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Thread: Ask Mac

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    I agree..
    Ours is currently 16 due to the new holes being built , but if you ask the majority of the members it’s enough, and it’s only 3.5 hrs max to play!
    Plus the missus doesn’t know so that’s another 2 tallboys I can drink before I get home!
    This is exactly my thinking pattern, sign me up!

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    Big fan of Fried Egg!
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Can I email OCCM and ask...?
    I’d really appreciate if I could get a copy?
    Sure.

  4. #29
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    thecollective

    Re RA.

    The short answer is if you looked at MacKenzie's plan his vision was not circular bunkers - rather something more spectacular and in line with what we did.
    In retrospect we should never have done that hole first - but it was the one the club wanted to do because it was one of the remaining greens they needed to reconstruct.
    A good lesson.

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    Mac,
    I'm a member at Southern GC in Melbourne, can you please head over there and fix the green on the first. It is nothing short of a disgrace.

    Thanks in advance.

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyJuzzy View Post
    Mac,

    It’s so great to read your responses here. Listening to what you have to say is always fascinating. Do you think a Sweetens Cove-type course would work in Australia given the smaller golfing population and market? If so, would that be a project that would interest you? And if so, where do you think it should/could be built? Sweetens Cove looks bloody amazing; it’s SO COOL what Rob Collins and his team have done there. A great, very creative golf facility accessible to pretty much anyone and everyone.

    Also, pretty much same questions as above:
    I’d love to see what you, Geoff and OCCM could conjure if you were to design and build something like Zac Blair’s The Buck Club. A project where you could create anything you wanted without being answerable to a committee or members or a developer. Would that look much different to the work you’ve already done?
    Thanks Mac.
    Would a great but out-of-the-way 9-hole public course work? Maybe - it'd have to be great though because of the perception here golf isn'r real unless it's 18 holes. Geoff and I played Frankston GC today - a real 9-hole hidden gem and it works with 300 members. I think it'd work as a public course as well.

    Buck Club? How many clubs work here with a joining fee above $15,000 - unless its in Sydney? They work in US because there is way more money there and an expectation $100k plus joining fees are normal I've heard of $750k and $1m. It's a way different market.

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    Probably a slightly odd question, but how much consideration regarding hole re-design is dictated by the existing grass type used in the fairways?

    The reason I ask is that my local course (country track) has kikuyu fairways, which makes any type of low running shot almost impossible to perform with any degree of confidence. In windy conditions, which is most of the time, this is a bit of a bugger. I have recently been playing in Ireland and Scotland, and have found that the range of shot options is far greater as the predominant fairway grasses allow for either higher shots onto the actual green or low runners that land short, depending on the wind direction.

    While there are a number of holes at my local track that most members would agree need re-designing, I now wonder whether any changes could be limited by the fact that the fairways around the greens themselves may simply not facilitate this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    Would a great but out-of-the-way 9-hole public course work? Maybe - it'd have to be great though because of the perception here golf isn'r real unless it's 18 holes. Geoff and I played Frankston GC today - a real 9-hole hidden gem and it works with 300 members. I think it'd work as a public course as well.

    Buck Club? How many clubs work here with a joining fee above $15,000 - unless its in Sydney? They work in US because there is way more money there and an expectation $100k plus joining fees are normal I've heard of $750k and $1m. It's a way different market.
    How about a course like Sweetens Cove?

    Could that work in Australia?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUSHY View Post
    How about a course like Sweetens Cove?

    Could that work in Australia?
    That was Mike’s answer to the same question posed by Fuzzy Juzzy above Sam!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve57 View Post
    That was Mike’s answer to the same question posed by Fuzzy Juzzy above Sam!
    Hahaha. Indeed it was.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Probably a slightly odd question, but how much consideration regarding hole re-design is dictated by the existing grass type used in the fairways?

    The reason I ask is that my local course (country track) has kikuyu fairways, which makes any type of low running shot almost impossible to perform with any degree of confidence. In windy conditions, which is most of the time, this is a bit of a bugger. I have recently been playing in Ireland and Scotland, and have found that the range of shot options is far greater as the predominant fairway grasses allow for either higher shots onto the actual green or low runners that land short, depending on the wind direction.

