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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNuclearOne View Post
    Need you to cast a critical eye on Handscomb Jim, he needs it badly. I have a feeling they might change him out for Mitch Marsh next Test tho.
    I don't think Handscomb will get another chance. Every expert (and people like us) seems to have written off his technique as unsuitable. Poor form can be overcome, poor technique cannot. For the same reason, I hope M Marsh doesn't get another chance until he starts scoring big runs, but he probably will play.

    I'm glad I brought Khawaja back to life. He needed it, and we needed it, and as a result we might win this test. We aren't home yet while Kohli is batting, but if India can win from here they will deserve all the accolades they might get.
    "There are 50 things to remember in the golf swing. Trouble is that I can only remember 49 of them" - Bob Hope.

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    Garry

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimandr View Post
    I don't think Handscomb will get another chance. Every expert (and people like us) seems to have written off his technique as unsuitable. Poor form can be overcome, poor technique cannot. For the same reason, I hope M Marsh doesn't get another chance until he starts scoring big runs, but he probably will play.

    I'm glad I brought Khawaja back to life. He needed it, and we needed it, and as a result we might win this test. We aren't home yet while Kohli is batting, but if India can win from here they will deserve all the accolades they might get.
    Yeah i'd be surprised see Handscomb playing next Test even in the event of a win. Kwaka's effort was worth a ton imo and it's hard to understate Paines efforts both batting and dealing with the egotistical pest that is Kohli.
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  4. #154
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    Good win for Australia - my optimism after Adelaide has now been replaced by pessimism for Melbourne though. If they produce another abomination of a pitch like the last few (decades of) MCG tracks, I can’t see us ever getting Virat out. All the pressure will be on the Australian batsmen to not squander their starts and actually push on to make big 100s. Ussie and Marsh will need to produce the goods, and not just make pretty 50s and then throw it away. The differences between the two bowling attacks will probably be minimised by the track, and therefore the class of the Indian middle order will probably come to the fore. Really hope that they give us another pitch that has a balance between bat and ball.

    Hanscomb looks like he’ll be axed for Mitch Marsh, who has been setting the world on fire for WA. The selectors dropped Marsh and said he needed to go back to the Shield and find form. Since then he has taken at least one wicket, and made it into double figures with the bat. What more could you want?

    I do feel sorry for Hanscomb in a way. He has played on the harder batting tracks (I.e. Adelaide and Perth) like last year, and then gets dropped coming onto the flatter batting decks of Melbourne and Sydney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Good win for Australia - my optimism after Adelaide has now been replaced by pessimism for Melbourne though. If they produce another abomination of a pitch like the last few (decades of) MCG tracks, I can’t see us ever getting Virat out. All the pressure will be on the Australian batsmen to not squander their starts and actually push on to make big 100s. Ussie and Marsh will need to produce the goods, and not just make pretty 50s and then throw it away. The differences between the two bowling attacks will probably be minimised by the track, and therefore the class of the Indian middle order will probably come to the fore. Really hope that they give us another pitch that has a balance between bat and ball.Hanscomb looks like he’ll be axed for Mitch Marsh, who has been setting the world on fire for WA. The selectors dropped Marsh and said he needed to go back to the Shield and find form. Since then he has taken at least one wicket, and made it into double figures with the bat. What more could you want?I do feel sorry for Hanscomb in a way. He has played on the harder batting tracks (I.e. Adelaide and Perth) like last year, and then gets dropped coming onto the flatter batting decks of Melbourne and Sydney.
    I disagree Stuart, I think they will keep an unchanged winning lineup. Yes Handscomb has his problems but no one has been breaking the door down to get into the team and he has contributed in a big way in the field taking some great catches. The selectors need to draw a line in the sand and stick with their first choices. Besides he will be on his home ground where he made the runs that got him into the side in the first place.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve57 View Post
    I disagree Stuart, I think they will keep an unchanged winning lineup. Yes Handscomb has his problems but no one has been breaking the door down to get into the team and he has contributed in a big way in the field taking some great catches. The selectors need to draw a line in the sand and stick with their first choices. Besides he will be on his home ground where he made the runs that got him into the side in the first place.
    Agree 100% with you - but I was predicting what I think the selectors will do, not what I would do. Ever since James Pattinson broke down against South Africa in Adelaide a few years back, the selectors are obsessed with playing a bowling allrounder at no. 6 on flatter tracks.

