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  1. #1
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    Default Thoughts on strategic golf design and long bombers on tour

    I’ve come down with the flu so can’t work, can’t golf. So what do you do other than muse about golf architecture?

    I listened to couple of Fried Egg podcasts and Andy talks about the narrowness of fairways on the tour and how boring this is to watch as it didn’t give players any options other than to aim down the middle. He made some specific criticisms of the changes at Augusta over the years.

    I sort of agree but I don’t know how wide fairways would play as the tour starts filling up with more youngsters as long as or longer than DJ, Bubba and Cameron Champ.

    These guys are long, I mean super long, with some in reserve. To give you an idea, Champ’s ball speed of 195 swinging in balance with a 44” shaft would have been competitive in World Long Dive competition 20 years ago.

    The thing that protects the shorter hitters on tour like Furyk is the narrowness of the fairways. If the fairways were wider and you let these bombers open their shoulders, I don’t think it will matter what side of the fairway they come from. Unless the greens were rock hard, they’ll be able to stop it.

    It is much harder for longer hitters to hit the fairway as the fairways are rectangular in shape, not flared like a discus/hammer throwing field. Any side spin will have magnified effect with the higher ball speed as well.

    Any thoughts? G69? Benno?

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    Unfortunately improvements in equipment have made many of the old strategic courses redundant.

    The ISG podcast last week talked about RM being a Par 67 or 68 for the pros using current gear - strategy is lost when they hit wedge or SW into every green.

    I would prefer if pro gear was wound back - balls lost 10% or 15% of distance - to allow old style courses to remain an option. Unfortunately, the current distance the bombers hit means that width can be overpowered, and the 'protect the integrity of the par of the course' way of thinking means that courses are narrowed and the strategy behind the designs is lost.

    What did we notice about Barney and Lost Farm - they were WIDE. Royal Hobart after all the tree clearing had fairways twice as wide as they once were. All three are better for the width giving options.

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    Long and narrow with thick rough actually helps the bombers because the short hitters are not flawless. They will miss fairways too and the price they will pay is even greater than a bomber missing.
    Would you rather be coming out of thick rough with a wedge or a 5i?

    Maybe a flaring of available width around a reasonable drive length that narrows the further down you go is an answer, or changing the length of the rough the further down.

    I'm pretty sure Mark Broadie had some stats that showed that bigger hitters are not missing by as much as you might think.
    Last edited by Bruce; 19th March 2019 at 09:27 AM.
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    I loved the width of Barnbougle and I think strategic courses will cater for the amateur golfers the best.

    Would love to see them wind the balls back for the pros but with possible lawsuits from ball companies, will it ever happen?

    Will it mean more penal courses like Sawgrass for the pros and wider strategic courses for the rest of us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Long and narrow with thick rough actually helps the bombers because the short hitters are not flawless. They will miss fairways too and the price they will pay is even greater than a bomber missing.Would you rather be coming out of thick rough with a wedge or a 5i?Maybe a flaring of available width around a reasonable drive length that narrows the further down you go is an answer, or changing the length of the rough the further down.I'm pretty sure Mark Broadie had some stats that showed that bigger hitters are not missing by as much as you might think.
    Interesting point although tapering fairways for long hitters seem unfair towards them too. You’d think a pro hitting 280 yards would find it easier to hit fairways than a pro hitting 330 but perhaps the modern equipment favours the faster swingers.

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    Why do we want to make pros worse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puttpete View Post
    Why do we want to make pros worse?
    Why would it make them worse?
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    Default Thoughts on strategic golf design and long bombers on tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Why would it make them worse?
    It stops them hitting the ball as far as they do now

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puttpete View Post
    It stops them hitting the ball as far as they do now
    Don't think that makes them worse, just means it doesn't go as far. The longer hitters still have the advantage, just means they have to play a bigger variety of shots, and can play the courses that challenge them because of how they were supposed to be played. Can't just carry every hazard. Not all tournaments can be width and angles, but it would be refreshing to see more of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Don't think that makes them worse, just means it doesn't go as far. The longer hitters still have the advantage, just means they have to play a bigger variety of shots, and can play the courses that challenge them because of how they were supposed to be played. Can't just carry every hazard. Not all tournaments can be width and angles, but it would be refreshing to see more of it.
    The longer hitters have an advantage now which you want to reduce. They’re all playing the same course each week. The bigger, stronger, fitter, more athletic blokes are better at it than the smaller, weaker blokes.

    It’s almost like it’s a real sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puttpete View Post
    The longer hitters have an advantage now which you want to reduce. They’re all playing the same course each week. The bigger, stronger, fitter, more athletic blokes are better at it than the smaller, weaker blokes.

