Martinez19696

[markTHEblake]

TheDart is a real nice bloke

would a nice bloke speak like that about a fellow professional? thats quite unprofessional.

[razaar]

I was mucking around on our practice fairway today and gave Martin's method a tester. Not having access to his vid, I used the method described by Abe Michell. The interesting thing for me was it felt like a closed to open swing but the ball shape was a baby draw. The only difference I felt was the right hand at the top being perpendicular with the back of that hand facing the right shoulder. It is a pretty strong position and is a governor preventing an over-swing. My best results were when I concentrated on the right elbow pointing in a forwards direction in front of the hip (first belt loop) during the downswing. I came away thinking that one needs strong, flexible rotator cuffs, especially in the right shoulder to get success with this method.

[henno]

I came away thinking that one needs strong, flexible rotator cuffs, especially in the right shoulder to get success with this method.

Well, this certainly isn't for me then.

[virge666]

I was comparing the Dart to myself. Oh never mind.

You sell yourself short sir ! I have never met anyone with more knowledge of obscure early twentieth century golf literature.

... And your doing it wrong still. Stop changing your swing to try and do what you think it is that Martin wants.

As the dart says. He is using feel to give you good mechanics. Not changing your mechanics per se.

[idgolfguy]

A perception of what is happening than actually doing it?

[razaar]

You sell yourself short sir ! I have never met anyone with more knowledge of obscure early twentieth century golf literature.

... And your doing it wrong still. Stop changing your swing to try and do what you think it is that Martin wants.

As the dart says. He is using feel to give you good mechanics. Not changing your mechanics per se.

I have no idea what Martin wants...$35 maybe. I love to tinker with all different swing techniques.

[virge666]

A perception of what is happening than actually doing it?

Easy answer - Shit yeah.

You go for a lesson - that person shows you your swing on video. He will show you what he wants you to change... all of this is piss easy. Now comes the hard part.

1. How do you get a student to make a change ??
2. Which bit do you change ??

Every single teacher has a set of drills, movements, positions, procedures, fundementals that they have had good experience using on students. Some students even have full swing methods to administer. Some are weird and wacky, some are based on a particular kind of swing and some follow newer technology. They all have a speil and they all use bullshit marketing words and promise everything before Saturday.

For mine - Martin's unwinding of the right arm on the downswing is absolutley brilliant. It is a great way to teach the downswing and release of the golf club. It follows the same teaching as guys like Nick Faldo through to Peter Cowan. I am still not so sure about the backswing or pitchng - but I have not put much work into it and it still may grow on me.

The problem is that you get guys like Ray who are trying to stab his right pocket with his right elbow and adding all kinds of weird and wacky shit to it without even seeing the 3 vids that he has made and therefore concluding that you need super dooper rotator cuffs to perform this eronious movement. When really the movement is just another way to explain the holding of lag on the downswing...

Faldo used the term of skimming stones.
Greg Norman used throwing sidearm
Peter Cowan uses the Axe drill
Adrian B used the analogy of holding a TV remote
Edwin uses the "Greg Norman secret" teaching aid
Ernie Els said it was like holding a waiter's tray
Seve said it was a Karate Chop
TGM use dowell drills and RH straight delivery path.

Martin uses the unfurling of the right arm downwards.

It is all the same shit - just a different smell. Once you understand that every teacher is trying to teach you the same thing but just a different way, the whole shebang gets a lot easier to digest.

[virge666]

would a nice bloke speak like that about a fellow professional? thats quite unprofessional.

Couldn't agree more. But it is his golf forum and he is pushing his clinics and methodology.

When you are selling TGM - your not going to push someone elses methods, are you ?

[razaar]

Virge

Stab the right pocket...add all sorts of weird stuff?...read Mitchell's pages, youngster. If the rotator cuffs are inflexible with this method you will end up with a rising right shoulder and right elbow past the midway point and the whole point of loading the right hand will be for naught. I'll bet London to a brick that this is the part of the swing that is causing issues with those who are having trouble getting it. This may even apply to yourself. Keeping the right elbow down and close to the left elbow during the downswing is and has always been part of the fundamentals of the golf swing. It makes sure that the right arm doesn't get left behind at the start of the downswing. I am glad that you have come across some words that turned on the light.

