Thoughts on strategic golf design and long bombers on tour

[Yossarian]

Have we identified the issue?

My childhood mostly.

[3Puttpete]

My childhood mostly.

You should go on Masterchef. That seems to help.

[pt73]

Major League Baseball got rid of Aluminium bats when everybody was smashing the ball out of the park!
They had 2 choices...build new much bigger ballparks that cost heaps and have the fans further away from the action; or

Return to wooden bats only! Pretty easy choice really!!!

Originally it was about tradition and maintaining a consistent equipment for a sport in which historic records are important.

Advances in aluminum bat technology lead to increase injuries that are only going to increase as the ability of the hitter increases.

[PeteyD]

Correct me if I’m wrong but was par even a thing when a lot of the old courses were designed? AFAIK they played matchplay (almost?) exclusively and par is a recent construct for tv.

The old blokes didn’t decide they should have a 4 on this hole, they just wanted to have fewer than their opponent.

Par was invented for TV to make scoring easier to understand.

[3Puttpete]

Par was invented for TV to make scoring easier to understand.

So if we ignore scores in relation to par and just count shots taken we don’t have a problem.

Sorted.

[petethepilot]

But the game is becoming dumbed down!

All the pros drive it 300+, so it just matters who hits the best wedges and putts the spotsoff it.

Pretty boring compared to great iron shots.

I defy anybody who doesn’t know current driving distances to stand behind a tee and tell you how far a drive is going.

275m looks just as far as 300m if you don’t do them side by side! It is too far to see how they finish!

[3Puttpete]

But the game is becoming dumbed down!

All the pros drive it 300+, so it just matters who hits the best wedges and putts the spotsoff it.

As opposed to who hits the best long irons and putts the spots off it. It’s not dumbed down, it’s different.

I don’t like the fact the 4 minute mile is meaningless now but I’m not asking for them to wear concrete boots.

[markTHEblake]

Correct me if I’m wrong but was par even a thing when a lot of the old courses were designed? AFAIK they played matchplay (almost?) exclusively and par is a recent construct for tv.

it was originally called Bogey, and some holes were measured in halves, like a '4.5'

The first "open championship" was played over 36 holes (3 x 12). in todays terms, that would equal a 5700 yard 18 hole course played twice, and if it was a Par 72, then winning score would have been +30 over 'par'. Prestwick now hasnt hosted the Open for nearly 100 years, yet its still hosted more than any other except St Andrews.

in golf, the 'old' courses have always become outdated as technology allowed the golf ball to go further. from the feathery to the gutta percha, then to the rubber core ball had greater impacts on the game than what we have seen today. Any golf purists arguing that the long distances of today are ruining the game are in denial, becuause the 'game' they want to preserve, already destroyed the previous 'game'. Its evolution.

[3Puttpete]

it was originally called Bogey, and some holes were measured in halves, like a '4.5'

The first "open championship" was played over 36 holes (3 x 12). in todays terms, that would equal a 5700 yard 18 hole course played twice, and if it was a Par 72, then winning score would have been +30 over 'par'. Prestwick now hasnt hosted the Open for nearly 100 years, yet its still hosted more than any other except St Andrews.

in golf, the 'old' courses have always become outdated as technology allowed the golf ball to go further. from the feathery to the gutta percha, then to the rubber core ball had greater impacts on the game than what we have seen today. Any golf purists arguing that the long distances of today are ruining the game are in denial, becuause the 'game' they want to preserve, already destroyed the previous 'game'. Its evolution.

A man after my own heart

[Jono]

it was originally called Bogey, and some holes were measured in halves, like a '4.5'The first "open championship" was played over 36 holes (3 x 12). in todays terms, that would equal a 5700 yard 18 hole course played twice, and if it was a Par 72, then winning score would have been +30 over 'par'. Prestwick now hasnt hosted the Open for nearly 100 years, yet its still hosted more than any other except St Andrews. in golf, the 'old' courses have always become outdated as technology allowed the golf ball to go further. from the feathery to the gutta percha, then to the rubber core ball had greater impacts on the game than what we have seen today. Any golf purists arguing that the long distances of today are ruining the game are in denial, becuause the 'game' they want to preserve, already destroyed the previous 'game'. Its evolution.

So just make the courses longer and longer to cater for this evolution? Or make the holes narrower and more penal to punish long but wayward drives? Or accept that drive and pitch golf is the way of the future for tour pros?As realestate prices go up and popularity of golf goes down, what’s going to fund the extra land needed for the new longer courses?

[Jono]

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[Jono]

Interesting video comparing numbers between old and new driver and ball. Distance was one thing but the old ball was much harder to control directionally as well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uMCUplptnCQ

Not saying we should go back to persimmon driver and balata ball but would love to see a made for TV tournament day once a year where the pros play with old equipment.

[AndyP]

For those arguing that the technology advancements aren't a problem, do you think that the COR limit rule should be removed?