    It’s almost like it’s a real sport.
    The longer hitters are going to have an advantage still you know, it's not like the shorter hitters stay the same and only the long ones lose distance. I'm pretty sure this was referencing golf course design and how they play it. The classic courses are becoming less of a challenge due to the ball going as far as it does.

    You're right though the smaller guys like Rory, JT, Francesco are all going to be left behind. Tommy, Xander, Rickie are all massive lads.
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    Mike Clayton made an interesting point that the swings current crop of juniors can develop with the forgiveness of current clubs is totally different to what he could as a junior (or something along those lines). Eg, would JT have developed a both feet off the ground swing if he had to play with persimmon driver?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Mike Clayton made an interesting point that the swings current crop of juniors can develop with the forgiveness of current clubs is totally different to what he could as a junior (or something along those lines). Eg, would JT have developed a both feet off the ground swing if he had to play with persimmon driver?
    Absolutely not, I never got to play golf using those clubs, but I know that hitting them is all about tempo, timing and fluency. A good chunk of modern day golfers wouldn't be able to hit the ball like they do now.
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    I have very little interest in what a pro golfer would or wouldn't shoot at RM, Barnbougle or TOC. They are magnificent tests of golf for all but 0.5% of the golfing population. Almost every course I love will not "challenge" a tour pro in relatively benign conditions unless its tricked up (Shinnecock)

    The sooner the USPGA/GA piss off, build their own courses, create their own rules and stop annoying the rest of us the better.

    We could have a good discussion about GCA without it resorting to how to "proof" courses from the ravages of the next tour pro that hits it 20 past Cameron Champ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    The longer hitters are going to have an advantage still you know, it's not like the shorter hitters stay the same and only the long ones lose distance. I'm pretty sure this was referencing golf course design and how they play it. The classic courses are becoming less of a challenge due to the ball going as far as it does.

    You're right though the smaller guys like Rory, JT, Francesco are all going to be left behind. Tommy, Xander, Rickie are all massive lads.
    Do you want them all follow a set shot plan around the course and shoot par?

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    The best defense against pros hitting it too long is to shorten courses, not lengthen them. It nullifies their key advantage over the shorter hitters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy View Post
    The best defense against pros hitting it too long is to shorten courses, not lengthen them. It nullifies their key advantage over the shorter hitters.
    I like this thinking

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puttpete View Post
    Do you want them all follow a set shot plan around the course and shoot par?
    Isn't that the idea of strategic golf course design? To give the players a magnitude of options to be able to play the course?

    Take it down the right side (easy option) but have a tough shot at the pin.

    Or, try play to the left side which is the tough option, but gives you a great angle to the flag and a great birdie chance.

    Go for the green and be rewarded for a good drive, penalised for a bad one. Lay up and leave a difficult birdie but a solid par chance.

    I really don't know what point you're trying to make, but the game is better when there are a variety of ways to play the course. Not just bash driver, gouge a wedge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy View Post
    The best defense against pros hitting it too long is to shorten courses, not lengthen them. It nullifies their key advantage over the shorter hitters.
    100% and many have spoken about doing this, it also plays in to making the fairways wider as well. Shorter and wider with a greater requirement of placing your tee shot.
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    Default Thoughts on strategic golf design and long bombers on tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Isn't that the idea of strategic golf course design? To give the players a magnitude of options to be able to play the course?

    Take it down the right side (easy option) but have a tough shot at the pin.

    Or, try play to the left side which is the tough option, but gives you a great angle to the flag and a great birdie chance.

    Go for the green and be rewarded for a good drive, penalised for a bad one. Lay up and leave a difficult birdie but a solid par chance.

    I really don't know what point you're trying to make, but the game is better when there are a variety of ways to play the course. Not just bash driver, gouge a wedge.
    Blokes hitting driver 350 don’t remove any options, they add one. All of the other options are still available.

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    I would love to see the pros play a course like Barnbougle though ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy View Post
    The best defense against pros hitting it too long is to shorten courses, not lengthen them. It nullifies their key advantage over the shorter hitters.
    Ogilvy mentioned something about letting the ball run more on the fairways too instead of making them soft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Ogilvy mentioned something about letting the ball run more on the fairways too instead of making them soft.
    Now you're talking my language.

    I also like the idea of pros playing with only seven clubs. Stop them being robo-pro, and make them manufacture shots to get the right distance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy View Post
    The best defense against pros hitting it too long is to shorten courses, not lengthen them. It nullifies their key advantage over the shorter hitters.
    That would make the ultimate test of golfing prowess the putt-putt course


 

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