[virge666]

Virge

Stab the right pocket...add all sorts of weird stuff?...read Mitchell's pages, youngster. If the rotator cuffs are inflexible with this method you will end up with a rising right shoulder and right elbow past the midway point and the whole point of loading the right hand will be for naught. I'll bet London to a brick that this is the part of the swing that is causing issues with those who are having trouble getting it. This may even apply to yourself. Keeping the right elbow down and close to the left elbow during the downswing is and has always been part of the fundamentals of the golf swing. It makes sure that the right arm doesn't get left behind at the start of the downswing. I am glad that you have come across some words that turned on the light.

Ray,

Your describing a motion. But like most things you post - your are describing a motion in isolation. it is one of my pet hates with TGM as well. Everything is broken down into separate things described with a scientific notion that alienates every golfer that hasn't a degree in Anatomy and Kinetic chains. Everyone is so caught up in decribing what is the right thing to do - they forget that some people have to teach it.

Lets take a 10 year old's view at Martin technique.

The Good Bits

The setup to the left is a way to get the upper body stable and to stop the student taking the club too far inside on the backswing. It sets the body in a powerful and athletic position

The right arm twirl takeaway is way to get the right arm to fold on the backswing and get to a solid position at the top with out the body reverse pivoting. This gets the arms coiled around the body, not the other way around.

The unfurling of the right arm on the downswing is his way to get the club to the ball without activating the right shoulder. It also has the added advantage of the right elbow getting the left hip out of the way on the downswing. (it's downside is that the student may slide into impact instead of clearing the left hip, leading to high blocked shots, a change of setup posture can fix this though)

The Bad Bits

Personally - i believe the action promotes the correct rotation of the body which is where the power is coming from. When shots are played that don't require the body to participate such as 1/2 shots, pitching and chipping. the added movement is a hinderance. There is too much hand and arm action. At present I prefer Phil's method for these shots.

The takeaway is screaming for people to over do it and take it miles outside with a shut clubface then come down steeply resulting in all kinds of shots.

The slide on the downswing is a major issue for golfers who already have a degree of lateral slide on the downswing.

Yeah - you can read more into it and analyse each bit, breaking it down into minute parts and focusing on one section... but you miss the point. All he is trying to do is describe a feeling to give people better mechanics.

The main problem is not rotator cuffs, forearms or anything else physical. The problem is that most golfers are not on single figures, so they have no freaking idea what it feels like to release the golf club or rotate their body correctly. So when you give them a move like Martin's or Faldo's or Cowan's, they immediately dismiss it as incorrect or too hard or not the "right way for them". (the ball almost immediatley goes violently left too )

IMO - the aim is to give people on a forum, or a clinic or one to one, a move that they can repeat, that is better than their current motion. These small steps lead to more discoveries and this leads to more parts of the swing slipping into place. Analysing until you can find something you can interpret as wrong does little to promote or encourage discussion. A read of the Marty thread on ISG has a bunch of choppers all following Dart's lead without any real discussion or appraisal.

Enjoy

[Daves]

Thanks Virge, great post imo. I am just another chopper so won't spruik anything other than I found the clinic day spent with Martin the best learning about golf I have been able to achieve so far. He makes you think beyond the mechanical, whilst still very much focusing on swinging the club (back to impact position).

As to the thoughts and opinions of some old "fossils", well they have their place and most things have been discovered before, so anything "new" is really off old ground any ways. However, I try to keep an open mind and am reminded that Archeologists for years gave us their theories on dinosaurs, prehistoric life etc. It took Geologists to prove that they were mostly wrong! Same fossil, different story!

[markTHEblake]

Love your comparison Daves. facts do not speak for themselves, but have to be interpreted according to a framework.

