Question for Tezza and other builders.

[Jono]

Question for those who are good at building/renovating houses. Yes, that's you Tezza. 8-)

There's this nice house that I'm looking at. I like everything about it except one thing. The bottom level has brick walls. there are 2 bedrooms, laundry, and a large living room and the walls are left in brick finish. Very 70's style. :roll:

What's the best/cheapest way to smooth this out and make it look more like indoors rather than outdoors? Cement rendering? would this do the trick? How much would this cost?

[markTHEblake]

I know I aint a Builder so am not qualifed to answer, but my wife rendered our old house - by herself.
Cost buggar all.

[Jono]

I know I aint a Builder so am not qualifed to answer, but my wife rendered our old house - by herself.
Cost buggar all.

Was that just the outside? Would cement rendering work for indoors? Suppose it would be better than the raw brick finish.

[Courty]

Jono, check out these links:

http://ourhouse.ninemsn.com.au/ourhouse/factsheets/db/makeovers/04/430.asp

http://www.coateshomecentre.com.au/tips_tricks/tip_cement_render.htm

[Jono]

Thanks Courty. :smt023

[markTHEblake]

Was that just the outside?

Yeah, our inside was just normal gyprock. from memory she used the technique called bagging. I think that means you slop a bit of render on the wall, and than dab it with a cloth bag.

Didnt seem that complicated, and no i didnt sit in a banana lounge and watch her do it, i was off workin' :-)

[PeteyD]

Brick will come back into fashion. Hang pictures on it.

[Jono]

You mean people actually like this look?

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/5499/20070037884fseu9.jpg

I don't mind brick finish outside, the I like a more cosy homely look inside with smooth walls.

[markTHEblake]

I dont mind it, but gee its a nice looking joint regardless, and I see an internal driving bay in there on the right.

Though i would be inclined to paint it rather than render though.

[3oneday]

Render it, plaster it, gyprock it. Depends on what you want to spend but I think rendering would look to outdoorsy.

You could take all the cornice, door frames etc off and gyprock it, that would look the best.

[Courty]

I think there is some sort of plaster product that can be applied directly to the brickwork. You'd need to talk to a plasterer to get the info though. It might be less messy than concrete render, but probably dearer.

[Jono]

I do believe that is the first useful post by 3oneday in my threads. Well done. 8)

[PeteyD]

Put some furniture and pictures in there and it would appear nicer. Picture it all the same colour (probably an off white) and smooth, which is what Gyprocking would do. Mind you you would need to employ a dry wall guy, and a sparky, and painters.

[BrisVegas]

those brick walls look fine to me. save your $$ and spend it on a golf simulator.

[Jono]

those brick walls look fine to me. save your $$ and spend it on a golf simulator.

Don't worry, Dion. I've got the simulator thing all worked out. ;)

[goughy]

They're too dark. I'm with 31d on this one. Robyn would hate those walls!

Would look good on the outside though.

[markTHEblake]

I think there is some sort of plaster product that can be applied directly to the brickwork..

I did an extension and needed to plaster the old external veneer brick wall. No brainer for the plasterer, when i asked him how he put it on, he said ´glue´ as if it was a dopey question. :-)

its not even worth wondering about - it works

[3oneday]

I do believe that is the first useful post by 3oneday in my threads. Well done. 8)sorry :oops:

This plastered yet ?


;)

[Jono]

If I buy this property, I think I will get a plasterer ... at least for the bedrooms anyway.

One quick question. This property is at the back of a battleaxe block. I've heard that this decreases the value of the property somewhat. I quite like the privacy and of course the view from the back. The front block would not have this kind of a view.

In this case, do you think the fact that this is on the back of a battleaxe block would decrease the resale value?

[markTHEblake]

I love battleaxe blocks, have lived on 2 or 3.
without the street frontage its much more quiet, dont have so many nosey people looking in your windows, they tend to keep the mormans away, and and you can have kids running around in the yards without the worry of em being anywhere near a road.

[Jarro]

Leave the walls as they are Jono ...

.. little kids can't damage a brick wall, but they can destroy gyprock :shock:


;)

[terryand]

Sorry I,m a bit late in here Jono. If it was my house I would fix gyprock over it for these reasons.

Pretty sure it would be a lot cheaper than solid plastering it.
The finish will be a lot smoother with cleaner lines.
And the clincher for me is the fact that if there is even a slight amount of movement the solid plaster will crack and then when you patch it it looks patched, if there does happen to move the gyprock there is usually only one crack through the middle where the sheets are joined, which is very easy to fix and doesn't' look fixed, if you know what I mean.

Terry.

[amanda]

I'm with terry on this one.

Gyprock is much easier - you won't have the cracking issue. I grew up in a house like the one in the picture - they plastered the walls - but every 5-7 yrs it needed re-doing because of cracking & repainting. Pain in the butt!

On the outside - consider the Moroka product - it can come in 2 finishes - either a smooth or rough product - and it virtually doesn't crack. Mainly because of the ingredients.

http://www.kellymoroka.com.au/

If you are after some honest building advice from lots of people who are currently building, renovating or work in the industry - try http://forum.homeone.com.au/
This forum has been invaluable to us in preparing to build our place.

[3oneday]

In this case, do you think the fact that this is on the back of a battleaxe block would decrease the resale value?
so, is the question then that you are paying too much because it is a battleaxe ? ;)

If it is worth this much now, why would it be less later ? damned ho's, only ever think of resale :lol:

Is it likely in the future that your view will be diminished ? that the property is at risk of slipping down the hill or being swallowed by the ocean with the current global warming threat ?

If you can predict future house values you probably shouldn't be a doctor ;)

[goughy]

I would think that the issue of value would be more relevant if you see yourself moving on again in the short term, like 5 years or so. If you're looking at the long term, then maybe it doesn't matter as much.

[Jono]

I read from one of those building forums that a property on a battleaxe block would have less value than a similar block with street frontage. The reasoning was something like:

1) you are surrounded by 4 houses instead of three. ie. less privacy
2) drainage problems?
3) loss of prestige not having a street frontage

Then someone jumped in and said that battleaxe block with a rear view would be worth more than the front block.

But that doesn't address the issue of the property having greater value if it had street frontage AND a view.

Or am I thinking too much? :roll:

[Jono]

Sorry I,m a bit late in here Jono. If it was my house I would fix gyprock over it for these reasons.

Pretty sure it would be a lot cheaper than solid plastering it.
The finish will be a lot smoother with cleaner lines.
And the clincher for me is the fact that if there is even a slight amount of movement the solid plaster will crack and then when you patch it it looks patched, if there does happen to move the gyprock there is usually only one crack through the middle where the sheets are joined, which is very easy to fix and doesn't' look fixed, if you know what I mean.

Terry.

Thanks Tezza. I saw a video of gyprock being installed and it looked quite simple. However, it was being installed on timber frames. Is it just as simple to install over brick surface?

[goughy]

Maybe more blue glue and less gyprock screws?

[3oneday]

I read from one of those building forumsmy argument is that it is worth (?) $600K now, are there houses nearby for sale, what are they worth and what are they like ? It looked to me that the view is part of the cost, but also this property looks higher than the one around it ?

Gee, a difference of opinion on a forum ? that's just not normal is it ?

[kpac]

Thanks Tezza. I saw a video of gyprock being installed and it looked quite simple. However, it was being installed on timber frames. Is it just as simple to install over brick surface?

mat get some furring channels and pack the walls square first IF you are going to plaster it. You can get nice fine channels (around 25mm) that will improve your plastering and you can run conduit in the walls.

Personally i like the brick finish, it can be finished nicely (gloss or sheen over the top, adds a nice dimension to it. Anyway if you're against the brick look this doesn't help.

Go furring channels and get a plasterer in. :smt023. And get a sparky to get the light switches off the door reveals ;);)

[AndyP]

Gee, a difference of opinion on a forum ? that's just not normal is it ?It happens all the time.

[kpac]

Maybe more blue glue and less gyprock screws?

lights will show up even the tiniest imperfections

[AndyP]

It happens all the time.No, it doesn't you ****ing wanker.

-------

I think the brick looks fine, Jono, but at least you know it's not a roadblock to buying it now.

[miro]

Thanks Tezza. I saw a video of gyprock being installed and it looked quite simple. However, it was being installed on timber frames. Is it just as simple to install over brick surface?

Jono

Virtually every quality house in Australia is built this way -internal brick walls with gyprock finish or internal render. Not a huge amount of difference to the final finish or the durability of either product. From the picture it appears Gyprock will require all the cornices,architraves etc to be replaced as well.

