Tiger - gaaaaaawwwwnnnnnn !

[mrbluu]

What's your take on Tigger and left side pin placements?

He didn't seem to have too much issues with this at firestone....

Like a lot of players - much prefer a pin cut on the right of the green. Just easier, especially with super fast greens.

he seems to be able to hit nice draws with sort of 8 iron up... but below that - he seems to, not struggle, but not get the ball as close or try to get it as close to the pin.

I hear he is finally moving to a harder ball too . . .

I heard this too....

[Dingo]

Like a lot of players - much prefer a pin cut on the right of the green. Just easier, especially with super fast greens. he seems to be able to hit nice draws with sort of 8 iron up... but below that - he seems to, not struggle, but not get the ball as close or try to get it as close to the pin.
I hear he is finally moving to a harder ball too . . .

You mentioned some flaws in his mechanics when he turns the ball from left to right. How about when he is turning the ball from right to left?

[dee cee]

Bit harsh to wish the bloke never wins a major again, but to each his own.

I'm not sure if I understood the 1 dimensional players winning who couldn't move it both ways. They of course all can move it. Tell me Rory, bubba, Scott, Phil Mick, louis O, rose and Kaymer weren't workers of the ball and
'Flushers' of the ball.

Anyway Tiger will probably win again (major), not sure if the 19 is really gettable though.

[virge666]

You mentioned some flaws in his mechanics when he turns the ball from left to right. How about when he is turning the ball from right to left?

It is not a flaw in his mechanic. Draws by their nature are harder to control.

Think about your golf swing... every part of your body, the club head and shaft spins to the left. It is much easier to hold this off then go with the flow.

I'm not sure if I understood the 1 dimensional players winning who couldn't move it both ways. They of course all can move it. Tell me Rory, bubba, Scott, Phil Mick, louis O, rose and Kaymer weren't workers of the ball and 'Flushers' of the ball.

yep - they are all flushers, and where did they finish up on the weekend ?

No where...

[idgolfguy]

He'll win his by the end of 2016. He is growing into his new game. If he was worried at this stage, he'd be preparing more on the future courses.

Woods still doesn't trust his swing like he used to. Once he knows where his swing is at , he takes another two seasons to solidify. His second year is now.

[dee cee]

I see Virge, you were making reference to the PGA. Plenty of flushers thereabouts though.
If you think you don't have to be a flusher or mover of the ball to win anymore you've lost it... I say with respect and not trying to start something. I guess we all have opinions... Makes the world and forums less boring.

[Dingo]

It is not a flaw in his mechanic. Draws by their nature are harder to control. Think about your golf swing... every part of your body, the club head and shaft spins to the left. It is much easier to hold this off then go with the flow.

With my own game these days I think of the draw and the fade as coming from the same swing but a different alignment of swing path and club face at impact.

If he wants a draw what does Tigger do? Just not hold it off (or not so much) or does he use a positive action of some kind to produce a draw? If he did not hold off at all, where does the ball go? Does he have a "neutral" shot?

[virge666]

I see Virge, you were making reference to the PGA. Plenty of flushers thereabouts though.
If you think you don't have to be a flusher or mover of the ball to win anymore you've lost it... I say with respect and not trying to start something. I guess we all have opinions... Makes the world and forums less boring.

Missing the point mate.

If you setup a course like they did for the PGA, you alienate the ball strikers as these are guys who game is geared around being able to get themselves out of trouble with some clever shotmaking.

These guys have a game plan to take a few more risks and then use their skills around the green to keep there score going.

When you put these guys in 8 inch rough - they cant get any club on the ball to move the ball around. Phil has the best short game out there and he couldnt get up and down more than 30%, when on a normal course... that is more like 75%.

i am not saying it is bad - just saying it is boring.

If he wants a draw what does Tigger do? Just not hold it off (or not so much) or does he use a positive action of some kind to produce a draw? If he did not hold off at all, where does the ball go? Does he have a "neutral" shot?

Your not quite in the same level here mate. In a major, your landing zones are very very small. Hitting draws and fades change your trajectory and also your distance control.

He would have the shot, but whether it is worth bringing it out when the down side is chipping out of 8 inch rough to a tight pin... aint really worth it.

