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  1. #1
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    Default Apprenticeship advice for older bastards

    Right. So in short I am over 40 and the Financial Planning industry is forcing us to do 4 years of full time study. First off...I am not aruguing about the fact Planners should have a higher level of minimim requirements. They/We totally should. I think they have gone a bit far in forcing it to be effectively a Bachelor's, but hey thats their call. I am not in a position to be able to commit to 4 years of full time study, on top of full time work, family etc. I have tried by doing my normal 40 hours CPD over the last few weeks...and ti just isn't going to happen...for that and many other reasons (and to be fair I won't be the only one as around 50% of planners I have spoken to are in the process of leaving as well).

    Will I be able to survive on Apprenticeship wages? I can..it will be tough and several years of "no fun". I mean golf will probably have to be given a wide berth etc...but that's life.

    But I have tried contacting several Apprenticeship companies both locally and state based. They are ****ing useless. I mean borderline incompetent. No advice...nothing.

    This is all pretty daunting....so how the hell do I go about this??

    Do I just start walking into businesses again like I did when I was 17? Resumes? Is there anyone who has had anything to do with this sort of thing for "older" apprentices.

    Having worked in offices my whole life I have realised, I really need to get out of them. I need something new to sort me out. The idea of starting from scratch is something that sort of appeals to me. Any suggestions on where the hell to start???

  2. #2
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    Jeeze, I don't envy you. I haven't had an apprentice in more than a decade now as all I could find were completely useless and nearly sent me broke trying (was just myself and the apprentice). They were of little help back then. I think some of these places actually employ the apprentice themselves, and I guess are then contracting them to you. They probably take a lot of the benefits.

    I was 25 when I started my apprenticeship, and the income do was enough of a bit back then. Would hate to do it now. But while an apprenticeship is a job, I like to think that it is actually a course (like going to uni), cept you get paid to learn. Sure, not much to start with. Do you have any clue what field you'd like to try? My first day I was pulling a chair apart with a flat head screwdriver. My FIL asked my why I wasn't using the cordless drill, and I told him I didn't know how to use one!
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by goughy View Post
    Jeeze, I don't envy you....... But while an apprenticeship is a job, I like to think that it is actually a course (like going to uni), cept you get paid to learn. Sure, not much to start with. Do you have any clue what field you'd like to try? My first day I was pulling a chair apart with a flat head screwdriver. My FIL asked my why I wasn't using the cordless drill, and I told him I didn't know how to use one!
    Yeh its not ideal, but at some point I just have to make the call. The current job has been driving me mad, its causing me massive stress and its just not good for me physical/mentally. So this is kind of the kick I need...maybe.

    I agree, its more of a way to learn and get small payments. Its also learning with hands on experience which I benefit from WAY more than reading article after article. Some people do the study and can do it well. I struggle with it.

    As far as what would I like to do...well to be honest something that has an early start would be nearly perfect for me. I am awake by 4am every morning. I have considered something like a Baker. Greenskeeper (not limited to Golf but sports fields etc etc) or even Cabinetry could be a go.

    I have pretty much decided Mechanic is probably not the best fit for me. My brain just struggles with understanding that type of stuff. That would also be the biggest thing holding me back on the Greenskeeper side of things as I assume there would be a fair amount of mechanical knowledge for the equipment, sort of like a farmer.

    I do like the idea of Horticulture/Woodwork/Cooking area. I think something like that I could sink my teeth into. But honestly if I have to do 4 years of study...the options are pretty open.

    As you mentioned most Apprentices I employed where useless and when I had my own business the mature age apprentice was the only one that was worth while. If they still had the further incentives for mature age apprentices I reckon I would be in with a shot somewhere...hoping the Age helps with employers...

    I am glad you mentioned that anecdote….I have no idea on where to start with any of the things listed....I could help them run their books at the time I suppose

  4. #4
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    I did a mature age Electrical apprenticeship after leaving the Army. I actually did some FIFO mining and construction work in between the Army and the apprenticeship.

