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  1. #1
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    Default State of golf coaching in Australia

    Having invested in quite a large sum of money on golf lessons this year and quite a lot of time in practice (given I work 55 hours a week in a busy ED), I must say I’ve been a little disappointed in the level of coaching in general.

    Like the thread about the Lakes golf course and course architecture, I’m hoping a teaching pro will jump in and give us his perspective.

    I have received little nuggets of information from each coach and from my home course pro, who I have regular lessons with, I am learning to play golf rather than the golf swing.

    Having said that, I’ve been left to my own devices to put the pieces together.

    Not one coach looked at my grip. I found out that I had a gap between my left thumb pad and the grip causing my left hand to move on the grip during the swing.

    No one checked any mobility restrictions I had and figure out how that may have affected my swing. For example, I tend to stop my body rotation too early in the backswing causing my arms to become disconnected from my body. I’ve been told to put a glove under my right armpit or left armpit or both, make a bigger hip turn in the backswing and just plain “don’t swing that far back”.

    Through a trainer, I found I had a big restriction in neck rotation. I could only turn my head around 45 deg. So I’ve been working on this and doing some neck stretching and mobility exercises for last few weeks. I can already see a big difference in my backswing pivot and arms are staying connected more. Tempo has naturally become more even instead to rushing the transition as my arms get disconnected.

    I don’t think golf coaches need to be physical therapists but I think they should do a rudimentary mobility screen before they start teaching the swing. Some anatomical movements in golf are close to end range for most people. These include hip internal rotation (especially the left hip for right handed golfers as we follow through), thoracic rotation, cervical rotation, and right shoulder external rotation (watch Ben Hogan during transition). These at least should be looked at.

    I think part of the reason that most coaches are “tips” based is because of the golfing public who don’t see the value in long term lessons and just want a quick fix. Compare this to something like playing a musical instrument. If you took up playing the guitar, you’d likely have weekly lessons until certain level has been attained and then still have regular catch up lessons afterwards. Why is golf any different?

    Sorry about the long rant but I’d love to see the level of coaching stepping up a level in general.

  2. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz18 View Post
    I agree that tech can be useful but in conjunction with "visual" cues. When I hit shots on a launch monitor indoors for instance, I can see all the numbers but because I'm not using one all day every day, I don't always know how that equates to ball flight on the course. I have to see the ball flight to know if I like what I'm doing. Everyone has a different visual "window" they want to hit with their shots so if you can't get the flight you want, it doesn't matter what the LM says, it's not going to help you.
    Mate, I’m not talking about indoor LM and the like.
    Real teaching pros, outside conditions.

  3. #27
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    Cool yep. That's the best combo.

  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Mate, I’m not talking about indoor LM and the like.
    Real teaching pros, outside conditions.
    In fact are you not standing indoors and hitting out to the outside range?
    That set up at The Lakes is pretty sweet. Throw the garage doors open and away you go.
    I was visiting Charles there a couple of weeks ago.

  5. #29
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    After all this rant, I think I found the right coach for me. 😉

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    Now let him know “exactly” what you want👍





  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldracer View Post
    Now let him know “exactly” what you want👍
    I sure have. 😊

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Hey man, sorry if I came across as a ungrateful know it all POS. I appreciate the tips from your experience and observations as a golfer. And I may well end up taking the KISS approach and just practice my short game. 😊
    Jono, popular golf instruction tries to simplify a discipline that is really complex. The problem is that 90+ plus percentage of golfers have inaccurate concepts about how it should all work (influenced by popular golf instruction). It is rare to find someone who can describe the micro and macro movements of an athletic golf swing in a number of ways which will click with the golfer. So that he or she get the correct concept. Once the concept is understood, it takes a couple of years at the minimum to train the body's myofacia (muscle, facia & connective tissue) to put the concepts into practice in the one second it takes to play a full shot. It helps if you can play golf regularly with elite golfers to understand the concepts. Don't expect those same elite golfers to be able to explain what they do. Most times they have been given an athletic gift at birth.
    Last edited by razaar; 15th December 2018 at 10:26 PM.

