Martinez19696

[virge666]

Allrighty lads I am back and flying... not sure if i can take it to a course... still got a few hooks and fats shots.

Video is here

http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php...l=1#post602763

[martinez]

@Raz
Let me apologize also and that way we're both off the hook and can get on with whatever it is we do when we're not arguing on the internet.
The quote that stuck out at me the most from that very good book you cited is that having the perfect swing would most likely not make you a great Golfer...as there were so many variables in the game itself. The other thing is that I have taught for ten years...and not only do none of my students or I have the perfect swing....neither does anyone else.

I think it's pretty clear what he thinks, given he's running clinics with you.

And looking at the vids, 'with' seems the operative word. It's just I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, and that reverse rotation - the cliff and the ribbon thing. I watch him swing and I can't see any of what he's talking about in action.

Besides, a pro like Elkington has different needs. He felt he lacked power, and on today's ever longer tournament courses that's a disadvantage. The average golfer probably doesn't need extra power, but more control and consistency. What I don't get is how your teaching on the power move helps with consistency.

I'm not even sure what the debate/issues over what you're teaching is in this thread - that's the way these analytical golf discussions go. That's why I think you and Raz have opposing ideologies that probably amount to the same thing, it's just getting lost in the textual confusion of writing about it. That's what I was getting at in my previous post.

As for nothing new...I don't think people believe there's anything new to learn about the golf swing. I think, like me, often people are just trying to get it explained in a way they can make work. While there's something to be said for working it out for yourself, often what you think you're doing right is wrong, based on either a misinterpretation, misapplication or allowing bad habits to creep in while you were working on some other aspect.

All I'm trying to do is get people to look at the swing in a different way, a way that I believe very strongly will give them more power and more consistency. I don't have the problems you allude to in the last paragraph of your post. This is because I know what I'm doing, why I am doing it and how to do it. My teaching is based around giving people the same level of ownership of what they are doing.....it's not a matter of connecting dots on a 2d image, and it's not guess work.

[Hogan's Bogan]

All I'm trying to do is get people to look at the swing in a different way, a way that I believe very strongly will give them more power and more consistency. I don't have the problems you allude to in the last paragraph of your post. This is because I know what I'm doing, why I am doing it and how to do it. My teaching is based around giving people the same level of ownership of what they are doing.....it's not a matter of connecting dots on a 2d image, and it's not guess work.

Not sure if we're both on the same page with what I'm supposed to be alluding to. I was referring to myself really. Power I consistently have enough of, consistency/accuracy I don't. I've been trying to work out what this move is that you say provides it, but I guess that's why the vid is for sale.

[martinez]

I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about your game and where you see the inconsistent issues stemming from. The reason my method provides greater consistency of strike is that the set up and takeaway help set up a good sequencing and that makes ituch simpler to return to a position at impact that makes hitting the ball first a great deal easier.

It also helps you know where the face of the club is at all times in the swing and you effectively will be swinging the club into a slot, not merely hoping to time everything perfectly and drop it in...if you swing the hands and arms in the direction prescribed. It is not a proscribed position, only the player can determine the best position for them with this method.

Lastly it is for sale...do you suggest I just give the tape away and go get a job? :-p

[Hogan's Bogan]

It also helps you know where the face of the club is at all times in the swing and you effectively will be swinging the club into a slot, not merely hoping to time everything perfectly and drop it in...if you swing the hands and arms in the direction prescribed. It is not a proscribed position, only the player can determine the best position for them with this method.

Lastly it is for sale...do you suggest I just give the tape away and go get a job? :-p

Ah look, I'm intrigued by your approach, and it's good to see someone has made it work putting it into practice. The only thing I'm having second thoughts on, is that in all the vids of yours I have seen, and the elk clinic, and the info you've given on here - I have no idea what you are talking about.

[martinez]

And you wont until you try it.....many people have made it work putting into practice.....by applying it to a Golf ball. I'm here, and will continue to be, to answer questions that anyone has.

[markTHEblake]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I never really got it either until I got the live lesson from Marty and then watched the videos again, and combined with my golf pro friend Doug helping me who is taking all this at a faster rate than I am.

Maybe you also need some 'mates' to work with?

[Hogan's Bogan]

And you wont until you try it.....many people have made it work putting into practice.....by applying it to a Golf ball. I'm here, and will continue to be, to answer questions that anyone has.

K. How is what you're advocating different to what Hogan teaches in his (and everyone else's since then) fundamentals? That is, what is the difference between what you're teaching, and the left wrist cocking at the top of a backswing?

How does this one movement help with consistency and ensuring the correct position at impact? You say above that it does, but not how.

How does what you teach give you feel for where the clubhead is, and where do you feel it?

Is answering any of that giving anything away?

