Favourite Golf Ball.

[rubin]

I was going to repond with an in depth, detailed and referenced reply - however re-reading your last few posts Puji, i realise you are either on the sauce, or have gone all "dave1" and just disregarded, ignored or misread everything everyone has said previously, so whatever response i were to give would be pointless.

The only thing that you have got right so far is finding the correct ball that fits your game/skill level.

[Johnny Canuck]

You are going to go out on a limb and agree with Puji, but you can tell the difference side by side?

Let me clarify. A few years back I hit two drives with two different balls and I felt like I caught them both exactly the same. When I got to them, one was 10+m shorter.In the course of a standard round of golf, I dont think I would notice the difference between balls. Maybe I just need to pay closer attention. However, I think we all lack the consistency to properly differentiate between golf ball distance, unless you are talking extreme distances. Maybe a scratch golfer like MT might notice a 5m more with a 9 iron, but the vast majority surely can't.

[popper81]

if we are talking shanks, I can do them as consistently as anyone - so maybe I qualify to deliver a verdict based on how far right they fly off target. smart ass.

why stop at shitty pills v proV's? I'll just tee up an orange (2 piece - soft cover and softer core) and then a brand spanking new ProV. Will there be a difference? Oh.the.suspense.

Definitely a good test. You would do well writing up a paper on a subjective test. Real well.

If your telling me you can tell the difference in distance amongst premium pills - you are lying or imagining it.

if your telling me you can tell the difference in distance betwen a premium pill and a regular pill - you will be playing off <5HCP. if >5HCP - see above. you are lying or imagining it.

If your telling me you can tell teh difference in distance between a premium pill and a "shitty pill" - please define your "shitty pill". if you mean the no name balls that come with 4 tees and an embroidered handkerchief - no shit sherlock. If your "shitty pill" is a pinnacle gold/red - see above handicap test. If your "shitty pill" is a dunlop/ - no shit sherlock.

My posts have all been based on the comments in this thread to date. often comparing Premium pills amongst themsleves or premium and regular balls. For example

Prov1/ B330/ Penta/ One Tour v E6/E7/NXT tour

I can't tell the difference - you timah! are obviously a much better ball striker than I am (even when I hit them out of the middle of the face rather than the hosel). Maybe one day, I can hit them consistently enough, stop time, and ask mother nature to keep everything balmy - then I can tell which one is actually longer.

What a load of crap.... Seriously.... I struggle to understand what you are trying to say? If I was to take 4 different premo pills out for 18 holes of golf, and hit the same club on every tee shot, you don't think a pattern would start to emerge in regards to distance, flight etc purely based on where the balls ended up.. true, that my swing is a variable, but a pattern would start to emerge in the length of balls travel from the tee, and what I have observed as a golfer....now repeat the process, but only hit a iron off the tee, hit 4 balls 20 times each, and I am sure that a sample size of 80, even with the variable of wind change, drops in temp, dodgy putting strokes and beard growth would provide enough information to clearly show that a donut v. orange v. dumbell v. cupcake ( love cupcakes, best ball to never when a major) have difference characteristics..

If you don't beleive me, send me 4 dozen premo pills, i will hit them and laser them back and see what we come up with... I am sure they will be close in distance, but this lying >5 marker will bet his bottom dollar there is a difference, and that is what you factor in.. Better still get four dozen premo pills unmarked.. I will hit wedge with them, and depending on where the land after I hit them to a green I will tell you what pill they were (I am sure I would get over 80%)... Or we can hit 7 iron from the 11th tee @ windaroo.. It will be fun

Yup. It's about "how close", not about "how far".

This is soooo true, but how can you hit it close, when you don't understand the how far part? This is the bigegst difference between pro v am... when was the last time you seen a AM fly the green on the full.... not often, and very rarely does a pro hit a good shot, into the front apron with a back pin placement, but you see Am's do it day in day out.. It has improved with gps and laser's, but being realistic with how far you hit the ball is a great way to drop shots.

