Decisions based on minoritys

[sms316]

Had a very interesting discussion on the course yesterday about the whole art/child smut issue and also the RTD tax.

Whilst I'm no authority on art, it seems the main issue was about possibly stimulating the kiddy fiddler population. Increasing the tax on RTDs is aimed at young binge drinkers.

In both cases, decisions made by government have been based on governing the OVERWHELMING MINORITY of the population.

Kind of ironic given government is based on appealing to the masses.

:shock:

[Coffs_Hacker]

these decissions were aimed at the Masses.

The Masses don't want some sick F***er calling himself an artist taking kiddy porn photos and calling it art otherwise every child molester will start calling themselves artists. And the masses are sick of kids getting around Drunk

[markTHEblake]

Kind of ironic given government is based on appealing to the masses.

The masses voted em in, and in doing so we entrust them to govern the nation. That means making decisions that sometimes impact all of us, and sometimes a minority.

We cant have a referendum on everything :D

[Scottt]

Are you serious Coffs?! Are you truly serious?

Tell me about Bill Henson's art? Tell me why it's so offensive?

Most of all, tell me why it's such an isue now, when Henson's work has hung in some of Australia's most esteemed galleries for years without comment?

[Bruce]

Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy.

RTD and kiddies is just a ruse. If it were going to stop them drinking they why do the budget projections associated with it showing an increase in revenue over time. It's more a tax on bogans and their Woodstocks than kiddies.

The Henson issue is political opportunism. As Scottt says - he's been doing this for years but it is only now that a few pollies think they can score some points from it that it first hit the news.

As for your (emphasised) overwhelming majority - where did you pull that from? We are being governed by a mob that won 43% of the primary vote. The balance of power in the Senate is held partly by a bloke who polled less than 2% of the primary vote in his state. What a truly overwhelming majority.

[Jarro]

If his previous work was only pics of nude kids then i'm surprised it was exhibited at all.

Surely he must've done something better to have people praising his talents ?

[miro]

Sorry Bruce and sMS but nude (fulll frontal) photos of 13 year old girl are not art they are pornography. From the papers I understand that very very few of the photos show anything explicit but some did. Enough then -this is not art.

[Grunt]

Sorry Bruce and sMS but nude (fulll frontal) photos of 13 year old girl are not art they are pornography. From the papers I understand that very very few of the photos show anything explicit but some did. Enough then -this is not art.

Agree 100% if any is explicit then it should be gone.

[Webster]

Bruce & SMS,

Would you consent to allowing your 13 year old daughter to be photographed in that manner?

[3oneday]

Would you consent to allowing your 13 year old daughter to be photographed in that manner?that says as much about the parent(s) as the "artist"

[sms316]

Bruce & SMS,

Would you consent to allowing your 13 year old daughter to be photographed in that manner?

Not a snowflakes chance in hell - but then I also have no intention buying a ticket to see the pictures either.

Here is a slightly different spin on it;

Should Snugglepot & Cuddlepie get banned? Kiddy fiddlers probably get excited by that too.

[sms316]

Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy.


As for your (emphasised) overwhelming majority - where did you pull that from? We are being governed by a mob that won 43% of the primary vote. The balance of power in the Senate is held partly by a bloke who polled less than 2% of the primary vote in his state. What a truly overwhelming majority.
Bruce,

Perhaps you might want to read what I actually posted;

"In both cases, decisions made by government have been based on governing the OVERWHELMING MINORITY of the population."

What that meant was that a decision to govern the majority of people is due to a minority. What percentage of the population drink RTDs with the intention of getting blind all of the time? I drink 3 or 4 Wild Turkey & Cola stubbies during a round. Now they cost more because of a minority group getting drunk. Hmm... penalised because of kids who will just turn to something else anyway - that makes sense.

[markTHEblake]

I get you.

I guess its the same for most things though. Most people dont hijack plans with a plastic knife that was left in his breifcase after breakfast, but he gets subject to the full body search anyway.

[Bruce]

Sorry if I'm unclear here. I'm trying to say that both of these "issues" are prominent solely for political opportunism.

In no way do I support Henson or the Rudd government in either of these issues.

Henson has been doing similar work for nearly 30 years - but somehow avoided the front page until Miranda Devine sees it as an opportunity to pour a bit more petrol on the Milton Orkopoulos fires for the NSW government.

The RTDs are just a cash grab while waving the "won't someone think of the children" flag to claim to be solving a problem that doesn't really exist and won't actually be solved .

[Scottt]

The RTD tax decision just screams "not thought out clearly".

A six-pack of Smirnoff Double Blacks now costs nearly as much as a 700ml bottle. So the kiddies (from my random poll of the six or seven teens I know well) are just buying a bottle and drinking the lot.

I asked a few guys at work and they said their kids had said the same thing. Kids are clueys - in this instance probably much more cluey than the Rudd Government!!

Re: Henson, I'm not going to comment further - I just realised I was heading down the path of debating the validity of art with a scrum of Queenslanders and realised that it wasn't going to end well :D

[Dotty]

Both decisions could also be seen as giving the minorities equality.