You will see that most guys have a preferred shape shot as it is more accurate to play this way. You get a whole fairway worth of miss instead of just half the fairway. In other words - their neutral shot... is a shaped shot.

[markTHEblake]

he is 37, he has 30 more to play until he is 45.

But all golfers expire at 43. He will win jack shit after that.

[virge666]

But all golfers expire at 43. He will win jack shit after that.

Someone forgot to tell Vijay.

[markTHEblake]

Vijay won his last major at 41

admittedly he got a couple of extra years for non-majors and then went to shite after 45. There is always exceptions
like the guy who actually got better in his late 40's - the one that lost a playoff in the Masters to Cabrera, but he doesnt count because he was nothing before that.

[dee cee]

Got it Virge, thanks for the clarification...

[Dingo]

Your not quite in the same level here mate. In a major, your landing zones are very very small. Hitting draws and fades change your trajectory and also your distance control. He would have the shot, but whether it is worth bringing it out when the down side is chipping out of 8 inch rough to a tight pin... aint really worth it. You will see that most guys have a preferred shape shot as it is more accurate to play this way. You get a whole fairway worth of miss instead of just half the fairway. In other words - their neutral shot... is a shaped shot.

So what does Tigger do when he wants to hit a draw?

[timah!]

So what does Tigger do when he wants to hit a draw?

He hits a draw?

I don't think you're getting it.

[Dingo]

He hits a draw?
I don't think you're getting it.

Plainly not. Virge gave us a detailed description of how Tigger hits a fade and the pitfalls he experiences in hitting a fade.

So how about the draw? Or doesn't he hit draws?

[virge666]

So what does Tigger do when he wants to hit a draw?

Come a little more from inside with an open club face and works the club head up a bit more.

He played a few of these shots when the pins were at the back of the green. You can tell by the follow through - his right shoulder will come through higher and the club will be worked more upwards. Think top spin on a tennis shot.

The main killer with the draw is distance control, if you get it a little wrong, you gain a bit too much distance, where as if you get the cut shot a little wrong... the penalty is not a severe. That is why you will see the shot a lot more when the pin is tucked back or on a tier at the back of the green or even if you can use the contours of the green

[virge666]

So how about the draw? Or doesn't he hit draws?

He hits the draw a bit more than he use to. Just look at where he is aiming and how he follows through. You will pick it up very easily.

As i said, the pitfalls is margin for error. In the old days with a soft spinny ball, the draw was more consistent. But nowadays, with the rock hard Pro V1, the cut shot is just an easier to hit and more consistent shot.

Even the Long drivers now are hitting fades.... who thought that would ever happen ?

[Dingo]

Come a little more from inside with an open club face and works the club head up a bit more.He played a few of these shots when the pins were at the back of the green. You can tell by the follow through - his right shoulder will come through higher and the club will be worked more upwards. Think top spin on a tennis shot.The main killer with the draw is distance control, if you get it a little wrong, you gain a bit too much distance, where as if you get the cut shot a little wrong... the penalty is not a severe. That is why you will see the shot a lot more when the pin is tucked back or on a tier at the back of the green or even if you can use the contours of the green

Interesting that Tigger changes his swing to produce a different shot. I would have thought that would lead to inconsistency. I've noticed different swing finishes but assumed they were unintentional.

[markTHEblake]

That is why you will see the shot a lot more when the pin is tucked back or on a tier at the back of the green or even if you can use the contours of the green

I try to play that little cut shot all the time and it works great, especially on my 18th that has water right half cut right up to the green. Except I end up pushing it and comes back with a nice draw right on the stick.
My mates reckon I am shit hot for hitting that shot, but they are only half right there.

[TheNuclearOne]

i dont think the courses he is playing suits his game, with the exception of a couple of majors, there never use to be rough that you couldn't get your club through. The setup of majors in my opinion has changed in the last 5 or so years to go from a players who has to play and putt well to a guy that has to hit fairways and wedge well.

Look at the guys at the top - they are all one dimensional and good wedge players (Duff wasn't but he picked a good time to be streaky) There was not one bloke there who was a flusher, could move it both ways and controlled the spin. All the exciting guys got left in the dust.

