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath now.

Andrew - were you able to get the April 5-6 Barnbougle trip into your plans? It'd be good to catch up.

[Andrew]

Also Andrew, (i haven't played either of these courses yet, but am fortunatelly bound for BD) but with barnbougle being a fairly current course, do you believe it has the potential to 'age' into a better course. It seems that course when first done, usually hit it off in the way of rankings then slowly drop down, untill they age and start to rise throught the rankings... Is this assumption correct and inturn do you think there's the possibility of australia top courses, changing in the near future??

Firstly, Kingston Heath is #3 in my books, although others would swap them.

I don’t believe BD will age into a ‘better’ course, as I think it’s a pretty good course at the moment. The anomaly regarding courses that open with a bang & fade to a whimper is more to do with marketing. Coming from SE Queensland, you have probably played Hope Island. It’s a perfect example of marketing based rankings, as it opened in the top 10, but has probably found its rightful position now. To juxtapose that, National (Moonah) has remained well regarded from opening to today because it is an excellent course.

I see no reason why BD would slip down the rankings, because it incorporates excellent design on a great site. It is one of the best new courses built in the world in the last 15 years.

Will there be a change of the top courses in the near future? We don’t have the money or the land to build many courses like this. The Americans have built Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Friars Head, Bandon Dunes all in the last 13 years, but that won’t happen in Australia & St Andrews Beach is proof of that.

[BrisVegas]

speaking of which. How does St Andrews Beach stack up? I've seen neither the Gunnamatta nor Fingal courses, but there's been a lot of hype around Doak's involvement. Can visitors get on them?

[TS]

..and while were throwing numbers up Andrew...where does Magenta fit into the NSW list ?

In 90s for the Top 100 in NSW, couple place behind Mac Grange.

[Andrew]

Agree with you there. I couldn't find much to like about the 2nd. Not only was the intervening ground from tee to green totally hidden, but there didn't seem to be a playable bailout area. Come to think of it, 2,11,17 were all semi-blind holes. I don't know if that's meant to be a positive feature or not, but it made judging distance more difficult. I LOVED the 6th hole. From out on the back tee I hit a pure 4 iron to about 10 feet and was very excited by the surroundings. I love a challenge, and holding that wind with a draw shot was pretty cool. The other tee wasn't so spectacular and I managed to flub a 7 iron on from there.

Deception is the greatest weapon of the architect.

I am extremely blessed to play Swinley Forest every time I’m in London. My rounds there count well into double figures & I know where to hit the ball, but still there is a couple of holes where Harry Colt deceives me very time. I’m not ashamed, as I believe Colt to be the greatest of all architects, but deception is a part of GCA going back to all those architects who studied TOC.

If you have a scorecard & feel the breeze, why should judging the distance be that difficult? It shouldn’t be, but a great architect will play with your mind.

Yes, it looks like I'll be there April 5-6.

St Andrews Beach is not that hard to get on at the moment. Only the Gunnamatta is completed at this stage & no one is sure whether the Fingal will ever get built. I quite like the Gunnamatta as it has a natural feel to it, being very much my sort of golf course.

[Andrew]

..and while were throwing numbers up Andrew...where does Magenta fit into the NSW list ?

#4 in NSW. I think I placed it behind Royal Sydney, but those two will probably swap in a few years.

[Andrew]

So whats #2 ?

1. NSW
2. ?
3. RSGC
4. MS

The 11th best course in the country, smartarse!

[Moe Norman]

I haven't played Barny yet, off in May for a game - looking forward to it.

I'll be very pleased if it stacks up against some of the links courses I've played in the UK, and also pleased if it stacks up against KH and NSW.

I too was underwhelmed by NSW on my first visit, I haven't played it again but I did go out and walk it last time I was in Sydney. As Andrew said, you see alot more when you're not worrying about your golf ball. It's very subtle and I've never heard it described as easy. As far as I'm aware, they never grew the rough and left it in 'members' shape when it hosted the PGA for 4 years and I recall one year where only one player was under Par and can't recall a winning score better than -9 with most of the field generally being over par.

My initial criticism was 'what would it be without the views?' then I simply realised that, it would still be pretty bloody good and the views simply enhance it. I would consider it easily more spectacular than Pebble Beach, and a better overall golf course too.

The 5th and 6th are quite spectacular, and surely the 5th would be one of the most unique holes on Australia given its elasticity?

The 2 shortest Par 3's have very elevated greens, making them very exposed to the wind - which is another great feature of the routing.

I still have it at #3 behind RM and KH myself, but only because I'm a fan of the dramatic sandbelt bunkering. NSW is probably the most unique course I have played, which is what I liked most about it. Just has so many features blended into the one site, that you would be unlikely to see anywhere else.

[Moe Norman]

speaking of which. How does St Andrews Beach stack up? I've seen neither the Gunnamatta nor Fingal courses, but there's been a lot of hype around Doak's involvement. Can visitors get on them?

Has some sensational holes and a few not so good, depending on who you speak to, which # holes are good and which are bad varies greatly. I think this is actually one of the great things about the course actually, it certainly stirs debate.

My own opinion is that its ranked about 8th to maybe 12th at worst, I think that those that haven't played much golf in the UK, may not appreciate it as much as those that have.

I think holes 2,8,13 and 18 are absolute rippers, while 14, 16 and 17 aren't that flash. It's very 'different' to most courses built recently in Australia and not just because it has a par of 70, is less than 6000m and is run by crooks!

[Jono]

My guess is The Australian.

Hey Andrew, any chance you can use your status to get a game at Ellerston? The ex-owner of Advantage Custom Clubmakers got on because his son knew James Packer.

[Andrew]

I wasn't intending to be a smartarse (for once).
I don't have the top 50 courses etched in my head....I always thought after NSW there was an equal pack chasing including Aussie, Lakes and RS.
Don't make me go to the other site to track down this list.

Newcastle. It has always been ranked around 11 or 12 for years now and since people woke up to the failings of The Aus, Lakes & RS, it has been ranked well above them.

[Andrew]

...oh shit i forgot all about newcy....no wonder you fired up.

That's all right. We are quite happy to be forgotten.

[BrisVegas]

My initial criticism was 'what would it be without the views?' then I simply realised that, it would still be pretty bloody good and the views simply enhance it. I would consider it easily more spectacular than Pebble Beach, and a better overall golf course too.

Woah! That's a big call. I think I'd give the "spectacular" nod to Pebble. Sure, it has some weak parkland style holes away from the coast, but 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,17,18 are a pretty amazing group of holes. I'd probably agree with you about NSW being a better overall course. It's not as one-dimensional and there would be more subtlely about the greens and the types of shots you can play into them.

Pebble is not your typical links coure by any means. The narrow fairways and tiny greens make it a challenge in the wind, perhaps unfairly so. The rough when I played was brutal. Thankfylly Pebble is pretty short, so you can play it fairly conservatively off the tee to try and stay in the short grass.