Naked children can't be depicted on film, magazines, internet, etc., so the latest hoo-haa just treats art exhibits the same as other parts of the community.

I've only half listened to the radio news on RTD, but wasn't the original push behind this along the lines of bringing alcopops into the same tax-rate as beer and wine ?

Nothing new, when a minority loses any previous advantage, they will cry discrimination.

[goughy]

I know I'm not happy with paying $70+ for a carton of JW and Dry cans. I spoke to the bottle shop manager at a store recently. He said so far the effect has been no increase as such in sales of bottle. But what has happened is instead of customers buying the 10 and 12 bottle/can packs people are just buying the one six pack.

[markTHEblake]

I asked a few guys at work and they said their kids had said the same thing. Kids are clueys - in this instance probably much more cluey than the Rudd Government!!

says a lot about the parenting rather than the governing.

[Coffs_Hacker]

Thanx Scotttt for confirming to me ur an utter wa***nker.

[Scottt]

Thanx Scotttt for confirming to me ur an utter wa***nker.

Tell me about Bill Henson's art? Tell me why it's so offensive?

Most of all, tell me why it's such an isue now, when Henson's work has hung in some of Australia's most esteemed galleries for years without comment?

[goughy]

I didn't know that they had! Had I known, I would have found that offensive and despicable. I would like to meet these parents who believe that nude pictures of their children is art.

But that's just my own opinion!

[ddasey]

The Henson 'thing' has really stirred the pot. Like most things everyone will have a different opinion.

Personally I don't call the pictures that were removed 'Art' or in fact anything near to 'art'.

The attachement is of another of Henson's work that I would call 'art'.

Being the parent to 3 young children I don't really understand how these photo's came about :-k

[Coffs_Hacker]

I am not calling all of his art Bad - but when u start taking photo's of naked children then its sick S**t. If he had been doing this before then he should of been jailed years ago. I can't believe so many people r for these pics. Q is r u getting off on it something??

[ddasey]

I am not calling all of his art Bad - but when u start taking photo's of naked children then its sick S**t.


:smt038

[Scottt]

I can't believe so many people r for these pics. Q is r u getting off on it something??

Many of the people criticising the hysetria surrounding Henson's work - myself included - aren't saying they love the stuff as art.

The issue is one of respect for art and also of censorship.

I personally don't really care for much of Bill Henson's work, especially not his nude stuff, but I respect him as an artist and value the role the arts plays in our society.

By the same token I don't appreciate the ballet and the opera, but I can value its contribution to Australian culture.

I don't believe the works qualify as pornography, but I understand that there is no concrete definition and that others will disagree, I just ask that they think about the issue and form a genuine opinion based on thought and a real understanding of the issue.

Disappointingly, I have discussed this with many people who have said they think he should be jailed, despite having not seen any of the 'offending' pictures. They've basically consumed a tabloid paper and watched ACA or TT and allowed the media to make their decision for them.

The reality is that this is exactly what art is supposed to do - provoke conversation.

The other fact is that censorship is largely a very dangerous and scary thing.

Rudd has already struck by moving that press releases from all Federal Government departments must go through the PM's office for approval. That is a massive blow, and surprisingly one that went largely unnoticed. It threatens the ability of the press to do its job and jeopardises the independence of the work done and information gathered by dozens of government organisations.

If you begin getting heavy handed with censorship you move towards the world in Orwell's 1984, scary in its increasing relevance.

Rudd can kiss goodbye the goodwill he bought from the arts community with his cynical little 2020 summit. Great work Krudd.

I saw in the papers today his doctors advised that he take it easy and do less. I'm inclined to agree.

[markTHEblake]

I just read about the plight of an endangered species of Arabian camel flea. It's an absolute disgrace that nobody cares.

[Dotty]

I just read about the plight of an endangered species of Arabian camel flea. It's an absolute disgrace that nobody cares.
You should take some naked photos of it, and hang them in an inner-Sydney art gallery.

[3oneday]

Pics ?

[just]

I've read what I consider to be pretty disturbing stuff on this thread. My wife and I have taken pics of our kids nude, for example when one of my girls took off all her clothes and decided that running around in the rain was fun, apparently by the standards of this thread, that makes my wife and I sick shits.
My opinion is that if you find stuff like this porn, then I think thats a sad reflection of your own minds, not of the guy whose producing it or the kids and parents who participate. It's attitudes like this that want to see "kiddly fiddlers" around every corner, that have ensured the rates of men in teaching declined to low levels, congratulations!
This woman takes pics of kids in the nude, http://www.annegeddes.com/default.aspx , disgraceful stuff, and I reckon they should lock her and everyone, the sick shits, whose bought some of her stuff in jail. (this last bit is sarcasm if you can't tell).

[markTHEblake]

I see what you mean, nudey babies are cute. i have a great video of my daughter playing with a garden hose in the nuddy, when she is about 2, itś so funny.

but I aint selling the DVD....

now she is 13, i cant get anywhere near her unless she has 14 layers of clothing on :-)

[goughy]

I've read what I consider to be pretty disturbing stuff on this thread. My wife and I have taken pics of our kids nude, for example when one of my girls took off all her clothes and decided that running around in the rain was fun, apparently by the standards of this thread, that makes my wife and I sick shits.


