Flipping

[mrbluu]

Here is Mark Crossfield's take on flipping. He thinks that it's a result of trying to square an open club face....thoughts????


http://youtu.be/HR7Oj0jeT1s

[markTHEblake]

And coming from the inside

[3oneday]

Sounds and looks ridiculous. They guy in the video has zero compression at all.

[3oneday]

PS, go buy something, you'll feel better.

[TheNuclearOne]

So it's a long way of saying the guy has a very very weak grip? Not sure he's helped by that sudden snap load at the top either. That's a great drill tho, i've seen a top instructor promote it quite keenly.

[razaar]

I'm surprised that Cross field missed the main cause of this bloke flipping. Then again, maybe it is not a surprise since most teachers get confused when it comes to lower body mechanics.

The reason this golfer flipped is because he kept the weight on the inside of the right foot and coiled into internal rotation of the hip. This caused an early firing of the hip which slid across into external rotation of the left hip. Consequently any power this player had in the downswing was from the right shoulder.
The correct sequence is to shift the weight across laterally during the takeaway. Then coil over the right knee by turning the knee away from the target. This move externally rotates the right hip and internally rotates the left hip. The downswing is a bump towards the target which has both hips externally rotated (squat move). From there both hips fire into internal rotation which is the power behind great body rotation. The secret behind lag is great body rotation and keeping the right elbow ahead of the hands until just before impact.

Squaring the clubface is more complicated.

[markTHEblake]

Squaring the clubface is more complicated.

there is no need to square the clubface though, and I know you know this
This should happen automatically., if the golfer needs to attempt to square it, that simply means he is trying to put a bandaid on another problem.

[razaar]

I'm surprised that Cross field missed the main cause of this bloke flipping. Then again, maybe it is not a surprise since most teachers get confused when it comes to lower body mechanics.

The reason this golfer flipped is because he kept the weight on the inside of the right foot and coiled into internal rotation of the hip. This caused an early firing of the hip which slid across into external rotation of the left hip. Consequently any power this player had in the downswing was from the right shoulder.
The correct sequence is to shift the weight across laterally during the takeaway. Then coil over the right knee by turning the knee away from the target. This move externally rotates the right hip and internally rotates the left hip. The downswing is a bump towards the target which has both hips externally rotated (squat move). From there both hips fire into internal rotation which is the power behind great body rotation. The secret behind lag is great body rotation and keeping the right elbow ahead of the hands until just before impact.

Squaring the clubface is more complicated.

there is no need to square the clubface though, and I know you know this
This should happen automatically., if the golfer needs to attempt to square it, that simply means he is trying to put a bandaid on another problem.

Actually in creating lag in the downswing the right elbow needs to move inside the right hip which opens the clubface even more. Unless the player has the right moves the tendency will be to use the hands to square the clubface - which is a flip. The right moves keep the power from feeding into the club head until after impact.

[Mike O]

Many potential reasons for flipping the club through however I think the point he brings up is a very good one - A weak grip/open clubface alignment - and flipping does help close the clubface. This in turn can automatically create body motion to support that effort to close the clubface i.e. weight back etc. etc.

Defining a weak grip beyond the common golf culture description (hand position in relation to the ground or # of knuckles seen from the golfer) would also be helpful in making sure that the flipper doesn't have a weak grip (and everything that it requires). Things like clubface, clubshaft location when gripping the club, forearm condition, upper arm condition, all influence at address how weak or strong the grip is set for the required impact condition. Could discuss more if anyone is interested.

Certainly a closed stance with the face open to the target yet square to the body would also be a factor that would require a flip.

One of many other reasons for flipping would be the players effort to contact the "sense of their clubface" under the equator of the ball - not realizing that one cannot sense where ones' clubface is pointing in regards to loft and what they are sensing as their clubface is not their clubface but the longitudinal center of mass of the instrument (golf club). I know it sounds wrong for one to say that you can't sense where your clubface is pointing (loft) - but that is the case and I could elaborate if anyone is interested.

[virge666]

Does the reason really matter ?

I would have thought a way to stop it would be a better option . . .

[Mike O]

I would say that if you don't fully understand your subject matter then you are going to struggle. Everything in life and therefore movement is integrated, related - nothing exists by itself, approaching an item as if it does will not work, Understanding the "reason" is part of understanding the entire context of the problem. Why? Because each "reason" has a different solution(s) or way(s) to stop the problem than another "reason". So first you identify the reason and then you apply the appropriate solution/change. Now if there was only one reason then your post would make sense however there are many reasons. (Nothing above limits the possibility that one reason can have more than one solution - however a solution for one reason may not work as a solution for another reason - hence the need to understand the reason and then match a solution to it.)

More specifically, I wasn't going to spend the time to go through every reason and then describe the adjustments needed to "stop" i.e. correct it. Therefore I just put down a few concepts and instead of going into detail about the "way to stop it" - I noted if there was anyone who had an interest in further information I could elaborate because if you didn't already get what I was saying there wasn't enough information in the post to figure it out - most likely.

My guess is that your ? wasn't really a question however assuming it was - that's the best answer I can give. If you just want to keep it simple then a Golf Magazine would be a better route for finding a golf tip, because a golf tip is a solution implemented by the player without any understanding of the underlying need and reason for the change.

