Stacking and Tilting

[Jono]

I know Ducky is doing it ... Anyone else using or trying to learn the Stack and Tilt swing? What's the best way to learn this swing? Any teachers in Australia that are teaching it?

I might give it a go ...

[Eag's]

Jono, you are swinging the club great at the moment mate don't go messing with
swing changes
Just work hard on your putting and you will be sweet

Me on the other hand

[Johnny Canuck]

sounds too out there for me. i have always been a firm believer in working with what you have and only making minor adjustments. by the looks of your handicap jono, i wouldn't be stacking and tilting anything other than poker chips and beer.

[markTHEblake]

By the looks of the Magenta Shores pics, Jarro has got one going.

Or Eag's has one leg shorter than the other.

Oh, and the best golfer at my club (+2) has been doing this for years, his backswing is like Jim Furyk , weighs about 75kg and hits the ball as long as anyone, carries it 260-270m every time.

[AndyP]

Just work hard on your putting and you will be sweet

There's not much wrong with Jono's putting except his fear and hate of it.

[Eag's]

There's not much wrong with Jono's putting except his fear and hate of it.

Yes I know, saw it first hand myself

[goughy]

I've tried it for what it's worth. But only getting out once a month isn't enough to really work on it. But I like the idea of it. Simple swing in my mind. And I love the short backswing.

[mikezone13]

I find all this talk of Jono's putting quite laughable... ok I did see him 4 putt from about 2m at Newcastle and have seen a few short ones missed but who hasn't missed a short one before?

A couple of times I've played with Jono his putting has been really solid and he didn't look like missing much... just let it be more natural mate and it'll come.

[Jarro]

S & T looks a little Edwinesque to me

[Jono]

I find all this talk of Jono's putting quite laughable... ok I did see him 4 putt from about 2m at Newcastle and have seen a few short ones missed but who hasn't missed a short one before?

A couple of times I've played with Jono his putting has been really solid and he didn't look like missing much... just let it be more natural mate and it'll come.

Thanks, Mike. I'm not too bad with shortish putts (although I do miss more than my share ... ). My real problem is the lag putts. Most of my 3 putts (and 4 putts) come from my inability to consistently get the first putt within the 3 foot circle. Heck, I'd be happy with a 5 foot circle. While I do need to work on reading the greens, what I really need to work on is getting the feel of the speed and distance. Thing I've been working on is looking at the hole more than looking at the ball. Trying to feel like I'm rolling the ball to the hole with my right hand. At Mac Grange, my lag putts were so bad that I started looking at the hole whilst I made the stroke. This of course caused me to miss the sweetspot a few times, but it led to a more natural action and I actually made a long putt. Needless to say, more work needed in this area.

Now, back to stacking and tilting ...

[Jono]

S & T looks a little Edwinesque to me

Edwin stacks but he doesn't seem to tilt?

[goughy]

I've got the golf digest issue with the full article, break down of badds swing, explaination of the swing and the different feelings of the different positions. And also some practise techniques.

I used it to best effect when I played at nudgee this year. Was probably the best I've struck the ball for a while. Especially with my irons. But I've always had a problem with flatish shoulders and a bit of a tilt. I used to have a tendence to get on my toes a bit through impact and a bit lifted. For me, the key has been straightening my right leg during my backswing and the shorter backswing. At nudgee, I lost that a bit through the middle of the round and my ballstriking suffered. I think I was 1 over through the first 7 and came home strong too.

But the shorter backswing (I think of only taking it back till the club is pointing straight at the sky: that's my swing thought, I'm sure it goes further) and the straight leg are my swing thoughts for this.

I am also in the process of editing the footage I have of the us open with badds and tiger in the final round. I'm trying to cut the footage down to just tiger and badds. If I ever get this done (been working on it for several months now!!! ) you're welcome to a copy. I just wanted a copy of the swing to watch as a refresher.

[Jono]

Thanks, Goughy. I would love a copy of the Badds sequence.

I've got the Golf Digest article as well and that's what I'm using to try to learn this swing. I love the feel of the "crushing the coke can" move.

[Jarro]

Edwin stacks but he doesn't seem to tilt?

So what benefit does tilting give you ??

I'm watching Badds swing on GolfDigest now, and it's VERY similar to Brad Lambs swing on Gary Edwins site

I'd love to see both swings side-by-side.

[Jono]

I'd love to see both swings side-by-side.

Why don't you do some video editing and show us?