[Jono]

I heard that the theoretical optimum launch conditions is approx 30 deg launch with close to zero spin. Impossible numbers to attain in golf but even with the COR rule, technology will take us closer and closer to the optimal launch and even with 460cc limit, drivers (and balls) will become more and more forgiving on mis hits.

[3Puttpete]

For those arguing that the technology advancements aren't a problem, do you think that the COR limit rule should be removed?

Haven’t thought about it but I’m gonna go with no

[PerryGroves]

it was originally called Bogey, and some holes were measured in halves, like a '4.5'

The first "open championship" was played over 36 holes (3 x 12). in todays terms, that would equal a 5700 yard 18 hole course played twice, and if it was a Par 72, then winning score would have been +30 over 'par'. Prestwick now hasnt hosted the Open for nearly 100 years, yet its still hosted more than any other except St Andrews.

in golf, the 'old' courses have always become outdated as technology allowed the golf ball to go further. from the feathery to the gutta percha, then to the rubber core ball had greater impacts on the game than what we have seen today. Any golf purists arguing that the long distances of today are ruining the game are in denial, becuause the 'game' they want to preserve, already destroyed the previous 'game'. Its evolution.

Not sure what courses have become outdated, most have been lengthened to accommodate the changes in distance, unfortunately the elastic is about to break.

Like AndyP points out with COR, the brakes are in place, I don't want a wind back but equally I don't want 400 yard to be the "tour" standard drive.

[3Puttpete]

Not sure what courses have become outdated, most have been lengthened to accommodate the changes in distance, unfortunately the elastic is about to break.

Like AndyP points out with COR, the brakes are in place, I don't want a wind back but equally I don't want 400 yard to be the "tour" standard drive.

Lengthened = outdated = courses not played as they “were meant to be played” (I’m still not sure what that means) is the main gripe from the go back to when I liked it but no further than I can remember because if I wasn’t around for the change the change didn’t happen crowd

[Jono]

Like AndyP points out with COR, the brakes are in place, I don't want a wind back but equally I don't want 400 yard to be the "tour" standard drive.

Even with COR limit in place, they will hit it 400.

[Minor_Threat]

Lengthened = outdated = courses not played as they “were meant to be played” (I’m still not sure what that means) is the main gripe from the go back to when I liked it but no further than I can remember because if I wasn’t around for the change the change didn’t happen crowd

It is not difficult to understand, many greens that were designed to be approached by a long iron are now redundant due to now only needing a short iron. Same for fairway bunkers etc, they are now redundant due to the distance the modern ball travels.The skill level in bombing and pitch, putt is not equivalent to golf > 20 years ago where, shaping long irons, fairway woods around a golf course, was needed for lower scores. That golf was much more entertaining also IMO.

[3Puttpete]

It is not difficult to understand, many greens that were designed to be approached by a long iron are now redundant due to now only needing a short iron. Same for fairway bunkers etc, they are now redundant due to the distance the modern ball travels.The skill level in bombing and pitch, putt is not equivalent to golf > 20 years ago where, shaping long irons, fairway woods around a golf course, was needed for lower scores. That golf was much more entertaining also IMO.

What makes them redundant? Does the ball automatically go in the hole if you hit an approach with a wedge?

Golf 20 years ago was very different from golf 20 years before that. Why was 20 years ago the sweet spot?

[AndyP]

What makes them redundant?

It's easier to hold a green with a wedge than a long iron, due to spin and angle of trajectory. If mostly wedges are hit into greens, the punishment for being off target with the preceding shot is lessened.

[Minor_Threat]

They are redundant because the green was designed for a long iron approach, therefore hitting a short iron is no challenge. The same for fairway bunkers, if you can fly over them, it is no challenge.

The step change from 40 years ago to 20 years ago was negligible, compared to now with 20 years ago.

Are you saying hitting a wedge it the same difficulty as hitting a long iron?

[3Puttpete]

It's easier to hold a green with a wedge than a long iron, due to spin and angle of trajectory. If mostly wedges are hit into greens, the punishment for being off target with the preceding shot is lessened.

It’s easier to hit it close with a wedge, so what?

That doesn’t explain how the green is redundant. Are they supposed to have at least 2 putts or the game is ruined? Birdies don’t count unless the putt is longer than 10m?

[Bruce]

Shots gained stats show average proximity to the hole is much lower with a wedge than a mid-iron which is lower than FW etc.

Proximity to hole => greater chance of holing putts.

[Bigbad]

It’s easier to hit it close with a wedge, so what?

That doesn’t explain how the green is redundant. Are they supposed to have at least 2 putts or the game is ruined? Birdies don’t count unless the putt is longer than 10m?

The way the green was designed to be played becomes redundant, just like the fairway bunkers placed at 270 yards to carry are now redundant.

I'm guessing when the hypothetical course was designed, it was done so with certain shots in mind, certain strategies to be used. When the ball flies so far off the tee, those strategies become void.

Watching people hit longer irons in to greens as they were designed is a skill that is being lost in the game. I don't think anyone here is questioning the score.