With regard to the battle axe block this will be very site dependant. You imply that you pick up outlook by being at the rear of this block. In this case I would say then its probably equivalent to maybe slightly below a similar house with street frontage. Without the outlook there is undoubtedly going to be a minor value impact (why? street frontage appeal, also the "stigma" of battleaxe simply slightly reduces the umber of people who will be interested in buying the property).

Any other questions. I might be able to dig up a rater per metre for the internal works so that you can estimate the cost but bank on no change from $10k - $15k.

Miro

[miro]

Jono,

On your question about value -did a bit of desk based research i.e. looked at what else is for sale and the house itself. My gut feel is that they are over market on the asking price. It appears quite cheaply built. You can buy other newly built properties of similar size but without the view for $650k -actually that is asking price and in that market I would guarantee $620 -5k would get them at most.

One other thought -markets like Helensburgh (i.e. very small, off pitch location) can be very difficult to move properties in and as a generalisation will not achieve material capital growth.

You have indicated that this is a 10 year purchase, I would happily bet the farm that you will not want to live in Helensburgh for a decade. And if I am correct you will be selling a 5 year old project home into a very thin market where I guarantee you brand new houses are still selling for $650k i.e. you will have some problems.

Think carefully about this sort of location and if you are committed to same try and buy second hand, but relatively new, stock.

[miro]

And finally. Might I say you can buy near new to new houses of similar size for $550k - $700k (that appear much higher quality) in Macquarie Links Estate which INCLUDE golf club membership. Macquarie Links is much more likely to keep you interested for 10 years than BFI Helensburgh.

[PeteyD]

But won't he end up fighting the club captain at Mac Links?

[3oneday]

No, that's Macarthur Grange.

[PeteyD]

Ah ok. Sydney courses all seem the same ;)

[3oneday]

pfft

[PeteyD]

Did they bulldoze Mac Fields to make Mac Links?

[3oneday]

Did they bulldoze Mac Fields to make Mac Links?Different part of Sydney I think, but a good idea all the same :lol:

[TS]

Jono. My mate Ivan and his brothers are all gyprock, give him a call and he be able to give you some answers.

[amanda]

Did they bulldoze Mac Fields to make Mac Links?
Suburbs are right next to each other:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/macquarie.gif

[3oneday]

He meant Mac Grange.

[Jono]

Miro, thanks for your words of wisdom. Much appreciated.

I'm wondering why you say the house is cheaply built. here are some pics.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7571/20070037881fsjv0.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/844/20070037882fswf9.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7223/20070037883fsyc7.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/482/20070037884fsac7.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5074/20070037885fsph0.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8065/20070037886fskm4.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/97/20070037887fssp2.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/959/20070037888fslp9.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/37/20070037889fsbn9.jpg


The timber floors upstairs look great and I stomped around. Even with my increased mass, it felt solid. The ceilings are high ... 9 foot downstairs and nearly 10 foot upstairs ... plenty of room to swing a golf club. ;)

The small backyard suits me and the real piece de resistence (sp?) for me is the separate garage/granny flat. This would be perfect area to set up my golf simulator/launch monitor.

What is it about the house that makes you think it's cheaply made?

[Grunt]

Looks very good Jono, I have a few mates who live in the 'burg. I would go there if I could afford it.

[Jono]

The realestate agent asked the builder who giprocked upstairs. He estimated around $5000 to do the whole lower level. Quite reasonable, I thought.

[Courty]

All of those outdoor pics look suspicious. Someone has tinkered with them (probably just replacing a cloudy sky with a blue one :roll:).

[Eag's]

Nice looking pad there Doc :smt023

[Grunt]

Mate lives in Gardiner st/ave. Is that near where you are looking?

[Jono]

All of those outdoor pics look suspicious. Someone has tinkered with them (probably just replacing a cloudy sky with a blue one :roll:).

Wow ... you're good, Courty. I've got large prints of these pictures and I think I can see what you mean. Are you talking about the tree/sky edges in picture two looking a bit "digital"?

I'll raise this with the realestate agent tomorrow. :?

[Grunt]

Also Jono, another thing you may want to look into before you buy down there is how prepared are you to deal with Bushfires. The big one on the National Park did some big damage down there a few years ago. Was pretty scary for those living there.

[Jono]

Mate lives in Gardiner st/ave. Is that near where you are looking?

Driver and 7 iron par 4, I reckon. :lol:

[Courty]

Wow ... you're good, Courty. I've got large prints of these pictures and I think I can see what you mean. Are you talking about the tree/sky edges in picture two looking a bit "digital"?

I'll raise this with the realestate agent tomorrow. :?

Yeah Doc, although the first thing I noticed was the lighting. The sky is super bright (near-midday sun) but the rest of the pic is a bit silvery (pics taken later in the day or in overcast conditions). If the sky was actually like that when the pics were taken, there would be better contrast and well-defined shadows. :?

[Jono]

Also Jono, another thing you may want to look into before you buy down there is how prepared are you to deal with Bushfires. The big one on the National Park did some big damage down there a few years ago. Was pretty scary for those living there.

Yep, I agree that is an issue. My parents bush facing house was in danger in the summer of 90/91 after they first moving in. We were ready to pump the water from the pool ... It got within few km before it turned around. Pretty scary stuff.

[Grunt]

He is at the end of the cul de sac. nice spot, he built it himself. He backs onto the Nasho, you will have to get onto the local terms too Jono. Is a nice little country like town but not far from the city.

[Courty]

I know that Real Estate agents doctor their house pics for "aesthetics", but this one was a pretty dodgy effort. Of course, none of this means that there's anything wrong with the house.

[Jono]

I know that Real Estate agents doctor their house pics for "aesthetics", but this one was a pretty dodgy effort. Of course, none of this means that there's anything wrong with the house.

Yeah, but if they are dodgy about one thing, they might be dodgy about another. What if they're hiding a big fault in the house? :?

[miro]

The realestate agent asked the builder who giprocked upstairs. He estimated around $5000 to do the whole lower level. Quite reasonable, I thought.

Jono,

Just make sure you are comparing apples. Does this includes stripping architraves and cornices? Does it include purchase and instal of new ones? Does it include painting? Does it include and electrician for moving the power points? I am sure there will be another trade or two on top of these.

[Jono]

Jono,

Just make sure you are comparing apples. Does this includes stripping architraves and cornices? Does it include purchase and instal of new ones? Does it include painting? Does it include and electrician for moving the power points? I am sure there will be another trade or two on top of these.

I didn't ask specifically, but the agent said this is including the extra cost of removing then replacing the cornices etc. Don't know about eletrical work. Probably not.

I'm interested in why you say this house looks cheap. I can't ask how much it cost them to build it but I can ask about the quality of construction if you can pin point something out.

[miro]

Cheap build comment based on the quality of windows, the bathroom fittings shown, steel not brick posts, visibly far to few power points, no window dressings, perhaps too few light fittings (and the cheapest ones you can buy).

I stand by my desk top opinion that this proeprty is somewhere around $75k overpriced.

Compare it to the visible look and feel of this property which has a much greater level of detail in its finishing -which is not disimilarly priced.

http://www.domain.com.au/Public/PropertyDetails.aspx?adid=2005713973#

or this which is slightly more expensive but has a pool and golf course views.

http://www.domain.com.au/Public/PropertyDetails.aspx?adid=2007077140#

[Jono]

Cheap build comment based on the quality of windows, the bathroom fittings shown, steel not brick posts, visibly far to few power points, no window dressings, perhaps too few light fittings (and the cheapest ones you can buy).

I stand by my desk top opinion that this proeprty is somewhere around $75k overpriced.

Compare it to the visible look and feel of this property which has a much greater level of detail in its finishing -which is not disimilarly priced.

http://www.domain.com.au/Public/PropertyDetails.aspx?adid=2005713973#

or this which is slightly more expensive but has a pool and golf course views.

http://www.domain.com.au/Public/PropertyDetails.aspx?adid=2007077140#

Yeah, but Macquarie Links is not really where I want to live. (other than the golf course) At least Helensburg is surrounded by suburbs like Stanwell Park. Great properties there.

If I managed to buy for $650k, do you think that's fair?

[Jono]

BTW, my plan is to live in Helensburgh, get a job in Wollongong (30 min drive) and live there for about 10 years. By then, I should have enough money to buy a decent place in Sydney. :roll:

[miro]

Jono

The houses above were not to suggest you should buy them but for you to look at the relative look and feel of the finished product. My opinion would be the same house located at both MAcq Links or Helensburgh would sell for a premium of some substance at MAcq Links over Helensburgh.

