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24th February 2010 08:36 AM
#51
Junior Member
Fairweather club-member
Originally Posted by
razaar
Welcome Martinez.
Are you tied in with Ian Triggs and Chris McCourt?
No I'm not, but I have a healthy respect for both. Chris does all my clubs and that of my students, he is very very good in that regard.
Originally Posted by
markTHEblake
Some of us have to work!
Poor bugger.
Originally Posted by
Eag's
Well it certainly looks simple enough and it does make a lot of sense.
If I had a motto regarding how I see the game, that might be it.
Originally Posted by
3oneday
Now, back to the swing..... My interest has peaked.
From what I have seen, you "aim" your hips and legs to just in front of the ball but your shoulders are square to the target ?
After a while (I think during #3) it reminded me of a pro who once said the first part of your body to reach the ball was your left shoulder ?
That's a good summation of our intent with the address. You set to the shot, and the target, not to a swing. The idea of setting everything parallel to the line is counter productive imo.
In Golf we have the perfect opportunity to choose our position, other sports you have to often move quite a long way to get in good position to strike the moving ball.
Ironic isn't it, that we don't make full use of that advantage....I include myself until recently (when this occurred to me). I'm now halfway to impact before I've even moved the club, and I have a really good relationship to the target and a good sense of where the target is in relation to the other target, the ball. That's what I build peoples swings around, not lines on a screen and not positions. The good thing has been, they hit better positions on the screen anyway.
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24th February 2010 08:55 AM
#52
Senior Member
Touring Pro (PGA)
Originally Posted by
martinez
That's a good summation of our intent with the address. You set to the shot, and the target, not to a swing. The idea of setting everything parallel to the line is counter productive imo.
In Golf we have the perfect opportunity to choose our position, other sports you have to often move quite a long way to get in good position to strike the moving ball.
Ironic isn't it, that we don't make full use of that advantage....I include myself until recently (when this occurred to me). I'm now halfway to impact before I've even moved the club, and I have a really good relationship to the target and a good sense of where the target is in relation to the other target, the ball. That's what I build peoples swings around, not lines on a screen and not positions. The good thing has been, they hit better positions on the screen anyway.
Vivien Saunders (my favourite swing guru) advocates this address set up also, i.e. the address position should be a rehearsal of the impact position. She states that the more similar the address position and impact, the better the swing will be. "The feeling at address should be of posing the impact position for a photograph - some suggest with the hips a touch open, to produce the exact 'impact'". An advantage with this setup is that it tightens the swing earlier without the evil slack creeping in, so sequencing the through swing can begin in the final stages of the backswing. Good stuff.
Last edited by razaar; 24th February 2010 at 09:05 AM.
Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?
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24th February 2010 09:19 AM
#53
Senior Member
Touring Pro (Nationwide Tour)
TGM has a similar idea called impact fix...determine your impact alignments and work everything back from there.
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24th February 2010 09:20 AM
#54
Senior Member
Grand Slam Winner
This sounds very fad-like to me.
No offence.
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24th February 2010 09:20 AM
#55
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
Aren't all "ideas" fads ?
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24th February 2010 09:22 AM
#56
Senior Member
Grand Slam Winner
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24th February 2010 09:23 AM
#57
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
It's just that some generate millions whilst some don't
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24th February 2010 09:53 AM
#58
Junior Member
Fairweather club-member
Yeah, I guess that's similar. To me we need to be more forward at impact than we are at address if we have made a dynamic move at the ball toward the target. So I wouldn't say I'm in the impact position at address, but directing my body toward the direction of that impact position.
Either way, both ways are far better than being stuck at the ball with no intent of being in position to hit it.
Definitely not impact fix, I advocate mid body hands position with little to no shaft lean.
I don't really care if it's a FAD or not (no offence taken mind you), all I'm trying to do is help people play better golf, I have found something that has transformed my game, and I was a pretty decent player before that transformation, it's helping others. I would rather help a million hacks get better than one tour player. I'm not interested in changing the minds of swing aficionados who have their own method and agenda. Not trying to prove anything. It's all about enjoyment and good golf.
Last edited by martinez; 24th February 2010 at 10:04 AM.
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24th February 2010 10:19 AM
#59
Senior Member
Grand Slam Winner
Originally Posted by
martinez
I don't really care if it's a FAD or not (no offence taken mind you), all I'm trying to do is help people play better golf, I have found something that has transformed my game, and I was a pretty decent player before that transformation, it's helping others. I would rather help a million hacks get better than one tour player. I'm not interested in changing the minds of swing aficionados who have their own method and agenda. Not trying to prove anything. It's all about enjoyment and good golf.
