OZgolf Past and Future

[AndyP]

Hi all. Let me just put some posts together over time about the last couple of days.

This is my first post on the public forum for three weeks. I wasn’t posting here because I didn’t like a lot of what I read, and didn’t feel comfortable posting or reading some threads. I felt that the forum was nothing like the “vision” (I know that you love that word) that the site founders had for it, or what I thought it should be. I reduced my visits, and thought about the future of the forum and my involvement with it. I thought it might just be me, and I’d get over it with time.

Unfortunately, things happened on Wednesday night, where I felt temporarily closing the forum was the best thing to do. I thought things might escalate further, and I wanted to avoid this, as well as use the opportunity to discuss with the moderation team what we wanted to do with the forum, and then implement whatever changes there might be. I closed it because I felt it was the right thing to do at the time, and would avoid greater consequences. I am sorry for this, because it has upset a lot of members. I’m sorry if I scared you into thinking that the forum may not come back at all; I could not show my face at a golf day, if I was to do that.

Moderating has been very hard for all of us, as we do not like the conflict and the criticism that goes with it, particularly with those we are close too. I am far from an exception in this. However, I wanted the forum to be a place that I would enjoy being involved with again. To that end, I used Robyn, who was not concerned about having conflict with people she did not know, to take action to get the forum heading in the direction that I wanted it to.

I felt rushed into a decision on the forum and drastic action was taken. I knew there would be some support for it, but also some backlash and was prepared for it, but I have been surprised and saddened by how much backlash and the places it has come from. I regret that the actions taken were so suddenly, but not necessarily the actions themselves.

I will post again later, as this post has already taken a lot of time.

[AndyP]

My stress and anxiety levels are at high levels. I know there are more important things in life, but I am emotionally invested in this forum, so this affects me. I'll continue on.

Many members think the place is fine as it is. I disagree and so do many others, even if they are more silent than those that think nothing needs to change. People come to this forum for various reasons. Some come here to organise and join golf games. Some want to learn about golf. Others want to talk about equipment. And there are those that just want to buy and sell gear. Some are getting what they want out of the forum, others are not.

I'll tell you some of the reasons why I wasn't enjoying visiting the forum, and I know that these are the same reasons for others.

Members continually bagging the place and constantly pushing mods and the rules for who knows what reason. I didn't feel comfortable posting in my own forum because of it. Those who were banned fit into this category.

The treatment of new members. New members seem to have to go through some sort of initiation to be allowed to post an opinion or ask a question. The forum has not been very welcoming, and members seemed to get hassled for asking questions that should be expected from a noob.

Serious discussions don't seem to exist anymore with some members taking it off-topic with their own conversation or dismissing the topic/question itself.

So much niggle. Some of it might be banter between friends, but some is outright shit-stirring to get a reaction. It's not just the people involved that are affected, if affects anyone that reads the threads. I'm not naive enough to think that everyone will get along, but I there is too much negativity.

In essence, or the "vision" if you will (I am really regretting using that word), is that I expect respect to be shown to all members of the forum, such that they feel comfortable to post.

I am a member of other forums where it is not a problem, so I have really struggled to see why it is such an issue here. Over the years, I guess we have tried to make this happen in different ways, but have failed. I definitely take some of the blame for this, as I have been uncapable of making strong decisions. My job requires me to research, analyse, recommend and/or report for others to make the decisions.

I'm sorry that I can't address everyone's messages via PM or email. I read, re-read and read again what I write. That's the way I am, so these things take time. However, if I make a spelling mistake or a grammatical error, go nuts.

I'm sure I won't have addressed everyone's points, but I need to at least get down what I'm thinking/feeling before I open this thread up. And I'm not ready for the Q&A and criticism yet, and I don't know when I will be. I'd like people to at least read this and think about where I'm coming from, even if you do disagree. I may post more. I may not. It's sort of a bad time. I don't even know if posting these posts is a good idea.

We've already lost members that don't like how this was handled. We've already lost members that got sick of the things that I have written about above. We will lose more members. I have to accept that, because I can't please everybody, but it is hard for me to accept. For those that have left or want to leave, I will not hold hard feelings against you; I understand. For those that choose to stay, thank you and I hope the forum delivers on what you want from it.

[AndyP]

I have been told by a few people now that they fear that they might get banned if they speak up. That is not the case. I can see how that opinion has been formed and I am sorry for that.

The reason other people have been banned is because they have shown over time that they are not willing to post within the rules, despite multiple warnings, infractions or bannings. They may also continually express their displeasure at their previous infractions. Banning someone is not taken lightly, but it is done for the betterment of the forum. They are not judged by whether they are a “good bloke” in real life or not, they are judged by their actions on the forum.

