Understanding Strategic Golf Design

[Jazz18]

The options are more the length you drive not so much the line.Longer hitters can try the carry down the left (245m) Shorter hitters can play left or try for the gap - which is still 35m across.
The bunker is further again - 280m. If the pin is tucked behind the little pot bunker on the left the best line is down ten right and if it's in the back right corner coming in from the left is a little easier.

Thanks Mike. My question was a little loaded given some of the discussions on GCA previously on this forum. I've had a few people here try to "explain" the definitions of GCA architecture to me like they're black and white. I can't see how you can define what a golf course is or what type of design it is when the way everyone plays a golf course is very different. It's all subjective. Yes, there are options here but from that blue tee (not to mention the black) there is pretty much only one option for most players, the short option. The other options only exist if your ability allows you to consider that shot and if you can't it's not an option. As you said, it's not really the line, it's the length you drive. If you can't carry down the left or the long carry, the short option is the only option. Down the right isn't really an option for anyone but the elite because of how narrow it is. Ok, it's there but who go there unless you had the ball on a string. Cheers.

[petethepilot]

Does all golf have to be from the blue or black tee?

The most fun at the Barnbougle twins is playing from different tees...especially when the card and pencil are put away!
Stroke play and competition play really stiffles imagination on the golf course.
Most players wouldn’t have the balls to play down Hogan’s alley in a stroke event...but it’s a thrill in match play or social play!

[Jazz18]

Does all golf have to be from the blue or black tee?

The most fun at the Barnbougle twins is playing from different tees...especially when the card and pencil are put away!
Stroke play and competition play really stiffles imagination on the golf course.
Most players wouldn’t have the balls to play down Hogan’s alley in a stroke event...but it’s a thrill in match play or social play!

Yep, agreed. Sounds great.

[benno_r]

Down the right isn't really an option for anyone but the elite because of how narrow it is. Ok, it's there but who go there unless you had the ball on a string. Cheers.

So a well executed shot, taking on trouble is rewarded? A bad shot is likely to find find rough, and possibly be hittable, and a really terrible shot will find water?

Fairly decent definition of strategic golf.

[Jazz18]

So a well executed shot, taking on trouble is rewarded? A bad shot is likely to find find rough, and possibly be hittable, and a really terrible shot will find water?

Fairly decent definition of strategic golf.

How wide is the section on the right? Given the section in the middle short is 35m wide, it looks pretty f'n narrow.

[benno_r]

How wide is the section on the right? Given the section in the middle short is 35m wide, it looks pretty f'n narrow.

It's 20m wide at it's narrowest point.

It has 3 distinct landing areas. Short of the waist, up the waist, or over the goonge.

For a long hitter, all 3 options are available. For a mid hitter like me, 2 are (short with a hybrid - red, or run a driver - yellow). Short hitters are only going to play to red, but not be punished for it.

I played off the blues, and 2 options were available, as would be playing off the blacks. I chose the red, for no other reason than my driver miss for the day was a block, which bought the water into play. I still had 7i in, which i chose to land short and run into the hole. If i went the yellow and succeeded, i would have had a wedge.

Eminently playable, with multiple valid options.

Lovely strategic hole.

[thecollective]

Goonge also presents a playable lie, well one would assume most of the time

I thought this hole was excellent when we played it; only criticism was the clubs decision to leave the rakes outside of the bunker, stopping my ball from rightly entering that pot on the LHS

[benno_r]

Goonge also presents a playable lie, well one would assume most of the time

I thought this hole was excellent when we played it; only criticism was the clubs decision to leave the rakes outside of the bunker, stopping my ball from rightly entering that pot on the LHS

I assume king tides might present a bit of trouble?

It's a really great stretch 5/6/7 along the river. Thank **** I don't know what the left hand side of the golf course looks like.

[thecollective]

Mac: was there ever a temptation to build a Pete Dye inspired green (ala Harbour Town 18.) where the back #7 tee block is located in benno's pic?

[Mike Clayton]

A long story.

When we pitched for the job we had to design one hole - the par 5 16th. (the 9s were reversed from what they play now).

We built the hole we designed and it's a good hole - and it would have been difficult to change our minds after construction started, build the 6th green on the 7th tee, and shorten the par 5

But we have looked at it often since and no doubt we would make a great short 4 to the 7th tee.
It would have been tricky for short hitters - but we easily could have made a hole with two greens. Pine Valley, after all, has two holes in a row with two greens and Pacific Dunes (Bandon) was one - the 9th - also.

[Jazz18]

It's 20m wide at it's narrowest point.

It has 3 distinct landing areas. Short of the waist, up the waist, or over the goonge.

For a long hitter, all 3 options are available. For a mid hitter like me, 2 are (short with a hybrid - red, or run a driver - yellow). Short hitters are only going to play to red, but not be punished for it.

I played off the blues, and 2 options were available, as would be playing off the blacks. I chose the red, for no other reason than my driver miss for the day was a block, which bought the water into play. I still had 7i in, which i chose to land short and run into the hole. If i went the yellow and succeeded, i would have had a wedge.

Eminently playable, with multiple valid options.

Lovely strategic hole.

Yours and Bushy's "strategic options" are different. I thought it was all black and white here

I still only see one realistic option here for me. The other one (long to the left) might be risk/reward but there would never be a time when the reward for that risk would be even worth considering it as an option. The other 2 you've marked I see as much the same. I'd be pulling the same club here, week in week out. Not saying it isn't a cool hole, I've never played it but plenty of strategic options? Bit for me there isn't.

[PeteyD]

Yours and Bushy's "strategic options" are different. I thought it was all black and white here

I still only see one realistic option here for me. The other one (long to the left) might be risk/reward but there would never be a time when the reward for that risk would be even worth considering it as an option. The other 2 you've marked I see as much the same. I'd be pulling the same club here, week in week out. Not saying it isn't a cool hole, I've never played it but plenty of strategic options? Bit for me there isn't.