    While there are a number of holes at my local track that most members would agree need re-designing, I now wonder whether any changes could be limited by the fact that the fairways around the greens themselves may simply not facilitate this.
    The kikuyu at the Lakes finished up about 20 meters short of the green and there was an apron/tongue of couch, then a ring of rye and the bent of the greens. It looked awful and was why we ran the kikuyu all the way to the green. Nor did we consider changing to couch because of the likely on-going war to keep the kikuyu out as well as it being a much better choice of grass in the winter.
    And, despite people suggesting you can't run the ball up you can if you hit with the right force and trajectory. The kikuyu at the Lakes is brilliant quality - much different from the kikuyu in Sydney in the 1970s.
    The right choice for a course can also be very site specific.

  12. #37
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    MAC, we hear you on a few podcasts, but which golf podcasts do you listen to (if any)?

  13. #38
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    The Fried Egg - Andy is a good guy who loves architecture Feed the Ball with Derek Duncan.
    The Golfer's Journal occasionally.
    Mostly though I listen to the non-golf ones.

  14. #39
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    Mac

    Will RC 19 to 27 get the Clayton treatment?

    Are there any tweaks and improvements you would like to address on 1 to 18 now its bedded in? Did you redo the green on 18 after its issues or was it reprofiled in house?

    FWIW, the revised back 9 is great, with the run from 14 to 16 brilliant. However, I dont get 17. 200 to 215m uphill to a green that doesnt hold. Urgh.

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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    The kikuyu at the Lakes finished up about 20 meters short of the green and there was an apron/tongue of couch, then a ring of rye and the bent of the greens. It looked awful and was why we ran the kikuyu all the way to the green. Nor did we consider changing to couch because of the likely on-going war to keep the kikuyu out as well as it being a much better choice of grass in the winter.And, despite people suggesting you can't run the ball up you can if you hit with the right force and trajectory. The kikuyu at the Lakes is brilliant quality - much different from the kikuyu in Sydney in the 1970s.The right choice for a course can also be very site specific.
    Thanks for the reply - appreciate the insights.

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    Absolutely certain that MAC will attest that courses get the OCCM (plus JS?) treatment, not just the clayts treatment.
    Saying that, I would imagine that they r all of similar mind wet GCA.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBennett View Post
    Mac

    Will RC 19 to 27 get the Clayton treatment?

    Are there any tweaks and improvements you would like to address on 1 to 18 now its bedded in? Did you redo the green on 18 after its issues or was it reprofiled in house?

    FWIW, the revised back 9 is great, with the run from 14 to 16 brilliant. However, I dont get 17. 200 to 215m uphill to a green that doesnt hold. Urgh.
    19-27 is up to the club. Not sure when they will do it.
    I thought the 18th was fine but others had an issue with it so we tweaked it.
    17 is barely uphill- and it will hold if you hit it high enough. If you can't hit it high enough do what I did on the opening day with Ogilvy (off the far back tee) and hit a thin 3 wood and run it on

    I walked the course a few weeks ago- and I'm not sure we would change too much of the design. The tee shot at the 1st would be better if it was wider on the left.

  18. #43
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    Found the thread and would ask here about approaches and tee shots.

    How does a designer dictate when a green or fairway has enough hazards ? At what point do you say "The shape of the green, the bunkering / water hazards, thats enough"? The second part of the question leads from this where what is the modern thinking with regards to dictating the style of play on a hole and restricting the player to a single route around that golf course.

    Now i believe that there will always be an optimal way to play a course setup, but how much thought goes into the setup to change the course from being this one dimensional entity based on execution?

    The second question is the age old, pro vs player vs club player vs chopper. How do you balance this around your courses ? When the average age of a club player is easily over 50, and professionals and good amateurs are smarter, fitter and stronger than they have ever been. I just dont understand how this is possible.

    The last question is regards to maintenance, how do you see the local club scene in 10 -15 years with regards to the sometimes unrealistic demands of members vs the cost of upkeep and maintenance.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    Found the thread and would ask here about approaches and tee shots.

    How does a designer dictate when a green or fairway has enough hazards ?
    When the hole has enough to make it interesting.
    At what point do you say "The shape of the green, the bunkering / water hazards, thats enough"?
    When you think it's a good hole. It sounds obvious enough and it's what a designer should learn from a place like Royal Melbourne - the best piece of architecture in the country.
    The second part of the question leads from this where what is the modern thinking with regards to dictating the style of play on a hole and restricting the player to a single route around that golf course.
    Not many great modern courses - or old ones - dictate anything. They best ones ask you to work it out for yourself. The Old Course is the ultimate course in that respect.