  9. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by razaar View Post
    Jono, popular golf instruction tries to simplify a discipline that is really complex. The problem is that 90+ plus percentage of golfers have inaccurate concepts about how it should all work (influenced by popular golf instruction). It is rare to find someone who can describe the micro and macro movements of an athletic golf swing in a number of ways which will click with the golfer. So that he or she get the correct concept. Once the concept is understood, it takes a couple of years at the minimum to train the body's myofacia (muscle, facia & connective tissue) to put the concepts into practice in the one second it takes to play a full shot. It helps if you can play golf regularly with elite golfers to understand the concepts. Don't expect those same elite golfers to be able to explain what they do. Most times they have been given an athletic gift at birth.
    Thanks Ray.Lot of the terms that you use I’ve heard from Kelvin Miyahira. I’ve read all his articles and had lessons with him whilst I was in Hawaii. He was the most observant man I’ve met in the field of golf swing analysis. He didn’t get bogged down by things like The Golfing Machine and traditional teaching and just described what he saw in top golfers. Unfortunately he has had a stroke and I haven’t heard from him recently.What I need now is a coach who can coach me in golf, not just the golf swing. In terms of the swing, I hit it far enough. Ive now eliminated the left side but sometimes get a blocky fade by holding it off. I want to be able to release it full and not go left.

  10. #34
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    Sorry to learn about Kelvin, Jono. His articles were a great help to me in understanding how elite players swing. That and playing with a couple of the elites regularly, allowed me to see his concepts in action.
    Not sure I follow your comments about the release. Elite golfers normal release occurs past contact where the right wrist unloads following internal rotation of the right shoulder. This is only possible if the right shoulder remains externally rotated into impact with excellent rotation of the spine/pelvic unit without moving the left shoulder forward of it's address position. In practice it is a weak feeling, where the club shaft unloads by itself with the player resisting with the arms and hands.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by razaar View Post
    Sorry to learn about Kelvin, Jono. His articles were a great help to me in understanding how elite players swing. That and playing with a couple of the elites regularly, allowed me to see his concepts in action. Not sure I follow your comments about the release. Elite golfers normal release occurs past contact where the right wrist unloads following internal rotation of the right shoulder. This is only possible if the right shoulder remains externally rotated into impact with excellent rotation of the spine/pelvic unit without moving the left shoulder forward of it's address position. In practice it is a weak feeling, where the club shaft unloads by itself with the player resisting with the arms and hands.
    😳😳😳😱😱😱





  12. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldracer View Post
    +1 I don't get it either.

    Hit the ball, chase it, hit it again!

  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by razaar View Post
    Sorry to learn about Kelvin, Jono. His articles were a great help to me in understanding how elite players swing. That and playing with a couple of the elites regularly, allowed me to see his concepts in action. Not sure I follow your comments about the release. Elite golfers normal release occurs past contact where the right wrist unloads following internal rotation of the right shoulder. This is only possible if the right shoulder remains externally rotated into impact with excellent rotation of the spine/pelvic unit without moving the left shoulder forward of it's address position. In practice it is a weak feeling, where the club shaft unloads by itself with the player resisting with the arms and hands.
    It’s funny you mention the right shoulder external rotation. The right shoulder external rotation/horizontal adduction with right scap retraction was one of the moves I practiced diligently when I was working with Kelvin. I have very limited external rotation at the shoulders (especially after the shoulder reconstruction). Trying to take it to end range external rotation caused tension and rebound internal rotation as a way for my body to preserve itself. I try to externally rotate as much as my body will let me without causing tension. As to what I meant by release, I want a release pattern where from the top of the swing, I can just let the club go without any fear of a hook. I don’t need to think about anything then. My body just reacts and does what it needs to. I’m close but not quite there yet.
    Last edited by Jono; 16th December 2018 at 03:21 PM.