I was going to repond with an in depth, detailed and referenced reply - however re-reading your last few posts Puji, i realise you are either on the sauce, or have gone all "dave1" and just disregarded, ignored or misread everything everyone has said previously, so whatever response i were to give would be pointless.

The only thing that you have got right so far is finding the correct ball that fits your game/skill level.

It concerns me we agree , but I couldn't help myself and had to respond.

[popper81]

Let me clarify. A few years back I hit two drives with two different balls and I felt like I caught them both exactly the same. When I got to them, one was 10+m shorter.In the course of a standard round of golf, I dont think I would notice the difference between balls. Maybe I just need to pay closer attention. However, I think we all lack the consistency to properly differentiate between golf ball distance, unless you are talking extreme distances. Maybe a scratch golfer like MT might notice a 5m more with a 9 iron, but the vast majority surely can't.

See, I have no idea how you play, your style etc... but you can play, scores prove it... Imagine that If you have 140yards ( thought I read you use yards :0) to a back pin, dead over the back, want to be close but not long.. What is the stick that you know you can't possibly hit any further then 140, let's say for internet sake it is 8 iron ( avg 135, crushed 140) using your preferred ball, which we call ball A... Ball B is known to be a little longer, say 5 yards. You hit a good shot with ball A, 5 yards short. of the flag...hit a good shot with ball B, over the back. Would you notice that, or put it down to another variable?


Surely everyone anyone off less than 15 has a rough idea on there upper limits on each of their clubs, if you change ball that varies, you notice and take into it into account.

[Dotty]

Puji, does the same apply to graphite shafts, and that only sub-5 handicappers can detect any difference?

Interestingly, because I don't swing fast, I am very sensitive to the balls' characteristics. Being a short driver, then extra run is an advantage for driver and fairway woods. This is then a disadvantage around the greens, as I don't get the clubhead speed and the backspin to suck-and-stop.

We also don't have a range at or near the course, so I'll often head out playing two or three balls after work (most models from pickups around the course). With the driver, there are distinct and repeatable differences in how different models get to the same point on the fairway. (I generally swing at 100% as I need all the speed that I can muster.) Softer spinnier gets the launch hieght that normally eludes me and 'feel' great, whilst rocks land short and get good run.

But if the same results came from a month of comp. rounds, it could be misinterpreted that all ball models perform the same off the driver, and that any variations were due to an 'inconsistent swing'.

Same goes for balls in the practice bag for around the green.

[Puji]

Im just talking about drivers. not irons or wedges. even a hack like me can tell the difference between a proV1 and a E6. This is what I choose my pills on - they are all long enough. an extra 5m off the tee isnt going to make any difference to my game.

As I said - this is just me.

rubin: i do admire dave1 and the effect it has on an internet forum community - so you might be onto something. But I just like getting a conversation going, and rather than just write absolute rubbish, i like to challenge what has happened in this thread for 52 pages "This ball is Loooooong".

Some people don't like being challenged. But there are others like popper who will take the time to put together a decent response - and so the whole point of a forum is achieved.

popper: your example of taking four premium pills onto the course doesn't mean anything to my argument - you are factoring in iron/putter/wedge performance I am taking about driving distance only.

If I gave you four unmarked premium pills; Hex Chrome (without the hex dimples :P), 20XI-X, ProV1 and whatever taylormades premium is (Penta?). and you hit each off the tee only for the holes you take your Driver out on - you would be able to tell me which was consistently longer than another just from the one round?

Would you have enough data to rely on and make a conclusion, confidently ruling out the other variables that were present on the day to conclude without doubt that Premium A is longer than Premium B?

A ball can feel longer, but I for one am sure that I cannot tell the difference between a ProV1/x and a 20XI-S/X.