Be constructive and don’t take pot shots. If you are unhappy with something in the future, email or PM a mod/admin. If you don’t like or agree with the explanation, you have to agree to disagree. Don’t go around the forum posting your displeasure about the forum and/or moderator actions. Heading off to other threads like “Things that disappoint” or “Things that piss you off” to make snide remarks isn’t helpful either.

[AndyP]

Thank you to all those that have sent me messages of support or concern, regardless of whether you are “on board” or not. It is good to know that there are many members out there who do support this, even though you are silent about it on the forum.

I’m going to open the thread for a short time for some comments or questions. I will periodically close it to allow me to reply, and make sure the thread doesn’t get carried away.

[markTHEblake]

my observation has been that moderating is inconsistent, sometimes over,,sometimes under.Just moderate strictly according to the rules definitions. Example obfuscating foul language is a clear breach and not subject to interpretations. That includes issuing infractions to those who complain about the rules and delete said posts. Might be worthwhile reading the rules at Whirlpool, they have a pretty good moderation system including a very definitive description of what exactly personal abuse is.

[Talart]

Well said Andy, As one of the silent members of this forum, after reading the information about why, I thoroughly agree with the action taken. It has not been easy for you and the moderators. Changing something that others do not think is broken is not easy.

I have spent more time than usual browsing the forums in the past week this observation you have made is accurate. "Serious discussions don't seem to exist anymore with some members taking it off-topic with their own conversation or dismissing the topic/question itself." Often I would drop in here and browse through and rarely contribute. I simply have a passion for playing golf, after a 3 year stint on my club committee have no interest in getting involved in more in-fighting. Yet in this case I will stand up and show my support as an 'outsider' on Oz Golf because Andy and the Moderators do have it from this quarter.

[BenM]

Be constructive and don’t take pot shots. If you are unhappy with something in the future, email or PM a mod/admin. If you don’t like or agree with the explanation, you have to agree to disagree. Don’t go around the forum posting your displeasure about the forum and/or moderator actions. Heading off to other threads like “Things that disappoint” or “Things that piss you off” to make snide remarks isn’t helpful either.

Guilty as charged. Mostly due to a mixture of shock and disappointment at the lack of explanation. Sorry.

The trouble is, what has been done is a big change from what has been done in the past, or at least it seems that way. People get used to things being a certain way and when it changes without notice they get their backs up. Nobody likes change, but there's less impact if the actions and the reasons for them are well communicated.

Once people start to understand all the whys and whens then they will either accept and adjust or they will move on. I have no doubt that this place will continue to be a good place to be.

[Webster]

Andyp, are you proposing to make any changes to the infractions system and/or the moderation process to address some of the concerns raised by yourself and the other mods (including those who have indicated they no longer wish to me moderators) .

[Dotty]

No taking pot shots? There goes half my posts.

No problem here with recent events and am a strong supporter of 'My forum. My rules'.

The punters just need to take a step back and stop believing the koolaid that 'People power brought down the Berlin Wall' and 'The customer is always right'.

[Vice MC]

I think its all justified.

[KristianJ]

To Jack's comment in brackets, I will step forward and say that I have indicated that I will step down at the end of the month.

But I have many reasons outside of OZgolf for this, relating to work, family and health reasons which are more important to me.

It is not a case of "This is ****ed. I want out".

Given that it is Andy's thread, I will make no further comment here.

[jimandr]

I'll still take potshots at you Dotty, and if we get banned we'll start a potshots only forum.

Seriously, I recognise the stress this situation has caused the Management Team, and I support the actions taken in one instance. The subsequent conduct of one party on ISG shows me that he and his supporters are better off on their own forum, and they have done the right thing and created one. Indeed, I think we would all be better off giving that site some publicity and support so that the dissenters have somewhere to go that isn't ISG. Once the dust settles we could even have a cooperative relationship (and an annual golf challenge).

It is obvious to me that the constant criticism has worn you all down, and it was unfortunate that a breaking point was reached. I can't really see how I can offer more tangible support, but if there is something I can do to help, I offer my support.

[Boonie]

AP,

I think the infraction system was a big mistake personally, and I think you should reconsider it. I get the point about mods not wanting to mod their friends, but I think you underestimate people a bit. If there is a set of clear guidelines and people genuinely do like each other and value the forum, they will take a rebuke here and there if it's in the best interests of all. A friendly rebuke is actually a lot more effective than an authoritarian one, which just creates more tension and angst IMO.

I say trust yourselves and your site by letting go a bit

Cheers, Rich

[markTHEblake]

Sorry to see you go KJ, your presence on the mod team would have been very valuable.

[AndyP]

my observation has been that moderating is inconsistent, sometimes over,,sometimes under.Just moderate strictly according to the rules definitions. Example obfuscating foul language is a clear breach and not subject to interpretations. That includes issuing infractions to those who complain about the rules and delete said posts. Might be worthwhile reading the rules at Whirlpool, they have a pretty good moderation system including a very definitive description of what exactly personal abuse is.

