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Thread: Scifi's swing

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifisicko View Post
    Ray, i think my concept is wrong. I have been looking at DTL video of 22YOJS concentrating on his back leg/foot and how his hips move. I think my legs are passive and my upper body turns my lower body. I figure my right heel being off the ground at impact means i am not pushing the rotation through my right leg and my hips being only slightly open at impact means nothing is really driving the rotation.

    I had a crack at swinging from the ground up. Its really ugly but the ball is fizzing. Plane is way out for now but I think I am on the right track? Any tips on what I should be feeling?

    Sci, the swing should feel right and unhurried. We all feel movements differently, in my swing the sensations are that the swing is driven by the glutes and lower back myofacia. The hands and forearms rotate counter clockwise with the elbows close together moving on a path parallel to the ball/target line during both sides of the swing. The emphasis being on body rotation with minimal clubface rotation during the forward swing.

    The opposite to this is a body stall with lots of clubface rotation through the impact area. I changed to the other release pattern in my early 60s. Best golf decision I ever made.

    The bottom line is the release pattern through impact - everything we do in the swing boils down to how we swing the clubhead through impact. The stall method (kinetic link and/or lateral concepts) do work and some players have perfected the stall to square the clubface at point of release, but it is a very fine line as the clubface is flipping the toe over the heel. The other possible adverse consequence of the stall method is the swing becomes more leg driven (pushing upwards) which leads to flexion in the lower spine which inhibits rotation and opens the lower back to shear forces and potential injury.

    When I made the change, I drifted in no man's land for 12 months or so until I gradually understood the concept by being able to do it. Once I had the basic concept, I developed several exercise lessons to understand and feel how the pelvis and spine need to work during the swing. I still do these exercises every day to build up the myofacia of the rotational lines of the body.

    This article which is several years old now may give you a starting point.
    http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/un...g-your-muscles
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  2. #77
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    Thanks Ray, wife is a Yin yoga instructor and talks about fascia all the time, will get her to explain it to me. In the meantime I am starting to feel some connection to the ground. I figure if I am initiating and driving my hip turn with the inside edge of my right foot it has to stay on the ground until the weight transfers onto the left side. Looks to me that is what 22yoJS does. Also trying to get my hips turning earlier, Even before backswing is finished. Completely different feeling to the lower body being a passenger.,.
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  3. #78
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    Sci, handy wife to have around.☺
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  4. #79
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    Sci, some years back I came across this paragraph in a book about awareness in movement. Since then I have used it as a guage to differentiate between improvements in ability and sheer effort through force of will.

    "Lessons to improve ability are designed to expand the boundaries of the possible: to turn the possible into the impossible, the difficult into the easy, and the easy into the pleasant. For only those activities that are easy and pleasant will become part of a man's habitual life and will serve him at all times. Actions that are hard to carry out, for which man must force himself to overcome his inner opposition, will never become part of his normal daily life; as he gets older he will lose his ability to carry them out at all."

    This is a pretty accurate description of what happened to me in my golf swing when I hit the 60's.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  5. #80
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    Sci,

    I am with Ray on this one. The body has stalled and the arms are going past the body way too early. Try this for a quick test. Go and hit some balls and then work out where BOTH your shoulders and your hips are pointing when your arms go past your belly button. Now have a look at some of the better player swings and you will see a massive difference.

    OK - you should be with me now.

    The hooks come from the body stopping and the hands flipping past the body. You can see in all your swings how your lower half moves forward and your upper body hangs behind it. You have to get your upper body rotating to the left.

    It is all one big kinetic chain - your just not using it and you will lose both distance and consistency if you don't get the sequence right.

    Sean Foley does soem good videos on sequence on youTube. Plus Peter Cowan does it with with AXE drill. Gary Player has got similar videos with relation to using the body .

    Try a few of those to see if you can get the feel of the impact motion.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by virge666 View Post
    Sci,

    I am with Ray on this one. The body has stalled and the arms are going past the body way too early. Try this for a quick test. Go and hit some balls and then work out where BOTH your shoulders and your hips are pointing when your arms go past your belly button. Now have a look at some of the better player swings and you will see a massive difference.

    OK - you should be with me now.

    The hooks come from the body stopping and the hands flipping past the body. You can see in all your swings how your lower half moves forward and your upper body hangs behind it. You have to get your upper body rotating to the left.

    It is all one big kinetic chain - your just not using it and you will lose both distance and consistency if you don't get the sequence right.