You need to find out what has sold in HBurgh recently at that price -my gut feel is the answer will be virtually nothing (note there are spec homes i.e. land with house to be built for you for $599k). This market will be very thin and in a tough market for mid priced homes it will be getting hamered at present.

As a final comment let me just say you could buy that HBurgh house in the outer west for $550k at most. HBurgh is not a superior location (its just different) and certainly does not justify that sort of price point. Without having confirmatory detail at hand I would be very careful of that market.

[Courty]

Jono, if you're seriously interested in the house, pay a building inspector to give it a thorough checkover.

[Jono]

Gees Miro ... You make it sound like HELLsburgh ... :roll:

I do appreciate your opinion on this but I think you are a bit biased.


My opinion would be the same house located at both MAcq Links or Helensburgh would sell for a premium of some substance at MAcq Links over Helensburgh.


You could be right, but that could also mean that houses in Macquarie Links are inflated beyond their true worth.

Macquarie Links Profile (http://www.domain.com.au/public/SuburbProfile.aspx?mode=research&searchterm=Macquarie%20Links#mapanchor)

Helensburgh Profile (http://www.domain.com.au/Public/SuburbProfile.aspx?searchTerm=Helensburgh&mode=research#mapanchor)

Have a look at the Macquarie Links Profile. I'm no expert, but the long term trend of -4.3% doesn't sound good. Compare that to the long term trend of the region (8.9%) and you get the sense that the Macquarie Links prices are inflated and due to go down. Is this a fair interpretation?

If you look at the Helensburgh Profile the long term trend is more favourable. In fact, if I wanted to get a good bargain, it seems like a unit in Helensberg is the way to go.

But .... and this is a big but ... what's really important? Do I really want to live in a home that I don't like because the value is going to go up in 10 years? I want to live in a home that I like to live in ... now.



You need to find out what has sold in HBurgh recently at that price -my gut feel is the answer will be virtually nothing (note there are spec homes i.e. land with house to be built for you for $599k). This market will be very thin and in a tough market for mid priced homes it will be getting hamered at present.

A 4 bed room single storey house with no view sold for $620k. Large 5 bedroom house on 911m2 block sold for $715k. Again no views. So I think if I can get the price down to $650k - $670k, it's a fair price.


As a final comment let me just say you could buy that HBurgh house in the outer west for $550k at most. HBurgh is not a superior location (its just different) and certainly does not justify that sort of price point. Without having confirmatory detail at hand I would be very careful of that market.

Well, it's difficult to define superior. Consider this. Helensburgh is surrounded by protected land. There are more and more Sydneysiders coming down and building good quality homes. It's 10 minute drive to beach. It's 50 min to Sydney City and 1 hour and a quarter by train. 30 min to Wollongong by car and 40 minutes by train. The view is simply stunning. To get that kind of view in the west, you'd have to get out to the Blue Mountains.

I appreciate your comments about the quality of the building and I'll take that on board. I'll get an independent evaluation of the property before I make an offer.

I've lived in Wollongong pretty much since Aug 07. It is beautiful. Surrounded by mountains and the ocean. Plenty of work (in my field, anyway) available. I think a lot of Sydneysiders underrate it.

[markTHEblake]

Jono - regardless of anything else, Dont sign any purchase contract until your solicitor has read it no matter what.

I really like that house in the pics - though i have no perception of the price. :-)

as for being a battleaxe block, well if values in the area double in the next 10 years, yours will double too, if you purchase it at its relative value to other houses in the area now. :-)

[3oneday]

Dont sign any purchase contract until your solicitor has read it no matter what.do people still do that ?

I think the house looks great Jono, now go lowball them !!!!!!! :lol:

[Jono]

I think the house looks great Jono, now go lowball them !!!!!!! :lol:

Nah ... I might do some tyre kicking first. ;)

:lol:

[3oneday]

Nah ... I might do some tyre kicking first. ;)

:lol:maybe you could start a thread for advice on that, you would be overwhelmed around here with the responses :lol:

[markTHEblake]

do people still do that ?

all the time, and as a guess, most of them.

been on the phone all night with someone who signed a contract without a finance clause and the only chance of getting a loan is if he can sell his existing house - and only then if the psycho ex signs a sale contract which he needs to get a court order to force her.

the other concern is agents that modify the building inspection clauses, ie weakening the buyers position.

[miro]

Gees Miro ... You make it sound like HELLsburgh ... :roll:

I do appreciate your opinion on this but I think you are a bit biased.



You could be right, but that could also mean that houses in Macquarie Links are inflated beyond their true worth.

Have a look at the Macquarie Links Profile. I'm no expert, but the long term trend of -4.3% doesn't sound good. Compare that to the long term trend of the region (8.9%) and you get the sense that the Macquarie Links prices are inflated and due to go down. Is this a fair interpretation?


Jono,

The reason I chose Macq Links was due to the fact it is a "superior" location within its greater surroundings which is similar to the characteristics of Helensburgh. Both are surrounded by lesser areas both have their attractions (ML -golf course and private estate, HB -national parks limiting growth/village feel). You will see that ML average price is about 50% higher than the surrounding suburbs.

So to me both suburbs experience potentially the same issue -relatively expensive new stock when exisitng stock in the area can be had at much lower prices (but it is all sh..t).

Finally the problem with those stats on HB is that the market is soo thin that any substantial sale (the one you mentioned in the PM) will heavily distort the numbers. So treat them with some caution, however I am certain ML is under some price pressure at present.

I am merely trying to raise issues for you to consider -when you have satisfeid yourself then go buy.

[poidda]

Nice pad Jono!

If you like it, and you think it's worth what your paying for it, and done a little research, than be happy with it. If it's sole purpose is to make money, than you will need to do more research and settle for something you don't particularly want. From what I understand you are buying a home to live in for a bit, rather than something to turn over and make above average capital gains. If it's your ideal house, and you can see you living in it for the near future, who cares if it only makes 5% per annum instead of 7% you could have made in a house/area you don't particularly want to live it.

When you're spending ($)$650k, fittings etc are the cheap things you can replace over time.

When's the house warming? ;)

[PeteyD]

Why do you not buy a home in the Gong if you are gonna be working there?

[amanda]

Jono - just a thought if you want to live within driving distance to Wollongong.

What about Bingara Gorge? Golf course living within driving distance to the Gong.
www.bingaragorge.com.au (http://www.bingaragorge.com.au)

Also - what does your partner think about moving so far out from civilisation? For decent hair dressers and the types of shops she likes - she'd have to drive a fair way.

Like Blakey I strongly suggest doing lots of due diligence on this one. In the current market properties are not really flying out the door - I'd find out how long the house has been on the market. Since the pictures are of an empty place - it indicates that it may have been on there for a while, vendors may be willing to sell for a reduced price.

[markTHEblake]

I'd find out how long the house has been on the market.

Miro will do this for you cos he is a nice bloke. Takes him 10 secs :-)

Can get basic property sales info at www.onthehouse.com.au for NSW and Qld you can see the landsize and last sale on any property - no cost or signup

[mrsbrisvegas]

I like it Jono. By the way you originally described the brickwork I thought it would be awful but it looked good. However, I can understand why you might want to cover it to make it easier to match furnishings etc.

Plus looks like it would fit visitors from Brisbane with babies and toddlers! :wink:

[BrisVegas]

That house looks great Jono! If you and your pre-wife are happy with it, don't let miro talk you out of it. Not every decision comes down to pure numbers...

[Jono]

Plus looks like it would fit visitors from Brisbane with babies and toddlers! :wink:

Come down, come down. The house should fit Mr Vegas, Mrs Vegas and the two little Vegases ... :lol:

[Moe Norman]

Jono - just a thought if you want to live within driving distance to Wollongong.

What about Bingara Gorge? Golf course living within driving distance to the Gong.
www.bingaragorge.com.au (http://www.bingaragorge.com.au)

It's a Delfin estate, why would anyone want to live in a 'Development' especially a Delfin one!

[Jono]

Quick question guys. These are what I need to do to the property.

1) Gyprock the wall downstairs and put extra power points in the living room - estimated around $5000

2) Redo the downstairs windows and the main glass door out to the backyard. I don't know why, but they didn't frame the hole for the windows or the glass door downstairs. The metal window frame is directly stuck onto the brick edge. Upstairs has regular frames ... :? Any idea how much this would cost? Should I just cut out a bit more of the hole in the brick wall so I can frame it and then place the original windows back? Or should I leave the hole as it is and find a new frame/window set? This, I presume would be more expensive. Any ideas on price?

3) New curtains/blinds. Any idea on price to fit the hole house? Nice, neat vertical blinds would do me.