In what way are they different (other than one drew arrows and the other circles)? Add the prevailing wind, which should be SEer, basically down the line of the hole and slightly across to the right. For someone hitting it short like me there was not a lot of strategy, mishit driver up the right side near the tree and stuff the hole from there My game is in a better place now, I doubt I would hit driver, probably hybrid layup and bump an iron to the green.

[benno_r]

Yours and Bushy's "strategic options" are different. I thought it was all black and white here

Bushy's left arrow = my blue cirlcle, Bushy's middle arrow = my red circle, Bushy's right arrow = my yellow circle?? Not sure what you see different.

I still only see one realistic option here for me. The other one (long to the left) might be risk/reward but there would never be a time when the reward for that risk would be even worth considering it as an option. The other 2 you've marked I see as much the same. I'd be pulling the same club here, week in week out. Not saying it isn't a cool hole, I've never played it but plenty of strategic options? Bit for me there isn't.

Yes, for YOU, there might not be many options. But a hole is not defined on how it plays for one player, but how it plays for many players. Going way back to me saying people need to look at a hole "with their blinders off", this is a perfect example.

As for the advantage to going long left off the tee, sticking a sand wedge with a tailing wind is a massive bonus over landing a 7i.

[BUSHY]

As for the advantage to going long left off the tee, sticking a sand wedge with a tailing wind is a massive bonus over landing a 7i.

Especially given the mounding at the front of the green.

[3Puttpete]

So a well executed shot, taking on trouble is rewarded? A bad shot is likely to find find rough, and possibly be hittable, and a really terrible shot will find water?

Fairly decent definition of strategic golf.

Sounds like LGN 1

[Jazz18]

Bushy's left arrow = my blue cirlcle, Bushy's middle arrow = my red circle, Bushy's right arrow = my yellow circle?? Not sure what you see different.



Yes, for YOU, there might not be many options. But a hole is not defined on how it plays for one player, but how it plays for many players. Going way back to me saying people need to look at a hole "with their blinders off", this is a perfect example.

As for the advantage to going long left off the tee, sticking a sand wedge with a tailing wind is a massive bonus over landing a 7i.

You and Bushy have the long left option but you've got 2 options short of the middle bunker and he's got one short and one right of that bunker. You're both saying there's options, they're different, but there's options for both of you. I get it.

On this hole, unless it's blowing an absolute gale behind me, there's only one option for me every single time.

If the definition of strategic desgin is so black and white, how can it be strategic for one player based on level or style of play but not another? I know what ur answer is going to be, I just don't agree with it.

[BUSHY]

You and Bushy have the long left option but you've got 2 options short of the middle bunker and he's got one short and one right of that bunker. You're both saying there's options, they're different, but there's options for both of you. I get it.

You’re being too specific. WAAAAAY too specific. They’re not surveyors pegs they’re theoretical areas to aim for.

If you can’t clear the goonge on the left you can either be soft/safe and lay up well short, giving you a mid iron or more. Got a bigger set maybe you’ll try and sneak it as far up the gap as you can giving you less than a short iron. Hit draw/fade its a different proposition again.

If you’re no chance of making the goonge with your best I suspect you’re playing the wrong set of tees.

[benno_r]

Sounds like LGN 1

Do you think a shot from the thick rough at LGN, across a lake is the same as advancing it out of sandy waste area along a fairway?

[benno_r]

You and Bushy have the long left option but you've got 2 options short of the middle bunker and he's got one short and one right of that bunker. You're both saying there's options, they're different, but there's options for both of you. I get it.

On this hole, unless it's blowing an absolute gale behind me, there's only one option for me every single time.

If the definition of strategic desgin is so black and white, how can it be strategic for one player based on level or style of play but not another? I know what ur answer is going to be, I just don't agree with it.

Because it doesn't have to be. As long as there options for a decent majority of golfers, and is playable and not penal for the rest, it falls under the definition of "Strategic Golf Design".

So if you don't agree RQ 6 is strategic, it must be Penal or Heroic. Which fits better?

[Jazz18]

Because it doesn't have to be. As long as there options for a decent majority of golfers, and is playable and not penal for the rest, it falls under the definition of "Strategic Golf Design".

So if you don't agree RQ 6 is strategic, it must be Penal or Heroic. Which fits better?

Why would I bother trying to apply a definition to something that I've been saying (maybe not so skillfully perhaps) is undefinable this whole time?

You're both missing my point completely. It's silly to keep trying to explain it because we don't agree.

[BUSHY]

[benno_r]

Why would I bother trying to apply a definition to something that I've been saying (maybe not so skillfully perhaps) is undefinable this whole time?

You're both missing my point completely. It's silly to keep trying to explain it because we don't agree.

Because it has been defined. By 100's of competent and well renowned golf course architects. I agree with how they define it because they are the experts. The only person who seems to disagree with them is you.

[Jazz18]

Because it has been defined. By 100's of competent and well renowned golf course architects. I agree with how they define it because they are the experts. The only person who seems to disagree with them is you.

That's why there's no point to discuss it further.

Scientists used to say the world was flat. And that was considered fact, not an "expert definition".

[benno_r]

That's why there's no point to discuss it further.

Scientists used to say the world was flat. And that was considered fact, not an "expert definition".

For sure, and it is pointless when we try discussing what a hole is, if we can't agree what "is" is.

For the rest of us flat-earthers, RQ 6 is a strategic hole.

[3Puttpete]

Do you think a shot from the thick rough at LGN, across a lake is the same as advancing it out of sandy waste area along a fairway?

Oh my bad. I forgot about sprayability.