One for the rules gurus.

[bergsey]

A scenario for you guys -

Stroke comp

Player hits tee shot into thick scrub about 20m from tee.

Player goes forward to search for the ball, can't find it quickly, so goes back to the tee to hit a provisional while partners continue search.

Before hitting provisional partners find ball.

Ball is in unplayable position, so player calls it unplayable and then hits shot from tee with the original ball (playing 3 from the tee).

Player hits this shot into the same area, ball is declared lost.

Player plays new ball from the tee (playing 5 from the tee).

Is all of this kosher as per the rules?

[mike]

Well if that happens on the first tee you shake hands and go home.

[Yossarian]

I'd think so.

[Johnny Canuck]

All is good.

However, he can't hit a provisional after going forward to search. If he had hit the provisional in this instance and then the partners found the first, the provisional would have automatically been the ball in play.

[TheTrueReview]

I bet he wished it was a stableford.

[markTHEblake]

Player goes forward to search for the ball, can't find it quickly, so goes back to the tee to hit a provisional while partners continue search.

It would seem obvious that this all occurred inside the 5 mins, so;

A golfer definitely cannot decide to hit a provisional once he has left the tee (basically) The rules define that as moving forward to look for the ball or something like that.

Before hitting provisional partners find ball.

If he had hit the ball, it would be considered the ball in Play. Based on the fact that it was his intention to unknowingly put the ball in play, does not count as a players spoken words does not make a ball lost - see rules definitions "Lost Ball"

Ball is in unplayable position, so player calls it unplayable and then hits shot from tee with the original ball (playing 3 from the tee).

Sounds right to me. Though I can see how this situation could have got quite messy if things got out of order, like if he hit the intended provisional, or found the original ball after 5 mins, and then went to the tee again.

[David Williams]

A scenario for you guys -
Player hits this shot into the same area, ball is declared lost.

You can't "declare" a ball lost... it only becomes lost if not found within 5 minutes OR another ball is put into play.

In this case, if he thinks the ball cannot be found so doesn't bother looking he is really just putting another ball into play...

It astounds me the amount of times I hear... "I declare that ball lost". The discussion that usually follows is an amusing one... (to me not them)

Decisions of the Rules of Golf 27/16

[bergsey]

It would seem obvious that this all occurred inside the 5 mins, so;

A golfer definitely cannot decide to hit a provisional once he has left the tee (basically) The rules define that as moving forward to look for the ball or something like that.



If he had hit the ball, it would be considered the ball in Play. Based on the fact that it was his intention to unknowingly put the ball in play, does not count as a players spoken words does not make a ball lost - see rules definitions "Lost Ball"



Sounds right to me. Though I can see how this situation could have got quite messy if things got out of order, like if he hit the intended provisional, or found the original ball after 5 mins, and then went to the tee again.

Yeah all happened in about 5 mins as the field was backing up... a bit of a calamity.

I said to the guy that one option was to re-hit from the original location (i.e. the tee). The others in the group didnt think this was the case though and said that he had to drop it within two clublengths or go back in a line between the ball and the pin.

Checking the rules again looks like i was right re the third option of hitting from the original spot. Can be re-teed as well if on the teeing ground....

[David Williams]

It can be re-teed.

It's amazing the amount of people that don't know the rules. Bergsey, well done for knowing the correct rule but you should've put your foot down and stood up for what you know is right

And to think each club gives out free rule books, but do you think anyone carries, reads or refers to them?

I love pulling out the rule book when the old guys have played by their version of the rules for years, and try to tell me I've done something wrong, and then won't listen when I tell them I haven't.

[IanO]

Yup .. I carry a rule book in my bag for exactly that reason ... these old guys who have played by what they think are the rules for years (without ever checking the rules book)

[bergsey]

Yup .. I carry a rule book in my bag for exactly that reason ... these old guys who have played by what they think are the rules for years (without ever checking the rules book)

One of the comments i got back was 'yeah i know they updated the rules recently so that one must be in there...'

[MegaWatty]

Two for you:

1. You bump the ball with your marker whilst marking it or removing the marker. I don't mean you drop your marker on the ball.

2. You have an unplayable so you take the two club lengths. You drop your ball inside the two club limit but it bounces outside of that limit.

[Johnny Canuck]

Two for you:

1. You bump the ball with your marker whilst marking it or removing the marker. I don't mean you drop your marker on the ball.

2. You have an unplayable so you take the two club lengths. You drop your ball inside the two club limit but it bounces outside of that limit.

1. Read this wrong the first time. No penalty, as long as you replace it.

2. Fine as long as it doesn't roll more than 2 clublengths or nearer to the hole.

[MegaWatty]

Number 1 is because of Padraig and Poults recently.

Number 2. So basically you can get 4 clublengths relief.

[Johnny Canuck]

Number 2, you can if you drop it right at the 2 clublength limit. It's 2 clublengths roll from where it strikes the course. I used to take advantage of this at KBay from time to time. You can get good roll off that short grass.

[MegaWatty]

That's exactly what I thought.

My thinking on 1 is that you can (have to) replace it without penalty but can't find the ruling.

[simmsy]

you were right then Mega! does that mean we can claim a refund on our losses yesterday?

[MegaWatty]

And rule 20-1 says I'm right about number 1.

[MegaWatty]

Also, if Yoss jumps into this thread, you're words of re-creating the lie in the bunker when we were next to each other were spot on.

[TourFit]

you were right then Mega! does that mean we can claim a refund on our losses yesterday?

Ehhh?

Also, if Yoss jumps into this thread, you're words of re-creating the lie in the bunker when we were next to each other were spot on.

Ehhh?

[MegaWatty]

You re-dropped your ball on 2 yesterday. I was thinking it was because it bounced outside of the 2 club relief point but wasn't sure of the rule.

And, I had to mark my ball in the bunker and we were discussing whether I get to rake the bunker back to how it was before replacing.

[Johnny Canuck]

Fit cheated?

son-i-am-disappoint.jpg

[TourFit]

Is there a penalty though for redropping your ball WITHIN the two clublengths...? I think not...it clearly states that you must be within TWO clublengths of the original position. So when I dropped it bounced OUTSIDE of where my tee marked the two clublengths limit. So I re-dropped WITHIN that two clublength limit...as far as I know you there is no pseudo 4 clublength limit. It can roll more than a clublength but only WITHIN that two clublength limit, but as soon as that distance is breached the ball must be redropped inside.


28 - BALL UNPLAYABLE

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must under penalty of one stroke:
Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.


As for your bunker shot on 8...

20-3 PLACING AND REPLACING

b. Lie of Ball to be Placed or Replaced Altered
If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:
(i) except in a hazard, the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;
(ii) in a water hazard, the ball must be placed in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the ball must be placed in the water hazard;
(iii) in a bunker, the original lie must be re-created as nearly as possible and the ball must be placed in that lie.

[MegaWatty]

I never said he cheated. I don't know why he re-dropped.

[Johnny Canuck]

As long as the ball strikes the course within 2 clublengths of where it originally lay, it can then roll up to another two clublengths and still be in play. Technically, you can just about get 4 clublengths away from the original position where relief was taken and have the ball in play.

Once you drop it, you cannot pick it up until it stops rolling, or unless it is virtually certain that it will not roll back inside the two clublength limit.

In your instance, you were incorrect in redropping as the ball did not roll more than two clublengths from where it struck the course. Penalty should be applied in this instance as soon as you picked up your ball after a legal drop.

I am so disappoint.