mrbluu's hack fest

[Scifisicko]

Virge, that makes sense. I dont feel like i do anything with my hands at the top except feel the cup in my left wrist, yet the flattening still happens. You would think if anything, that feeling of creating a cup would be more likely to create a steepening than a shallowing....but it doesnt.

Ray, I have no idea how Dustin Johnson hits the ball so far with such a strong left hand grip and so much bow in his left wrist. I cannot hinge my wrist to generate any angle between the shaft and left forearm if my left wrist is bowed. Is he double jointed?

[virge666]

Binh,

You are absolutely fine with regards to the above. Your issue, as it always has been, is how you unwind the lower body. If you continue to slide into impact and rotate your hips, the club is always coming from the outside. Period. Drop your arms first then release the hands and clubhead by rotating the hips through impact.

Or as we say a lot on the range, hit the ball - then rotate.

Spinning your hips at a stupid speed doesn't make the arms go faster. It just leaves your upper body behind and throws the club outside.

If you want to hit is harder - swing your arms faster.

[razaar]

Virge
Your words about what I posted are not mine. My comment was that Bluu's swing is missing a micro move, left forearm supination during transition. Is he a student of yours?
By the way, it also requires a certain left hip action, external right shoulder rotation and transverse adduction of the shoulder.

[virge666]

Virge, that makes sense. I dont feel like i do anything with my hands at the top except feel the cup in my left wrist, yet the flattening still happens. You would think if anything, that feeling of creating a cup would be more likely to create a steepening than a shallowing....but it doesnt.

If you lower half works well - it doesn't really matter how you hold the club - you sort of work it out from repetition.

Ray, I have no idea how Dustin Johnson hits the ball so far with such a strong left hand grip and so much bow in his left wrist. I cannot hinge my wrist to generate any angle between the shaft and left forearm if my left wrist is bowed. Is he double jointed?

Look at any player on the tour at the top of the backswing.

Clubface pointing to sky = Shut Club at the top, so if it is shut at the top, you have to rotate the body more through impact to deliver a square clubface. Think DJ
Clubface pointing vertical or down = less body rotation to square the clubface. Think Hogan.

DJ is a shut face player which is why he has a tonne of body rotation on the way down. If you look at him in slow motion - every part of his being is rotating anti-clockwise. Arms, hands hips, legs... the lot.

Which is how he squares it all up.

The bit that a lot of people get wrong is the sequence - look up some videos from Peter Cowan for his spiral staircase explanation, they are as good as any. Peter Cowan teaches a bunch of tour players including Stenson, Westwood & Donald.

[virge666]

missing a micro move, left forearm supination during transition

Agreed - but how you get the supination is the issue here.

[Scifisicko]

Virge is that good advice generally or specific to Bluu?
Kinematic sequence of all pros shows hips turning very hard and fast from the transition, reaching maximum roitational sped and slowing down into impact, look at the hips of a young tiger or Jason Sadlowski and the belt buckle is pointing at the target when they hit the ball. The whole kinematic sequence of the down swing is speed generated from the ground as hip turn, into trunk, then arms and finally club, with each building on the speed generated from the last. "Hit then rotate" sounds completely wrong unless its feel rather than real.

kinematicsq.gif

hips at impact.jpg

[razaar]

Virge, that makes sense. I dont feel like i do anything with my hands at the top except feel the cup in my left wrist, yet the flattening still happens. You would think if anything, that feeling of creating a cup would be more likely to create a steepening than a shallowing....but it doesnt.

Ray, I have no idea how Dustin Johnson hits the ball so far with such a strong left hand grip and so much bow in his left wrist. I cannot hinge my wrist to generate any angle between the shaft and left forearm if my left wrist is bowed. Is he double jointed?

He is pretty awesome. He seems to skip the radial deviation of the wrists during the back swing and can create and hold 90* of clubhead lag with left wrist flex and right wrist extension with a long upright arm action. It is really cool to watch. He has to be the closest human swing to a man made one lever ball hitting machine. How he uses his pelvis/spine is pure text book.

[razaar]

Agreed - but how you get the supination is the issue here.

For you perhaps, not me. I tend to do it like Spieth (with a slightly stronger grip) - supinate the left forearm from the takeaway to impact. Saves having to think about it.

[virge666]

Virge is that good advice generally or specific to Bluu?
Kinematic sequence of all pros shows hips turning very hard and fast from the transition, reaching maximum roitational sped and slowing down into impact, look at the hips of a young tiger or Jason Sadlowski and the belt buckle is pointing at the target when they hit the ball. The whole kinematic sequence of the down swing is speed generated from the ground as hip turn, into trunk, then arms and finally club, with each building on the speed generated from the last. "Hit then rotate" sounds completely wrong unless its feel rather than real.

Sci,

I love your comments above.

