If I do this, will the ball do that?

[LarryLong]

Thought we need a thread for driving range tinkerer types to post up their latest wild theory so that knowledgeable people can tell them that they are stupid before they incorporate it into their golf swing and have to spend years trying to eradicate it.

Here's one to kick it off. I've got a fair bit of Over The Top action and a big slice going at the moment and my swing has just completely gone to the crapper. A couple of trips to the driving range have helped me come up with a theory. Does this one make sense and should I give it a go for a month?

In my bad swings, I'm finding that my left knee is moving forward towards the ball instead of going sideways towards my right knee. This often results in a BIG slice and lots of weight shift in directions that just feel wrong. I'm guessing that it pulls my body forward which starts off the OTT move? My original swing as a whippy flexible 17 year old used to involve pivoting on the left toe until the heel was facing the target on the backswing and then 'stomping' on the left foot as I hit the ball to release everything. Sounds whacky, but it worked well.

I can't seem to do that anymore because I'm too old and stiff, and I end up alternating between slices and snap hooks because I'm all over the place trying to keep up with my quick tempo.

So, today, I tried two things:

1. Doing the drill where you have one foot in the air on the backswing and the other in the air on the throughswing. The ball straightened up markedly although I didn't always get the contact 100%. Otherwise I was starting to consider doing that during my next round.
2. I then tried keeping my left knee's movement to a minimum, and only sideways if I could help it. I felt like I was a bit stiff and not giving enough to the ball, but I definitely hit it a bit straighter.

So, what would you suggest? Should I go with the minimal idea, or try to get back to the whippy left foot thing for better weight transfer?

[AndyP]

The power comes from 'here and here'.

[Dcanto]

Did you also consider trying the drill where you hit balls with your feet together?

[razaar]

Larry

I posted this some time ago but it may have some relevance to your question.

"
I don’t know if any of you guys have seen the video produced by Clem Naracott of Ben Hogan hitting practice balls at the Masters Tournament in the 1960’s. He asked Hogan if he could film him and Hogan said “Step inside the ropes”. The video goes for 20 minutes or so with Hogan hitting shots to his caddy with 9-iron to driver, and with a fag in his mouth. I have added to the tape a video of Hogan playing Snead at Houston, one of “Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf” series. Having watched the tape thousands of times, I consider myself a fairly reliable source on Hogan’s golf swing.

IMO one of the keys to Hogan’s swing which he did not mention in his book “Five Lessons” and is very apparent in his swing is how he used his hips and feet. The closest written description of this I have read was written by Gerry Hogan (an Aussie) in his book “The Hogan Manual of Human Performance – GOLF” on pages 82 & 83. –

“During the backswing, the right hip joint, acting as a mechanical pivot with the firmed right leg as a brace, moves through a shallow arc backwards and towards the left foot. This initiates a reaction on the opposite side of the body, which starts the sequence (turning of the trunk). First, the left hip joint responds by moving through a shallow arc slightly forwards and towards the right foot. It is important to recognize here that the right hip joint, having moved to the left, does not move back to the right at the start of the downswing. You see, by moving to the left, it has changed the angle of the right leg dramatically, enabling it to brace itself rigidly against the ground.
Now that the right hip joint is fully shifted to the left, the left hip joint must begin to travel back to a position where it can act as a pivot above a braced left leg later in the downswing. In fact, it moves through the same kind of arc as before, although in the opposite direction – that is back to the left. So while it is true that the left hip does move a little to the left as the downswing begins, the right hip remains stationary. What is actually happening here is not a turning of the hips but, rather, a mechanical exchange of pivots.”

To do this, I have to shift the weight to the heel of the rear foot and to the ball of the front foot in the backswing (there is a diagional push into the ball of the front foot as you turn behind the ball). To start the forward swing keep the shoulder attached to the chin and transfer the weight to the left heel turning the left hip behind you. Keep the upper body in its backswing position and let the turning of the hips, the trunk and the shoulders (in sequence) bring the arms and club down and around into the back of the ball.

[mike]

yes

[sol381]

your left knee should move towards the ball, not sway to your right knee. You just need to practice hitting the ball from the inside. Dont over complicate the swing. Seems like your thinking too much. just watch the back top half of the ball and try and smash it into the ground.

[LarryLong]

Did you also consider trying the drill where you hit balls with your feet together?

Not for this one - I think it might still encourage me to keep the weight on the front foot in the backswing. I really liked the result from the 'one foot to the other' drill - I was pretty much hitting the ball Gun Barrell Straight when I did this.

To do this, I have to shift the weight to the heel of the rear foot and to the ball of the front foot in the backswing (there is a diagional push into the ball of the front foot as you turn behind the ball). To start the forward swing keep the shoulder attached to the chin and transfer the weight to the left heel turning the left hip behind you. Keep the upper body in its backswing position and let the turning of the hips, the trunk and the shoulders (in sequence) bring the arms and club down and around into the back of the ball.

Thanks Ray, as always, it takes a lot of thought for me to get to the bottom of stuff like this because I don't really have a great deal of feel for where and how specific bits of my body move when I hit the ball, and I find it difficult to isolate them. It's all a bit of a rush for me. However, the last paragraph had some stuff in there that feels relevant.

yes

Thanks Mike. That's the answer I was really looking for. How much do you charge for lessons?

your left knee should move towards the ball, not sway to your right knee. You just need to practice hitting the ball from the inside. Dont over complicate the swing. Seems like your thinking too much. just watch the back top half of the ball and try and smash it into the ground.

That's like telling me to solve my problem by just not doing it anymore. I rarely think when I'm swinging, let alone over-think - this whole idea of trying to fix a problem is new to me. I've always just trusted my natural swing and tried to hit it harder and it used to work for me. Not so much at the moment.