[goughy]

Verticals are so 80's!! There are some really good window treatments these days. Been told up here that 5k will do a standard 4 bedroom, lounge and open plan house. Maybe a bit more down there.

If all the windows fit the brickwork snug, then I would think it would cost a lot more to cut out the brickwork to make the originals fit. And a lot messier.

[3oneday]

These are what I need to do to the property.

1) Gyprock
2) Redo the downstairs windows and the main glass door out to the backyard.
3) New curtains/blinds.

so it's not livable without these things???. Pity.

:roll:

[miro]

Quick question guys. These are what I need to do to the property.

1) Gyprock the wall downstairs and put extra power points in the living room - estimated around $5000

2) Redo the downstairs windows and the main glass door out to the backyard. I don't know why, but they didn't frame the hole for the windows or the glass door downstairs. The metal window frame is directly stuck onto the brick edge. Upstairs has regular frames ... :? Any idea how much this would cost? Should I just cut out a bit more of the hole in the brick wall so I can frame it and then place the original windows back? Or should I leave the hole as it is and find a new frame/window set? This, I presume would be more expensive. Any ideas on price?

3) New curtains/blinds. Any idea on price to fit the hole house? Nice, neat vertical blinds would do me.

Ok Big Fella this is my last "cynics" comments. Try and remember I am only trying to make sure the right questions not trying to stop you buying. With regard to the above order of questions:

1. On the Gyprock you have a comment from the Agent on price to fix. The agent is never to be trusted on this stuff as their sole interest in this is selling you the poperty and hence have no interest in giving you a genuine estimate. If they have as you mentioned received the estimate from a local subbie get their name and talk to them direct. This will not cost you $5k by the time you are completed. BTW when I talked Alison through the work required and told her the agent thought it would cost $5k she simply laughed.

2. You say you "don't know why" the downstairs windows were done that way. As I have said before this appears a cheaply built house and this is simply another example. When you start to add these things up it indicates you to start looking at the invisibles to make sure they have been done well. Waterproofing, insulation etc etc. I would be surprised if this property was built by an established home builder, I would expect it will have been built by a builder as a side project. To the actual question, it is hard to address without some photos -yeah I know that was useless -cutting brick is a defitinite don't do. New windows will be the option but I wonder if there isn't another way to do it.

3. Get an estimate of total window area, i.e. a schedule of each window width and drop and take it to one of the Blinds shops and get a quote. $5k may get you there but I would be surpirsed as this is a reasonably large house.

4. I assume that the proeprty comes with Home Warranty insurance -statuatory requirement but just make sure.


Finally, I had a look at the individual sales in Helensburgh over the past two years and the highest priced comparable home sold to date was $620k (there are a few acreages sold at higher prices). This should be considered top dollar for a battleaxe.

[Peter]

Jono,

I'm with PeteyD - why not live in Wollongong? I grew up down that way and it is a fantastic part of the world. Unless there are other factors that make you want to be closer to Sydney (ie. family, friends, study, etc).

[mike]

I grew up there too.

It's a hole.

[Peter]

What suburb were you in?

[amanda]

Jono doesn't want to live in the Gong because of the pollution coming from the smelter and associated increases in related illnesses.

I'd be interested to see the price the builder purchased the land for - did they buy at the top of the boom as a knock-down rebuild and are now trying to recoup their costs? I concur with Miro about the quality of the finishes - the supporting posts upstairs on the balcony are still galvanised steel - not even painted!

On the window & door trimmings downstairs - could it be as simple as fixing some architraves?

[amanda]

It's a Delfin estate, why would anyone want to live in a 'Development' especially a Delfin one!
Hi Moe - strangely enough we never thought we'd be "estate" or "development" ppl either! But here we are hoping to start our new dream home on a golf course estate. I like the idea of having access to facilities like swimming pools, tennis courts - I know we could build a pool - but I'd hate to have to maintain it!

I don't particularly like the typical sydney estates with 400sqm land and houses that cover 80%.

[Peter]

Amanda,

I should probably already know this - but isn't that just certain suburbs close to the steelworks?

[amanda]

Peter - I'm not sure - the plumes of pollution that come from the steel works probably spread all around the region on the winds. As well as that there are collieries (coal mines) near by as well.

Mind you - in Hunters Hill (a fairly exclusive suburb in Sydney) they found houses built on an old nuclear facility.

Perhaps John has seen more of the medical research than is reported in the news.

[haysey]

Quick question guys. These are what I need to do to the property.

1) Gyprock the wall downstairs and put extra power points in the living room - estimated around $5000

2) Redo the downstairs windows and the main glass door out to the backyard. I don't know why, but they didn't frame the hole for the windows or the glass door downstairs. The metal window frame is directly stuck onto the brick edge. Upstairs has regular frames ... :? Any idea how much this would cost? Should I just cut out a bit more of the hole in the brick wall so I can frame it and then place the original windows back? Or should I leave the hole as it is and find a new frame/window set? This, I presume would be more expensive. Any ideas on price?

3) New curtains/blinds. Any idea on price to fit the hole house? Nice, neat vertical blinds would do me.

Jono,
Re; Item 2. Do you have any better photo's of the windows? Based on the photo's in the thread it looks like all you need to do is fit timber architrave around the windows when you have the place gyprocked.

The last thing you want to do is pull those windows out as I'm guessing they are probably fin fixed. Which means they are fixed using nails that are hidden behind the outside block. (Of course if its a single block house then scrap what i've just said)

[Jono]

Guys, thanks for the tips.

I decided not to live in Wollongong because of the steel works. Really an eye sore and don't know whether it's related but the people in Wollongong have 4 times the rate of vasculitis compared to Sydney.

I had a nice stroll around the Helensburgh shopping center area yesterday before I started work. Talked to a couple of people at the cafe ... One had moved from Eastern Suburbs. She love it in Helensburgh. Great for the kids too with the public school and the Catholic private school there. There is definitely a community atmosphere like you get in coutry towns. I like it. The advantage is that it's not in the middle of woop woop.

Miro, there has been recent sales in Helensburgh in 600's and one in low 700's. Majority of the houses are old and around $400k. However, there is a new development (?Lancom) consisting of a new street, parkland and rows of houses. Looks a bit out of place with the rest of Helensburgh but houses are going for $600k to $700k.

RE: quality of the building. I will investigate this. I'll get an independent evaluation before I sign anything. You might say the stuff downstairs are dodgy and cost cutting, but then it's strange they would make the ceilings 10 foot high! Is this a cost cutting measure too?

The owner grew up in the property. He then subdivided the land. The house was just built and has never been lived in.

[amanda]

You might say the stuff downstairs are dodgy and cost cutting, but then it's strange they would make the ceilings 10 foot high! Is this a cost cutting measure too?
Jono - it's appealing to people who wish to live in the area. It's cheaper to have shorter ceilings.

One caveat - rooms with 10 ft ceilings are notoriously difficult to cool and heat effectively (if you were building a new house now - it would be very difficult to get 10' ceilings past the BASIX assessment). You may need to install ceiling fans to push warm air down to the floor level in winter. A/c will need to work harder in summer.

You mentioned window dressings in an earlier post. A house loses it's heat and allows cold in during winter via it's windows. Vertical blinds have absolutely no thermal efficiency. That is, they do absolutely nothing to stop heat loss. In winter therefore you can't simply heat the house up, then close windows & doors to keep it in - it will keep seeping out.

Verticals are used a lot in developments as they are cheap as chips. If you want to keep heat out in summer, and in your house in winter - the most efficient thing to do is have curtains with pelmets. More expensive - but will save you money in the long run.

Plenty more info on windows, bushfire, heating/cooling etc here:
http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/index.html

[goughy]

I make pelmets! Could have them trucked down to ya ;)

And Amanda is spot on. Windows are the worst for the cold etc.

[mike]

What suburb were you in?

Northern suburbs. Thirroul then Coledale. Probably the pick of the Illawarra region but still a hole.

[mike]

When I was in U7's junior soccer we could never beat Helensburgh.

Man they were good.

[Jono]

One caveat - rooms with 10 ft ceilings are notoriously difficult to cool and heat effectively (if you were building a new house now - it would be very difficult to get 10' ceilings past the BASIX assessment). You may need to install ceiling fans to push warm air down to the floor level in winter. A/c will need to work harder in summer.


Hmmm ... good point. I'll see what insulation measures they've taken. It does get cold in winter in Helensburgh.




You mentioned window dressings in an earlier post. A house loses it's heat and allows cold in during winter via it's windows. Vertical blinds have absolutely no thermal efficiency. That is, they do absolutely nothing to stop heat loss. In winter therefore you can't simply heat the house up, then close windows & doors to keep it in - it will keep seeping out.

