Martinez19696

[razaar]

I should add that the Barber swing is not in plane past the midway point because he has not rotated his left arm to keep the clubhead and shaft on the plane set up at address. He gets it back on plane at the top by rotating the forearm and looping the clubhead at a time when the clubhead is moving slowly because his arms have almost stopped. It is really neat the way he does it and is unique to him and the way he learnt to play. However in the context of simple, uncomplicated swings it is at the other end of the scale.

[virge666]

The art of golf is to return the clubhead on the correct plane.

For you maybe - but for me the art of golf is to hit the ball the way I wish to execute.

Martin has a nice way that works for him and a few others by the look of it. What you need to get through your brain is that he is NOT advocating Barbers swing of wildly steep and outside. He is advocating a feel for getting the golf club into a powerful and stable osition at the top. Until you can get past this and read further into the method - then all you are doing is sprouting "plane" this and "muscle" that. There is more than that to his swing pattern. Fowler was your best comment and it looks pretty similar to me.

Being unable to get past this will leave arguing the same minute point without looking at the full picture. Grab a video of his swing and draw some plane lines, work out what his moves look like in real time before you go off half cocked. Check out the hands inside and clubhead outside takeaway !!

And for the record - I am not a student of Martin's, I have all three of his videos and I think I understand what he is doing though I am a bit lost on the body rotation on the downswing.

My 2 cents

[markTHEblake]

Ray, you might be interested in this thread and the article written by Dave Tutelman that it references too
http://www.secretinthedirt.com/index...mum-golf-swing

[Hogan's Bogan]

Iain
The art of golf is to return the clubhead on the correct plane.

For you maybe - but for me the art of golf is to hit the ball the way I wish to execute.

Fellas, I think you might be arguing over the same split hair. Return the swing on plane consistently, and you execute good shots consistently...

[razaar]

For you maybe - but for me the art of golf is to hit the ball the way I wish to execute.

Martin has a nice way that works for him and a few others by the look of it. What you need to get through your brain is that he is NOT advocating Barbers swing of wildly steep and outside. He is advocating a feel for getting the golf club into a powerful and stable osition at the top. Until you can get past this and read further into the method - then all you are doing is sprouting "plane" this and "muscle" that. There is more than that to his swing pattern. Fowler was your best comment and it looks pretty similar to me.

Being unable to get past this will leave arguing the same minute point without looking at the full picture. Grab a video of his swing and draw some plane lines, work out what his moves look like in real time before you go off half cocked. Check out the hands inside and clubhead outside takeaway !!

And for the record - I am not a student of Martin's, I have all three of his videos and I think I understand what he is doing though I am a bit lost on the body rotation on the downswing.

My 2 cents

I don't have an issue with the takeaway, it is similar to my own. It was when I posted Barber's swing and Martin's admission that he used this swing as an example at a PGA presentation that things got interesting. I am still waiting for his reply why he teaches reverse rotation to the top. Because it feels right for him or Elkinton or anybody else does not explain it good enough for me. I want the science behind it, if there is any. Come on Martin...you can do it. And Martin I wasn't being condescending earlier, my grandson does know about such things, he is learning to play the piano and has just turned 2.

[martinez]

Razaar
Things may have gotten interesting to you in this discussion, but I am getting somewhat bored of it. You are seeing the effects (easily observable) and ascribing all the motion you see as being the result of a motion or force directed in the direction you see. Where's the science in that? Most of the time that people bring science in to the discussion they leave out the prefix junk- .

I teach reverse rotation to the top....and then to continue to move in that same direction.....because it is the least wasteful bio-mechanically.

You say " Come on Martin...you can do it."
You're right, I can, and I can teach it....it's not hard, you just have to understand that an object in motion (club) is going to have an effect on the body. My method is an efficient way of both balancing a free swinging club as well as directing the energy and force of the club into a specific point (the ball) time and time again.

You were being condescending earlier, you can try to cover that up however you like, but it's you sir that has wool over your eyes.

[razaar]

Well good luck Martin....I hope my words have given you something to think about.

[markTHEblake]

This photo impresses me, look at where the clubface is pointing.

[razaar]

Good isn't it, perfectly on plane with the hands returning through their address position.

[martinez]

Well good luck Martin....I hope my words have given you something to think about.

tbh with you...they haven't really. I am however keen to discuss this further with anyone who is willing...Hogan's Bogan has given me a great deal to think about. I believe he has become just as fed up as I was with the current spate of glossy tips and neutral plane garbage that is prevalent in the modern Golf instruction paradigm. Science, or what is incorrectly labeled as science...all the 3d whizbang gear and high speed photograpy is useless if you can't apply it to yourself or others from the players perspective over the Golf ball.