I don't know whether I'm right or not, but the key difference (for me, at least) is the feeling that with S&T, right hip is HIGHER than the left at the top of the backswing. From here, I feel like I can really swing the club DOWN and through the ball, starting with the "crush the coke can" move with the left foot. With Edwin method, the rotation is more horizontal where the left and right hips stay more level with each other at the top. So for someone like me who is not that strong, I feel I can get a bit more clubhead speed with the S&T method.

[Jono]

Jarro, here's a side by side comparison of Edwin swing and Stack & Tilt swing. I think this guy is more representative of S&T teaching than Badds. You can see the difference. Whilst both swings have more weight on the left side at the top than conventional teaching, with S&T method, you get the feeling of the whole body tilting to the left. On the other hand, Edwin method has the upper body tilting very much to the right. The weight on the left foot is achieved more by moving the hips and the arse to the left.



The following diagram shows the difference in spine tilt at the top.



Most modern teachers like the look of the spine tilting to the right at the top, but S&T method shows that a more vertical spine at the top is very workable. As their Golf Digest article shows, it FEELS like you are tilting to the left. The end result is a more vertical spine with perhaps a slight tilt to the right.

[Jono]

Following Youtube clip of the Edwin method shows this level turning of the hips (ie. "the shimmy"). Pause around 1:43 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bGvhVNdMXE

[goughy]

You gotta say jarro - my ball striking at nudgee was pretty darn good for me in the first 8 holes and the last 5. Probably my best driving for a long time, and pretty shmik irons.

My biggest problem has been over swinging the backswing. When I do this the whole s & t breaks down for me.

I can't say I've put much effort into trying this. But I feel many of the positions feel natural to me. Of course, I haven't been to a practice range this year so I only try this out during my games, which are about once a month. But I like it, and the look of the swing.

[Jarro]

Thanks for the still shots Jono, i can really see where the S&T does infact get the spine a lot more vertical at the top of the swing.

I liked the Edwin swing for a while and couldn't for the life of me work out why ??? Now i know that it was because a lot of the weight was always on the left foot, thereby making it a lot easier to get through the shot better .... transferring my weight more efficiantly.

The S&T swing looks pretty much the same in that regard, so i imagine if you're having trouble getting your weight back on your left foot at impact, this swing would greatly benefit you also.

Goughy, i did notice a improvement in your ballstriking last time we played .... you think this swing was the main reason ?

[Eag's]

The whole S&T swing looks very simple and it does make sense even though it goes against most modern day teachings. I did give this a go on a few shots the last social hit I had and must admit, it felt real solid and easy to repeat

[Iain]

So for someone like me who is not that strong, I feel I can get a bit more clubhead speed with the S&T method.

It might be more to do with the fact that because you are hitting down on the ball better, with more forward shaft lean, thereby getting the better result.

[goughy]

The S&T swing looks pretty much the same in that regard, so i imagine if you're having trouble getting your weight back on your left foot at impact, this swing would greatly benefit you also.

Goughy, i did notice a improvement in your ballstriking last time we played .... you think this swing was the main reason ?

That's probably why I like it. I have always struggled with transfering my weight with the 'proper' golf swing. And for a while I was very much a back foot player. I loved leaving much of the weight on my left foot.

I don't know if it was the swing or not. It was only the 2nd time I'd tried it, but I think both my scores were ok'ish. But don't forget, I'm full of shite so take everything I say with a grain of salt (about the size of Ayers Rock)

[Iain]

That's probably why I like it. I have always struggled with transfering my weight with the 'proper' golf swing. And for a while I was very much a back foot player. I loved leaving much of the weight on my left foot.

That's why I won't bother with it.... I have no problem transferring weight, in fact I need to keep my upper body back more, as it moves forward too early in my swing.

[Jono]

It might be more to do with the fact that because you are hitting down on the ball better, with more forward shaft lean, thereby getting the better result.

My comment about more clubhead speed was comparing the S&T swing to the Edwin swing. I lost significant clubhead speed with the Edwin method, but it doesn't seem to be the case with the S&T. I can probably get more speed by shifting my weight back and forth (ie. conventional swing) but as you say, I seem to hit down on the ball better with something like S&T.

[Jono]

That's why I won't bother with it.... I have no problem transferring weight, in fact I need to keep my upper body back more, as it moves forward too early in my swing.

I would say otherwise. By keeping the weight more on the left foot, you don't have to transfer as much. It might actually cut down some of your lateral motion on the way down.