This is where it gets a little complex. Especially through words on a forum. Lets see if I can get this across. Golf commentary simplifies this and IMHO misleads anyone trying to get that little tidbit off the TV

So we have this magic power move called "Clearing the Hips", which every bloody amateur thinks this means spinning the hips as fast as possible to start the downswing. Whilst this spinning of the hips feels dynamic and powerful, it does SFA. WHat you have to do is find a way to clear the hips so that you have a positive effect on the swing.

The good players and I know you are a decent player, will leverage the ground with their feet to counterbalance the downswing, usually pulling that left hip back whilst pushing that right shoulder through. this clears the hips. The faster you do this, the faster your swing is. So, you don't spin the hips, you use your knees and feet to push against the ground that has the effect of clearing the hips at speed. The only time you need to really spin those hips out of the way is when you have a stupidly strong grip like Furyk where if you don't add some extra clearance to the hips - you're just not going to get to the ball with anything like a square clubface.

What I am saying to Binh is to hit the ball, which by effect of motion will do all that lower body hip clearing cleverness automatically, then rotate through impact. Not to try and initiate the swing with the spinning of hips trying to get power.

And honestly - he has a bloody good swing, but I guess he wants the draw shot and is trying to get the club path from the inside with all manner of tips and ideas. Really all you have to do is not clear at all and you will get a hook, clear it too much and you will get a slice. Work on something in between. Justin Rose is a good model for this kind of swing pattern, he exaggerates both moves for moving the ball around with his practice swing.

[virge666]

For you perhaps, not me. I tend to do it like Spieth (with a slightly stronger grip) - supinate the left forearm from the takeaway to impact. Saves having to think about it.

What you do on the backswing has very little to do with what it looks like at impact.

How you work your lower body has everything to do with how it looks at impact.

[razaar]

What you do on the backswing has very little to do with what it looks like at impact.

How you work your lower body has everything to do with how it looks at impact.

True but they have to match up. A rotating release won't work with a rotating torso, as you posted about DJ.

[Scifisicko]

Sci,

I love your comments above.

This is where it gets a little complex. Especially through words on a forum. Lets see if I can get this across. Golf commentary simplifies this and IMHO misleads anyone trying to get that little tidbit off the TV

So we have this magic power move called "Clearing the Hips", which every bloody amateur thinks this means spinning the hips as fast as possible to start the downswing. Whilst this spinning of the hips feels dynamic and powerful, it does SFA. WHat you have to do is find a way to clear the hips so that you have a positive effect on the swing.

The good players and I know you are a decent player, will leverage the ground with their feet to counterbalance the downswing, usually pulling that left hip back whilst pushing that right shoulder through. this clears the hips. The faster you do this, the faster your swing is. So, you don't spin the hips, you use your knees and feet to push against the ground that has the effect of clearing the hips at speed. The only time you need to really spin those hips out of the way is when you have a stupidly strong grip like Furyk where if you don't add some extra clearance to the hips - you're just not going to get to the ball with anything like a square clubface.

What I am saying to Binh is to hit the ball, which by effect of motion will do all that lower body hip clearing cleverness automatically, then rotate through impact. Not to try and initiate the swing with the spinning of hips trying to get power.

And honestly - he has a bloody good swing, but I guess he wants the draw shot and is trying to get the club path from the inside with all manner of tips and ideas. Really all you have to do is not clear at all and you will get a hook, clear it too much and you will get a slice. Work on something in between. Justin Rose is a good model for this kind of swing pattern, he exaggerates both moves for moving the ball around with his practice swing.

Thanks Virge. BTW, you and Ray had a debate about my swing when I first joined the forum and digesting was a light bulb process that took me from 8 to 1 in 6 months (belated thanks to you both!). The moment was was you guys giving me a sense of how my legs and hips determine what my club does. In that process I wore the K Vest a few times and had a chance to talk to some people that live sequencing. What an elite sequence shows is everything turning and accelerating at the same rate from transition to roughly half way down. By everything I mean hips, trunk, arms and club. As long as everything is connected, the faster you turn your hips the faster the club will be travelling at impact (and the hips will obviously have cleared).

You can feel this by standing upright in a baseball type swing position (without a club) in an athletic braced position and turning your hips ~30*. Hips, trunk and arms start to turn at exactly the same rate and point at the same place (on the wall). As soon as you add a golf swing type motion (with arms falling) most will lose this connection. Beyond ~30* the elite sequence shows the hips start to decelerate and the trunk arms and club continue at roughly the same rate of acceleration and turn (until the trunk starts to slow etc). You rarely see a sequence where the hips turn faster than the trunk. Amateurs almnost always have the opposite problem, the over the top move comes from the club accelerating faster than the hips post transition. For most amateur sequences you typically see variations of a pattern where the lines all seperate at transition and fan out with arms being the next fastest, then trunk and hips slowest. The only time I have seen hips rotating faster than trunk is in the graphs of some elite hitters (often the long drivers) where the hip turn starts while the trunk/shoulders/arms are actually still turning back. Once the trunk and shoulders start, they accelerate and turn at the same rate as the hips but the hips saty ahaead of everything until they slow. What you say in post #134 makes total sense, but your earlier post stating that in order to fix his slightly OTT move he needs to "hit then turn" sounds counter productive.