Interesting photo of Moe...look at the shadow on the ground and note that his eyes would be looking at the ball between his arms....fantastic.

[martinez]

Awesome...so ready to deliver all the stored energy....there's a reason this guy was so good and we can all tap into the same thing without looking like him in the swing...it should look how it should look for you.

[markTHEblake]

Interesting photo of Moe.

Yes, I would have never expected to see Moe get into a position like that
Lots more here: http://moenorman.org/moenormanscrapbook

especially this one
http://moenorman.org/uploaded/scrapb...tical_Drop.gif

The first thing I thought of in that photo is when you were showing us in the short game lesson to have the face open like that.

[virge666]

The first thing I thought of in that photo is when you were showing us in the short game lesson to have the face open like that.

Blakey.

This to me is one of those things that a lot of good teachers teach, but it is one of the hardest things for people understand / feel.

Ernie Els said it was like holding a waiter's tray
AJ Bonar said it was like holding a TV remote
Edwin uses teh down and around terminology.
Baan uses his 9 nine shot drill to get you to control the face. He also likes to you open it up on the backswing.

My comment has always been - don't use you hands.... close the clubface with the body. The more open it is on the way down - the more aggressive you can be with your body on the down swing.

Personally - i dont give a shit about plane. never have. Plane to me is a way of explaining the golf swing - not a way of teaching it.

Enjoy

[razaar]

tbh with you...they haven't really. I am however keen to discuss this further with anyone who is willing...Hogan's Bogan has given me a great deal to think about. I believe he has become just as fed up as I was with the current spate of glossy tips and neutral plane garbage that is prevalent in the modern Golf instruction paradigm. Science, or what is incorrectly labeled as science...all the 3d whizbang gear and high speed photograpy is useless if you can't apply it to yourself or others from the players perspective over the Golf ball.

Interesting photo of Moe...look at the shadow on the ground and note that his eyes would be looking at the ball between his arms....fantastic.

Martin I can't let you get away with that statement. All of my words are what was written about the golf swing in 1968. You will find it all in "Search for the Perfect Swing" by Alastair Cochran & John Stubbs. This scientific study into the golf swing was commissioned by the Golf Society of Great Britain. It was written by scientists to further the interests of the game in all its aspects. An updated version was released in 2005. The update confirms that nothing in the original publication was incorrect as it relates to the golf swing and did contribute greatly to the advances in ball and club design.

[Hogan's Bogan]

Martin I can't let you get away with that statement. All of my words are what was written about the golf swing in 1968. You will find it all in "Search for the Perfect Swing" by Alastair Cochran & John Stubbs. This scientific study into the golf swing was commissioned by the Golf Society of Great Britain. It was written by scientists to further the interests of the game in all its aspects. An updated version was released in 2005. The update confirms that nothing in the original publication was incorrect as it relates to the golf swing and did contribute greatly to the advances in ball and club design.

For as long as the mechanics of a golf swing have been talked and written about, the arguments over the best way to explain it - scientifically, visually, metaphors, and the way to transfer it to feel and action, have been argued about to. Often people are arguing about the same thing without realising it, just opposed to the method use to do it.

I can see how some people will understand something by reading it from a scientific and biomechanical perspective, but for me, that's an in vitro explanation that doesn't communicate anything in a way I can relate to, and apply.

I'm reading what Hogan had to say, because given so many today still hold his writing and game in high regard, that there really isn't anything new in golf - just variations on the way to say it. That's what's become confusing for me.

[razaar]

For as long as the mechanics of a golf swing have been talked and written about, the arguments over the best way to explain it - scientifically, visually, metaphors, and the way to transfer it to feel and action, have been argued about to. Often people are arguing about the same thing without realising it, just opposed to the method use to do it.

I can see how some people will understand something by reading it from a scientific and biomechanical perspective, but for me, that's an in vitro explanation that doesn't communicate anything in a way I can relate to, and apply.

I'm reading what Hogan had to say, because given so many today still hold his writing and game in high regard, that there really isn't anything new in golf - just variations on the way to say it. That's what's become confusing for me.

You will gets lots out of this publication, because Hogan's swing is one of the swings the study covers. If I was to have one golf book in my library, it would be this one. It doesn't read as one would expect a scientific study to read, nor is it an instruction book. It is a book that every teacher of the golf swing should have in his or her library IMO. Actually Elkington would have been a likely candidate for a swing model if he had been playing at the time the book was written.