[Daves]

There is of course more than one way to get the wind up happening!;

[moree golfer]

...I found the clinic day spent with Martin the best learning about golf I have been able to achieve so far. He makes you think beyond the mechanical, whilst still very much focusing on swinging the club (back to impact position).

I am still hoping Marty holds another clinic soon. I sure need the help.

[virge666]

There is of course more than one way to get the wind up happening!;

What a dead set cracking find !!!

[martinez]

Wow...bunch of sycophants on that isg forum...think I'll stay away from that place. I have learned my lesson about trying to make clear to people what I am about....when they have already made up their mind.

[Daves]

Wow...bunch of sycophants on that isg forum...think I'll stay away from that place. I have learned my lesson about trying to make clear to people what I am about....when they have already made up their mind.

Yep, pointless to even try. They are all too busy trying to pry apart the pages of their copies of TGM with their other hand.

[idgolfguy]

It is a little like religion. With zealots, there isn't any easy way to have a calm, lucid discussion.

[idgolfguy]

Thanks for the explanation, Virge. Have been trying to get this to work from the videos.

Now, I can see where it is going.

[virge666]

Thanks for the explanation, Virge. Have been trying to get this to work from the videos.

Now, I can see where it is going.

As I said - the fundementals differ ever so slightly between patterns, if you got Hogan and Martin side by side on video. They will look pretty similar. Though I can't see anything of the right arm twirl in the 5 lessons . . . not the lead lag takeaway.

But they both look the same . . . .

(feel vs real)

[markTHEblake]

Wow...bunch of sycophants on that isg forum...think I'll stay away from that place.

apparently you are a lost bastard anyway so you might not be able to find it!

It is a little like religion. With zealots, there isn't any easy way to have a calm, lucid discussion.

You really mean its like any religious debate, which means topics like Mac v Windows, iPhone v Android, OEM v Component, TGM v not TGM, Liberal v Labour, Qld v NSW, Collingwood v Carlton, Intel v Amd, and the list goes on. Just because someone takes one side because they beleive they are right, that does not make them a Zealot. It takes two to have a calm, lucid discussion and any time where one side makes a comparison like you have done, that would make them just as much a zealot because neither side is right.

The insignificant number of ISG'rs who have taken it upon themselves to openly criticise have really just shot themselves in the foot, as it is giving Martin some awesome free advertising - his name is mentioned in IseekGolfs weekly newsletter for a start (the list of popular discussion topics). Amongst all the negativity there will still be some people who will be curious and look in to it further, they are the the important ones. The ones who hate it were never going to be converts anyway. Marty can just look at every new post in that thread and make "ching ching" sounds.

[martinez]

Apparently I couldn't help myself...The Dart just went too far as far as I was concerned....I don't need to justify myself to some random FIGJAM like him. I am much more interested in helping my students than arguing with people like that.

As I said - the fundementals differ ever so slightly between patterns, if you got Hogan and Martin side by side on video. They will look pretty similar. Though I can't see anything of the right arm twirl in the 5 lessons . . . not the lead lag takeaway.

But they both look the same . . . .

(feel vs real)

Lead lag takeaway is in 5 lessons...it all just depends on your comprehension of what is written. I will admit that I would not have seen it that way...before. The right arm twirl is a well disguised move.

[Yossarian]

Martin don't waste your time over there, I've seen it before and it'll only get dragged down to their level.

[virge666]

I am off to read my 5 lessons again...

Just a little tid bit for us Hogan fans.

Ben Hogan was NEVER outside the top 10 for every major from 1940-1960. Never once outside the top 10 for 22 years !!!

[idgolfguy]

...Just because someone takes one side because they beleive they are right, that does not make them a Zealot. It takes two to have a calm, lucid discussion and any time where one side makes a comparison like you have done, that would make them just as much a zealot because neither side is right.

It is the excessive or zealous belief in all things TGM is what I was referring to by the few that aren't prepared to have a lucid discussion.

I am TGM trained and still see the value in evaluating what other perspectives may offer.