Handicap system disadvantages low markers?

[BobsYourUncle]

Following on from the success of the par format thread, does the current handicap system disproportionately favour high handicappers?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/features...w-handicappers

It is very rare that an A grader wins an open comp at one of my clubs... we have a Wednesday mug once a month that goes to the best stableford score across all grades - usually won by a C or B grader with 42+ points. When I was back in Adelaide, my club there had a Thursday "player of the month" that was given to the best stableford score - that was impossible to win against the B & C grades with their 45 points.

But even if that is the case, can anything be done? 1v1 the handicap system is reasonably equitable, but the spread of scores is way higher in higher grades.

Does stroke format help? Is it just a stableford problem? Or is there no problem and it's just low markers whinging?

[markTHEblake]

Following on from the success of the par format thread, does the current handicap system disproportionately favour high handicappers?

No. They have done the math on millions of rounds that are in the database possibly hundreds of millions. Over time there has been a few articles written how they came up with the conclusions.

Or is there no problem and it's just low markers whinging?

Yes. low markers are whinging.

[3Puttpete]

Following on from the success of the par format thread, does the current handicap system disproportionately favour high handicappers?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/features...w-handicappers

It is very rare that an A grader wins an open comp at one of my clubs... we have a Wednesday mug once a month that goes to the best stableford score across all grades - usually won by a C or B grader with 42+ points. When I was back in Adelaide, my club there had a Thursday "player of the month" that was given to the best stableford score - that was impossible to win against the B & C grades with their 45 points.

But even if that is the case, can anything be done? 1v1 the handicap system is reasonably equitable, but the spread of scores is way higher in higher grades.

Does stroke format help? Is it just a stableford problem? Or is there no problem and it's just low markers whinging?

How many B and C graders are club champs?

[Dotty]

On the non-peak days, our club runs a medley stableford comp., split into 2 divisions (somewhere around 16-18 mark).

A couple of times, I've been sitting at 7th-8th outright, but that was good enough for 1st place in division 1.

[PerryGroves]

I will be crying as many tears for low markers as I will for the next diatribe from Gerry Harvey on how he's been hard done by.

In your singular example, low markers are probably disadvantaged, but when you collect the scratch or an NTP remember that there's some dude off 34 complaining about how his comp fee funds low markers.

[Kelsey86]

There's a bunch of stats on the GA app about this exact topic. It pretty much says that everyone has a reasonably equal chance of winning regardless of handicap. In a field of 100 for example the percentage chance of winning hovers around 1.3-1.5% for all. Finishing in the top 5%, 10% and 20% of the field is more likely for lower markers according to their stats.

I have noticed a few winners at my club lately with 42+ point scores who are higher markers, but I don't know if they are newer members whose handicaps haven't "settled" yet. I don't recognise the names so they may well be.

[jimandr]

Three things.

There are many more high markers than there are low markers. Put 100 scratch markers in a field together, and one of them will shoot 8 under. But there aren't that many low markers in club fields. Listen to the low markers at your club complain about having to compete with 12 markers in A Grade.

Which leads to point 2. There is simply more room for variation the higher the handicap. The high marker has a day where he holes two bunker shots, and that might be 4 shots saved right there, because he normally takes two to get out, or three putts a lot. Generally, the guys I speak to who have had a great score always say it was due to the putts going in 'for once'. The low marker doesn't really have that leeway.

Point 3 is a bit more suspicious. Sometimes people blow out their handicaps because of injury or other less honest reasons, or they are new players who improve rapidly, but we only see the low score, not the reason behind it. And there are simply the fluke rounds where every shot into the trees rebounds onto the fairway, and shots are saved rather than thrown away. It happens.

Golf isn't so important that we should worry about things like this.

[petethepilot]

This graph came from one of the big USA stats guy….seems to indicate it is much harder to go really low as an A grader than as a C grader. As an example, my lowest ever round, 65 off the stick (off white markers) on a Par 72 (129 slope) course got me third in the daily comp! I was off scratch then so 43 points and got beaten by a 25 marker with 45 points and a 16 marker with 44 points. Lots of satisfaction and $40 for winning A grade.

[marcel]

………. and $40 for winning A grade.

No wonder you were able to retire so young

[petethepilot]

No wonder you were able to retire so young

Helped by a working wife!

[Hatchman]

It’s not a Hcp system issue.
It’s just a weight of numbers in the higher Grades and the amount of shots they have to play with when things go right on the day.

[LeftyHoges]

Put 100 scratch markers in a field together, and one of them will shoot 8 under.

LOL, no they ****ing will not.

[3Puttpete]

LOL, no they ****ing will not.

Not with that attitude they won’t.

[LeftyHoges]

Not with that attitude they won’t.

Very good.

[petethepilot]

It’s not a Hcp system issue.
It’s just a weight of numbers in the higher Grades and the amount of shots they have to play with when things go right on the day.

The only thing that needs to go right for a high marker is to keep it safe tee to green and don’t 3 putt much. An A grader needs to make lots of putts as well as hitting it close. I have been off 5 handicap or less since I was 14 (47 years ago) and I can count my rounds of 43 points or more on 1 hand.

[3Puttpete]

The only thing that needs to go right for a high marker is to keep it safe tee to green and don’t 3 putt much.

Nailed it.

2 fairways, 2 greens, 2 chips closer than normal and make 2 putts. There’s 44 points.

[LeftyHoges]

Nailed it.