So if you disagree with me, that is fine - you are a more talented and consistent ball striker than I am, and you seem to be able to control all the other variables that are out of your control - so mus so that you are sure that those extra 2.358 metres was because of the ball, and not just because the wind helped you out a little.

No need to get all hot under your collars.

[Johnny Canuck]

Even playing the cap I do, I don't believe I would notice 5m difference on an 8 iron. In a perfectly controlled environment, possibly.

[popper81]

.

popper: your example of taking four premium pills onto the course doesn't mean anything to my argument - you are factoring in iron/putter/wedge performance I am taking about driving distance only.

If I gave you four unmarked premium pills; Hex Chrome (without the hex dimples :P), 20XI-X, ProV1 and whatever taylormades premium is (Penta?). and you hit each off the tee only for the holes you take your Driver out on - you would be able to tell me which was consistently longer than another just from the one round?

Would you have enough data to rely on and make a conclusion, confidently ruling out the other variables that were present on the day to conclude without doubt that Premium A is longer than Premium B?

A ball can feel longer, but I for one am sure that I cannot tell the difference between a ProV1/x and a 20XI-S/X.

So if you disagree with me, that is fine - you are a more talented and consistent ball striker than I am, and you seem to be able to control all the other variables that are out of your control - so mus so that you are sure that those extra 2.358 metres was because of the ball, and not just because the wind helped you out a little.

No need to get all hot under your collars.

No one is hot under the collar mate.... i am actually sitting here whilst I write, naked as the day I was born...

My example of playing holes was purely for an example of all forms of the game. If a ball will be longer, it will be with driver or iron....

If I was to hit driver on my holes, I would be able to tell you which ball I found to be longest, shortest, and the two in between.... But as you are aware, with a small sample size, the figure can not be truly refelective or accurate. Would I have enough data from one day of hitting driver 40 times ( 10 holes x 4 balls) to 'make a conclusion, confidently ruling out the other variables that were present on the day to conclude without doubt that Premium A is longer than Premium B?' I doubt it, maybe there would be clearly a winner, and a loser, maybe not... I am sure there would be a clear trend though. I am happy to do it one day for you, and let you know though

'So if you disagree with me, that is fine - you are a more talented and consistent ball striker than I am, and you seem to be able to control all the other variables that are out of your control - so mus so that you are sure that those extra 2.358 metres was because of the ball, and not just because the wind helped you out a little.'

Nice sarcasm, very good...And maybe I am a much less talented ball striker, but a much more astute student of my own abilities, or lack of.

[rubin]

a few things to note.

if you have a driver SS of 105mph +, you will not notice much difference (if any) in terms of distance from a driver tee shot when comparing pro v1 to pro v1x, or 20XI s, to 20XI x etc. That has been posted a number of times previously. The manufacturers and ball engineers have stated this fact so many times themselves in their own data and marketing that its a moot point. Most have even come out and said that in terms of their premium balls, you may not even notice much going from brand to brand. You have that small part correct - may have been helpful to everyone if you posted that originally though.

There are exceptions to this (as Johnny Canuck posted earlier, the original Z-star was to low compression for those of us with faster swing speeds and spun up waaaayyyy to much, thereby reducing distance. It comes back to a physics and also an economics theory called diminishing returns.)

However, with a lesser swing speed - you will notice. Simply because, as you put before, the compression rates of these balls is different.

Now, the major factor in how the balls work is not off the driver. Companies design balls from the green back to the tee (the same way you should approach a hole on course), and as such, the significant differences will be from your irons, because unless you are a gorilla or a long drive champ, your probably not going to swing most of your irons above 100mph (sure, maybe your 3 or 4 iron might, but that’s another story). What it comes down to is the force required to 'activate' the core, thereby ensuring the ball operates as efficiently and effectively as it was designed to be. Pro’s now look for a ball in the following order:
Putter, Wedge play, short irons, long irons, FW’s, Driver.

