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Thread: Ask Mac

  1. #1
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    moved from Aus Open thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    2 was a par 4 in 1980 and 3 was a 5. - and TWP changed 2 it to a 5 and 3 to a 4. We took the 2nd back to a 4, left 3 as a 4 and got the par back to 72 (not that we cared about the par) .The 5th green was redone by Newton,Grant and Spencer post 1980 to move it away from the boundary. We put it back a little closer to the original place.And the course was a lot more open but the tree planting had already begun - when the original course was windswept and open just like the old Australian. And we put the 18th green back on the ground as it was in 1980 - as opposed to the two elevated versions of Grant and Thomson.
    Mac, quick query, when a hole is designed, how many pin placements are designed for? Does it vary from Par 3s to par 5s?Cheers
    Last edited by PeteyD; 22nd November 2018 at 06:41 AM.

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    it doesn't vary from 3 to 5 (certainly you can't make rules) More the size of the green should roughly - but not always - reflect the sort of shot into the green. 13 at The Lakes only works for a short approach and 14 works for a long one - and a short one.
    Gil Hanse had an interesting view on greens and pin positions when he was doing tour courses including Doral,Boston and Rio when he said PGA Tour officials were more concerned with pin positions than anything else. 'You finish up building pin positions rather than just building greens'

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    Default Ask Mac

    Starting a thread for Golf Course design / architecture questions for Mike Clayton, rather than using the Aus open thread. I will move some of the questions in here and link it.





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    Hi Mac

    I have noticed that the vast majority of your designs contain a bunker set that is shaped like a natural scar of the surface, my assumption is your replicating a hazard that has been created by mother nature as opposed to a human

    Have you ever considered or been in a position to design conventional/more circular bunker shapes to accommodate existing golf course designs?

    If this is not your preference why do you choose to design bunkers the way you currently do

    I find your bunkers are always the hardest to get out of! (not saying that its a bad thing, it's called a hazard for a reason)

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    Hi Mac

    Your thoughts on the 17th @ 'The Cut' ? (Dawesville, W.A)

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    Mac,

    How often does a designer go back after they are done to see whether their work is playing as intended?
    eg. A green slope that might be a bit too severe, or it turns out it cannot be pinned, a bunker that is collecting a bit too much or not enough.
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    Bruce,

    Most courses we work at we do at least an annual audit for the committee - and sometimes two.

    Plus we get around a lot - both men's and women's Open's (to see Lakes,Bonnie Doon and Grange)and I play a tournament in Perth so we always have an eye on what's going on.

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    Never seen it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thecollective View Post
    Hi Mac

    I have noticed that the vast majority of your designs contain a bunker set that is shaped like a natural scar of the surface, my assumption is your replicating a hazard that has been created by mother nature as opposed to a human

    Have you ever considered or been in a position to design conventional/more circular bunker shapes to accommodate existing golf course designs?

    If this is not your preference why do you choose to design bunkers the way you currently do

    I find your bunkers are always the hardest to get out of! (not saying that its a bad thing, it's called a hazard for a reason)
    Examples of what you are talking about are always good. We have down a lot on the sandbelt so they fit with that traditional look.
    We did small, round, pot bunkers at Torquay and the bunkers at both Royal Queensland and The Lakes are different again.
    The aim ought to be to find a style suiting each piece of land - not repeating the same look over and over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    Examples of what you are talking about are always good. We have down a lot on the sandbelt so they fit with that traditional look.
    We did small, round, pot bunkers at Torquay and the bunkers at both Royal Queensland and The Lakes are different again.
    The aim ought to be to find a style suiting each piece of land - not repeating the same look over and over.
    Speaking of RQ, we played a round of our QLD champs there recently, and the green complexes were polarising (love/hate) amongst the group.

    After seeing the Lakes, it appears they are not as severe, but do you have any insight as to the intent of what was done at RQ, particularly the greens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    Examples of what you are talking about are always good.
    As requested, examples taken from RQ, The Lakes and Bonnie Doon respectively

    All resemble natural scarring (IMO)

    Screen Shot 2018-11-22 at 2.58.04 pm.jpgScreen Shot 2018-11-22 at 2.48.35 pm.jpgScreen Shot 2018-11-22 at 2.55.38 pm.jpg

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    Mac, re The Doon....
    Any chance getting green pics/maps etc via email to putt a book together?

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    Why is your nickname Mac?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    Bruce,

    Most courses we work at we do at least an annual audit for the committee - and sometimes two.