Martin, next time you speak with Elk ask him about Stephen Taylor (who was also at Houston Uni).

[martinez]

I have the book....it's a great book. Doesn't change anything I have said in this thread. Please for those that have read the book and for those that haven't...what scientific principles have I butchered in your view....you asked for the debate and want to carry it on. I'll oblige you, but you better come at me with more substantial arguments than just citing an author or book name....you will need to validate what you have said with regard to the importance of plane. As the invoker a science based argument.

If you would like to ask Elkington whether his picture perfect swing he has had...on plane one at that, has been improved by employing the principles I am talking about...feel free. I know what his answer will be.

@Hogan's Bogan
Yes nothing new under the sun...all that is known was known in the first 15 minutes etc....I agree.

[razaar]

Not having seen your videos I have no knowledge of what you teach. My comments were directed at Miller Barber's swing as a model for teaching the golf swing. See post #306 for starters.
Page 65 fig. 9.3 how the right arm braces the framework at the top of the backswing. To get to this position to start the downswing there has to be some complicated movements as I stated in my later post.

[Hogan's Bogan]

If you would like to ask Elkington whether his picture perfect swing he has had...on plane one at that, has been improved by employing the principles I am talking about...feel free. I know what his answer will be.

@Hogan's Bogan
Yes nothing new under the sun...all that is known was known in the first 15 minutes etc....I agree.

I think it's pretty clear what he thinks, given he's running clinics with you.

And looking at the vids, 'with' seems the operative word. It's just I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, and that reverse rotation - the cliff and the ribbon thing. I watch him swing and I can't see any of what he's talking about in action.

Besides, a pro like Elkington has different needs. He felt he lacked power, and on today's ever longer tournament courses that's a disadvantage. The average golfer probably doesn't need extra power, but more control and consistency. What I don't get is how your teaching on the power move helps with consistency.

I'm not even sure what the debate/issues over what you're teaching is in this thread - that's the way these analytical golf discussions go. That's why I think you and Raz have opposing ideologies that probably amount to the same thing, it's just getting lost in the textual confusion of writing about it. That's what I was getting at in my previous post.

As for nothing new...I don't think people believe there's anything new to learn about the golf swing. I think, like me, often people are just trying to get it explained in a way they can make work. While there's something to be said for working it out for yourself, often what you think you're doing right is wrong, based on either a misinterpretation, misapplication or allowing bad habits to creep in while you were working on some other aspect.

[virge666]

Not having seen your videos I have no knowledge of what you teach. My comments were directed at Miller Barber's swing as a model for teaching the golf swing. See post #306 for starters.
Page 65 fig. 9.3 how the right arm braces the framework at the top of the backswing. To get to this position to start the downswing there has to be some complicated movements as I stated in my later post.

Geez mate - when you get a bone, you wont let go.

I used him as an example in my recent seminar talk in Canada for the PGA. He basically rotated both arms towards and the club toward the ball the whole way until the change of direction. My method is basically that with a different aiming point....

This is what all started it... please note DIFFERENT AIMING POINT

Now can we please get back to normal and something a little more informative.

[razaar]

I was talking to the boss about this thread and she said exactly the same thing and gave me a real serve about my behaviour. But you are right Anthony, I do need to pull my head in on occasions and this is one of them. My apologies to anybody I have offended.

[virge666]

I was talking to the boss about this thread and she said exactly the same thing and gave me a real serve about my behaviour. But you are right Anthony, I do need to pull my head in on occasions and this is one of them. My apologies to anybody I have offended.

Rookie error - never apologise on a forum. You need to use mis-direction and blame a 3rd party.

Back on thread.

Martin,

How do you keep your hips level and stop the low right arse through impact. Struggling with weight going back and out towards the ball with fat shots. As you unwind my right arm towards impact.

Not enough turn ?

[markTHEblake]

Martin, next time you speak with Elk ask him about Stephen Taylor (who was also at Houston Uni).

Stephen Taylor was swinging like Jim Furyk before Jim Furyk did.

[Hogan's Bogan]

How do you keep your hips level and stop the low right arse through impact. Struggling with weight going back and out towards the ball with fat shots. As you unwind my right arm towards impact.

Not enough turn ?

I'd find it hard to drop my right arse, or even tilt my hips, which is the only way half an arse can drop. Have you seen a rectal specialist? The choppa in me suggest you might be swaying instead of turning, and that means you might be swaying back and chopping low into the ball. But I'll defer to anyone whose paid to talk golf for a living. But they might be hard pushed to say for sure unless they see a vid of you doing it.

[ddasey]

Very Interesting

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13330953