Rakes in Bunkers - Moving Forward

[BUSHY]

Yes bunkers are a hazard.

No, “playing it as it lies” shouldn’t include having to try and get the ball out of a massive footprint that Joe the Plumber made because he wes too lazy to put down his beer to use the rake.

Why? Not fair?

[AndyP]

Why? Not fair?

No, it's not. And it's more likely on a course with a large amount of social golfers.

[thecollective]

[Johnny Canuck]

Why? Not fair?

If I wanted to, I could use it as a strategy.

Go in a bunker, dig my feet in, make an almighty mess of it, leave it unraked to hurt the chances of anyone playing in the field behind me.

Sounds like this is acceptable to some.

[thecollective]

If I wanted to, I could use it as a strategy.

Go in a bunker, dig my feet in, make an almighty mess of it, leave it unraked to hurt the chances of anyone playing in the field behind me.

Sounds like this is acceptable to some.

It is to most social golfers on public courses, because they don't understand that golf is not just about me but everyone else playing the course. It's not a malice thing; just ignorance

Same goes for players who are overly precious about lies in bunkers. Too much emphasis on me and my poor situation and not enough on the big picture of golf

[BUSHY]

No, it's not. And it's more likely on a course with a large amount of social golfers.

What’s fair?

Plugged lie in a perfectly raked bunker?

Hit a mound that kicked the ball right instead of left?

Ball grabbed when you thought it was gonna skid?

Lip outs?

Some takes:

“Perhaps their biggest misinterpretation of the game is that it should be “fair” despite the best courses in the world being somewhat “unfair”.

Has anyone who has ever studied the Old Course ever thought of it as anything but what many would describe as “unfair”? The great challenge of the game is dealing with its inherent unfairness.

Golf was, unsurprisingly, invented in Scotland because hitting a ball with a stick across the broken crumpled dune land linking the sea to the farmland beyond made perfect sense. With no equipment capable of moving soil in any great amounts the early golfers played across the ground as it was, making uneven lies, blind shots and hazards in the direct line to the hole a part of the game’s fabric.”


“What changed was the introduction of the concept of “fairness” and the idea formulated primarily by Americans and adopted largely by Australians (and most others) that you had to be able to see where you were going. The notion of the “blind shot” was seen as somehow silly, poor design and something to be avoided by course architects at all costs.

Bunkers in the middle of fairways came to be viewed as poor hazards catching “perfect” drives. Yet if the measure of a perfect shot is its position in relation to the one following how could a drive into a bunker possibly be seen as perfect?”


“Jack Nicklaus once answered a reporter sympathising with him over a particularly bad bounce and the unfairness of it by saying: “Yes, it was unfair, but the game isn’t supposed to be fair.”

[Johnny Canuck]

It is to most social golfers on public courses, because they don't understand that golf is not just about me but everyone else playing the course. It's not a malice thing; just ignorance

Same goes for players who are overly precious about lies in bunkers. Too much emphasis on me and my poor situation and not enough on the big picture of golf

When it is controllable, people should all get play course in a similar condition.

One person shouldn’t be disadvantaged by the ignorance of others.

Having to potentially take an unplayable because you are in someone’s footprint is just plain stupid.

I even see it in some comps, when all the bunkers have been raked beforehand and there has been no public through the course.

Ultimately, that’s an issue that the club needs to deal with.

[thecollective]

Ultimately, that’s an issue that the club needs to deal with.

The club will never win that battle, even at the top tier clubs members still make the same mistakes, but once again not out of malice, just plain ignorance. Same goes for slow play and all the other BS that I could bark on about for hours on end.

So many ppl are not enjoying the game as much as they should because they worry about their stupid score. Preferred lies at the essence boils down to score and self actualisation.

[AndyP]

What’s fair?

Plugged lie in a perfectly raked bunker?

Hit a mound that kicked the ball right instead of left?

Ball grabbed when you thought it was gonna skid?

Lip outs?

Embedded lie through the green.

Spike marks on greens.

Casual water.

There seems to be some exceptions.

[thecollective]

Embedded lie through the green.

Spike marks on greens.

Casual water.

There seems to be some exceptions.

They are not in a hazard though Andy. And its not particularly fun playing a ball in water

[Dotty]

When it is controllable, people should all get play course in a similar condition.

One person shouldn’t be disadvantaged by the ignorance of others.

Having to potentially take an unplayable because you are in someone’s footprint is just plain stupid.

I even see it in some comps, when all the bunkers have been raked beforehand and there has been no public through the course.

Ultimately, that’s an issue that the club needs to deal with.

My previous club had course staff prepare the course for the Wednesday afternoon field, with bunker preparation and leaf blowers during the morning field play in the same competition.

On top of the unfairness, noise and waiting to play shots (which slowed play), it was a big drain on the budget.

Ironically, the pampered afternoon field didn't feel there was a need to personally rake bunkers or repair pitch marks.

[BUSHY]

To that point on score TC I read this in the same article.