    I consider myself pretty lucky to have done it in a state owned utility because it pays better and the conditions are very good. I canít comment on private industry.

    It did feel daunting at the time because I had commitments like a mortgage, first baby on the way etc etc but my wife and I made some minor sacrifices for a few years until I was on 80-90% of a tradesman wage (end of 2nd and 3rd year).

    Now 10 years on it was a great decision, Iíve moved up within the business and havenít been on the tools for a while. I may have gone backwards financially for a few years but in the end it was a good choice for me.

    Hope that helps.

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    Baking is shite , I have two nephews who are qualified green keepers and if they can do anyone can wages arenít great , plumbing, electrical carpentry would be my picks . Havenít met a mechanic who hasnít got a bad back . What about buying a small business

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    Can't tell you where to start, but I know two people (besides Bushy) who did mature-age apprenticeships. Both did electrical and both are now killing it (one in his own business and the other working for a big company maintaining signals on the Sydney train network).
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  7. #7
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    Ok, some serious thoughts!

    Don't know what state you're in, but find out what is the relevant body overseeing apprenticeships and have a chat to them. Find out from them if there are any extra benefits or subsidies to employers who put on mature aged apprentices. Also find out what the percentage pay is per year, and if it differs for mature agreed apprentices. When I did it out was 40%, 50%, 75%, then 90% of the trade award in your final year.

    Also ask them if there are any field where apprentices are in short supply. In the past the have been extra subsidies for putting apprentices on in fields with a shortage. Also find out of the is any off site training required, where it has to be done, when, and how much it will cost.

    Know everything before you approach an employer, making their job easier! They'll also take you more seriously if you've prepared all this in advance.

    My trade is dying but I wouldn't ever put an apprentice on again. Not really set up for it anyway. I think I've had one enquiry in the last 10 years. Can't even do your offsite training in Queensland any more! TAFE have closed their upholstery department and the private certifier has closed. A company two told me apprentices now have to go to Sydney for their training!!!! Bugger that. I'll have to settle for being the last one left in town one day.

    Maybe consider something that you can do for yourself one day?
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  8. #8
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    Those companies that run apprentices and place them will like to say they are making the employers life easier. But I reckon sell yourself. I was always a fan of the drive-by. It's how I got most of my jobs. And maybe someone could point you to someone who is employing.
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  9. #9
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    Thanks for all the info guys.

    Buying a business....been there, done that..other half would kill me. I put a LOT of time into it last time.

    The Baker and Greenskeeper would both suit my sleep patterns....but as pointed out there are major cons there.

    Carpenter and Sparky where on top of the list (don't know why I never listed Sparky before) mainly because I have mates in both industries so getting help and asking questions would be doable. Plumbing is an option but locally the choices for Sparky and Carpenter are definitely higher.

    The companies that hire apprentices OUT to companies is all we really have locally, and I think that is why I am getting no interest from them. I reckon I will be updating my resume over the weekend, printing and presenting in a simple plastic folder and knocking on some doors over the next few weeks.

    Thankfully we sold the other house after just moving, so that will take care of that loan with not much spare. But it reduces expenses by over $1,500 a month. The other halfs wage will cover monthly expenses and if I am out of work for a few months we save an extra $400 a month on child care....so we can do it. Its just not ideal.

    Ah well..fingers crossed.....time to start hunting.

    Thanks for the advice and info guys...gives me somewhere to start and a different way to think than how I was.

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    Best of luck mate!! With an attitude like that I wouldnít be too concerned.

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    Good luck Slothy.




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    Hairdressing?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Hairdressing?
    First client?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Hairdressing?
    Now that is a role that would fit hey. Just like they say a mechanics own car never runs.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothman View Post
    Now that is a role that would fit hey. Just like they say a mechanics own car never runs.....
    then you should be an awesome hair "stylist"

    Good luck mate with finding the next career move.... i too have considered it but could not think of where I would look at too....

  16. #16
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    If you want coin become a turdologist ! Pulling turds Is the highest paid trade in Oz! And they are crying out for decent workers! Go to tafe collect 2k in completing the adult pre apprentice course and bingo!
    show commitment!