Verticals are used a lot in developments as they are cheap as chips. If you want to keep heat out in summer, and in your house in winter - the most efficient thing to do is have curtains with pelmets. More expensive - but will save you money in the long run.


We like the elegance and the unobstructed views that blinds provide. Furthermore curtains need more looking after, don't they? What about roller blinds? Do they provide better insulation?

[PeteyD]

Roller blinds are crap. Verticle blinds are pretty crap too. You can get some reasonalbe curtains from Target and other houses of Fashion now ;)

[amanda]

Hmmm ... good point. I'll see what insulation measures they've taken. It does get cold in winter in Helensburgh.
I'd request to see the BASIX certificate for the house - it will specify the wall and ceiling insulation that the govt required them to have. That will give you an idea of how warm/cool the house will be in winter/summer.


We like the elegance and the unobstructed views that blinds provide. Furthermore curtains need more looking after, don't they? What about roller blinds? Do they provide better insulation?
Vertical blinds usually are fitted into the window frame - so when opened - you usually lose some of the view out of the sides of the windows because of the blinds.

With curtains - they are usually designed so that when open - you see out the whole window. That is, the curtains collect or gather on the wall, not within the window.

Roller blinds get tricky when you want to have the window open - if not fully up - the blind tends to bang and make a lot of noise.

So regardless of the window dressing (vertical blinds, roller blinds, roman blinds, curtains) - you have the same outlook when the blinds are fully open. It appears that you're at the top of the hill - so you don't have to worry about people looking in.

As for cleaning - I vaccuumed our curtains once every 6 months - pretty easy to do. For our verticals - I needed to use a damp cloth and wipe down each blade individually because they just didn't handle the high suction of our vaccuum cleaner.

Our plan is to use double curtains - a sheer layer so that you still get light and the view, then blockout layer to really keep the heat in and light out (if you're watching a movie in the daytime). If you like it to get really dark - verticals don't really do a good job.

You can always use a combination of window dressings depending on the use.

Obviously verticals are cheapest - but good curtains will last more than 10 yrs and provide heating and cooling benefits over the long term (which may save you electricity)

You mentioned the new land sales being made in the area:
http://www.landcom.com.au/project/gymeaglade-helensburgh.aspx

Top price is $390,000 for 700sqm.

[Jono]

I'd request to see the BASIX certificate for the house - it will specify the wall and ceiling insulation that the govt required them to have. That will give you an idea of how warm/cool the house will be in winter/summer.


Does every house have BASIX certificate? What if it doesn't? Does that mean that it doesn't meet government's requirements?

On that note, I asked them about water tanks. They don't have any. I thought all new homes required a water tank? :-s



Our plan is to use double curtains - a sheer layer so that you still get light and the view, then blockout layer to really keep the heat in and light out (if you're watching a movie in the daytime). If you like it to get really dark - verticals don't really do a good job.


What about this?

http://www.blindswholesale.com.au/page/duo_roller_blinds.html

These duo roller blinds can perform similar task as the double curtains. Looks pretty elegant too. If you used the right material and put the roller completely over the window, I can't see why these can't block out as much light as a curtain.




You mentioned the new land sales being made in the area:
http://www.landcom.com.au/project/gymeaglade-helensburgh.aspx

Top price is $390,000 for 700sqm.

That Gymea Glade area is the south part of Helensburgh. The houses on the Old Quarry Cct are very nice but bunched up. They're very close to each other. They are selling between high 500's and 700k. These sales don't seem to come up in RP databases.

The property we're looking at is at the northern end of Helensburgh. Tend to be older homes but closer to the national park and better views. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think the northen part is better.

I'd be interested to hear what you and Brad think of the area and the house after you see it.

[markTHEblake]

Jono, when I bought a house I went to the council and paid about $100 and got every peice of paper they had about the place. Soil Test, plans, contours, you name it.

Not that i understood much of it, but it did prove that there wasnt any dodgy extensions etc.

As it is a new house, The seller will have a heap of plans handy, I am sure that the selling agent can grovel to the seller to give you a copy of everything he has. He wouldnt have any reason not to show you, as its all public info anyway.

[Grunt]

Depends how new it is Jono. Think the Basix test was only implemented around 2006.

[amanda]

Does every house have BASIX certificate? What if it doesn't? Does that mean that it doesn't meet government's requirements?

On that note, I asked them about water tanks. They don't have any. I thought all new homes required a water tank? :-s
It depends on when plans were submitted to council and approved. Since the house was finished just at the beginning of this year - I would hope they would have one. I know that now all new homes must have a BASIX certificate before construction can begin. MTB's idea of going to council and getting a copy of all relevant docs.




What about this?

http://www.blindswholesale.com.au/page/duo_roller_blinds.html

These duo roller blinds can perform similar task as the double curtains. Looks pretty elegant too. If you used the right material and put the roller completely over the window, I can't see why these can't block out as much light as a curtain.
To keep any heat in a house in winter - whatever curtain material you use should keep a layer of air between the window and the window dressing. If you have a pelmet on top of the roller blind then it would be as good as curtains if the blinds were made of an appropriately rated thermal material. Lots of different materials available for these.


I'd be interested to hear what you and Brad think of the area and the house after you see it.
Yep - can't wait to see it in a few weeks :)

[kpac]

dont get caught up with any BASIX report jono, as someone who has done these reports their actually significants to thermal and environmental efficiency is NIL. A proper thermal approach requires more than curtains and a print out. It'd be the least of my concerns if i were purchasing as i'd go to the measures i believe necessary to make the house more efficient (this doesn't have to be drastic or expensive by the way!)

Blakes suggestion about getting the plans is valid though, download the application form from the council website (most have them these days) and tick off any plans of relevance, should cost less that $200, and handy to have...

[amanda]

kpac - but wouldn't it be useful to see the R-values for ceiling and wall insulation? And what materials the windows are made out of? Aluminium vs uPVC, standard glazing vs low-e vs double?

[kpac]

kpac - but wouldn't it be useful to see the R-values for ceiling and wall insulation? And what materials the windows are made out of? Aluminium vs uPVC, standard glazing vs low-e vs double?

not really to be honest..... If jono wants to insulate his house, hell do it once he get bitterly cold in the winter or if it is scorchingly hot in the summer. What's jono going to do with a R-Value?
BASIX is just a set of numbers that generates the house "value", the numbers mean nothing - it's true, even the person that prepares this report will admit this, and this is why it's getting the can. BASIX - BURS - SMARTRATE and all the rest have proven to be ineffective to produce efficient houses. There's a new system that is being worked up and is far more effective, that should be encouraged (but i don't think is quite there yet)
Glass, window material, insulation, floor/wall structure - should all be listed on his building inspection (but he can also inspect them himself).

The BASIX report unfortunately is only to provide information to the certifying body. It is pretty useless to the home owner. - Well no, not useless, but doesn't tell them how efficient there house is.
I'll tell you why - Ask the BASIX report guy to get a 5star report for a 5 by 10 small unit with concrete roof, concrete floor and concrete walls with thermal air movement wall cavities, even if all the windows are covered in a squillion curtains and it has 1meter overhang on the west/north. They cant (well not without going stupid.) and it is made out of all the right stuff and all the correct environmental measures....
Give them a 700sqm mcmansion with 600mm overhang, a squirt of wool in the ceiling, block veneer uninsulated walls, with no solar orientation and they'll pump you out a 5 star rating. The system is seriously faulted by size.


What will jono benifit by seeing a BASIX report? nothing more than the stop gap measures required for a poorly thermal efficient building. Have a look at the structure and have a decent building inspector go over the place to give you an idea of what you've got to work with (materials etc)

Amanda, i agree with you suggestions, window treatments help, etc etc. All this is good advise. If jono is looking to put in an offer on this house i wouldn't get caught up with whether this house has a good rating with BASIX, it is not a thermally efficient or sustainable building, we can see that. If he likes it for what it is there are far more important pieces of information he could gather.
Blake's suggestion of the archive plans is a good one.
Building inspection (get a thorough one,) dare i say it, it doesn't look like a standard construction method.
Miro's suggestions of value of house and area, would be far more of a concern.

[amanda]

BASIX is just a set of numbers that generates the house "value", the numbers mean nothing - it's true, even the person that prepares this report will admit this, and this is why it's getting the can.
any idea on when this is happening?

[haysey]

Is it possible that house could have a "5 star" energy rating?

Just curious because those windows and doors look like they are single pane / clear glass glazed into aluminium and surely that would preclude any sort of decent energy rating.

I'm not suggesting Jono shouldn't buy the house( Hell I'd buy it.) I'm just interested in N.S.W energy ratings methods.