I can see Blu has a good swing, it would be good for him to wear the K Vest.

Also, nothing Kostis or Miller say in swing analysis makes any sense to me...

[razaar]

I agree with Bobby Jones when he wrote the two most important elements of the golf swing are the grip and the transition. The grip is not difficult to master but the transition is extremely complex. It happens in a blink of an eye and then the swing is done. To get it right the player has to have an intimate understanding of the micro moves involved and how the pelvis and spine needs to work to perform the task and ensure safety. This info isn't available through normal teaching channels and has to be accessed through research. Golf has always been this way, at least we have access to material that wasn't available to previous generations of golfers.

[mrbluu]

Thanks Virge. BTW, you and Ray had a debate about my swing when I first joined the forum and digesting was a light bulb process that took me from 8 to 1 in 6 months (belated thanks to you both!). The moment was was you guys giving me a sense of how my legs and hips determine what my club does. In that process I wore the K Vest a few times and had a chance to talk to some people that live sequencing. What an elite sequence shows is everything turning and accelerating at the same rate from transition to roughly half way down. By everything I mean hips, trunk, arms and club. As long as everything is connected, the faster you turn your hips the faster the club will be travelling at impact (and the hips will obviously have cleared).

You can feel this by standing upright in a baseball type swing position (without a club) in an athletic braced position and turning your hips ~30*. Hips, trunk and arms start to turn at exactly the same rate and point at the same place (on the wall). As soon as you add a golf swing type motion (with arms falling) most will lose this connection. Beyond ~30* the elite sequence shows the hips start to decelerate and the trunk arms and club continue at roughly the same rate of acceleration and turn (until the trunk starts to slow etc). You rarely see a sequence where the hips turn faster than the trunk. Amateurs almnost always have the opposite problem, the over the top move comes from the club accelerating faster than the hips post transition. For most amateur sequences you typically see variations of a pattern where the lines all seperate at transition and fan out with arms being the next fastest, then trunk and hips slowest. The only time I have seen hips rotating faster than trunk is in the graphs of some elite hitters (often the long drivers) where the hip turn starts while the trunk/shoulders/arms are actually still turning back. Once the trunk and shoulders start, they accelerate and turn at the same rate as the hips but the hips saty ahaead of everything until they slow. What you say in post #134 makes total sense, but your earlier post stating that in order to fix his slightly OTT move he needs to "hit then turn" sounds counter productive.

I can see Blu has a good swing, it would be good for him to wear the K Vest.

Also, nothing Kostis or Miller say in swing analysis makes any sense to me...

What is a K Vest??

[Scifisicko]

Google is your friend! Explains it much better than I can.

It will map how your hips, trunk, arms and club move in relation to each other during a swing. You will be able to see what your hips are doing versus what they should be doing and then play around till you do it correctly and know what it feels like. My guess is it will show you are not moving your hips hard/fast enough. I say this because at impact i can't see much of your left butt cheek. Compare this to any pro and you will see their hips have turned a lot further than yours have at the same point. I know this seems contrary to what Virge is saying and he has worked with you in person, so take it with a grain of salt. The swing is about much more than just what your hips do.

Also your hips move towards the ball during the downswing. You dont see this move in any great golf swing. Its a rotational game, why would you want to swing around a plane that is steepening? Yellow line is where your bum was at transition. Also hard to get your hips out of the way when they are moving towards the ball.

bluu at impact.jpg speith impact.jpg

[virge666]

I have also had a good play with the K-Vest down at City Golf and also in Melbourne.

All I will say on it is that studying the golf swing as per positions is a slow way of doing things IMO, the motion and the way things are connected and the sequence of the golf swing is the important bit.

The next part with KVest,is that you are looking at the result of a golf swing - not the instigation of the golf swing. So even though you see the body doing A B and C, you don't really know what caused A B and C. Maybe the golfer only thinks about B and A & C is automatic. Maybe... the newer golfer only does C and a & B is automatic...

Huh,,, what ??? OK.

You're driver a car for the 2nd or 3rd time... trying to match up the clutch with the accelerator, whilst not hitting anything. Your brain is concentrating on your feet, the gearshift and then the road. If you have been driving for years, then most of the above is automatic, all you concentration on is not hitting stuff, your feet and hands do their thing automatically.

The same with the golf swing.

Personally, the golf swing has very little rotation in it, I throw my arms at the ground and the left knee pushes up against the downswing. It is more my legs going backwards and forwards then any real rotation.