[martinez]

K. How is what you're advocating different to what Hogan teaches in his (and everyone else's since then) fundamentals? That is, what is the difference between what you're teaching, and the left wrist cocking at the top of a backswing?Merely cocking the left wrist does nothing to contain the mass of the club within your control....assuming you mean cupping the left wrist...that alone does not cover it either. Cupping the left wrist (Hogan's admitted secret) does help contain the club, but the motion I prescribe has everything performing the same containing motion as the left hand does when the left wrist cups

How does this one movement help with consistency and ensuring the correct position at impact? You say above that it does, but not how. It is not one movement as such....it is a complete movement involving everything, I use the right arm as the catalyst for it mainly because it is the MOST different part of the motion...also because most people who play are right handed people playing right handed. Of course, I would advise that left handers playing right handed focus more on the left arm making the motion in this direction, but also support the motion with their weaker side. Nothing ensures the correct position at impact more than knowing what the correct position is to the players view over the ball. That said, this method will challenge the body the least to return to that position

How does what you teach give you feel for where the clubhead is, and where do you feel it?You are always aiming at the mass of the club with both hands...just as you are at address and impact...you never lose that. An example of a DIFFERENT way than what I prescribe would be someone that pushes their hands wide from their body at the top of the swing as that is away from the mass, or someone that endeavors to keep their right arm close to their body as that prohibits them aiming at the mass also. The only thing place you can truly feel the face of the club is in your awareness of where it is in space relative to you....you can pick any point of you to refer it to...but the reason you will be able to feel and know where it is is that you have not added to it escaping you by working it away from or around you...but toward you.

Is answering any of that giving anything away?

Questions answered in bold in quote.

Those are really great questions and I am not concerned about giving anything away. I will answer questions on here as honestly as I can...and I will not hold anything back.

[gazgolf1]

Martin I know your back in Oz but how is Elk going and when is his next start?

[martinez]

Elk is going well...he had some back trouble on the west coast swing (jagged it in the cold weather in Phoenix) and has had bronchitis and allergy issues since....his next start will be the Houston open, then after he wins that , The Masters...should he not win in Houston he will play the next three after the Masters then maybe have a week off before the Players Championship.

[gazgolf1]

Good stuff I want to have a couple of wagers on him.

[markTHEblake]

Everyone - if you dont get 'it' yet, watch these three videos, in that order. It's only about 6 mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrRg0-Zbi-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRCcA6BTMtQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmXa7jgZHdU

Marty, I have had a bit of a deja vu moment today, I think I have tried some of this before. But first I want to check something, see this edited picture of Moe, at that point the back of his left hand is pointing at the sky, lets call that 180 degs from the ball. This is something you are advocating, right?, and not like Tiger at 90 Degrees in the 2nd picture.

moe.jpg2011-03-20 21.46.16.jpg

[martinez]

The picture of Moe in feel...will likely result in very similar to the Tiger picture.
My whole method is based on things like that picture of Moe...you cant have the back of the left hand facing the sky and hit the ball...but by endeavoring to do it you delay the hit and contain the mass of the club longer. What that really does for you is be able to 'aim' for a good swing rather than fight the physical battle of creating one. If you had in mind to be in the position Tiger was in and held angles etc to do so...you simply would not be in that position which he arrived at dynamically.

[martinez]

The picture of Moe in feel...will likely result in very similar to the Tiger picture.
My whole method is based on things like that picture of Moe...you cant have the back of the left hand facing the sky and hit the ball...but by endeavoring to do it you delay the hit and contain the mass of the club longer. What that really does for you is be able to 'aim' for a good swing rather than fight the physical battle of creating one. If you had in mind to be in the position Tiger was in and held angles etc to do so...you simply would not be in that position which he arrived at dynamically.

[markTHEblake]

Ok, I get that. The reason I asked, and it twigged in the first few seconds of this video taken at the House of Tozer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmXa7jgZHdU

Someone, possibly here on Ozgolf ( I think they were a crank that is no longer around) suggested a quaint method that went something like this,
- a very open stance
- swing back inside
- and replicate the feel that you are swinging an axe to chop down a tree, which you would do with horizontal cuts not diagonal or vertical,
or it was like doing a karate chop with the right palm facing up.

It seemed so stupid and i thought he was on drugs, so I tried it when nobody was looking - The result was a very short restrcitive swing, but hit every shot so solid, just low and not as far, and seems to replicate the feel that is seen in Moes picture with his hands. This was some time ago, but now that I remember it, seems to be some common ground with your method particularly the feet facing forward drill.

[LarryLong]

I'm finding this all a bit hard to follow, but that first video Blakey posted struck a chord for what I'd like my backswing (which is currently terrible) to look, and feel like. Seems quite natural in theory - I just wonder if it could lead to things getting a little bit loose and floppy at the top and a loss of control? My hope is that if you get it started in the right direction and do it right, the club won't go anywhere else once you get it moving - does that make sense?

The mic stand that you were hitting with the back of the club in that wall video - is that on the ball to target line?

[martinez]

I'm finding this all a bit hard to follow, but that first video Blakey posted struck a chord for what I'd like my backswing (which is currently terrible) to look, and feel like. Seems quite natural in theory - I just wonder if it could lead to things getting a little bit loose and floppy at the top and a loss of control? My hope is that if you get it started in the right direction and do it right, the club won't go anywhere else once you get it moving - does that make sense?

The mic stand that you were hitting with the back of the club in that wall video - is that on the ball to target line?