    Now i believe that there will always be an optimal way to play a course setup, but how much thought goes into the setup to change the course from being this one dimensional entity based on execution?
    The optimal way to play a course can vary wildly depending on the player. By changing the setup are you taking tee and pin positions?

    The second question is the age old, pro vs player vs club player vs chopper. How do you balance this around your courses ?
    Royal Melbourne again is the lesson - the better you are the harder the course is to score low especially when the pins are hard but the poorer the player the easier it is to play bogey golf. Coolum is an example of the opposite principle.
    When the average age of a club player is easily over 50, and professionals and good amateurs are smarter, fitter and stronger than they have ever been. I just dont understand how this is possible.

    It's not easy because the equipment has created a wider gap between good players and the rest than ever before.
    Nor are they necessarily smarter - and for all the fitter and stronger stuff most of the increased distance they hit comes from the equipment.

    The last question is regards to maintenance, how do you see the local club scene in 10 -15 years with regards to the sometimes unrealistic demands of members vs the cost of upkeep and maintenance.
    The successful will continue to spend because Australian golfers are more obsessed with conditions than British golfers - where the prices of joining clubs is somewhat close. As opposed to US where it's crazy.
    Smart ones like Port Fairy and Barnbougle (the best conditioned courses with Cape Wickham in the country because they have fescue fairways) will not obsess with 'perfection' and present good golf in very acceptable condition. The question is: If a club with a budget approaching 2m cut that by 50% what % would the standard of maintenance fall. 50%? 10%?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    The successful will continue to spend because Australian golfers are more obsessed with conditions than British golfers - where the prices of joining clubs is somewhat close. As opposed to US where it's crazy.
    Smart ones like Port Fairy and Barnbougle (the best conditioned courses with Cape Wickham in the country because they have fescue fairways) will not obsess with 'perfection' and present good golf in very acceptable condition. The question is: If a club with a budget approaching 2m cut that by 50% what % would the standard of maintenance fall. 50%? 10%?
    I have often wondered if Melbourne, in your opinion, had a suitable climate to grow & maintain fescue fairways. Do you think that any club(s) would be prepared to move away from the grass of choice (Santa Anna ???) to fescue ???

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    The conventional wisdom seems to be it's too hot. Tasmania obviously is perfect and Barnbougle have the best fairways in the country - they aren't 'perfect' a la Metro but they are the best to play from.
    On the mainland the best fairways (for mine anyway) are at Moonah National and 13th Beach - both fescue oversown into a couch base.
    I'd love to see someone try it in Melbourne - but the supers all worry about keeping poa out of the greens. The National fairways have a lot of poa in them but seemingly almost none in the greens.

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    I can't imagine it would be a problem for any course with predominantly poa greens !!!
    What about off the fairway. Carries & rough, where shade is not an issue, would be the ideal areas to incorporate some type of fescue mix ???

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    Victoria put a little fescue into their roughs and it worked well. But as a rule the grasses we have in Australian roughs work pretty well. The lies are random, and it looks good. A massive generalisation though.
    The good thing is we don't maintain rough like Americans often to in order to make it 'fair' 'consistent' and predictable and were the aim to to give every player the same lie Ugh

  24. #49
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    Mac, BD new holes open this Friday, everyone’s excited to say the least!
    They look great, new short game area and putting greaan look superb.
    I know I’ve asked before, but I’d love a set of all the greens to help with green reading etc...
    What’s the best way to go about it.
    Thanks in advance

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    Victoria put a little fescue into their roughs and it worked well. But as a rule the grasses we have in Australian roughs work pretty well. The lies are random, and it looks good. A massive generalisation though.The good thing is we don't maintain rough like Americans often to in order to make it 'fair' 'consistent' and predictable and were the aim to to give every player the same lie Ugh
    After leaving Melbourne to return to Sydney (North Shore), I miss and appreciate the set up of Melbourne courses so much more! The options for the short game down there is so much more fun then just trying to hack through thick kikuyu.


 

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