  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    It’s funny you mention the right shoulder external rotation. The right shoulder external rotation/horizontal adduction with right scap retraction was one of the moves I practiced diligently when I was working with Kelvin. I have very limited external rotation at the shoulders (especially after the shoulder reconstruction). Trying to take it to end range external rotation caused tension and rebound internal rotation as a way for my body to preserve itself. I try to externally rotate as much as my body will let me without causing tension. As to what I meant by release, I want a release pattern where from the top of the swing, I can just let the club go without any fear of a hook. I don’t need to think about anything then. My body just reacts and does what it needs to. I’m close but not quite there yet.
    Keep working on the RS external rotation. I have Ramsay posture belt 2XU and work a range of exercises focusing on external rotation. Keeping the elbow inside the right hip throughout the backswing is the goal to getting in the correct position at he top. From here both forearms rotate clockwise with the spine fully twisted in a reverse C and hold this arm/hand position into impact. This is a spine driven golf swing so the spine and pelvis supply the power through rotation. Jono most of the body rotation needs to occur before impact, so it needs to be athletic.You actually had lesson with Kelvin. That is gold!
    Last edited by razaar; 16th December 2018 at 04:53 PM.

  15. #39
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    If there are coaches in Australia that are as qualified as top US coaches they certainly aren’t doing much of a job of promoting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz18 View Post
    +1 I don't get it either.Hit the ball, chase it, hit it again!
    Is way over my head as well , all I do is to start my swing by turning/rotating my left shoulder away from the ball , **** my wrists at the top , then turn back . Hit a few drives bout 230/ 240 on soft fairways on Saturday, that will do this old bloke

  17. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by razaar View Post
    Keep working on the RS external rotation. I have Ramsay posture belt 2XU and work a range of exercises focusing on external rotation. Keeping the elbow inside the right hip throughout the backswing is the goal to getting in the correct position at he top. From here both forearms rotate clockwise with the spine fully twisted in a reverse C and hold this arm/hand position into impact. This is a spine driven golf swing so the spine and pelvis supply the power through rotation. Jono most of the body rotation needs to occur before impact, so it needs to be athletic.You actually had lesson with Kelvin. That is gold!
    I actually had 2 lessons with him over two days and had dinner with him and his wife talking about golf and swing theories. Totally geeky stuff. 😂That was back in 2013. He was on the verge of claiming his status in the golf coaching world but unfortunately had the stroke.You can see some of his work being taught now by other coaches ... Lucas Wald is one although he never gives Kelvin credit. Brandel Chamblee sometimes hashes Kelvin’s stuff I don’t think he truely understands it.I first got in touch with Kelvin in 2004. He used to sell training aids called “speedchain” which I bought. I used to swing the driver around 90 mph and gradually with his training theories peaked at 120mph on the Trackman. He then went onto looking at the technique more especially that of the longer hitters like DJ and Bubba. Cameron Champ would have been a poster boy for his spine engine swing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BUSHY View Post
    If there are coaches in Australia that are as qualified as top US coaches they certainly aren’t doing much of a job of promoting it.
    I’ve seen Richard Woodhouse who probably promotes himself as well as any other coach in Oz.I’ve had a couple of lessons with Ray Hawkins at Precision Golf and really like his teaching philosophy and content. He’s going to give me a practice plan and even though he is 2+ hours drive away from me, I’m going to catch up with him at least once a month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy8 View Post
    Is way over my head as well , all I do is to start my swing by turning/rotating my left shoulder away from the ball , **** my wrists at the top , then turn back . Hit a few drives bout 230/ 240 on soft fairways on Saturday, that will do this old bloke
    If you can repeat it and you got the speed you need/want, it’s better not to think about these things ... 😉

  20. #44
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    Just swing on plane. If you’re not doing that then you’ve got no chance.

    The swing is simple but it is complicated by “swing gurus” who need to find their niche. If you’re doing something wrong, you need to do something else wrong to counteract it.