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    Good luck, Slothman.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothman View Post
    Now that is a role that would fit hey. Just like they say a mechanics own car never runs.....
    The mechanical equivalent to you being a hair dresser would be a mechanic that didnít own a car.




  19. #19

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    My advice would be to cold call golf courses and leave a resume. Also look out for groundsman roles, as you do all the mundane stuff, and gives you an idea of what you will be in for during the apprenticeship. I was a mature age apprentice at 27. Did my 4 years, and been a superintendent for 16 years. Some courses may pay minimum adult wage, while others will pay the piss poor rate of 8-10 dollars per hr. One fellow I had swore black and blue he would work for the low rate, however , sure enough the snide comments would come out every now and then, that he couldnít live, btw, he was single, asking to borrow fuel to get him home and to work till pay day. As a groundsman you get minimum adult wages, and you can also ask the employer if they would put you through a cert II in horticulture
    . Good green keepers are hard to find, but generally, so are good employees. Just my thoughts . Good luck with your journey.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck View Post
    The mechanical equivalent to you being a hair dresser would be a mechanic that didn’t own a car.
    The problem with this comment is you can't argue with the truth

    So an update. I was cleaning up the resume on the weekend, looking through some job sites.

    Other half mentions a job at the local Rubbish Collection area. No Selection Criteria, a few minor pre requisites (no police record) and some "optional" that could easily be met. I have already looked up how to obtain those optionals and they are piss easy.

    9 days on a 2 week rotation (RDO's etc). Chance to get other "tickets" and licenses while on the job. Temporary one year job. But its in the city system so internal jobs that are not advertised out would be more available.

    The kicker....it pays $200 a fortnight less than my current job. And they still wonder why Financial Planners are not wanting to hang around....sheesh. They are going to lose a LOT of the planners who currently do the right thing, those currently doing the wrong thing will most likely remain, and keep doing the wrong thing. With an extra 4 years of study under the belt you would hope there would be a pay increase. That wasn't even on the table....

    So I will be finishing the cover letter tonight and getting that sent through. At least it will have me out and with a chance to look around in a local government role where there is a wide and varied job choice later. Just got get it first...LOL

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    Do current planners have to do 4 years study or is it just one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puttpete View Post
    Do current planners have to do 4 years study or is it just one?
    It depends on your previous qualifications and experience etc. Let me be very clear, I do believe the current requirements (RG146) is extremely low. Its a one year course that I knocked off in 3 months (only working part time and I just spent the rest of my time getting it done) however IMO that should be accompanied with some mentoring and supervised work for maybe a year or two. Then extra studies in fields of choice should be called for like specific SMSF, Insurance, Aged Pension, Aged Care etc etc

    We already have to do 30-40 hours of Continual Development each year to help keep up to date etc.

    But here is an example in the office I am in on how CRAZY these new requirements are.

    I have the bare minimum, so for me it was always going to be 4 years (actually lets call it 8 units). The past what...lets say 5 years I have been working in various offices under supervision...yeh that counted for nothing.

    My boss has been doing this for 20+ years, holds the CFP and sooo many other titles as well as courses etc. Honestly I would be VERY surprised if she wasn't probably one of the most knowledgeable planners around. 6 units although she is fighting this and hoping for some RPL's.

    The other director has done a degree in Business or Economics, I can't remember which....so is excluded..0 units. To be fair though he is also pretty highly qualified etc.

    The other planner has less experience than me, about the same credentials. But he has a degree in an unrelated topic (Phycology I think, don't quote me)…..6 units....yep.

    Add to this we all have to take time out of study and work to prepare for a 3 hour exam to be done next year so we can continue.....no idea about contents etc. I have been told this will need to be done each year...I find that a bit hard to believe and haven't confirmed it (not my biggest priority).

    Now on top of this we have to maintain our 40 hours of CPD points. I have not received a firm answer as to how many points the study will cover but the "going average" seems to be another 20 hours.