2 fairways, 2 greens, 2 chips closer than normal and make 2 putts. There’s 44 points.

Or +8 in Par, but don't tell them that.

[JoeS]

I love handicap scores, even more when a 40 handicapper comes in with 45 points. Most of the time they are the same people at the back of the field carding low 20's week in and week out and still keep coming back. The low markers keep getting the pat on the back for another great score off the stickbut missing out on a daily prize by only 2 or 3 points.
2 weeks ago our Saturday comp was won with 47 points by a 19 handicap player. The round of his life. What was even better was that the top 10 all had 40 points or better, while you had to hit handicap to come in the top 37.
Thats why stroke scores are a better measure of true golf.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[sms316]

How many B and C graders are club champs?

I will be crying as many tears for low markers as I will for the next diatribe from Gerry Harvey on how he's been hard done by.

In your singular example, low markers are probably disadvantaged, but when you collect the scratch or an NTP remember that there's some dude off 34 complaining about how his comp fee funds low markers.

Maybe the choppers should acquaint themselves with the practice facilities?

[PerryGroves]

Maybe the choppers should acquaint themselves with the practice facilities?

Sounds fun, get down there, hang out with blokes discussing covers for their alignment sticks and wondering if their 28 year old mate who's off +1 will make it as a pro.

[LeftyHoges]

Sounds fun, get down there, hang out with blokes discussing covers for their alignment sticks and wondering if their 28 year old mate who's off +1 will make it as a pro.

The only people I've ever heard wondering if a 28-year old +1 marker will make it as a pro ARE the C graders...

[JoeS]

I got beaten today, playing par. 25 handicap with +6, a 28 handicap with +5, and I was playing off 5 and had +4. I actually parred the course but you don't get extra pluses for an eagle. Couldn't have wiped the smile from their face, which is what handicap golf is about.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[rickie prowler]

I love handicap scores, even more when a 40 handicapper comes in with 45 points. Most of the time they are the same people at the back of the field carding low 20's week in and week out and still keep coming back. The low markers keep getting the pat on the back for another great score off the stickbut missing out on a daily prize by only 2 or 3 points. 2 weeks ago our Saturday comp was won with 47 points by a 19 handicap player. The round of his life. What was even better was that the top 10 all had 40 points or better, while you had to hit handicap to come in the top 37. Thats why stroke scores are a better measure of true golf.Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

That's pretty well summed un there Joe. Every dog should have his day... even if he is off 25

[virge666]

It’s not a Hcp system issue.
It’s just a weight of numbers in the higher Grades and the amount of shots they have to play with when things go right on the day.

Bollocks. Utter Bollocks. Find a guy in here off 2 or below and see how many times he has 40+ points a year.

The only thing that needs to go right for a high marker is to keep it safe tee to green and don’t 3 putt much. An A grader needs to make lots of putts as well as hitting it close. I have been off 5 handicap or less since I was 14 (47 years ago) and I can count my rounds of 43 points or more on 1 hand.

Exactly - and dont get me started on Handicap Matchplay - that is a fking joke. Played on the weekend and gave 20 strokes and he had 2 shots on a 125m Par3.

Maybe the choppers should acquaint themselves with the practice facilities?

Harsh.. but fair

Sounds fun, get down there, hang out with blokes discussing covers for their alignment sticks and wondering if their 28 year old mate who's off +1 will make it as a pro.

Usually it is what they last watch on Social media and how changing one small thing and they hit it so much better.. off mats, after 20 shots warming up, that bounce and are perfectly level.. sigh.

That's pretty well summed un there Joe. Every dog should have his day... even if he is off 25

Agree - but as long as i dont have to compete against them.

....

Now i am very biased here as there are only 4-6 players in our club that can win scratch.. so they lowered the prize to about 2 economy golf balls. Which means the $80 in prize usually goes to some 12-14 marker who shot 43 with 2 wipes.

Also couple of years back, i shot 6 under and 7 under off the stick in consecutive weekends.. to come 3rd and 2nd. But on the bright side... i did get 2 x Srixon soft feels each week for my effort.

Those that complain about low markers are usually choppers who dont put the effort in, and those who complain about high markers wonder why they put the effort in.

(off my soap box now)

[Johnny Canuck]

Bollocks. Utter Bollocks. Find a guy in here off 2 or below and see how many times he has 40+ points a year.



Exactly - and dont get me started on Handicap Matchplay - that is a fking joke. Played on the weekend and gave 20 strokes and he had 2 shots on a 125m Par3.



Harsh.. but fair



Usually it is what they last watch on Social media and how changing one small thing and they hit it so much better.. off mats, after 20 shots warming up, that bounce and are perfectly level.. sigh.



Agree - but as long as i dont have to compete against them.

....

Now i am very biased here as there are only 4-6 players in our club that can win scratch.. so they lowered the prize to about 2 economy golf balls. Which means the $80 in prize usually goes to some 12-14 marker who shot 43 with 2 wipes.

Also couple of years back, i shot 6 under and 7 under off the stick in consecutive weekends.. to come 3rd and 2nd. But on the bright side... i did get 2 x Srixon soft feels each week for my effort.

Those that complain about low markers are usually choppers who dont put the effort in, and those who complain about high markers wonder why they put the effort in.

(off my soap box now)

A few years back we were eliminated from the pairs match play semis when a 28 capper had 2 for 5 points on the 17th then 2 for 5 points on the 3rd playoff hole.

The club I play at now does 3/4 handicaps for match play, which I like.