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View Full Version : Greens with Tiers!!!



petethepilot
8th June 2008, 09:50 PM
What is it with Committees/Course Architects that virtually every new green has to be enormous and have 2 or more steps/tiers in them!!!? I've played pretty much every great course (and been a member of a few) in Australia and all bar 2 of the British Open courses. My overall impression is that most of the greens on the great courses are smaller than average (St Andrews aside!) and use subtle contours. They might be protected occassionaly by fearsome hazards or clever mounding but they virtually never have the putt putt style hills/steps/tiers that we see so regularly today! I played indooroopilly's new holes (well most of them) today and although some of the new holes are pretty good, some of the greens are silly. One of my favourite holes (used to be 7 on the red nine) along the road has had a small challenging green replaced with something NOT!!! Why? It can't be cheaper to maintain and it makes it a putting contest instead of a ball striking contest. It's not even a Queensland thing as great courses like Newcastle have done it! Silly:smt013

AndyP
9th June 2008, 06:57 AM
it makes it a putting contest instead of a ball striking contest.
Since when has golf been a ball striking contest? Learn to putt better or use the great ball striking to get it on the right tier.

Perhaps our resident architect can answer your questions as to why they designed the greens the way they are at Indro.

goughy
9th June 2008, 06:59 AM
Maybe with the higher traffic levels on some of our courses they get more places to move the holes too hence allowing some portions of the greens to recover?

Heck, when I get to the green I start fixing other pitch marks to keep my mind from hyperfocusing on the task at hand. I shouldn't need to do that as at most the only damage on the green should be from my group. Sadly that's not the case.

Andrew
9th June 2008, 09:35 AM
It's not even a Queensland thing as great courses like Newcastle have done it!
I'm a member at Newcastle & I'm interested to hear which greens have large tiers. I'm also interested to know which greens you think are 'new'.


You are correct about many of the British courses. I have probably played most of the same courses you have played in the U.K. & most of the greens are far more subtle than what is being designed by the average architect these days. There are exceptions like the 16th at North Berwick (West), but as a rule subtlety is the key.

Many of the great American courses I have played are different though. This seems to come from the influence of guys who where heavily into the engineered look, like Seth Raynor & because much of the land was not as natural for golf as most of the Scottish links are. Many of the greens at courses like Yale, NGLA, Bethpage (Black) could make you re-think your views slightly. Although, only slightly.

One thing we don't see much in modern design is the small, single sloping green. Garden City is a perfect example of that. I assume this has gone out of fashion due to the perceived need of multiple pin positions, but on a low traffic private course it should be still relevant today. St Andrew's Beach had some greens like this & architects like Doak, C&C & Clayton don't seem to be afraid of such a green, but most other architects are.

Have you played the Craighead course at Crail in Scotland, just south of St Andrew’s. It was designed by Gil Hanse only about 10 years ago, yet fits in perfectly with the Balcomie course at Crail, which is about 120 years old. It’s a perfect example of what can be done by a designer if he bothers to try.

Moe Norman
9th June 2008, 10:34 AM
7 on the red 9 has always been a large 3 tiered green at Indooroopilly, ad despite my dislike of this overused feature, it worked very well on that hole. i hope they didn't change it.

Now because you said 'along the road' I can only assume you are talking about the 6th, which was never a small green, but it also previously didn't have any tiers either.

i'll probably get out and have a look at what they did to the place in the coming months, but you sound a bit confused....

petethepilot
9th June 2008, 10:43 PM
It was late when I posted it!
Moe, you are right. It is 6 red on the road. It also used to have a green that would have been 2/3 the size of the present 3 tiered one. I also hate to tell you that 7 red is now totally different. Still a strong hole but full of lumps and tiers. That feature might be fine on tumbling, rolling, heaving terrain but open your eyes at Indro West and thats not what you see!! The course is flat and the few elevation changes that existed on the West (Tee shot on 3 & 7 and the second on 18 have been removed. 6 Red drops in front of the tee but is still basically level.
The East has better terrain and uses it well with smaller greens protected with subtle slopes and mounding. An altogether more interesting target in my honest opinion.
Andrew,
Newcastle
1st (2003/4 approx) you surely don't like a step in a green there that can't be properly mowed.
2nd (same time roughly just done a bit better with the step. certainly larger)
3rd (2003/4 three times the size although old green was designed as a par 4)
10th (2004/5 twice the size but I can't remember if it is stepped?)
13th (2005 1/3 larger and a large step!)
15th (2004 I think.Big lump in middle although old green was difficult as well)
18th (pre 1997 but not by much! Old hole was a beauty. New one not! The New green required a new tee (due to is size, twice as big!) so now the average member can't reach the last 5 greens in regulation)