But on video... there is a bump, and a very fast rotation of the hips and the hands go through impact. In fact I have NEVER actively tried to spin the hips... there just is no power in it, in fact, it is a power leak. As soon as you spin the hips - you will lose lag angle in the club shaft, your upper body will go backwards losing width and you cant get the club on an inside path.

So when you see all this massive rotation on K-Vest and on TV, (Rory comes to mind), the hips are NOT rotating they are just going backwards and forwards then rotating after impact.

Bullshit Virge !!! the K-Vest said there was 486 degrees of hip rotation from an elite level player...

Right, so someone explain to me the difference between pulling your left hip back and what appears to be hip rotation on a K-Vest.

That is my 2 cents on the K-Vest... great tool - but you have to have a lot more understanding to make sense of it display.

[virge666]

True but they have to match up. A rotating release won't work with a rotating torso, as you posted about DJ.

Of course it will. You can match anything up if you have the talent and a strong enough grip.

[virge666]

I agree with Bobby Jones when he wrote the two most important elements of the golf swing are the grip and the transition.

Transition yes... by why the grip ?

Transition and sequence are the two that I find the most interesting. The other stuff is "meh"

[razaar]

Sci, when you went through the k-vest experience, did the lads show you the pelvic movements that lock the spine into rotation?

[Scifisicko]

I have also had a good play with the K-Vest down at City Golf and also in Melbourne.

All I will say on it is that studying the golf swing as per positions is a slow way of doing things IMO, the motion and the way things are connected and the sequence of the golf swing is the important bit.

The next part with KVest,is that you are looking at the result of a golf swing - not the instigation of the golf swing. So even though you see the body doing A B and C, you don't really know what caused A B and C. Maybe the golfer only thinks about B and A & C is automatic. Maybe... the newer golfer only does C and a & B is automatic...

Huh,,, what ??? OK.

You're driver a car for the 2nd or 3rd time... trying to match up the clutch with the accelerator, whilst not hitting anything. Your brain is concentrating on your feet, the gearshift and then the road. If you have been driving for years, then most of the above is automatic, all you concentration on is not hitting stuff, your feet and hands do their thing automatically.

The same with the golf swing.

Personally, the golf swing has very little rotation in it, I throw my arms at the ground and the left knee pushes up against the downswing. It is more my legs going backwards and forwards then any real rotation.

But on video... there is a bump, and a very fast rotation of the hips and the hands go through impact. In fact I have NEVER actively tried to spin the hips... there just is no power in it, in fact, it is a power leak. As soon as you spin the hips - you will lose lag angle in the club shaft, your upper body will go backwards losing width and you cant get the club on an inside path.

So when you see all this massive rotation on K-Vest and on TV, (Rory comes to mind), the hips are NOT rotating they are just going backwards and forwards then rotating after impact.

Bullshit Virge !!! the K-Vest said there was 486 degrees of hip rotation from an elite level player...

Right, so someone explain to me the difference between pulling your left hip back and what appears to be hip rotation on a K-Vest.

That is my 2 cents on the K-Vest... great tool - but you have to have a lot more understanding to make sense of it display.

When I used the K Vest initially, my lines were fanned. To get them to converge I had to feel like my left bum pocket was being yanked back and slightly towards the target and also that the club was being left behind. This change was measured as an increase in the rate and speed of rotation of my hips (and everything else). I understood that I was trying to get the lines to converge and I could see the result of everything I tried immediately on the screen (like trackman showing AoA changing from shot to shot when you hit up more). I found this very enlightening and pretty quick (two sessions). It is a bit expensive and technical, and would not be for everyone.

Whether this hip move is decribed as a rotation or just a connected drive through the legs to pull the left hip back and slightly towards the target probably doesnt matter. Exactly as you say you are using your legs and the ground to drive the left hip back and the right shoulder down and through. Looking at Bluu he isnt doing it very well, although we agree it doesnt matter whether you call it rotation or legs driving, "hit then turn" sounds like the opposite of what he should be trying to do. Whether it is rotation or legs driving we should all be trying to get connected hips to somewhere near where Speith's are in the image above - before the hit. Bluu's are nowhere near.

It also doesnt help that he drives his hips towards the ball. Its pretty hard to move the left hip back when it is actually moving forward.

[Scifisicko]

Sci, when you went through the k-vest experience, did the lads show you the pelvic movements that lock the spine into rotation?

I dont think so, it was a while ago, can you explain?

[razaar]

You would know about it if you had been shown. I was just enquiring.

[Lagerlover]

CBC boys thing...

[3Puttpete]

CBC boys thing...

Pride swells the hearts

[razaar]

Ha-ha....I was close to spilling my guts on this until Larger's timely post in that other thread. We should leave Bluu and his coach to sort out his swing.