Moderation has been not so much inconsistent, but close to non-existent at times.
The rules we use were a combination of many websites that we use, however I will look at Whirlpool.

[AndyP]

The trouble is, what has been done is a big change from what has been done in the past, or at least it seems that way. People get used to things being a certain way and when it changes without notice they get their backs up. Nobody likes change, but there's less impact if the actions and the reasons for them are well communicated.

Once people start to understand all the whys and whens then they will either accept and adjust or they will move on. I have no doubt that this place will continue to be a good place to be.

The suddenness of it was definitely the wrong way to go, however it was felt that we have communicated the rules before and get frustrated with going through this every couple of years. If the forum the rules were enforced on a consistent basis by the moderation team, then we shouldn't need to do that.

I will be looking to go over the rules again, explain them more, if required, or the reasons for them. When that is done, I will re-post them and make them as visible as possible. I think there will be a point where people will have to opt-in to the forum again, or leave.

[BenM]

Sorry to see you go KJ, your presence on the mod team would have been very valuable.

Seconded. From the outside I thought your mod interactions looked very good (not that I was ever on the receiving end).

[Monsta]

While I dont post very often, I have nothing but support and admiration for the Mod's on this site, while I find it amusing to read some of the posts here, I can understand that some people may take it to heart. Trolling affects everyone in a different way....

Keep up the great work Andy (and other mods), I enjoy the forum and would hate for it to close down

[AndyP]

Andyp, are you proposing to make any changes to the infractions system and/or the moderation process to address some of the concerns raised by yourself and the other mods (including those who have indicated they no longer wish to me moderators) .

I don't think it is the infraction system itself that is wrong, it just wasn't being used. I believe we need more moderators, even if people are moderators in just one sub-forum. Many hands make light work, and the current team is either not comfortable giving infractions or doesn't have the time.

As an aside to that, I will explain OZgolf Mod. That account serves two purposes. Firstly, it is a vehicle for those of us who do not like the conflict of giving infractions. I have received abuse, legal threats and personal threats in my role, so I don't think it is wrong to use it to protect the moderators. Members react differently to receiving warnings or infractions. Secondly, it provides a united front from the moderation team. It's not one individual taking the action, it is the moderation team.

I'll also use the opportunity to explain what happens when a report or infraction is made. When this happens, a thread is created in the moderation area that all moderators can see, take action on, or discuss. When you claim bias from a moderator in the action that is taken, you are claiming bias from the whole team because all of us know about it. This is also the reason that there is a delay in action being taken, because a moderator might want someone else to "sign off" on an action.

[AndyP]

No problem here with recent events and am a strong supporter of 'My forum. My rules'.

It is that to an extent, but we believe it is what others want as well. I don't expect to be the only person posting here.

[Dotty]

It is that to an extent, but we believe it is what others want as well. I don't expect to be the only person posting here.

I wanted to post 'Our forum. Our rules.' (with Our implying admin team), but I didn't want it ambiguous with my next statement (if Our got interpreted as meaning all members).

[mrbluu]

I'm a believer in the forum is a benefit and not a privilege, I think some ppl either don't feel the same way or have forgotten.

[WBennett]

As former President of a Footy Club, we had a crisis meeting after Round 9 of EVERY year. Its human nature for people to push the rules and do their own thing, and if you don't nip it in the bud it grows, others follow a less than exemplary example and the world blows up.

Its one of those things that happens.

I apologise for the spray I posted elsewhere this morning which you have seen and responded to. This WAS my favourite place on the interwebs. Its now broken, and that disappoints me.

I'll still be here. It still has a good name. I'll still wear my Ozgolf Shirt and use my Ozgolf putter cover, and remember my Ozgolf weekends fondly. But through choices made this week, we lost a lot of what made this a great place (the people) and they won't be back in a hurry.

[AndyP]

AP,

I think the infraction system was a big mistake personally, and I think you should reconsider it. I get the point about mods not wanting to mod their friends, but I think you underestimate people a bit. If there is a set of clear guidelines and people genuinely do like each other and value the forum, they will take a rebuke here and there if it's in the best interests of all. A friendly rebuke is actually a lot more effective than an authoritarian one, which just creates more tension and angst IMO.

I say trust yourselves and your site by letting go a bit

Cheers, Rich

It was a suggestion made based on how another forum was run. The rules were already there, and we felt that the system enabled us to keep track of when things more, as well as, transparency on it within the moderation team. On thinking about it, I do not believe that the two other forums that I frequent and respect use infraction points, although there is a warning system. One of those forums is closed to the public though.

I will have a think about it, look at some other forums, like whirlpool and discuss with others.

[markTHEblake]

I also would like to think that the moderarators in most cases would Not take action until a post was reported.

A good example of my point might be the deliberate threadjacking in the proshop. Unless the OP reports it then it should be left alone.

Of course that doesn't apply in all cases.