    Sean Foley does soem good videos on sequence on youTube. Plus Peter Cowan does it with with AXE drill. Gary Player has got similar videos with relation to using the body .

    Try a few of those to see if you can get the feel of the impact motion.
    I was wondering when u were going to pop in

  7. #82
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    Thanks Virge, seems when you try to fix one thing everything else goes to kak. I had enough battery to grab a couple of swings front on when I got home. I couldnt really feel how I was driving the legs yesterday so the swing is not the same. I can feel that there is stuff all legs in it but to my eye the impact position is OK. I can get a lot more shaft lean than this and like hitting it low, but my elbows tend to get sore when I get too steep. I dont think the hook is a flip, I think it is caused by my tendency to get very shut at the top combined with an inside path. I have been playing with a relatively open club face and a cupped wrist at the top and haven't hit a pull hook for weeks. Anyway its a very weak lower body swing and I have been looking at Speith and his legs. I can see he really drives them to turn his hips and the work through his back leg keeps his heel down when he hits mid-short irons. My swing is very top drives the bottom, i can feel this as well as see it with the K Vest. Last few days I have been driving the legs and can feel how much power I have been throwing away. Club head speed is well up even if the positions arent so good. Here is the vid from today plus stills from impact and +1. Feel like the lower body is a sack of spuds in this swing but I can easily cover the left thigh with the hands at impact.

    151214impact.jpg151214impact+1.jpg
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  8. #83
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    Now stop it a few frames after impact.

    Stalled...

    Stop looking at impact. It will lie to you. Have a look a few frames after if you want to compare swings.

  9. #84
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    trying to keep moving...
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  10. #85
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    Sci, are you consciously trying to keep the weight on the front leg throughout the swing? Looks to me that the pivot is over the front leg. Just by looking at your body action, there appears to be no shift and unload of weight to the right side with resistance from both sides of the body. It is this combination of weight shift and resistance that stretches the myofacia of the pelvis and spine that creates a natural turn of the pelvis and torso. That is not all the story, but it is the key element in setting up a connected turn on both sides of the swing.

    My impression of what I can see of your swing, is that it is more around in contrast to under and up. Around the body swings have the spine in flexion throughout with a tendency to disconnect the left shoulder from the ribcage. This creates slack at the shoulder joint (through the shoulder blade being pulled away from the ribcage) which requires a slight turn of the shoulders to connect the arm to the trunk. Can you see the problem with this.

    Sci, the golf swing that we all aspire to own is a very complex arrangement of movements. What we see players do and try to interpret what we see, can lead us to form concepts about the swing that are way off base. An example is your description of JS leg work. His legs are reacting to pelvic actions and then adduct and internally rotate to give the pelvis a rotational boost coming into impact. His legs aren't driving the pelvic rotation but are creating a force coupling to reignite the pelvis/trunk rotation. We would miss this unless it was explained to us.

    My advice is to research the swing in depth to get the rewards for your time and effort.
    Last edited by razaar; 15th December 2015 at 09:14 PM.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  11. #86
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    Thanks Ray, yeah too much time with stack and tilt thats for sure. I dont like it much but it comes back when I am trying to do something different. Agree with what you are saying, but hard to look at Speith and the way he loads his inside right heel that he is not pushing hard off it, also the way his hips rise several inches through impact means he has to be driving with his legs...no? Anyway, you and Virge both think im stalling through impact and hands are racing past my body. I can see that. Ive always wondered whether my shoulders should be "out or in" and they are out for sure. I will try them in next.
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  12. #87
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    No mate, his right hip stays high during the downswing and the right leg remains extended. What we see is the left leg and hip flexing then extending just before impact as both hips adduct and rotate internally, as I mentioned above.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  13. #88
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    Ray apologies for this vid. Please turn off your sound and ffw to 3:25
    Sure looks like hips are rising...

    https://youtu.be/Phq4qV4VwL8
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  14. #89
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    Sci, the hips rise as a consequence of the internal rotation and adduction of the hips/legs. This is the movement that fires the rotation of the pelvis. Did you research "force coupling" as it relates to the pelvis in the golf swing. That person commentating was as helpful as a six day bike rider with a boil on his butt. What golfers need to know is the swing elements hidden from view that cause the movements we can see.