    Plus we get around a lot - both men's and women's Open's (to see Lakes,Bonnie Doon and Grange)and I play a tournament in Perth so we always have an eye on what's going on.
    Is that the norm for a design co? Do others do more? or less?
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    Quote Originally Posted by benno_r View Post
    Speaking of RQ, we played a round of our QLD champs there recently, and the green complexes were polarising (love/hate) amongst the group.

    After seeing the Lakes, it appears they are not as severe, but do you have any insight as to the intent of what was done at RQ, particularly the greens?
    RQ - Wide fairways. Almost no rough. Centre-line hazards on quite a few holes. And - some severe greens to advantage those who drove to the right part of the fairway and who hit good irons. Hit it far from the hole and the putting is difficult. And there are plenty of great,old severe greens. The critics seem to thing it's a new thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thecollective View Post
    As requested, examples taken from RQ, The Lakes and Bonnie Doon respectively

    All resemble natural scarring (IMO)

    Attachment 48683Attachment 48684Attachment 48685
    RQ has a lot of those 'trench' bunkers - but it's not something we have done very often. There are a few at Bonnie Doon. Nowhere near as many though.
    They work well though - I think anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Is that the norm for a design co? Do others do more? or less?
    i'm not sure if others do it but it avoids ad-hoc committee changes and it keeps the course on track. And it allows for improvements to what we may have done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JADO75 View Post
    Why is your nickname Mac?
    It's not. It's my initials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Mac, re The Doon....
    Any chance getting green pics/maps etc via email to putt a book together?
    Well beyond my technical capabilities

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    RQ has a lot of those 'trench' bunkers - but it's not something we have done very often. There are a few at Bonnie Doon. Nowhere near as many though.
    They work well though - I think anyway.
    A slightly firmer question (sorry in advance Mac)

    Why did you use trench bunkers at RA #17 when the remaining site was traditional shaped circular design. I understand you wanted to redesign the entire course but it was alarmingly bold to have just hole with this design


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Clayton View Post
    Well beyond my technical capabilities
    Can I email OCCM and ask...?
    I’d really appreciate if I could get a copy?

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    Mac,

    It’s so great to read your responses here. Listening to what you have to say is always fascinating. Do you think a Sweetens Cove-type course would work in Australia given the smaller golfing population and market? If so, would that be a project that would interest you? And if so, where do you think it should/could be built? Sweetens Cove looks bloody amazing; it’s SO COOL what Rob Collins and his team have done there. A great, very creative golf facility accessible to pretty much anyone and everyone.

    Also, pretty much same questions as above:
    I’d love to see what you, Geoff and OCCM could conjure if you were to design and build something like Zac Blair’s The Buck Club. A project where you could create anything you wanted without being answerable to a committee or members or a developer. Would that look much different to the work you’ve already done?
    Thanks Mac.
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    Just my 2 cents Fuzzman. I reckon a public course in a big city, that had 12 holes in lieu of 18 holes, would do great business.
    9 is not enough but the time required for 18 holes is too much in this day and age, especially for social players!
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    Quote Originally Posted by petethepilot View Post
    Just my 2 cents Fuzzman. I reckon a public course in a big city, that had 12 holes in lieu of 18 holes, would do great business.9 is not enough but the time required for 18 holes is too much in this day and age, especially for social players!
    Hear, hear, PTP. There’s some interesting dialogue floating around out there - pretty sure it was on (the very excellent) The Fried Egg podcast - talking about if you have an hour lunch break at work where you’d normally go to, say, the gym, if you could play golf in that time instead, surely you’d rather do that. Andy Johnson was proposing that if there were inner city courses (9 or 12 holes or whatever) where you could play a four-hole loop in under an hour, surely you’d rather do that than, say, go to the gym in your lunch break. Some golf is better than no golf, right?The other important thing (as Andy says...I’m a bit of a Fried Egg fanatic) is having more architecturally sound public access courses that anyone can play. The idea being that if newcomers to golf experience good golf architecture from the start, they’re more likely to stick with the game. That makes sense to me, even if it is a bit aspirational and may be easier said than done. I guess the good thing is that in Australia we have a lot of good semi-private courses that social visitors can access at certain times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by petethepilot View Post
    Just my 2 cents Fuzzman. I reckon a public course in a big city, that had 12 holes in lieu of 18 holes, would do great business.
    9 is not enough but the time required for 18 holes is too much in this day and age, especially for social players!
    I agree..
    Ours is currently 16 due to the new holes being built , but if you ask the majority of the members it’s enough, and it’s only 3.5 hrs max to play!
    Plus the missus doesn’t know so that’s another 2 tallboys I can drink before I get home!


 

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