The second factor is spin rates. Again, going back to the dimishing returns, there is a point at each SS/ball speed where it spins to much and distance will be lost. Obviously, the reverse is true as well. this is going to be the factor that is the most dependant on swing characteristics. I.e the more you hit down on the ball, the more spin you will generate.

So - lets assume that a golfer with a Driver SS of 105mph, hits down on a mid range compression ball. This would be an average club golfer. they might generate (for the sake of the argument) 3500 rpm. FWIW, a mid range compression ball = Tour B330 or similar. Still quality pills. If they go to a higher compression ball (i.e Pro V1X), and removing any other factor involved, the spin rate will drop (lets say to 3000 rpm), the ball won't balloon as much, and they will gain distance, flatter trajectory etc, etc. if they go to a lower compression ball (eg Pro V1), the spin rate will increase (say 4000 rpm) and they will lose distance. It may be small, possibly even only a meter or 2, but it will be there. The reasoning for this, is there are a number of aerodynamic principals, resistances etc.

That is for an average S/Speed. The effect of the spin rates etc is amplified exponentially with a higher ss.

Yes, there are a number of other factors involved, and if you really want me to, I can go into further detail.

At the end of the day however, Popper is correct. If you hit 20 balls of one type, and 20 of another, the pattern (data) will be available for you to see as well.

So in part Puji, yes you are correct, in other parts – a long long way off.

[rubin]

BTW - i have more, and whilst it may sound a bit contradictory in parts, it isn't.

[wizard_of_oz]

I tend to agree that a lot of the perceived distance is placebo effect. Strictly talking about distance here, not "FEEL", not spin around the greens, not "compression", not "softness". Most can "feel" the difference between hitting a rock and a softer ball, what is debatable is this: will one be able to tell that a ball consistently travels 5-10 metres further when comparing an apple to an apple, premium ball? I for one, very much doubt it.
WHY? Go hit your driver on the range which has the same crappy golf ball over and over again with your driver. Is it landing on the exact spot each time and rolling our the exact distance? Clearly the answer is no, otherwise you'd be hitting 100% fairways and 100% GIR. Since you aren't able to replicate with absolute precision on a driving range, which has far less variables then an actual golf course, you guys are trying to tell me that you can tell if it goes 5-10 metres further SOLELY on your golf ball? Damn, marketing really does work.

[gazgolf1]

the original Z-star was to low compression for those of us with faster swing speeds and spun up waaaayyyy to much, thereby reducing distance. It comes back to a physics and also an economics theory called diminishing returns.)
However, with a lesser swing speed - you will notice. Simply because, as you put before, the compression rates of these balls is different.

This was what I was originally saying in my post. I know around Nudgee GC when I'm hitting my drives and a ball is consistently short, as happened when I tried the original Z-Star. Of course I'm going to take into account course conditions etc but as a average length hitter (some would say short) 10-15m with my driver is a big deal to me, coupla clubs difference.
I can pretty much hit every fairway at Nudgee in a round (they don't call me the tampon for nuthin ) and then miss every green so the choice of ball is important to me to get me down the fairway and then get up and down when I miss the green.
As I said I can tell when a ball is short.

[oncewasagolfer]

Used a white z star today for the first time in a few years and had my worst score in the last couple of years hoping it wasn't the ball as I have six dozen to get through

[Puji]

popper: I understand what you are saying, and take note of it. I think I may be a little jealous that I can't infact notice. Moving forward, I think I will start to pay more attention to the ball, other than around the greens.

rubin: I agree with you on all points, and understand the relationship between swing speed, compression and spin rates on a balls performance. It is a really interesting task that manufacturers have to balance materials, construction and price when they create balls. I do not have an engineering background, but I do have a scientific mind, and believe that I have the capacity to understand fluid dynamics to an extent to apply to golf and understand. However, I do have a background in economics/finance and statistics. I have previously worked for companies building models for tests and situations which contain many, uncontrollable variables.