[Mike O]

Actually in creating lag in the downswing the right elbow needs to move inside the right hip which opens the clubface even more. Unless the player has the right moves the tendency will be to use the hands to square the clubface - which is a flip. The right moves keep the power from feeding into the club head until after impact.

Good point - flipping closes the clubface as does rotation of the body through the downswing - one may not know or understand how the body closes the clubface and use the flip to close the face.

[mrbluu]

I think most of u guys are missing the point. I realise there are multiple reasons to cause the flip, but all I wanted to know Does flipping help close the club face and would that drill he use correct it? ??

[Steve]

You can flip with an open club face Bluuu, you've done it before

[virge666]

Lots of things close the club face...

Lower body. Upper body. Releasing the club. Driving the legs. We could do this all day.

The important bit is the sequence and technique.

But back to the question.

No I don't like the drill because it requires manipulation of the club face as opposed to simple releasing the club through impact.

[markTHEblake]

No I don't like the drill because it requires manipulation of the club face as opposed to simple releasing the club through impact.

Like.

Treat the cause not the symptom.

[virge666]

Gents,

He is my 2 cents on it - it is very simplistic in the approach but the homework is daunting.

People flip the clubface through impact because they don't understand the release and what make the ball go straight. To quote The Golfing machine, and those here know I am not a TGM Druid... The release is the uncocking and rolling of the left wrist. Show me a video of someone flipping and I will show you someone not rolling the left wrist.

You can analyse it till the cows come home on why and what is wrong and which bits are meant to do what, but what it comes down to is a player who doesn't understand what good players do through the hitting zone. TGM call it educating the hands, but it isn't that easy because it is not just the hands you have to educate, it is all the other bits of the body that move to facilitate that movement, and it is bloody complex.

There is an ancient video in here somewhere with a bunch of swings I did on flipping. I still subscribe to that point of view. I am only regurgitating better and smarter people than me when I say that "The left forearm has to rotate" and the lower body has to be stable to store AND AIM the power that the rotation creates. That is a good place to start, but without the rest of the puzzle, you are going to hook the shit out of it.

For a more entertaining view on it... check out Manzella's "Confessions of a former flipper" and other videos where the coach advocates the clubhead above or outside the plane.

Enjoy.

(And a big welcome to Mike, nice to have another golf swing lad here)

[Mike O]

I think most of u guys are missing the point. I realise there are multiple reasons to cause the flip, but all I wanted to know Does flipping help close the club face and would that drill he use correct it? ??

Yes for question 1.

Depends on the reason that you are flipping for question 2 (as noted in my 2nd post above).

[talbo]

I think this guy is on the money

http://www.golfwrx.com/101874/the-ca...s-not-the-fix/

[razaar]

I think most of u guys are missing the point. I realise there are multiple reasons to cause the flip, but all I wanted to know Does flipping help close the club face and would that drill he use correct it? ??

At my old Club, I used to play with an ex-national Rollerblade rep who played to a low figure h/cap. He would close the clubface 30* at address and swing through impact with close to 9* of forward shaft lean. He considered hitting a golf ball easy compared to hitting a puk on the move while somebody is trying to cut your legs from under you.

[Mike O]

At my old Club, I used to play with an ex-national Rollerblade rep who played to a low figure h/cap. He would close the clubface 30* at address and swing through impact with close to 9* of forward shaft lean. He considered hitting a golf ball easy compared to hitting a puk on the move while somebody is trying to cut your legs from under you.

mrbluu - this is a post to be taken with a lot of respect. Knowledge is one thing and separate from the ability to play however I would guess that razaar is not only knowledgeable but he can play. Of course within his post as with any post there is a lot unsaid and assumed. A great post to ask more questions and dig deeper.

[mrbluu]

Thanks from the answers guys, that's kind of what I was looking for. I thought MC drill is more a band aid solution than going after the root cause. I know a few of my friends get lessons and they are taught with band aid solutions as opposed to fixing the actual issues.

For those who don't know I get my lessons from virge. My swing is a work in progress....when we are on that range together I hear, "thats shit" and "no, do that again"....

[Mike O]

(And a big welcome to Mike, nice to have another golf swing lad here)

Thank you Virge - very kind of you!

i'm going to start another thread on "what is release" and see if we can get some traction, as it is a related subject matter to flipping.
I have a wider context in mind but would want to get some "material" to use before addressing it. Hopefully there are a few that would be interested in digging deep down under and exploring some new concepts that are helpful movement tools for improvement.

[virge666]

Thank you Virge - very kind of you!

i'm going to start another thread on "what is release" and see if we can get some traction, as it is a related subject matter to flipping.
I have a wider context in mind but would want to get some "material" to use before addressing it. Hopefully there are a few that would be interested in digging deep down under and exploring some new concepts that are helpful movement tools for improvement.

Outstanding.

I am sure we can all share ideas. I am sure some people will get something from the discussion.... And some others will take the piss.

Let's do it

[Toolish]

His comments on the way the hands work through the ball are a little bit scary.

He seems to say rolling is unnatural and hard to do? Or am I hearing it wrong. Most people flip because they don't roll. But this guy with his weight not really transferring through would probably start snapping it if he did roll correctly.

Also, that drill without direction could lead to some massive issues as you are again teaching the hands not to roll. If you are hitting it straight with a massively closed clubface then you are going stupid with forward lean and hold off like Greg McHatton sort of teaches.

If you are flipping it work on rolling it instead, it is pretty bloody hard to flip and roll!