Geoff Ogilvy argues: “Golf is much more fun when you don’t have to score – we do it because we have to, but I’m not sure why people find the need to count all their shots every time they play. It’s not really what the game is about.”

I understand there’s this desire to “Golflink everything” but I just don’t get it.

[AndyP]

They are not in a hazard though Andy. And its not particularly fun playing a ball in water

Bushy's post wasn't talking about fairness in hazard only.

I've played clubs that have a local rule about kangaroo footprints in bunkers. I assume that your opinion would be to abolish this local rule also?

[Jazz18]

In QLD it’s not Golf Australia’s call. Likely similar elsewhere.

Under current QLD laws the golf club must conform with two (2) Industry Covid-19 Safe Plans.

The Industry COVID Safe Plan for Queensland Hotels and Clubs and the Industry COVID Safe Plan for Outdoor Team Sports.

Ok, health depts made the rules but you would think Golf Australia would be more proactive in having the game return to normal universally across the country rather than individual clubs doing whatever they want, like the OP's club.

This discussion wouldn't even be happening if it wasn't for COVID. Before COVID, no one would have considered permanent preferred lies in bunkers, it's just an absurd suggestion, given the most basic rule of golf is play it as it lies.

[Jazz18]

To that point on score TC I read this in the same article.


Geoff Ogilvy argues: “Golf is much more fun when you don’t have to score – we do it because we have to, but I’m not sure why people find the need to count all their shots every time they play. It’s not really what the game is about.”

I understand there’s this desire to “Golflink everything” but I just don’t get it.

And I also agree with the point that golf isn't just about the score and there is too much focus on it sometimes

[Captain Nemo]

**** the score, I just play to get out of the house and enjoy the sunshine and company, lose money to the old ****s with high well maintained handicaps and then have a cold beer or 4 after, couldn’t give a **** about my score!

[3Puttpete]

My only issue with the discussion is with those who say preferred lies should go and rakes should come back. I assume they also think each player should rake the bunker perfectly when they’re done so the next person has a good lie.

I get the impression most people don’t see bunkers as hazards but a different surface where they still expect good lies and relatively easy shots. If they were dried out ponds or creek beds nobody would expect the surface to have been prepared for them.

FWIW I don’t much care what happens. If I’m in a bunker I’ll keep chopping away until I wipe the hole or, in a stroke round, eventually get out.

[Captain Nemo]

I find a lot of bunkers, in fact most holes, and do take great care in raking them, in fact probably too much care.
Maybe cause I’m anal or play with committee guys, but do like fresh raked sand....

[ParkRoyal]

With sand and bunkers being so different from course to course getting a consistent approach is probably impossible.

Maybe a free preferred lie drop if its clear that you're in a footprint or divot or something could work? You're more likely to end up in these spots due to the nature of a lot bunkers feeding a similiar area so some leeway could be given.

Weirdly I've found a lot of public courses seem to have bunkers where if you go in them and they are unraked the lie is still usually ok, might be something to do with less sand used or something else.

[markTHEblake]

No, “playing it as it lies” shouldn’t include having to try and get the ball out of a massive footprint that Joe the Plumber made because he wes too lazy to put down his beer to use the rake.

This ^^^^.

Recently played at Hope Island in the seniors OOM. The local rules showed preferred lie in bunkers. The host club announced before play, "bunkers are fine, the have been raked, play as it lies"

It was probably true that they were raked, but my guess 3 days ago at best, and following a weekend full of nuffies as above. Condition of bunkers was nothing short of disgraceful, I was lucky but in my group the others had several unplayables. I dont think anyone on the day thought this is how golf should be played.

[aussieashley]

With no rakes and preferred lies in bunkers have the “play it as it lies” guys been not taking a preferred lie in a bunker?

[Jazz18]

With no rakes and preferred lies in bunkers have the “play it as it lies” guys been not taking a preferred lie in a bunker?

Of course, we're playing to the rules. But what does that have to do with having preferred lies in bunkers permanently?

Yes, a shit lie in a bunker because some muppet hasn't raked it properly is crap, but at the end of the day, if you don't want a shit lie in a bunker, don't hit it in the bunker.

Yes, clubs should do more to educate members about proper course care on the course as a whole, not just bunkers (so everyone has close to the same playing conditions through the field) but at the end of the day, a bunker is a hazard. If you don't like your lie (as the case would be in most cases in a regular penalty area - ie hazard) take an unplayable.

[markTHEblake]

Jazz, where do you play most of your golf?

[Jazz18]

Jazz, where do you play most of your golf?

Twin Creeks and the bunkers are mostly shite! Some are in play, some are not. No rakes and preferred lies ATM but as you can see, I firmly think they should be put back.

Most of the bunkers were ruined in the rain at the start of last year and for the most part, still haven't been repaired due to funds/insurance claims etc.

[3Puttpete]

With no rakes and preferred lies in bunkers have the “play it as it lies” guys been not taking a preferred lie in a bunker?

Yep and I take a drop from divots in fairways because thinking a rule should change is the same as ignoring them.