What I know and learn can be applied here; and going back to my original posts; if I was to construct a model based on a talented golfer (7 - 15 handicap); the ball would have a small statistical significance when compared with the other variables that would be present. That is my contention and my sole argument. We can sit here and argue about tee to green or green to tee all day

A few points:

- I never said that distance was the main motivator behind golf ball manufacture. My discussion has always focussed on our ability to determine whether a golf ball is longer/shorter by our own experiences.

- I never contended that spin rates/ durability/ whiteness/ dimple pattern etc determine distance/ performance/ premium-ness or otherwise. I have always just been interested in ball vs distance off the tee with a driver (higher swing speeds).

I need not say anymore as it seems we all understand that amongst similar balls which "fit" our game (correct compression, covers and the like) it is going to be difficult to notice any difference in distance. Whether a manufacturer cares, admits or markets this is not really important to me. I was just amused/ curious as to those who claim a ProV1 is longer than a Z-Star or vice versa.

[Irongrass]

Hey Oncewasagolfer, I have a similar problem... Aside from being a bit of a hacker (although slowly getting better...) I have recently (and naively) purchased a couple of dozen Wilson Boost Extreme Distance balls.... Yes, it could be "all in my head" but I'm sure that distance off of the tee is shorter.... I'm really new to golf (although I did bash a ball around 23 years ago), but is this ball crapp or what? A mate of mine reckons that they're useful for bashing around the paddock, and not on a golf course....

[dave1]

I have been a staunch pro V1x user for quite a while

till a mate chucked me a half dozen srixon Z star XV - love em, its still soft enough to be good around the greens but goes 10 meters further with driver and it holds well in the wind (less spin will dot that)

just ordered some mints of squizzy - play a better ball

[Jarro]

I have been a staunch pro V1x user for quite a while

till a mate chucked me a half dozen srixon Z star XV - love em, its still soft enough to be good around the greens but goes 10 meters further with driver and it holds well in the wind (less spin will dot that)

just ordered some mints of squizzy - play a better ball

That's a pretty big increase distance wise

I found the ProV1X to be an awesome ball into the wind.

[razaar]

A mate who is a low marker only plays used balls, usually Precept ladies/ laddies. His lowest lofted club is a 56 SW. I have tried for years to change his ball to the Premium model, but he doesn't like the spin/stop these balls produce. I have always admired his short game, which doesn't rely on the golf ball. I am sure he would laugh at some of the posts in this thread. I guess if a player has talent he can get by with anything.

[Webster]

razaar, I agree a lot with your friends approach if thats what works best for his game. I still see a lot of mid and high handicappers ploughing away with the lob wedge and Pro V1 with limited success. Ego is a dangerous thing.

[Johnny Canuck]

I have quite often though I might score better with an nxt style ball. I should really try it out.

[dave1]

Our club pro uses nxt tours

[dave1]

That's a pretty big increase distance wise I found the ProV1X to be an awesome ball into the wind.

My ss of 95 with driver isnt compressing a pro v1 x enough

[rubin]

My ss of 95 with driver isnt compressing a pro v1 x enough

If thats the case, then u wouldnt compress an xv at all. The xv's are harder than a pro v1x.

Sure the tee's just havent been forward?

[simmsy]

I have quite often though I might score better with an nxt style ball. I should really try it out.

Hocko has been using an nxt, I think the tour one and loves it. Just to bring spin down.

[razaar]

My understanding of the ball laws is that the higher compression a ball has, the faster it will rebound off the clubface which relates to distance. Distance and control depends the length of time the ball remains on the clubface. This is why a slightly closed face striking a ball on an in to out swing path will always travel further than a square to square contact. The ball gets trapped, by only a fraction of a second, which is enough to make a difference. It is all about the quality of the strike that makes the golf ball perform. A player who plays his irons with a simultaneous ball and ground contact will never experience the satisfaction of seeing his ball carry the full distance and stop. All present day golf balls will do this if the player is talented enough.