[matty]

Larry

I posted this some time ago but it may have some relevance to your question.

"
I don’t know if any of you guys have seen the video produced by Clem Naracott of Ben Hogan hitting practice balls at the Masters Tournament in the 1960’s. He asked Hogan if he could film him and Hogan said “Step inside the ropes”. The video goes for 20 minutes or so with Hogan hitting shots to his caddy with 9-iron to driver, and with a fag in his mouth. I have added to the tape a video of Hogan playing Snead at Houston, one of “Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf” series. Having watched the tape thousands of times, I consider myself a fairly reliable source on Hogan’s golf swing.

IMO one of the keys to Hogan’s swing which he did not mention in his book “Five Lessons” and is very apparent in his swing is how he used his hips and feet. The closest written description of this I have read was written by Gerry Hogan (an Aussie) in his book “The Hogan Manual of Human Performance – GOLF” on pages 82 & 83. –

“During the backswing, the right hip joint, acting as a mechanical pivot with the firmed right leg as a brace, moves through a shallow arc backwards and towards the left foot. This initiates a reaction on the opposite side of the body, which starts the sequence (turning of the trunk). First, the left hip joint responds by moving through a shallow arc slightly forwards and towards the right foot. It is important to recognize here that the right hip joint, having moved to the left, does not move back to the right at the start of the downswing. You see, by moving to the left, it has changed the angle of the right leg dramatically, enabling it to brace itself rigidly against the ground.
Now that the right hip joint is fully shifted to the left, the left hip joint must begin to travel back to a position where it can act as a pivot above a braced left leg later in the downswing. In fact, it moves through the same kind of arc as before, although in the opposite direction – that is back to the left. So while it is true that the left hip does move a little to the left as the downswing begins, the right hip remains stationary. What is actually happening here is not a turning of the hips but, rather, a mechanical exchange of pivots.”

To do this, I have to shift the weight to the heel of the rear foot and to the ball of the front foot in the backswing (there is a diagional push into the ball of the front foot as you turn behind the ball). To start the forward swing keep the shoulder attached to the chin and transfer the weight to the left heel turning the left hip behind you. Keep the upper body in its backswing position and let the turning of the hips, the trunk and the shoulders (in sequence) bring the arms and club down and around into the back of the ball.

I prefer Player's explanation. Clear the hips and let the arms fall into line (on plane). At least I think that's what he's getting at.

Larry, the range does my head in. I try things. They work beautifully. Was even meaning to draw club after club the other day just because I wanted to. Whacked a few fades in. Easy. Get to the course and it's a case of 'please go somewhere in the vicinity'.

It's all mental. Just hit it. The best days I have are when I have forgotten where the last six holes have gone and wouldn't know my score.

One thing that helped me the other day was opening my stance a fair bit and giving myself more room. I also have the OTT problem. Worked well. Am starting to feel what pro's have been saying about giving yourself room. Tomorrow on the course will be the test!

[LarryLong]

I know what you mean matty. I'm really just trying to get to the stage where I actually hit it well at the range. I've got no illusions that this will carry over to the course.

[rubin]

I got this tip from a pro when I was younger, apparently its a tip Nicklaus used originally and Tiger uses when he "winds up" too much...

At address, angle your feet out slightly in a \ / sort of fashion.
This has the effect of tightening things up slightly and correct knee movement.

If I have problems slicing, this usually corrects it, but you have to mentally focus on doing it.

[Veefore]

I got this tip from a pro when I was younger, apparently its a tip Nicklaus used originally and Tiger uses when he "winds up" too much...

At address, angle your feet out slightly in a \ / sort of fashion.
This has the effect of tightening things up slightly and correct knee movement.

If I have problems slicing, this usually corrects it, but you have to mentally focus on doing it.

If I'm slicing, which is almost never nowadays. I do almost the opposite. More like this, / | (mostly) or this / \ if I'm also overswinging.

I'll actually turn my left foot in and concentrate on keeping my left shoulder behind the ball through impact.

I have always found that turning my feet out led to loose swings for me as there was not enough stability. I could sway back, forward, left or right. With my feet turned in my base is rock solid.

[razaar]

If I'm slicing, which is almost never nowadays. I do almost the opposite. More like this, / | (mostly) or this / \ if I'm also overswinging.

I'll actually turn my left foot in and concentrate on keeping my left shoulder behind the ball through impact.

I have always found that turning my feet out led to loose swings for me as there was not enough stability. I could sway back, forward, left or right. With my feet turned in my base is rock solid.

Well said Veefore. Having the front foot turned inwards makes it difficult to clear the leading hip causing the arms to scissor coming into impact thus closing the face. This was a method used to hook by many a good ballstriker before Nicklaus appeared on the scene. IMO Jack put teaching the golf swing backwards by 30 years.

[virge666]

The power comes from 'here and here'.

Couldn't agree more.

"it is 1000 times stronger"

[LarryLong]

Tried to keep things quiet down there (that's what she said) and swing a little more inside-out today while still trying to find 'the power'.

Alternated between good, GBS ones and big slices with the driver. Pretty happy with that, Rome wasn't built in a day. Thought I was in for a ripper day when the first two drives hit adjoining fairways though.

[BayBum]

My main drill for OTT is to take my stance over the ball then shift my right foot back to where the toes of my right foot are inline with the heel of my left foot.Swing naturally from there & you will always strike through the ball from the inside.



Even when im playing well i will always use this as my main drill.Not only does it stop me comming over the top but if im striking well it will produce a perfect draw that i can repeat swing after swing.