    Youre looking for something that isn’t there.
    Forum needs more banter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    I actually had 2 lessons with him over two days and had dinner with him and his wife talking about golf and swing theories. Totally geeky stuff. 😂That was back in 2013. He was on the verge of claiming his status in the golf coaching world but unfortunately had the stroke.You can see some of his work being taught now by other coaches ... Lucas Wald is one although he never gives Kelvin credit. Brandel Chamblee sometimes hashes Kelvin’s stuff I don’t think he truely understands it.I first got in touch with Kelvin in 2004. He used to sell training aids called “speedchain” which I bought. I used to swing the driver around 90 mph and gradually with his training theories peaked at 120mph on the Trackman. He then went onto looking at the technique more especially that of the longer hitters like DJ and Bubba. Cameron Champ would have been a poster boy for his spine engine swing.
    If I was looking for a swing coach my pick would be somebody who based their swing concepts on what the old teachers taught before golf became an industry. Teachers of the Bobby Jones's era including Abe Mitchell. Most of golf's important articulation of the golf swing (including Kelvin's articles) that I have read, have been described by Jones and Mitchell in their publications. Jones on a a flatter swing action with Mitchell favouring an upright swing. Having read both, I don't think that today's technique is much different to the elite players of 80 years ago. The difference IMO is in the athletism of today's elites.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  22. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sms316 View Post
    Just swing on plane. If you’re not doing that then you’ve got no chance.The swing is simple but it is complicated by “swing gurus” who need to find their niche. If you’re doing something wrong, you need to do something else wrong to counteract it.Youre looking for something that isn’t there.
    Where did you pop up from? 😂So if I’m doing something wrong, I should do something else wrong to counteract it ... hmmm ... that sounds like bandaid fix. You slice so close your stance and swing inside out. You hook so open your stance and swing outside in. That kind of advice got me shooting net 66 at Kooralbyn and nearly raising my bat at Pac Harbour two days later. Too unreliable and to be honest with you, it’s what a lot of golf teachers do in Australia. Don’t have the background knowledge and blames the student for making it too complicated.Any human movement is “simple” when you are proficient at it, be it martial arts, playing an instrument or golf.Having said all this, I don’t really feel I have to know the theory. I’m prepared to invest my money and time, I just need a coach to help me get to where I want.

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    I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying fix the first error rather than making another one to counter it. Swing the ****ing thing properly instead of looking for voodoo. I swear half the time it’s about calibrating the mind to feel what the body is actually doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sms316 View Post
    I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying fix the first error rather than making another one to counter it. Swing the ****ing thing properly instead of looking for voodoo. I swear half the time it’s about calibrating the mind to feel what the body is actually doing.
    Mate that’s what I’m trying to do. I just want someone to supervise the process in a systematic manner. Game of golf may come more naturally to someone like yourself than me. Simplifying something that is not simple, and golf swing is not simple because if it was, everyone would be swinging it well, doesn’t make the process simpler.It’s pretty simple. Here’s my money. I’m willing to put in the time. I’m willing to get back to fundamentals and take one step back to take two forward. Help me get to where I want to go. Is that so hard to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sms316 View Post
    Just swing on plane. If you’re not doing that then you’ve got no chance.The swing is simple but it is complicated by “swing gurus” who need to find their niche. If you’re doing something wrong, you need to do something else wrong to counteract it.Youre looking for something that isn’t there.
    Coach I go to is big on being on plane . ( which I am not quite). Also reckons I subconsciously know I am in wrong position on way down and make moves to correct ( which is two wrongs to make a right )doesn’t always work . We just work on removing faults and staying in correct position to swing on plane .

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    If you want to work on flexibility, find yourself a TPI certified physio.

    I went to one a few months ago, it was quite good.

    I wouldn’t let him touch my swing, but it showed me what exercises i needed to do to be able to get into the correct position for a solid swing.

    I am no lesson guru; I average about 2 every 3 years, but I go and see one of the best in Aus. He works with what I bring to the table and doesn’t work on my flexibility, etc.

    You coach someone where they are, not where they should be.





 

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