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    I may be reading between the lines but I think this time is different in that it was Tim Paine that fronted the media to explain why M Marsh was dropped, not the selectors. He stressed that he needed to go back to Shield cricket to get some form back. He hasn’t done that so I can’t see how they can select him using that criteria. He has rarely bowled more than a dozen overs per test anyway so to me he doesn’t bring anything to the team that is not already there. Cummins is a better bet as the all rounder. If they feel the need for another bowling option to replace Handscomb I would hope they go back to Glen Maxwell who is also a brilliant fieldsman.
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    I think they will go with the same 11 . Handscomb will get one last chance on his home track , at least I hope so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Good win for Australia - my optimism after Adelaide has now been replaced by pessimism for Melbourne though. If they produce another abomination of a pitch like the last few (decades of) MCG tracks, I can’t see us ever getting Virat out. All the pressure will be on the Australian batsmen to not squander their starts and actually push on to make big 100s. Ussie and Marsh will need to produce the goods, and not just make pretty 50s and then throw it away. The differences between the two bowling attacks will probably be minimised by the track, and therefore the class of the Indian middle order will probably come to the fore. Really hope that they give us another pitch that has a balance between bat and ball.

    Hanscomb looks like he’ll be axed for Mitch Marsh, who has been setting the world on fire for WA. The selectors dropped Marsh and said he needed to go back to the Shield and find form. Since then he has taken at least one wicket, and made it into double figures with the bat. What more could you want?

    I do feel sorry for Hanscomb in a way. He has played on the harder batting tracks (I.e. Adelaide and Perth) like last year, and then gets dropped coming onto the flatter batting decks of Melbourne and Sydney.
    It's certainly set up for a fascinating series. I think Marsh will come in but wouldn't cry if Handscomb was given one more gig.

    Our bits and pieces top order has done just enough in both games to give us our chance but we also depend heavily on lots of tail end assistance and excellent bowling and fielding. We are also hugely aided by the shocking Indian tail. Our superb tail and their shocking one (certainly without Ashwin and even with him the onus is almost completely on him) helps bring the overall batting between the two teams closer.

    Their 8-11 produced 9 runs in the first innings off the bat vs our 36. In the second dig it was 2 vs 37. That's 60 odd extra from our tail just off the willow. Bloody handy. Batting longer usually gets you more extra's as well obviously. In the first Test it was about 40 vs 156, so 116 odd runs just off the bat for our tail. That's an immense difference but the trouble is our tail needs to keep producing.

    We really need a couple in the top order to step up now. It won't be easy as the Indian's are bowling with excellent pace and persistence and getting some nice movement particularly back into the righties.
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  10. #160
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    The concern about handy pete reminds me of the film "save your legs!" in which we are reminded ordinary cricketers can still achieve extraordinary feats all while giving us a good giggle.

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    What's the selector's fascination with Mitch Marsh apart from him being a Vice Captain and from WA ?

    Based on Stuart's stats above he didn't deliver good results from his last Shield game.

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    The selectors have been fantasizing about finding a gun allrounder for a long long time. They invested heavily in Watson and have invested quite heavily in Marsh already. We've been very thin on the ground post Davidson and Miller. Just in the early 80's India had Dev, England had Botham, Pakistan had Imran and NZ had Hadlee. Almost everyone had an absolute gun all at the same time except us. Four all time greats. The W.I. didn't have to worry as their team was phenomenal any which way. The likes of those four have been thin on the ground since tho that's for sure. Incredible that four could share the same era.

    But getting back to the point the investment in Marsh also heavily involves imo family heritage/lineage. Many believe they let the cat out of the bag back in December when giving reasons as to why he was elevated to vice captain -

    Mitch has successfully captained Australia A, Australia Under-19 and Western Australia. He is an extremely popular member of the team, he has great humility, and given his lineage, he understands and respects the responsibility which comes with representing Australia and Australians.”