Larry, I understand that this stuff is hard to follow and my answer to your questions should also make sense of Mark's feel that he's returning to...

You asked a couple of perfect questions to get to the meat of those two videos very quickly..If you follow the clinic video swing, the lead lag motion, the club will be swinging very freely but it will not be loose unless you try to swing it around you back to the ball. If you continue to let it swing freely and turn your whole body so that your hips and sternum are aimed in front of the ball on the swing arc it will be contained and not fly around everywhere. If you try to position it around the arc of the swing with the hands at the top, just before or just after, it will 'wobble' around.

The wall video with the mic stand, the stand is set up on the hands line parallel to the target line. the idea is to make the hand path as directly inside as you can to hit that wall....then you can let the club swing freely in the manner I said above. If you take the club away by turning the arms, or swinging the head of the club around you in a circular feeling, you will actually go inside the wall. If you manage that first part of the swing correctly then it becomes possible to let the mass of the club just swing around you the way it should and you just have to know where it is and keep leading it into the ball.

Mark, I started with a concept that wasn't so different to what that 'crank' did, but I was able to go back the next day and the next and so on and not only reproduce the feel but expand on it.....and understand it.

[gazgolf1]

The picture of Moe in feel...will likely result in very similar to the Tiger picture.
My whole method is based on things like that picture of Moe...you cant have the back of the left hand facing the sky and hit the ball...but by endeavoring to do it you delay the hit and contain the mass of the club longer. What that really does for you is be able to 'aim' for a good swing rather than fight the physical battle of creating one. If you had in mind to be in the position Tiger was in and held angles etc to do so...you simply would not be in that position which he arrived at dynamically.

Martin the pic of Moe reminds me of your early "Aiming the blade" video, bad audio and all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrHUHJjSWaI

[martinez]

Yeah that audio was shocking LOL...but yes, when I later saw Moe's crazy move, I doubled up the aiming of the blade high.

[virge666]

Ah look, I'm intrigued by your approach, and it's good to see someone has made it work putting it into practice. The only thing I'm having second thoughts on, is that in all the vids of yours I have seen, and the elk clinic, and the info you've given on here - I have no idea what you are talking about.

Umm... Yes - it is.

With a cool diagram drawn in a bunker and each part of the swing broken down into 15 minute pieces.

Then there is a summary, a quick start guide and an extra video bit with some more info.

$35 . . . But if your time isn't valuable - phaff around for a few more hours and try to piece it together with snippits of YouTube video - you should get it by about Christmas.

[virge666]

Martin,

Kudo's on the balance ideas in the bonus tape and material... I never thought to apply Magnum's theory to the full swing.

Makes a lot of sense.

[martinez]

Martin,

Kudo's on the balance ideas in the bonus tape and material... I never thought to apply Magnum's theory to the full swing.

Makes a lot of sense.

I already had a bunch of drills and things that were trying to achieve the same thing....but he made the 'why' they worked so simple....I love it. I got a lot out of the three days I spent watching him work with Elk on putting....he's one of the smartest people I have ever come across. Most of his stuff is so simple it makes you think...why didn't I look at it that way?

[markTHEblake]

I have spent the last two weeks swinging in front of telly watching Marty's videos, particularily the ones i recently linked too, and looking at myself in the sliding glass doors. I have figured out so much in that time, as well as ripping the carpet once and two more divots in the ceiling. But she is short and short sighted, so I'll get away with those, but I am dead when she sees the carpet one.

Today I hit the practice fairway, and for the first time since I *think* I understand it, to hit some real balls. Started with some pitch shots like Marty showed us in the clinic, and basically it was shank, skull or a glancing slice for 5 mins, that made it really hard to convince myself attacking the ball with the open clubface (if that the right terminology)! but It was good to get that out of my system. So next step was to concentrate on firming up the body core, and making sure that the first part of the down swing the only thing that moved was a rotation of the upper body and that licked it. From then on hit very nice pitches and lobs with heaps of spin. Who needs a 60deg, not me. Actually this action is not so far removed from a shot I developed combined with a hot tip from Rabbs, except your way i get much more distance control.

Then to the practice fairway. Started out with 8 irons, and again, shank, skull, and glancing slices, but unlike Virge I figured it out in 5 mins not 5 hours! Again did the same as with the pitch shots, plus, tried to keep the left arm abit straighter and turn the shoulders a fraction more, faster tempo to give that bit of a spring effect in the load, and that got a bit better.

Then I thought about the drill where you had the cricket ball on the end of the stick, and you put it behind the right shoulder to start down, so applying that visual, and like Moe Norman with the back of the left hand facing to the sky and a bit of my axe analogy and Whack!

Seemed to work pretty good. Gouged out some pretty deep and wide divots which is a big thing for me as you might recall (though the ground was wet and the grass was lush) and was only using BirdieBalls, and it was dark, but I know what is working. Hit a handful of real balls and that was pretty good too.

I have a lot more to do, but I can see a light at the end of the tunnel shining very brightly.

[martinez]

Good stuff mate, that all sounds promising...flipped Rabs over to the twirly side yesterday. He took to it well.