    My biggest gripe about all this is this will not stop the people doing the wrong thing, from continuing to do the wrong thing. So to combat that we have to do "ethics training"...and that is riveting stuff.

    So apparently I am a cheating, lying thief who needs to study more.....

    Shit...they nailed it

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothman View Post
    It depends on your previous qualifications and experience etc. Let me be very clear, I do believe the current requirements (RG146) is extremely low. Its a one year course that I knocked off in 3 months (only working part time and I just spent the rest of my time getting it done) however IMO that should be accompanied with some mentoring and supervised work for maybe a year or two. Then extra studies in fields of choice should be called for like specific SMSF, Insurance, Aged Pension, Aged Care etc etc

    We already have to do 30-40 hours of Continual Development each year to help keep up to date etc.

    But here is an example in the office I am in on how CRAZY these new requirements are.

    I have the bare minimum, so for me it was always going to be 4 years (actually lets call it 8 units). The past what...lets say 5 years I have been working in various offices under supervision...yeh that counted for nothing.

    My boss has been doing this for 20+ years, holds the CFP and sooo many other titles as well as courses etc. Honestly I would be VERY surprised if she wasn't probably one of the most knowledgeable planners around. 6 units although she is fighting this and hoping for some RPL's.

    The other director has done a degree in Business or Economics, I can't remember which....so is excluded..0 units. To be fair though he is also pretty highly qualified etc.

    The other planner has less experience than me, about the same credentials. But he has a degree in an unrelated topic (Phycology I think, don't quote me)Ö..6 units....yep.

    Add to this we all have to take time out of study and work to prepare for a 3 hour exam to be done next year so we can continue.....no idea about contents etc. I have been told this will need to be done each year...I find that a bit hard to believe and haven't confirmed it (not my biggest priority).

    Now on top of this we have to maintain our 40 hours of CPD points. I have not received a firm answer as to how many points the study will cover but the "going average" seems to be another 20 hours.

    My biggest gripe about all this is this will not stop the people doing the wrong thing, from continuing to do the wrong thing. So to combat that we have to do "ethics training"...and that is riveting stuff.

    So apparently I am a cheating, lying thief who needs to study more.....

    Shit...they nailed it
    I thought things were a bit easier for current licence holders but either way Iím not sure itís about stopping shifty planners but more about minimum standards hopefully stopping costly mistakes for clients through screw ups which can be avoided by what seems like the most basic knowledge.

  24. #24
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    Yeh look, there would be more than one reason as to why they have done it (you can add to that to make sure the public have more confidence in using a planner, minimise mistakes and a heap of other ideas). And like I mentioned I really support the increase in minimum standards. But personally I think it could have been achieved in a far more practical way that not only meets their requirements, but also achieves more of the outcomes they desire AND be more beneficial for clients.

    Here is what I believe would be a pretty good option.

    - Planners required to do a "diploma". 2 years of study broken into a 3 year period. First year is the basics. You then do a year under supervision. You then complete the 2nd year of study which covers updated regulations etc and more advanced options.
    - At this point you will have a solid core of "authorisations" allowing you to give advice on specific areas. Lets say Superannuation (minus SMSF), Personal Insurance, Centrelink specifically Aged Pension and various other "core" areas.
    - You can then choose areas and courses to broaden your knowledge. Lets say SMSF, Aged Care and Portfolio Creation using Equities. This list is not exhaustive, just an example. This adds to your list of authorised areas.
    - CPD must be done yearly and I would go as far to say that 40 hours should be the minimum broken down into 5 hours of Ethics, 10 hours of regulatory updates, 5 hours of authorised areas updates and 20 hours of product research and advice creation tactics.
    - The key though would be naming conventions. Come up with 2-3 "levels" that a planner can use and advertise as.

    I am all for the need for improvement and increasing minimums.....I am just not in a position to be able to achieve this and commit to it. There will be massive changes for planners AND customers in the years to come. Not all of them will be beneficial to the client, but I guess more changes will be made in the coming years etc etc.


 

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