    The other big reason they are keener than ever to play an allrounder is due to the number of injuries our fast bowlers have suffered in recent years. A good allrounder can take a lot of workload away from the quicks which should equal less injuries.
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    Kallis had a fairly handy record in both batting and bowling...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sydney Hacker View Post
    Kallis had a fairly handy record in both batting and bowling...
    There's a hugely notable for sure. On a lesser level Flintoff and Pollock went ok too. I could never get excited about his bowling but the numbers are fine without being being overly close to guys like Hadlee and Khan. His batting utterly decimates them however.
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    Consecutive selectors have had an odd obsession with the idea of team balance instead of picking the best 11 to win the game in question.

    Marsh adds an illusion of team balance on paper but in reality he is a very average red ball cricketer. Always has been and always will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNuclearOne View Post
    The selectors have been fantasizing about finding a gun allrounder for a long long time. They invested heavily in Watson and have invested quite heavily in Marsh already. We've been very thin on the ground post Davidson and Miller. Just in the early 80's India had Dev, England had Botham, Pakistan had Imran and NZ had Hadlee. Almost everyone had an absolute gun all at the same time except us. Four all time greats. The W.I. didn't have to worry as their team was phenomenal any which way. The likes of those four have been thin on the ground since tho that's for sure. Incredible that four could share the same era.

    But getting back to the point the investment in Marsh also heavily involves imo family heritage/lineage. Many believe they let the cat out of the bag back in December when giving reasons as to why he was elevated to vice captain -

    Mitch has successfully captained Australia A, Australia Under-19 and Western Australia. He is an extremely popular member of the team, he has great humility, and given his lineage, he understands and respects the responsibility which comes with representing Australia and Australians.”

    The other big reason they are keener than ever to play an allrounder is due to the number of injuries our fast bowlers have suffered in recent years. A good allrounder can take a lot of workload away from the quicks which should equal less injuries.
    I agree with the all-rounder strategy but given his inconsistent performances why not give someone like Stoinis a run ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pt73 View Post
    I agree with the all-rounder strategy but given his inconsistent performances why not give someone like Stoinis a run ?
    Stoinis is certainly competing for the spot.

    What i will begrudgingly give Marsh is that he had a blinder of a series with the bat last time at home in The Ashes. Two tons including a big one from four bats. 320 runs at an average of 106 against a very good bowling line up. His bowling however was mundane and expensive.

    I wouldn't begrudge him a Test or two but if he doesn't perform it's time to choose another or drop the allrounder hunt for now.

    The silly thing is Maxwell could potentially roll down enough overs to rest the quicks and is one would think in the top 6 bats in Australia with Warner and Smith out. He's sensational in the field and competes hard as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNuclearOne View Post
    Stoinis is certainly competing for the spot.


    The silly thing is Maxwell could potentially roll down enough overs to rest the quicks and is one would think in the top 6 bats in Australia with Warner and Smith out. He's sensational in the field and competes hard as well.
    Maxwell's problem is the same as M Marsh's, and probably Stoinis's as well. They are all great batsmen with the field spread and quick runs required. Ask them to face a moving ball with 4 slips and two close-in fielders and the knowledge that they cannot afford to throw away their wicket cheaply, and they crumble, time after time. It is the essential difference between tests and limited overs.

    Even in TNO's list of great all-rounders, mostly they batted 7 or 8, not at 5 or 6. The Gary Sobers and Jacques Kallis examples occur once every 50 years, and even then you could argue their batting was better than their bowling toward the end of their careers.

    Back to the series at hand.

    While we won the game, I'm not filled with confidence as a result of it. Reverse the toss and we probably lose the game. The pitch really suited our bowling strengths.

    The batting is still very fragile. Even our best batsman, Khawaja, seems best suited to a long grinding backs-to-the-wall challenge where he has to think survival first. Most of his cheap dismissals have been when he is trying to be aggressive and force the pace. I think Handscomb has to go. You can't get out LBW on the back foot to a half volley you should be driving down the ground and stay in test cricket. None of the options to replace him are good though.

    I'd bring in Joe Burns and drop Finch down the order, but for the moment that won't happen.

    As was said earlier, on flatter pitches we may really battle to get Pujara and Kohli out, and I reckon the other Indian batsmen may go much better, too. Now if the extra bowling firepower that M Marsh provides is good enough to negate those factors, then we'll go well (insert sarcasm emoji here).