    One needs 3D camera with fast frame lenses to catch a glimpse of what the player is actually doing as against what we see in 2D from one or two angles.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  15. #90
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    Trying to stop flipping




    Rotating bloody hard so arms stay ahead of the club and still feel like I am holding off rather than letting the club go, left elbow is often bent in the follow through.

    impact -3.jpgimpact.jpgimpact + 3.jpg
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    Hey Scifi. It looks like your clubface in the latest videos is shut compared to previous ones. Previous videos, it seemed to be on plane. I know it's off topic slightly but just thought I'd mention it. Could be wrong. Caveat - I'm in no way, shape or form a PGA Pro, so please just take my observations with a grain of salt. Cheers

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    Yeah gone back to shut at the top. All I have to do is turn body and not flip to be square at impact. Otherwise look out ducks...I can cup my left wrist to be neutral but my stock shot becomes a fade and I feel I have to manipulate the club face and hands rather than just turn...not sure what to do, for the moment I think I'll stay shut and focus on getting rid of the flip. It's a nice way to play when it's working.

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    U need to bend your left arm through impact, Ray will show u how!!!

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    I quite like that swing, well done.

    Rotate your forearms if you want to get rid of the hold off

  20. #95
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    It is a slight bent left arm during the back swing and downswing that Bluu has difficulty with.
    Sci, there are other swing elements that contribute to casting and flipping besides rotation issues. I'll list a few of the common ones.
    Toe up of the clubface on both sides of the swing at hip high. This is a swing element that most golfers of my generation were taught to incorporate in our swing. In technical terms it is radial deviation of the wrists on both sides of release, which is a flip.
    Another is early internal rotation of the right shoulder during the downswing. This is a movement that causes the clubhead to move faster than the hands, which slows the hands and can even stop them.
    Not keeping the right elbow ahead of the hands loses clubhead lag on the downswing which slows the hands.
    Using the extensor muscles in the left arm and wrist before the follow through will slow that arm or will encourage a chest brace to move the arm causing a body stall.
    Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by razaar View Post
    It is a slight bent left arm during the back swing and downswing that Bluu has difficulty with.
    I don't have difficulty with it, it just think it looks shit.

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    Virge, thanks for your help so far, invaluable mate. Was re-reading some of your comments from 2 years ago about getting my girlie hips moving and I dropped the ball there, so have been giving it some welly with the hips. it seems to have given me better angles into the ball. I have more space for impact than I had 2 weeks ago and it feels like i am hitting the ball more out in front.

    Rolling the forearms to stop my shoulders being wrenched out in the follow through doesn't come naturally and the club is way overtaking the hands much earlier in the follow through (way before parallel). Is this bad and am i back to flipping?? Also I have no clue how to keep my right foot on the ground through impact, particularly as the right hip is moving up and around. Without an extendable leg it seems it has to drag the foot with it. Any hints?

    160208_lag.jpg160208_Impact2.jpg160208_impact + 3.jpg160208_impact + 6.jpg

    Last edited by Scifisicko; 8th February 2016 at 07:26 PM.
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  23. #98
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    OK Sci, Next step,

    Now we have to sort out that body of yours. All the fascination of the flat left wrist through and after impact has come at a bit of a cost.

    I want you to go and grab a few of the PGA tour swings, and ignoring the club for the time being draw lines on either side of the player at the same time as your three images above.

    1 line of each side of the player. Line from Shoulder to hip to knee to foot. then on the other side... shoulder to hip to knee to foot.

    Now compare your shots to the PGA players. I would even use a couple of female players and some older players like Rocco M.

    We need to get you covering the ball more.. you will see what i mean when you do the above. Presently you are adding a lot of loft at impact and losing a bit of power.

    Enjoy.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifisicko View Post
    Rolling the forearms to stop my shoulders being wrenched out in the follow through doesn't come naturally and the club is way overtaking the hands much earlier in the follow through (way before parallel). Is this bad and am i back to flipping?? Also I have no clue how to keep my right foot on the ground through impact, particularly as the right hip is moving up and around. Without an extendable leg it seems it has to drag the foot with it. Any hints?

    Release earlier, rotate harder.


  25. #100
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    Thanks Virge, not sure what to make of this, i will do Rocco tomorrow. What should I be trying to do - more spine tilt away from the target at address held through impact? The shot is a 2 iron launching at 9*. Im not sure I want any less loft?

    comp.jpg
    Last edited by Scifisicko; 9th February 2016 at 10:29 PM. Reason: wrong club
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