Fair enough. What works for some people will not work for others.
Forgive my skepticism. But what you have said so far sounds like one of those full page advertorials which you see deep inside some magazines.
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24th February 2010 10:27 AM
#60
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
The proof I guess would be in the pudding. How quickly could one expect improvement, improvement measured in handicap reduction?
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24th February 2010 11:02 AM
#61
Junior Member
Fairweather club-member
Originally Posted by
sms316
Fair enough. What works for some people will not work for others.
Forgive my skepticism. But what you have said so far sounds like one of those full page advertorials which you see deep inside some magazines.
I welcome your skepticism. But so far you haven't offered anything but skepticism.
Originally Posted by
3oneday
The proof I guess would be in the pudding. How quickly could one expect improvement, improvement measured in handicap reduction?
I generally see immediate improvement, but the more important thing is lasting and continued improvement, that should be the goal. Most people improve fleetingly then regress.
If we take Iain as an example, he is a 10 HCP. We just started working together, but if he drops his HCP by a couple of strokes in the next couple of weeks, I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't have been surprised if we had made no changes if he did the same thing. The important thing is his ball has gone from curving 10-30 yards to 0-5 yards and he's hitting it more solid....and he knows why, or at least better than he did before. His scores will drop, sooner and later.
So I guess as a teacher, I would not be concerned if the HCP didn't drop immediately, I would be concerned if the player didn't see how it would/could drop significantly in time.
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24th February 2010 11:39 AM
#62
Senior Member
Major Winner
Originally Posted by
martinez
Yes, you are wrong Virge. Leading the backswing with the right elbow taking it away would be very detrimental to what I'm trying to do. There would be some crossover with a lot of methods, but it's not JH one plane.
Martinez - WELCOME !!
Totally agree on crossover - a few questions and love your comparison to other sports - I am huge fan of this.
What and who are your influences ? Where and when did you play ?
on the swing methodology...
What do you lead the backswing with ? ..or how do you start the backswing?
It looks like you change planes on the downswing - sort of driving the right shoulder and flattening it out... am i right with this ? If not - what is your ideas on the transition ?
Your swing looks like any normal one-plane swing pattern - identifying the pattern is easy - how you get to the pattern is the fun bits. I love the "bow" takeaway, I would like to know why you change it to "crossbow" on the way down.
lastly - you say that you rotate your "right side behind your left hip", can I get some more info on this. I cant see this in your swing.
Great to have a real teaching pro here !!
Last edited by virge666; 24th February 2010 at 11:52 AM.
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24th February 2010 01:40 PM
#63
Senior Member
Major Winner
Originally Posted by
virge666
lastly - you say that you rotate your "right side behind your left hip", can I get some more info on this. I cant see this in your swing.
Ignore this - I see what you are doing. Your backswing pivot matches this on the downswing.
That is a sensational idea for the downswing as long as you keep that right shoulder up and flat.
Wonderful way to get the feeling. Cheers.
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24th February 2010 03:43 PM
#64
Junior Member
Fairweather club-member
Originally Posted by
virge666
Martinez - WELCOME !!
Totally agree on crossover - a few questions and love your comparison to other sports - I am huge fan of this.
What and who are your influences ? Where and when did you play ?
Aside from the great teachers I have been fortunate enough to have had, John Kelly and Bob Weir my major influences in recent times have been Ben Hogan, Tiger Woods and Abe Mitchell
on the swing methodology...
What do you lead the backswing with ? ..or how do you start the backswing?
I want my hands to go directly in.....inside my arms, a physical impossibility but it sets the correct dynamic sequence. I believe this is what Hogan talked about when he said in 5 lessons that the correct sequence for the backswing is HANDS/ARMS/SHOULDERS/HIPS. If done the way I describe it ends up blending the hands, arms and shoulders as a unit, also described in 5 lessons
It looks like you change planes on the downswing - sort of driving the right shoulder and flattening it out... am i right with this ? If not - what is your ideas on the transition ?Curious as to what planes you see me using....will help me answer your question better......You are correct in that the right shoulder is a key component of that
Your swing looks like any normal one-plane swing pattern - identifying the pattern is easy - how you get to the pattern is the fun bits. I love the "bow" takeaway, I would like to know why you change it to "crossbow" on the way down. Best description I can make for why I do it is to imagine you are going to absorb the torque of the Golf club. The club wants to open on the way back and close on the way through by virtue of the CoG being outside the shaft.....this is a visual and 'feel' of countering those forces. Moe called it leading the lag....lagging the golf club all the way. It is a very prevalent move in golfers swings (Julius Boros is a prime example of a great player that this motion is blatantly obvious in, more subtle but still there in Tiger) before the advent of modern instruction where we wanted pretty pictures on both sides of the ball
lastly - you say that you rotate your "right side behind your left hip", can I get some more info on this. I cant see this in your swing.