    One other positive from the win is that the crowds should be quite good in the next two tests.
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    Jim your comments about Maxwell indicate you've watched about zero minutes of him play red ball cricket. He averages 40 with 7 tonns in fc from 61 games. Compares as a batsman with Head and Handscombe not Marsh and Stoinis.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 19th December 2018 at 05:28 PM.

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    Thought JT was dillusional when he quoted Sir Richard Hadlee as an allrounder, my memory has certainly faded, averaging 27 n a bit is certainly allrounder territory





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    I actually rate Maxwell quite highly from a technical perspective. When he is batting ‘seriously’, he does most of the basics well. His big problems are mental (i.e. poor shot selection), not playing enough first class cricket, and public perception. His batting stats are pretty good, and certainly better than those of Finch (as but one example). I feel that the selectors have somewhat unfairly labelled him as a ‘sub-continent’ only Test player, and are unwilling to give him a go at home. Someone (TNO perhaps) suggested that Maxwell should give away the nude-nut offies and bowl some seam-up instead. I am sure that he would be more than capable of doing this, and this would probably satisfy the selectors’ desire for a medium-pace batting allrounder (as Head now can contribute with his equally ineffectual off-spin).It will be interesting to see if Hilton Cartwright ever makes a comeback. He is another that looked to be quite technically sound with the bat, but his bowling looked very limited at international level.
    Last edited by Stuart; 19th December 2018 at 07:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldracer View Post
    Thought JT was dillusional when he quoted Sir Richard Hadlee as an allrounder, my memory has certainly faded, averaging 27 n a bit is certainly allrounder territory
    When you look at his batting from a current standpoint it's certainly underwhelming isn't it yet he's known as one of the greatest allrounders. Obviously he was a bowling allrounder. Batting averages have risen in recent decades too. He was certainly the worst batsman among the big 4 of his day. You could argue him a slightly greater bowler than Imran tho you could go the other way too. Imran was certainly the best cricketer of those four.
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    There is some context around Hadlee's batting - he was playing in a fairly poor Kiwi outfit (Martin Crowe excepted) and took on a massive bowling load across his entire career that Imran, Botham and Kapil didn't have to manage. Botham is considered the best batsman of the four across his entire career - his final average was only 33-34 but this dropped a fair bit in later years. Imran's batting average was higher than Botham's by the end (37-38.), but this is largely due to a dramatic improvement from the first part of his career when he bowled a lot more, and the second half when he took on a support role behind Wasim/Waqar etc which allowed him to focus more on his batting.

    It is worth noting that Hadlee performed the all round 'double' of 1000 runs and 100 wickets in an English season in 1984, which was the first time a player had done that since 1967. Interesting, as this was a feat that Botham never managed in his own country and conditions.

    One of the useful comparisons is to look at the differential between a player's batting and bowling average (this sort of balances out the differences in eras). If we limit it to players who took at least 100 wickets (to exclude a few outliers like Dougie Walters), Sobers not surprisingly leads the way, with a difference of nearly 24 runs between his batting and bowling. Kallis is next, then Imran and Keith Miller (who are nearly equal). Botham is in front of Hadlee, who is in turn in front of Kapil Dev. That would pretty much match my rating of the four all-rounders.

    Interesting ones that are overlooked in these discussions include Shaun Pollock (batting average of 32 and bowling of 23), and Tony Grieg (40 and 32) who both outrank Botham, Hadlee and Kapil.

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    The all-rounder subject is interesting, but for me, not as interesting as what happened in the Bash tonight, ironically involving budding all-rounder James Pattinson.

    I have never seen a fielding team withdraw an appeal at this level of cricket before. Of course, maybe there has never been a more obviously wrong 3rd umpire decision made before, and obviously never has such a wrong decision been broadcast on the Big Screen at the ground so that all the players saw it.

    There are so many issues here. Off the top of my head, there is the issue of benefit of doubt, whether a batsman should be out because he dived with the back of his bat grounded rather than the flat side, whether a third umpire should adjudicate based on factors that cannot be detected with the naked eye. Then there is the issue of effectively refusing to accept the decision, and the players taking matters into their own hands. Will they do the same thing with LBW's or catches in future? Or in the final?

    Or maybe I'm overthinking the whole thing and nobody will care in the morning.
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    Has anyone checked if the third umpire is South Australian?


 

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