The other majors are also changing... Augusta not so much, but the Open is now putting a premium on pin placements and bunkering. The PGA was on a good course last year, but they got scared and did a royal Adelaide on Oak Hills.

Agree to an extent but not to the extent of 5 years or whatever without a major. Woods used to be able to win even on courses that didn't suit. Mickelson just won the British, and he won it without a driver.

Woods putted the eyes out of it one week and couldn't hit putts on his chosen line the next, which just so happened to involve a Major. Not good.

I can't fathom how he did not win one this year, given his form in everything else. It's mental now, tho his oft erratic driving and streaky putting don't help.

[virge666]

Agree to an extent but not to the extent of 5 years or whatever without a major. Woods used to be able to win even on courses that didn't suit. Mickelson just won the British, and he won it without a driver.

Woods putted the eyes out of it one week and couldn't hit putts on his chosen line the next, which just so happened to involve a Major. Not good.

I can't fathom how he did not win one this year, given his form in everything else. It's mental now, tho his oft erratic driving and streaky putting don't help.

Yeah 5 was a bit strong... definitely changing though. The british is always different, they just tuck pins and stimp the greens at 15 to protect the course. They also stimp the ground at 10 to emphasis control off the tee.

OK - here is my theory on Tiger...

Driving is fine - he bombs it, so it is never going to be higher than 50-60%. Look up the stats of "Total Driving", if he isnt leading it - he is near the pointy end. Tiger's driving is like the Wallabies scrum, use to be shit, but really it is just conception. he misses one or two drives - the commentators are all over him being scared with the driver. IMO, total hot air rubbish. he drove it fantastically at the PGA. His misses were minor, it was just the rough being stupid.

His wedge game is no where near where it use to be. he use to make it dance around the pin. Sort of the way Diff-Daddy did at the PGA. That is what i really see as missing. The 10-15ft chances are now 25ft chances and more, and the stat difference in making those two putts is MAJOR.

Mechanically - his putting is also bloody fantastic. His speed control I thought was also excellent. His short game is pretty bloody amazing too. But I think his green reading is not where it use to be. And for that - I have to suggest that Steve Williams is the missing link.

Anyone else think it is a coincidence that Scotty now is on every major leaderboard and Tiger is missing putts ??

Steve is a fantastic caddy - and i still think he is the difference. (or the trust is not there yet with Joe)

My 2 cents on it anyway...

[Daves]

From my viewing, I think you are pretty spot on Virge. Nothing at all wrong with his putting stroke from what I can see. But he seems to struggle with the read, at least on some greens. Yet at times he can still be very streaky, but I guess most tour players can on their day. It may just be a confidence thing, not committing 110% like he used to. That can happen when you start missing the ones coming back, something he hardly ever used to do.

Also agree re hitting his short clubs close. He still does it at times, but when he is off, he is well off.

I have no doubt Williams has been a big contributor to Scott, he seems to instil lots of confidence and reinforce it when it is needed. Whether Tiger is missing him badly I am not sure about, possibly.

[matty]

I heard an interesting stat on the radio this morning re woods and scott and duffner.
Went something like this. These 3 are the only ones to make the cut in the all of the last 8 majors.
Scoring over the last 8 majors-: scott -4, duffner +12, woods, +22
Scott had more birdies than duffner at pga, 18 to 17.
In terms of average placings scott is best in world over last 8 majors and therefore seems to be the world form player in majors the last 2 years.
There were a couple of other interesting stats that I can't remember.
Steve Williams factor? Could be something to it.

[mrbluu]

RE: Tiger's Putting...I think it's both reading greens and some mental issues in the majors. For the world class putter tiger is, he seems to have a lot of problems adjusting to the pace of the greens. That may be cos he is hitting it further away from the hole or something....

[razaar]

Tiger is 1 in World rankings. He has won 5 times this year against top fields. He is still Tiger being Tiger, except in the majors. It may be that many of his peers have finally caught up to him and he is not the dominant player he once was. It had to happen eventually. To me he is still the most exciting golfer to watch on TV. I have followed him on the course a few times and it is not the same as watching him on the screen.