Great to have a real teaching pro here !!
Great questions, my answers in bold above.
Cheers
Martin
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24th February 2010 04:15 PM
#65
Senior Member
Touring Pro (PGA)
Martin you mentioned that your teaching method is influenced by three golfers, I almost fell off the chair when I read Abe Mitchell was one. His book "Down To Scratch" is one of my favourite instruction works (written by a player), even though it was published in 1933. Far out!
Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?
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24th February 2010 05:20 PM
#66
Junior Member
Fairweather club-member
I have "length on the Links" and "Down to Scratch" in my collection. Great books. His description of how to use the body in the Golf swing is far superior imo, to anything you will read from the pre-eminent bio-mechanics people today.
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24th February 2010 07:16 PM
#67
Senior Member
Major Winner
Originally Posted by
razaar
Martin you mentioned that your teaching method is influenced by three golfers, I almost fell off the chair when I read Abe Mitchell was one. His book "Down To Scratch" is one of my favourite instruction works (written by a player), even though it was published in 1933. Far out!
Do you remember reading that one as a teenager Raz?
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24th February 2010 07:24 PM
#68
Senior Member
Touring Pro (PGA)
Originally Posted by
adlo
Do you remember reading that one as a teenager Raz?
Not sure if I could read back in those days Adam. If I did , it would have been Tarzan books. The only golf I saw was in the finger stall at the movies when they showed movietone shorts of Bobby Jones demonstrating the various golf shots. In one clip he was rebounding balls off a tree trunk (green behind him) over a bunker to a flag stick. I remember a few of the balls went into the hole. In others he was hitting 3-wood shots at the camera. You could put a blanket over all the balls. He demonstrated chipping the ball on the green over stymes, straight into the hole.
Last edited by razaar; 24th February 2010 at 07:28 PM.
Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?
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24th February 2010 07:26 PM
#69
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
Martinez, you didnt mention Jim Hardy in any of that yet it seems that you teach along those lines. Not that Jim's method is exclusive anyway (obviously - its just his distinction between one and two plane that is, sort of)
anyway interested in your thoughts on One Plane from the Hardy book
--
Criticism doesn't bother me, as it means I am doing something and people are watching.
Handy-Cap
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24th February 2010 07:46 PM
#70
Junior Member
Fairweather club-member
Originally Posted by
markTHEblake
Martinez, you didnt mention Jim Hardy in any of that yet it seems that you teach along those lines. Not that Jim's method is exclusive anyway (obviously - its just his distinction between one and two plane that is, sort of)
anyway interested in your thoughts on One Plane from the Hardy book
The reason I didn't mention Jim Hardy is that I don't teach along the lines of Jim Hardy. There might be some cross-over as I said, but from what I have seen of his teaching (which doesn't include the book) , there are significant differences.
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26th February 2010 10:46 AM
#71
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
You know, I just tried the "knees and hips turned to in front of ball" in the crapper. I'm thinking this could solve my block (ie, sliding of hips), might give it a workout tomorrow
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26th February 2010 10:48 AM
#72
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
Originally Posted by sms316
Without rules there is anarchy.
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26th February 2010 11:22 AM
#73
Senior Member
Touring Pro (PGA)
Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?
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26th February 2010 11:30 AM
#74
Senior Member
Golf Hall of Fame Inductee
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26th February 2010 12:53 PM
#75
Senior Member
Touring Pro (PGA)
Originally Posted by
3oneday
see, now I almost got caught with what you said re the slightly open stance. I don't believe that is correct. Feet are still aligned at target but hips and knees are aligned in front of the pill.
That's the way I read it anyway.
But I might duck back to the dunny to check
Make sure you are standing when you check.
Abe's words not mine, he goes on to say the slightly open stance helps in clearing the left hip. And you thought it was Gary Player who discovered this? Abe would have picked it up from somebody before him.
Consciousness and awareness - awareness is being aware of what is happening and being aware of what is happening within ourselves while we are conscious. Where did I leave my glasses?
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