[kpac]

Is it possible that house could have a "5 star" energy rating?

Just curious because those windows and doors look like they are single pane / clear glass glazed into aluminium and surely that would preclude any sort of decent energy rating.

I'm not suggesting Jono shouldn't buy the house( Hell I'd buy it.) I'm just interested in N.S.W energy ratings methods.

Brilliant question Haysey. I'm Qld based and things a slightly different, energy rating wise between the states. BASIX is used in NSW - BURS in QLD, we talk stars NSW talk "PASS" same stuff

First answer, YES - potentially that house could get a 5 star rating. You loose all the energy you want out the windows and contain it in other structural aspects of the building, you continue to work on this principal and the house could get 5 stars. Stupid isn't it.
Realistically that house doesnt have a "5 star" rating, it gets a "pass" (or what used to be a 3.5 star rating qld talk.) 3.5 stars basically means that you're a bit better than you neighbor to me.

The biggest problem for me is 2 fold: one that there are compensatory measures indicated to resolve what is basically poor design. ie, have no overhangs but fill you roof with insulation, one compensates the other (apparently :roll:) Secondly, like i mention before, it works on energy use per sq meter. :shock:

An example of how stupid this is. (QLD)
Person wishes to build a house. Sends his 'x developers' plans off to BURS person, who specifies 'x' much insulation in ceilings and sun screening to western windows. to get 3.5 rating.
Owner takes it apon themselves to look at this extra cost. (calcuations are easy enough to do yourself if you've got the time.
Re submitts same plans of 25% bigger house to BURS person. NO insulation and NO screening required for 3.5 star rating.

The STUPIDEST part of this whole thing is it is easier to get a good thermal efficiency rating with a large house, than a small one.
WHICH HOUSE DO YOU THINK USES THE MOST ENERGY???? :smt013:smt013:smt013:smt013:smt013:smt013:smt013: smt013

What a dumb system, so not only do they encourage larger houses, but the larger houses don't have to be as efficient, and they use more energy due to sheer size.


Sorry mate, got a little off topic, again. Going to go watch football now, but thermal efficiency 'rating' NSW or QLD (probably the other states as well) has been proven not to work as they had intended.



AMANDA - i believe BASIX themselves are looking to incorporate this new form of calculation, so when i say "they are getting the can" that's incorrect they will continue to exist i'd imagine, they'll just update their calculations. However i would have hoped that they could standardise the system across the country....

[Jono]

Guys, I saw this house again last night, this time with my partner. There's no doubt about it. This house has a definite "Wow" factor about it, even at night. (BTW, the sun sets directly in the middle of the view from the house. OMG ... =P~ )

The more and more I look at the house, I can't get past how unusual it is. Upstairs is absolutely immaculate. Ducted heatin was turned on for us. Nice ... The bathroom and ensuite had heated tiles. Yummy ...

Now you go downstairs. Brick finish. Yuck ... but can be fixed. Windows and sliding doors installed directly onto the brick. Looks cheap and harder to fix ... Only one power point in the living area and this is behind the stairs. And the ducted air con doesn't go downstairs. WTF ... :shock:

The contrast between the two floors is dramatic. It almost seems like the owners ran out of money. :?

[miro]

There is no such thing as a bad property, only a bad price.

[haysey]

kpac:lol:,

Sorry mate, didn't mean to provoke you just before another great queensland win:smt038.

Based on what you've said, the whole ratings thing is a sham and should be scrapped.

I've got to admit that I have very little to do with domestic construction anymore, but it makes no sense to rate things the way you've described.

Are the changes to the rating system you talked about going to fix it or paper over the cracks some more?

Out of interest, I have a glass and glazing handbook from 1998 that talks about something called NatHERS, which was supposed to be a national standardised house energy rating scheme coming in about that time. Wonder whatever happened to that.



Jono, sorry about the threadjack:oops:.

If you get the downstairs walls gyprocked, get the gyprock offset from the walls and run electrical wiring for powerpoints down behind it.

Your gyprocker should be able to return gyprock into the windows as well. Alternatively timber architrave as mentioned previously, would work to.

Are split system airconditioners a possibility?

[amanda]

Guys, I saw this house again last night, this time with my partner. There's no doubt about it. This house has a definite "Wow" factor about it, even at night. (BTW, the sun sets directly in the middle of the view from the house. OMG ... =P~ )
So the main living areas face west? Lucky you have those nice wide balconies to help keep out the heat. Do the bedrooms get morning sun? (from the east)


The contrast between the two floors is dramatic. It almost seems like the owners ran out of money. :?
Common amongst owner-builders! Lots of those in my parent's area - I know of at least 4 half finished houses because owners are saving to finish them!

If that is the case - you could pick up a bargain ;)

[PeteyD]

Yea bargain it could be. I'd be concerned about the summer sun if the house faces west. Watching sunsets in winter is nice. Having your retinas burnt out in summer kinda sucks.

[Moe Norman]

I love the title of this thread

"question for Tezza and other builders"

All he has recieved is pages of dribble of people who aren't really qualified to give any advice, apart from Kpac who is at least an architect!

(although aren't architects the ones that cause all the problems for builders and engineers anyway? ;) )

[mike]

I thought Tez was a plumber.

[Moe Norman]

he is

[mike]

A plumber isn't a builder

[Moe Norman]

thanks for clearing that up

[markTHEblake]

A plumber isn't a builder

Tezza really knows this shit though

[senecio]

A plumber isn't a builder

He takes a pretty mean photo, for a plumber.

[3oneday]

thanks for clearing that up


Tezza really knows this shit though


He takes a pretty mean photo, for a plumber.

Finally, some sense in this thread !

[kpac]

All he has recieved is pages of dribble of people who aren't really qualified to give any advice, apart from Kpac

my advice was dribble too don't worry. ;)

[PeteyD]

Do you think he expected anything other than dribble? And being like he is everything is ignored anyway ;)

[goughy]

I only commented on the soft furnishings!

[Jono]

There is no such thing as a bad property, only a bad price.

You hit it right on the head, Miro. I love this property. Best I've seen so far and suits me and my partner to the ground. Some might say the backyard is too small ... it is perfect for us. Some might say the battle axe block loses its value. We love the privacy.

Of course, I have to check out the quality of the building, but the owner insists he didn't cut any corners. I'm going to get an independent evaluation and see.

In the end, the major issue is the price. If I pay what the owners want, it'll be in the top five in terms of the price payed for a Helensburgh property (not including acreages). It certainly is one of the better houses in Helensburgh ...

[miro]

Jono,

You are a smart guy. If you have done your homework and you are confident that this house belongs in the top 5 prices then go do a deal. I stand by my belief that this is a good time to be buying in markets like HBurg so play some hard ball.

Good luck.

Miro

[Jono]

Someone has put in an offer of $695k and the agent rang me to ask if I wanted to top it. I told them as much as I love the property, I won't be paying more than $685k. The owners have decided to accept $695k so my search for a new home continues ... 8)

[BrisVegas]

what a coincidence! Same price as that house you were looking at in Brookwater yesterday.... do it jono... come to Qld... :wink:

[Jono]

what a coincidence! Same price as that house you were looking at in Brookwater yesterday.... do it jono... come to Qld... :wink:

Tempting Dion, very tempting ...

[markTHEblake]

Never mind Jono, whilst it may sound dissapointing I have yet to ever meet someone who in your situation ended up buying a house they liked less than the one they lost.

[amanda]

We saw the house in question at an "Open for Inspection" yesterday

Great views and in a nice quiet spot.

On the finished quality of the house:
* plenty of halogen downlights upstairs but very few lights downstairs.
* kitchen was well constructed - though if you're going to the expense of using Caesarstone on the kitchen benchtops - why go for a cheap tile splashback? Glass splashbacks aren't that pricey. Fridge space is 850mm - not big enough to fit the modern 2-door side by side fridge/freezers.
* many of the doors are painted with what looked like flat white ceiling paint - and terrible paint jobs - 2nd coats weren't very good coverage
* for the bathrooms - I wonder if the vanities are builder's 2nds - none of the drawers or cupboards fit right - it seemed as though they were all a few mm too large - you really had to jam the drawers in to sit flush
* the downstairs brick work is really quite bad. The brick is a tumbled style - which is fine - but the mortar work is terrible - no raking of the mortar & crumbling in a few spots.
* the first few courses of bricks along the floor look like 2nd hand bricks or have not been properly cleaned - mud still on them
* you can see plastic sheeting in the brickwork
* downstairs where the ceiling cornice meets the brickwork - plenty of white paint all over the bricks


Overall you'd see better interior finish quality in most project builders. But it's structurally sound and nothing that you couldn't live with.

The house does feel very grand in the living areas and I could imagine relaxing on the back deck with a nice cool drink in summer. The view is fantastic - but there's nothing to stop the owner of the overlooking property from building a similar 2 storey place and cutting out much of your view.

The town is more bogan than I thought - while saying our farewells to John & his fiance on the main street - plenty of revved up utes with drivers in flanno shirts & ugg boots (and that was just the sheilas!) drove by almost doing burnouts on the way!

[markTHEblake]

Gee, I'd never of thought of asking an accountant to do a building inspection for me ;-)

Nice work.

[TS]

We saw the house in question at an "Open for Inspection" yesterday


So a house that is sold is open for inspection again.



The town is more bogan than I thought - while saying our farewells to John & his fiance on the main street - plenty of revved up utes with drivers in flanno shirts & ugg boots (and that was just the sheilas!) drove by almost doing burnouts on the way!

Don't forget we are talking about south of the harbour. Would you expecting anything different.

[Moe Norman]

Gee, I'd never of thought of asking an accountant to do a building inspection for me ;-)

Nice work.

see my earlier post :-k

[amanda]

Moe - I never said that I performed an inspection to the Building Standards & Tolerances code ;)

[amanda]

So a house that is sold is open for inspection again.
I think a verbal offer was accepted by the owner but contracts had not been exchanged.

[TS]

Moe - I never said that I performed an inspection to the Building Standards & Tolerances code ;)

Amanda. You may not be a builder, but I think you made some very valid point about the house.

[BrisVegas]

it's house buying by committee!

[markTHEblake]

Moe - I never said that I performed an inspection to the Building Standards & Tolerances code ;)

From what i have heard people say about some building inspectors it was a damn sight more thorough!

clearly you have been doing something other than playing golf in recent times :wink:

[Jono]

Guys, things have progressed. The realestate agent has come back to us saying the other buyers are stalling and that if we want to match their $695k and are prepared to sign the contract within the first 48 hours, then it's ours. Let the games begin. 8)

OK, my first step was to get our lawyers to have a look at the contract and also get a proper building inspection. The inspectors (H and K Ryan) went out the same day and gave me a detailed report that night via email.

1st thing that shocked me is that this property is 7 years old. That means that the owner took 7 years to complete this house. I had assumed it was around 1 year old.

The house does not meet Australian standards, according to the inspector. This is not a detailed inspection, but just a visual one. He noted two things that wouldn't pass the set standards.

a) the weep holes are ABOVE the floor level.
b) the concrete slabs in the driveway, garage and rear verandah don't have expansion joints and are cracking.

He has found other faults. My main concern is that the retaining wall behind the separate garage and to the side of it, has cracks. Don't know whether this is structural but I have asked for engineers certificate with regards to the retaining walls, concrete slabs and any structural steel beams.

The shower screens are leaking in 2 of four showers in the property. Couple of taps are loud and hammering due to the cheap nature of the taps.

The inspector, like Amanda, didn't like the brick work. Few spots needed further acid washing.

As Amanda mentioned, the drawers to the vanity units were very stiff.

In summary, the inspector described this property as " a typical owner builder construction". He couldn't see any obvious structural defects on visual inspection, but recommended us to get some (10) certificates and documentations.

Stay tuned for round two ...

[Jono]

Round 1.5

The inspector recommended we get the following from the owners:
1) Council's occupation certificate
2) Wet area and water proofing warranties and certificate
3) Plumbing and Electrical Certificates of compliance
4) Council approvals for the garage and the granny flat area
5) Engineers certificate for the slab, garage retaining walls and any structural beams
6) Pest treatment certificate and warranty
7) Final survey document
8 ) Home Owners Warranty certificate
9) Smoke alarms certificates
10) Shower screens glazing certificates

[Jono]

Round 2.

Council approval for the house and separate garage obtained.

Home Owners Warranty certificate obtained.

Final Survey Document obtained

So far so good.

Now comes the strange part.

Instead of a council's occupation certificate, they've got some strange 3rd party letter. It's from the following organisation:

http://www.localgroup.com.au/cert_aboutus.html

Here is what they wrote in the letter:

Reference is made to your recent request for a copy of the Occupation Certificate for the building works as referenced above.
As the Principal Certifying Authority was appointed prior to Marh 2004, Section 109M (2)(c) of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act 1979 did not require the issue of an Occupation Certificate for building works of this type.
Accordingly no Occupation Certificate has been or will be issued for the works.

Does this make sense? Does this mean that this property doesn't need a council's occupation certificate?
We can confirm however that this office carried out a 'final' inspection on 30/1/08 and this inspection revealed that the works had reached a stage of practical completion and was fit for occupation, at that time.

[goughy]

Owner builders, especially builders building their own homes can cut corners. Friends of mine had been renovating a house they bought from a builder. The roof was basically not tied down, and they were told that the only reason it hadn't blown off was because it was a huge tiled roof and just too heavy to move.

[shazza_rs]

My dad built our house under an owner builder arrangement. I know there were no corners cut in the building of our house. Maybe my dad is too much of a perfectionist to cut corners? I don't think you can blanket all owner builders into a dodgy category. It totally depends on the person building.

[Jono]

Here are some pics from the report:


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6893/01lt5.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/948/02bp0.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/5018/03on9.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4981/04db4.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8946/05lh9.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/586/06sp4.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4659/07da3.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9921/08re4.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/3682/09va8.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/8779/10ix2.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9455/11gh1.jpg

[goughy]

Sorry Shaz. I didn't mean all. And I didn't so much mean owner builders, as owner builders who are builders! I've heard of a couple up here that cut corners 'cause it's their own house!

[Courty]

Did the building inspectors give any advice about the severity of these items and whether the house is 'habitable' with all these faults?

Either way, I would expect this list should be plenty enough ammo to bargain for a substantial reduction in their asking price.

My one suggestion would be this: don't make an emotional decision when it comes to purchasing a house.

[Jono]

My dad built our house under an owner builder arrangement. I know there were no corners cut in the building of our house. Maybe my dad is too much of a perfectionist to cut corners? I don't think you can blanket all owner builders into a dodgy category. It totally depends on the person building.

You're absolutely right. Some owner builders are very meticulous and even go overboard. I've seen a property that was renovated by a builder and it was superb. He did everything overboard.

The problem is that there is more variation in standard with owner builders than building companies, I suppose.

[Jono]

Did the building inspectors give any advice about the severity of these items and whether the house is 'habitable' with all these faults?

Either way, I would expect this list should be plenty enough ammo to bargain for a substantial reduction in their asking price.

My one suggestion would be this: don't make an emotional decision when it comes to purchasing a house.

He said that this is a visual inspection only and can't say how severe these faults are. Some are purely cosmetic. Others are more serious. He recommended that I ask for an engineers certificate and if the owner doesn't have one get an engineer inspection before signing.

I have already asked the price to be decreased by $20k to $675k and asked for all the certificates. Let's see what they say ...

[damoocow]

Jono,
Obviously you really like this house - it almost seems though as if you are trying to get help in getting talked out of buying it ?..............I don't know what you are thinking but if you are hesitant you may want to offer a substantially reduced offer based on the 'extremely concerning' building report / inspection and if it is accepted then you get the house with some problems at a cheaper price and if not then it wasn't meant to be - if you don't buy this house I can tell you another better one will be along before you know it - I reckon offer them $50K under current price and wait it out ......

[Jono]

Jono,
Obviously you really like this house -

You think? :roll:



:lol:

[BrisVegas]

i was going to reply, but damo pretty much said everything i was going to. it's a buyer's market and there are numerous issues with the house (not necessarily deal breakers) that you can use as ammunition for a big price drop.

[Jono]

Yeah, Vegas. I was pretty disappointed with the worksmanship after I read the report. I should have got the building inspection done earlier.

I probably won't go with this property but I'd like to take it a bit further. So I'll try asking for a $50k price drop and see what they say.

[damoocow]

Yeah, Vegas. I was pretty disappointed with the worksmanship after I read the report. I should have got the building inspection done earlier.

I probably won't go with this property but I'd like to take it a bit further. So I'll try asking for a $50k price drop and see what they say.

Jono - any more consideration given to relocating to Brissie ? - Qld Health need your help !!

[markTHEblake]

Sorry Shaz. I didn't mean all. And I didn't so much mean owner builders, as owner builders who are builders! I've heard of a couple up here that cut corners 'cause it's their own house!

It doesnt really matter if the guy is an owner builder or a registered builder. The big difference is whether it was originally built for him to live in for much more than a year (eg capital gains) or that he just built it to sell.

Obviously there is a different motivation regarding construction costs in either situation.

[AndyP]

Guys, things have progressed. The realestate agent has come back to us saying the other buyers are stalling and that if we want to match their $695k and are prepared to sign the contract within the first 48 hours, then it's ours. Let the games begin. 8)Sounds like real estate agent games to me. Are there actually other buyers?

Don't be pressured into buying.

[Jono]

OK guys. I'm not buying this property anymore. Finished. Kaput.

Here was the last straw. These clauses were added AFTER the building inspection when I started asking why this property didn't have the council's occupancy certificate.

43.Subject to the provisions of Schedule 3 of the Conveyancing Act regulations, if the purchaser applies for a building certificate from the local council after the date of this contract and the council, after the date of this contract but before completion:

makes a work order under any legislation; OR
refuses to issue the certificate for any reason; OR
informs the purchaser of work to be done before it will issue the certificate, then

the purchaser will not make any objection, requisition, claim for compensation, delay completion nor require the vendor to do any work to the property to enable the certificate to issue.

44.Should the purchaser become entitled to rescind this contract for the breach of the warranty in clause 1(d) of Schedule 3, Part 1 of the Conveyancing (Sale of Land) Regulations, the vendor will also be entitled to rescind the contract provided such right is exercised before the purchaser has served his notice of rescission.

:smt013 :smt093

[Jono]

Another reason I pulled out. The owner basically didn't give any credit to the building inspection report.

Here's an email from him replying to my concerns. His is in blue.

The things that worry me the most are:

a) cracks in the retaining wall that is holding up the garage – That section of the retaining wall was not completed by us. This section was completed by the person we purchased the land from. We also request proof that this wall is “holding up the garage”, we are under a differing opinion
b) lack of expansion joints in the concrete slabs which causes cracks (cracks already evident in the driveway, single garage, and rear concreate veranda) – it is very rare that you will get a concrete slab that has no superficial hair line cracks. The driveway has more than subsequent cuts.
c) the building is 7 years old (ie the owner started building it 7 years ago). I was under the impression that this was started about 12 months ago. Please provide written and or photographic evidence that we commenced the building at this time. We are under a differing opinion.
d) the garage is not approved as a granny flat and unlikely to be approved even if internal modifications are made due to the structure being so close to the boundary. Therefore the kitchen should not be there. – We are not selling the property with a “granny flat”. It is a garage.

Let me refer to specific pages in the report that concerns me the most:

Page 7: "The weep holes are higher than the internal floor level, this is a non compliant item." This can cause moisture to build up on the floor. – Please supply measurement evidence of the height difference. We have not experienced any of the above concern.

Page 10: ground floor and ensuite showers leak. – Please note there is no photographic evidence in the report supporting the leaks in the ground floor bathroom. Betta has supplied a 5 year warranty on works completed excluding glass breakage.

Page 12: Note the cracks in the retaining wall to the end of the garage. This can pose as a major structural defect and can potentially cost tens of thousands of dollars to fix properly. Pls see our above comments to concern a)

Page 12: "concrete paths up the side of the dwelling have no expansion joints or drainge points evident –there are expansion joints between house and path.

Page 14: "The sewer vent is incomplete to the rear of the garage" This can potentially cause the effluent to leak out through the hole shown in the picture – original pipe was damaged and is yet to be replaced.

Page 14: "hot water unit is rusting at its base and the overflow pipe nees redirection into an appropriate drainage point – rusting is of normal wear and tear for the age of the unit

Page 22: Again shows the cracks in the retaining walls- Pls see our above comments to concern a)

Page 28: "Shower taps operation noisy when tested" According to the report, few of the taps "hammer" and are noisy mainly due to the low quality taps – we are satisfied with the quality of taps used. The subsequent purchaser may install “higher quality taps”.

[Grunt]

Plenty of other houses Jono, with current rates you may be able to find one you want quite cheap.

[Jono]

Thanks Grant. I had my heart set on this house but it's not meant to be ...

I'm going to keep on looking. There must be a perfect house for me and the missus somewhere ... 8)

[Grunt]

Maybe not the perfect house but the right house for the right price.

[BrisVegas]

Thanks Grant. I had my heart set on this house but it's not meant to be ...

I'm going to keep on looking. There must be a perfect house for me and the missus somewhere ... 8)

You know where it is mate.... it's adjacent to the 10th tee at Brookwater.;)

[damoocow]

Jono - perhaps you will take all this as a sign that it is time to relocate to Qld...

[BrisVegas]

jono - in case you lost it...

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bin/rsearch?a=o&f=0&p=10&t=res&ty=&c=15858245&s=qld&tm=1214518560&id=104821608&gts=1&gts-suburb=BROOKWATER|qld

think of it as a "tree-change".

[miro]

Yeah, Vegas. I was pretty disappointed with the worksmanship after I read the report. I should have got the building inspection done earlier.

I probably won't go with this property but I'd like to take it a bit further. So I'll try asking for a $50k price drop and see what they say.

Jono,

Dare I say I told you so -but "I told you so" -a mere 100 posts ago ;).

On a more serious note, just from the outside looking in virtually none of those inspection items are material in nature. By far the most concerning matter is the lack of Occupation Cert and the accompanying amendment to the contract -which implies no OC has been issued. That is the only "terminal" issue in the report -other than the apparent lack of honesty from the developer re teh age of the property.

Good luck on the next one -as Blakey said before there is always a better property just around the corner.

[Jono]

Jono,

Dare I say I told you so -but "I told you so" -a mere 100 posts ago ;).

On a more serious note, just from the outside looking in virtually none of those inspection items are material in nature. By far the most concerning matter is the lack of Occupation Cert and the accompanying amendment to the contract -which implies no OC has been issued. That is the only "terminal" issue in the report -other than the apparent lack of honesty from the developer re teh age of the property.

Good luck on the next one -as Blakey said before there is always a better property just around the corner.

The amendment to the contract is certainly worrying. However, the occupation certificate thing seems to be legit.

They've shown me a letter from the Local certifying company. It says:

Reference is made to your recent request for a copy of the Occupation Certificate for the building works as referenced above.
As the Principal Certifying Authority was appointed prior to Marh 2004, Section 109M (2)(c) of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act 1979 did not require the issue of an Occupation Certificate for building works of this type.
Accordingly no Occupation Certificate has been or will be issued for the works.



I've rung the council and the Local (www.localgroup.com.au (http://www.localgroup.com.au)) and above letter is legit and this house has been approved for occupancy by the Local group. Apparently, before 2004 you didn't need an Occupation Certificate.

The big caveat is that if one was to build something or add something to the structure of the house, you would need an Occupation Certificate.

[Moe Norman]

what a wanker

[miro]

The amendment to the contract is certainly worrying. However, the occupation certificate thing seems to be legit.

They've shown me a letter from the Local certifying company. It says:

Reference is made to your recent request for a copy of the Occupation Certificate for the building works as referenced above.
As the Principal Certifying Authority was appointed prior to Marh 2004, Section 109M (2)(c) of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act 1979 did not require the issue of an Occupation Certificate for building works of this type.
Accordingly no Occupation Certificate has been or will be issued for the works.



I've rung the council and the Local (www.localgroup.com.au (http://www.localgroup.com.au)) and above letter is legit and this house has been approved for occupancy by the Local group. Apparently, before 2004 you didn't need an Occupation Certificate.

The big caveat is that if one was to build something or add something to the structure of the house, you would need an Occupation Certificate.

Jono

I realise this is now a theoretical conversation but.

The above is in my opinion a load of crap. Section 109M requires (and has required for 30 years) issuance of an Occ Cert for ALL properties developed in NSW that require a DA, which the house clearly did.

Whether a PCA is involved or not is irrelevant.

I can only assume that given the evasive nature of the response from the PCA (building works of this nature?) that they are pulling a swifty.

This actually has me interested -you never know I might learn soemthing as I stand strongly by the fact that every new house in NSW for a very long time requires an Occ Cert and if Local have signed off on it then they should be producing it.

[Grunt]

Sort of off topic, I can't remember seeing an Occ Cert when my house got built. Is there something else when a builder builds it compared to an Owner Builder? All I remember doing before we actually moved in was do an inspection with a guy looking for faults that would have to be fixed immediately and other faults that would be fixed after we had moved in.

[amanda]

My limited understanding is that an occupation certificate must be issued by council when the house is at practical completion - which means walls plastered over and wet areas tiled. I think you can get your occupation certificate before your other floor areas are carpeted/tiled/wooden floor laid

[miro]

Basically issued when all pre conditions of the DA have been met. You can get an interim Oc which allows occupation prior to all works being completed.