I think you need to look at the bigger picture though, and not take what everyone says so literally. My wife has scrapbooked pictures of our kids in the buff. But it's just not that simple.

Firstly, were your kids 13 years old when you did this? Or 10? And where do you display these pics? Are they in a box in the cupboard or a folder on your computer. Are they on the walls of your house. Or are they in an art gallery? And again, are they full frontal nude pics of teenage children.

Yes, we may have all commented in a generic way. But you also have to give us the credit that there are 'exceptions' to the circumstances. And remember, the topic mentioned within this thread is not baby pics, but an artist who has taken nude portraits of young teenage children, including full frontal. Not ma and pa giving the toddlers a bath and the kids did something cute you caught on camera. Heck, not even posed nude shots where nothing is in fact visible.

[just]

I realise the differences Goughy, but I still find the responses disturbing. I still think, and remember its my opinion, that the differentiation is more a reflection of sad state of affairs where everyone wants to see a peadophile behind every corner.
And by the way I have two girls (they are only young) but if I was approached when they are teenagers to engage in a project like Hensons I would consider it. My wife and I would also talk to my daughters and consider their attitudes and maturity before making a decision. But at least I would consider it.
And just remember, not only have negative judgements been expressed about the artist and the parents of the kids, these same judgements by reflection debase the kids whose portraits where taken. They thought (and still do as adults on all the accounts I have seen) that they were participating in something artistic and beautiful, yet without knowing too much about it, many on here have dismissed what they participated in as kiddie porn. I know what I consider more disgraceful.

[Scottt]

I've read what I consider to be pretty disturbing stuff on this thread. My wife and I have taken pics of our kids nude, for example when one of my girls took off all her clothes and decided that running around in the rain was fun, apparently by the standards of this thread, that makes my wife and I sick shits.
My opinion is that if you find stuff like this porn, then I think thats a sad reflection of your own minds, not of the guy whose producing it or the kids and parents who participate. It's attitudes like this that want to see "kiddly fiddlers" around every corner, that have ensured the rates of men in teaching declined to low levels, congratulations!
This woman takes pics of kids in the nude, http://www.annegeddes.com/default.aspx , disgraceful stuff, and I reckon they should lock her and everyone, the sick shits, whose bought some of her stuff in jail. (this last bit is sarcasm if you can't tell).


:smt038:smt038 amazingly well put.

[Scottt]

I think you need to look at the bigger picture though, and not take what everyone says so literally. My wife has scrapbooked pictures of our kids in the buff. But it's just not that simple.

Firstly, were your kids 13 years old when you did this? Or 10? And where do you display these pics? Are they in a box in the cupboard or a folder on your computer. Are they on the walls of your house. Or are they in an art gallery? And again, are they full frontal nude pics of teenage children.

Yes, we may have all commented in a generic way. But you also have to give us the credit that there are 'exceptions' to the circumstances. And remember, the topic mentioned within this thread is not baby pics, but an artist who has taken nude portraits of young teenage children, including full frontal. Not ma and pa giving the toddlers a bath and the kids did something cute you caught on camera. Heck, not even posed nude shots where nothing is in fact visible.

It's worth considering that a large majority of sexual crimes against children are committed by relatives. What makes it morew suitable for a blood relative to take a nude photo of a minor than a professional artist?

Of course the counter argument is that you're not displaying yours publicly, but you're still an adult looking at pictures of nude children.

[goughy]

And that's how differences of opinions work. We are allowed them. Someone with a camera better not come within cooee of my daughter until she's old enough to consent.

[Scottt]

I have a Russian friend who has only lived here for three years. It still amazes her that such spirited public debate occurs and no one goes missing!

[virge666]

It is all perspective guys . . . so I agree with all of you.

Some of us are parents and naturally protective. Some of us also enjoy photography. I have seen Bill's photo's and IMHO you would be hard pressed to call it pornography.

There is a mag out called "Black and White" - it has photos of naked people. There is also another mag called Penthouse with photos of naked people. Have a guess which one is erotic ?

As for the media beatup . . . from today's herald...



Have you also modelled for Bill Henson? Do you know anybody else who has modelled for him? Message 0424 SMS SMH (+61 424 767 764) or email us (scoop@smh.com.au) with information.


Yep . . . do you think it sounds desperate enough ?

[3oneday]

I can hear that tree sms'ing them now !!!

:lol:

I do think the police are struggling to make a case, and I am sure some hardened cops who take peoples computers away for "proper" kiddie porn are probably holding the same debate as here.

Is it porn ? from my humble upbringings my impression is that adult porn is provocative and lewd shots, ala thepornforum.

So I guess the arguments are simply based then on impressions of what porn is ? or is it that we are protecting our kids ? But what are we protecting them from, other peoples opinion of what is right or wrong or our own ?

If I allowed my daughter to have nude photos taken (I use "allowed", cause I'm still in charge :)) I would also have to consider what her two sets of Grandparents, her 3 Aunties and 2 Uncles thought of the situation as well. That's sometimes how life plays out, some care, some don't.