Best greens at Newcastle; 11 and 17. Still the old greens and neither is very large.

Goughy,
Pitch marks are always a problem. More so when the green is soft. Smaller targets must, must get less pitch marks as more greens get missed, more short game shots get hit (wow they must be much more boring than your third 50 foot putt of the round!). There are also more good people (like yourself) walking near them to fix them.

You don't have to agree. It's just my musings. I'm still a member at Indro.

Happy Golfing 8-)

Andrew
10th June 2008, 11:13 AM
1st green – I don’t call that a tier. I just call it bad construction. It could be easily fixed.
2nd green – It’s the only tier that is on any green at Newcastle. It has always amazed me how that happened. No understanding of style & original intention.

Your mention of the 3rd has puzzled me a bit, but there are no more steps in any of the other greens.

The 10th is quite average. The original Apperly masterplan shows the 10th as a bunkerless ‘punchbowl’, which is ideal for a hole that is double blind to most golfers.

If you want to see what a real tier looks like, have a putt on the 8th or 17th at Peninsula South. We are talking 3 foot change in levels.

Moe Norman
10th June 2008, 05:18 PM
Pete,

The East has always been the dtronger course of the 2 in my opinion. West has too many silly features and is poorly bunkered

petethepilot
10th June 2008, 08:27 PM
Andrew,
I agree the tiers are nothing like the holes you mentioned but surely back left on 13 would be a tier? I guess my main issue was the introduction of them. 1, 2, 3, 10, 12, 13 and 18 are new designs (as against replacing/returfing) from the recent years and 3 of those 6 have some step in them. All bar the first is larger, most of them significantly. None of the older greens was large except 15 and it is long and narrow. I guess when push comes to shove, I hate the move away from small size and subtlety to big and overt. It works at the Old course (National) because of the setting and because a lot of the shots you are looking down at the target.

Can anybody name me a redevelopment where the greens have got smaller than the originals?

Regards,
Pete :)

Moe Norman
10th June 2008, 09:05 PM
I wouldn't say they got any bigger at Royal Sydney.

They needed to be bigger at Indro, to deal with the increased traffic. Small greens can't survive alot of play

markTHEblake
10th June 2008, 09:43 PM
That explains Emerald Lakes greens then. 2 and 3 tiered monsters most of em.

kpac
11th June 2008, 06:27 AM
That explains Emerald Lakes greens then. 2 and 3 tiered monsters most of em.

not exactly monsters....

kpac
11th June 2008, 06:58 AM
surely tiers are not the only method to gain multiple pin locations. But depends on the theme of the course, i agree that tier greens are becoming more common, and often look out of place on renovated courses. I'd have thought shape could provided just as many options...

sms316
11th June 2008, 07:24 AM
it makes it a putting contest instead of a ball striking contest.
Surely not - I would have thought that it would place an ever higher premium on ball striking so the ball ends up on the right tier. Just because you hit a green, doesn't mean that you have hit a good shot.

Leaving yourself with an ugly putt is no different than missing a green and leaving a difficult chip.

Grunt
11th June 2008, 06:24 PM
Sometimes the safe play option from us hackers is not to hit the green but be in a spot where you can chip it close and then 2 putt for bogie/2 points. Have had some shockers where on the green is death.

Moe Norman
11th June 2008, 07:59 PM
thats the case for any level of golfer.

markTHEblake
11th June 2008, 10:19 PM
not exactly monsters....

Obviously you didnt grow up during the pre-resort era :lol: