Virge's Swing.

[virge666]

Surely it shouldn't matter as it extends on the downswings and into impact. Isn't that a stylistic attribute.Some can keep the arm straight and others can't.

I attribute my slide into impact to this bent left arm... It has to straighten somewhere on the way down... the easiest way is to slide the left shoulder away from the grip.

just a guess though.


That's not the 1st hole at Bayview, is it?

Yep - our new practice tee.

[idgolfguy]

Doesn't coming down, with righ arm straightening push the left arm out and straight.

Does Bayview have reciprocal with the Vines here in Perth?

[Jono]

Doesn't coming down, with righ arm straightening push the left arm out and straight.

Yep, but it causes the club to cast as well.

The feeling I like is to push the butt end of the club away from me with my left hand and keep the right elbow bent and travelling towards the ball with right shoulder externally rotated. This causes good lag during the first half of the downswing.

[virge666]

Gents,

I got it.

Book me into tour school - I am dead set flushing it. I have no idea how I did it, but I played like shit until Punter got his tonne and then it all freed up. I have NEVER hit it this good. EVER. 6 under for the last 10 holes.

I have no idea how I get to the top of the backswing, no idea how to control the trajectory, and no idea how it clicked... but it is just bullet like and straight. Doesn't go longer or shorter, but just no effort.

Will get video tomorrow @ Narrabeen to put on display, if of course it is still with me tomorrow, if not, I will just lie and fake something.

Enjoy !

[Courty]

Will get video tomorrow @ Narrabeen to put on display, if of course it is still with me tomorrow, if not, I will just lie and fake something.

:lol:

[Jarro]

I need you to do a vid while your pissed, sitting on the edge of a pool table, explaining things about golf swings.

That's the only way i can comprehend what you say about swing mechanics :mrgreen:

[KristianJ]

Gents,

I got it.

Book me into tour school - I am dead set flushing it. I have no idea how I did it, but I played like shit until Punter got his tonne and then it all freed up. I have NEVER hit it this good. EVER. 6 under for the last 10 holes.

I have no idea how I get to the top of the backswing, no idea how to control the trajectory, and no idea how it clicked... but it is just bullet like and straight. Doesn't go longer or shorter, but just no effort.

Will get video tomorrow @ Narrabeen to put on display, if of course it is still with me tomorrow, if not, I will just lie and fake something.

Enjoy !

You're i Golf disguised as the mild mannered club fitter and swing advisor virge666??????

In all seriousness, well done. :) But did you get gazumped by a 20-something capper who shot the lights out better than you did?

[idgolfguy]

Well done. The bit about not knowing how it's happening will be the problem if it doesn't happen tomorrow.

Hopefully lightning does strike twice so that you can be prepared to catch it.

[PeteyD]

Awesomeness

http://www.pastapadre.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Kung_Fu_Panda.jpg

[KristianJ]

Will get video tomorrow @ Narrabeen to put on display, if of course it is still with me tomorrow, if not, I will just lie and fake something.


Shall I assume that you lost it based on this (http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/26869-Fairway-Wood-Frustration?p=743777&viewfull=1#post743777)? :lol:

[markTHEblake]

if of course it is still with me tomorrow

whenever I got it, it lasted two rounds tops - as long as it was the weekend. I still remember the flushingest weekend ever, I'd do anything to get that back.

[PeteyD]

sounds like your recent trip to SE Asia, all that flushing.

[markTHEblake]

I just saw a new golf video of your swing, seems it wasnt on this thread? awesome copycat by the way, can you do Peter Jacobson too (and copy everyone)?

[virge666]

I just saw a new golf video of your swing, seems it wasnt on this thread? awesome copycat by the way, can you do Peter Jacobson too (and copy everyone)?

It was 34 waggles that really did it.

A few of the OzGolfers were there and we did a little contructive manipulation.

[markTHEblake]

It was 34 waggles that really did it.

the first thing I noticed was the Golfer69 likeness. 90 seconds of swing video, 88 seconds of waggling.

[virge666]

the first thing I noticed was the Golfer69 likeness. 90 seconds of swing video, 88 seconds of waggling.

yep, even put an extra one in there for dramatic pause...

[TS]

Virge worked very hard to groove that swing, took him at least 10 minutes to stop the body rotation so it become more of arm swing only.

Virge probably won't break 80 for the next couple of weeks until he get his old swing back.

[virge666]

Just call me Mr Flushy Flusher from Flushville, Flushland, Postcode 0059

1st one is normal - 2nd is the Stinger.


http://youtu.be/0xPujshypbc

7-Iron Front on.


http://youtu.be/SFz4CASNAI8

3 Wood front on.


http://youtu.be/QoK-Q_pBkrE

[Jono]

I've never seen you getting into this position before in your practice waggle/swing. Is it something new you are doing? You seem to be getting bit more lag in the downswing too.

15102

[virge666]

I've never seen you getting into this position before in your practice waggle/swing. Is it something new you are doing? You seem to be getting bit more lag in the downswing too.



Just a by product of the new downswing and how I use the left wrist more. All that Supernation stuff in Hogans 5 lessons.

Im heading to the gym for the next couple of weeks to do nothing but Core and back training... I need to find a away to rotate the hips without the slide... the slide is better, but it is still a leg drive and that is not good enough in the accuracy front.

In simple terms... I really dont have any control of the extra power i am creating - so it is not hitting the golf course.

[Zeusgolf]

Virge i saw this guy playing on Euro Tour last week....I got to ask what do you think of his swing....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLZsbZusOM

[virge666]

Virge i saw this guy playing on Euro Tour last week....I got to ask what do you think of his swing....

"] ("http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLZsbZusOM[/video)

Make me think I would like to be 4 inches taller and 15kg heavier.

Looks fine - looks a bit "leggy" on the downswing and the pivot isn't working that hard, what does it look like from in front ?

I would be sending him to those bio kinetic guys, his lower half could be better.

[Zeusgolf]

Thanks for your thoughts...his swing looks way more balanced now.....which made me think of RSS.

He was flushing it all week and damn long....big leavers....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIz0nNq0SWs

[Puji]

fk me.

his swing looks brilliant. shows how much i know.

[virge666]

fk me.

his swing looks brilliant. shows how much i know.

It is pretty easy to see problems in a swing when the guy is off 20 mate.

As the golfers get better, it becomes a preference thing also more biomechanical tuning. Watch his right foot and right knee through impact, it is not stable - it is sort of lost and following. When you are at that level - your connection with the ground is very important. Some people will call it ballance, some will call it kinetic chain and some will call it rhythm.

it is all the same shit, with differing degrees of technicality.

[dan]

Practicing in bare feet.... is that actually beneficial or just a golfing myth?

[virge666]

Practicing in bare feet.... is that actually beneficial or just a golfing myth?

No idea mate . . . whatever works i guess.

It is probably why he is not using his legs as good as he could . . .

I would not recommend it for an advanced golfer as the lower half is where teh power is, I want to use teh ground to get the pivot working. . . but he could be working on balance or his lower half action.

It is only the one swing we have seen.

[Jono]

The other thing I don't like is practising whilst standing on balance boards, wobble discs etc.

Good balance during the golf swing is a by-product of good sound technique, not because of golfer's innate sense of balance or because he practised balancing on one foot, etc.

I'd been having problems with balance through impact lately and after a simple tip from Virge yesterday, my balance was better instantly. My snap hooks went away too.

[Golfnut]

I'd been having problems with balance through impact lately and after a simple tip from Virge yesterday, my balance was better instantly. My snap hooks went away too.

Which is.....?

[Jono]

I was leaning too far back (ie away from the target)

[virge666]

I was having a think today... I played with Anthony Summers a few weeks ago and he is only a little bloke, but he hits the ball about the same distance as I do. It also makes a slightly different sound.

Well - Duh... He is a bit of a decent player.

But - he hits the ball the same distance as me, with less effort, less speed and he isn;t as strong as I am.

So the next few weeks, seeing as I am not going to make the Pennant team will be spent practicing at 80% and we shall see what happens.

The hard bit is to not get lazy and not turn... but anyway - lets see.

[virge666]

Also to add to this is my Equipment.

I have a superfast 2 in 10.5 and 15. The shafts were Reg so I changed them... but I butchered th replacement shafts. I had a fubiki in 73 stiff, but butchered the tip... so I am having a play.

Superfast v2 15 degree with a 70gr REAX shaft in stiff, Tipped 1 inch and playing 42 inches... Swingweight C9
Superfast v2 10.5 with a 50gr REAX shaft in Stiff, tipped 1.25 inches and playing 44.5... Swing weight C9

Feels very light, but we shall see where the ball ends up today.

This should not work - but, necessity is the mother of invention.

[virge666]

If it ever stops raining... I play play golf again.

FFS

[xe1]

Tomorrow in between squalls ;-)

[KristianJ]

Talk about bloody squalls. Every time I take my clubs to work to get 9 holes in afterwards, it starts to get darker and have a bit of a piss down right around 4pm. :(

[virge666]

Well,

I am finished. It has taken the best part of 4 months and endless tantrums, but this is the end result. A shorter, more compact swing and better use of the lower half.

I still move a little off the ball on the takeaway and will work on some flexability for the backswing... but I am pretty happy with it. The major slide and low right arse is gone. The arms stay straighter and I am much better through the ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwAVKZFL5ro&feature=youtube_gdata

[Iain]

Looks very compact virge.

[Progolfgear]

Well,

I am finished. It has taken the best part of 4 months and endless tantrums, but this is the end result. A shorter, more compact swing and better use of the lower half.

I still move a little off the ball on the takeaway and will work on some flexability for the backswing... but I am pretty happy with it. The major slide and low right arse is gone. The arms stay straighter and I am much better through the ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwAVKZFL5ro&feature=youtube_gdata

I would be working on a few things from where that is;

1- Tempo/Rhythm - You would find it a heck of a lot easier to stop that swaying away from the ball you get in the first part of your takeaway with a bit slower (more deliberate) takeaway.
2- Club Face Rotation - At the moment, the club is quite closed through-out the takeaway, looks like in your case you need to hold off the release a little to square the club up at impact.
3- Width - There is nothing wrong with compact swings (I have quite a short swing), but you need to create decent width for a couple of reasons. Firstly, width creates speed which of course means distance, the other thing you will notice with a wider swing arc is a shallower angle of attack into the ball, should give you a lot cleaner strike with longer clubs.
4- Shoulder Turn - At the moment, the first part of the takeaway is dominated by the hands, the shoulders don't seem to make as bigger turn as they should which will ultimately be limiting your potential club head speed.

My 2c.

[Yossarian]

Sweet buns virge.

[qbnchopper]

I'd start with pressure points and a reverse k :-)

[Jarro]

nice hat :p

[virge666]

Sweet buns virge.

yeah - i heard about you !


I'd start with pressure points and a reverse k :-)

I LOL'ed


nice hat :p

Yep - I am now rocking the bucket hat. Not sure if i am sold yet... they are a lot warmer then a normal hat . . .

[live4golf]

Yep - I am now rocking the bucket hat. Not sure if i am sold yet... they are a lot warmer then a normal hat . . .

You'd look like a roofing nail.

[virge666]

I would be working on a few things from where that is;

1- Tempo/Rhythm - You would find it a heck of a lot easier to stop that swaying away from the ball you get in the first part of your takeaway with a bit slower (more deliberate) takeaway.
2- Club Face Rotation - At the moment, the club is quite closed through-out the takeaway, looks like in your case you need to hold off the release a little to square the club up at impact.
3- Width - There is nothing wrong with compact swings (I have quite a short swing), but you need to create decent width for a couple of reasons. Firstly, width creates speed which of course means distance, the other thing you will notice with a wider swing arc is a shallower angle of attack into the ball, should give you a lot cleaner strike with longer clubs.
4- Shoulder Turn - At the moment, the first part of the takeaway is dominated by the hands, the shoulders don't seem to make as bigger turn as they should which will ultimately be limiting your potential club head speed.

My 2c.

Many thanks for taking the time.

1. I have played at that speed for my entire golf life. Not going to slow it down unless i can find a real reason to.
2. Exactly what i want. I dont rotate it open on the backswing anymore. Have a look at the top of the swing. It isn't pointing at the sky.
16121
3 & 4. Yep - that is the next thing to work on ... I had back surgery a couple of years back with some rather serious complications. Gym work should help that out.

I want steep, I am still very shallow at the bottom... If I can get a bit more steeper, I find it easier to move the ball left and right with some control. As for width. You can only be as wide as your left arm. Left arm is straight, that is as wide as you can be unless I shift my weight to the right side... and that AINT going to happen any more than it is now.

I am modelling myself on Sean Foley's stuff, so that may explain the differences in models.

I should do a comparison for a laugh. . . even my old "good" swings are no where near as good as it looks now.

Enjoy

[virge666]

You'd look like a roofing nail.

A roofing nail with awesome buns.

[edhannan]

Looking good, Virge.

At address, you look to be off the wall with your lower body...not as much tuck in the right side as in earlier swings. Is that intentional? If so, why the change?

Also, if you would, please comment about your practice downswings in your January 2012 swing vids.

Thank you.

[wazandnic]

nice hat :p

The similarities are uncanny...

[virge666]

Thanks Waz . . .

...

I will get back to you Ed.

[Jarro]

Virge, correct me if i'm wrong ..... but have you got a bit of a chickenwing thing happening there with the right arm ?

[virge666]

Virge, correct me if i'm wrong ..... but have you got a bit of a chickenwing thing happening there with the right arm ?

Yes and No.

I dont have much shoulder turn - so the right elbow is always going to fly... But Nicklaus and Couples did ok with it . . . so not really THAT important.

Secondly - Chicken is usually defined by the left arm on the follow through - usually caused by a dodgey lower body action - ie... STOPPING.

If the hips dont move through impact the momentum of the clubhead creates the Chook Arms.

[KristianJ]

1. I have played at that speed for my entire golf life. Not going to slow it down unless i can find a real reason to.


Maybe it's just me, but the "flushed" swings from January look like a slightly slower takeaway. Or it could be that you're taking it further toward the horizontal in those ones, hence creating the illusion.

[David Williams]

G'day Virge... Looking pretty good mate...

Serious question here... You've been working on your swing and changes for a while now... What do you intend doing with it? Keep changing it? Forever work on it?

Just interested to know where all this is leading :)

I do know one thing... you've probably taught a lot of people about the swing by showing the progress and talking about it along the way... kudos for putting it out there.

Hope your well

WILLOW

[virge666]

Maybe it's just me, but the "flushed" swings from January look like a slightly slower takeaway. Or it could be that you're taking it further toward the horizontal in those ones, hence creating the illusion.

Could be right mate... but to be honest, I couldn't give a shit about tempo. Rhythm and sequence I do look for, but what speed you execute is such a personal thing.

The way I am hitting the ball - the "push back" or sway from the first move on the takeaway comes from a little forward press just before taking the club away and it doesn't move me off the ball too much... so, again - not really an imperative thing to fix as I cant see how that woudl effect impact.

I dont look at each section and try and fix each section to what a text book says it should loook like. Morons who do this, spend half their life fixing the cosmetic stuff and not what effects impact. When i look at mine or any swing, I just look at impact, or the 2 or 3 frames before and after. I go backwards and forwards about 15 times to see how I use the ground, how stable and balanced my swing is and most of all see if everything is going in the right direction.

If I see a fault, I try and work out what I need to change earlier on in the swing to fix that fault. My fault with the low right arse and hang back flip through has been sorted by switching to a different method of taking the club away and using my body differently. It doesn't look THAT different, but my brain has different thoughts on the downswing and follow-through and that seems to get the job done.

My low lefter snap hook shot has been improved to a high left shot with way less hook... I still block the ball when I slide, but it is a lot less often.

The flushed swings look angrier though... :)

[Webster]

My low lefter snap hook shot has been improved to a high left shot with way less hook... I still block the ball when I slide, but it is a lot less often.


Swinging straighter should fix that problem Virge.

[virge666]

Serious question here... You've been working on your swing and changes for a while now... What do you intend doing with it? Keep changing it? Forever work on it?

Just interested to know where all this is leading :)

Dave,

Before the spinal staph infection , I played for 2 years and shot over 80 I think twice, maybe three times. I played golf 3 times a month and usually shot 2-6 over every weekend. Back them I had the ability to fix my swing on the course and chip and putt my way out of trouble.

I lost it after the few months in hospital, and not till recently, have I had the ability to know this newish incarnation of my own swing and hit the ball how I use to. I cannot tell you how sick I was of missing greens with a bloody 9 iron and having no idea why... actually, I knew technically what I was doing wrong - but couldn't fix it and couldn't feel it. I went from hitting it straightish with small shapes in either direction to missing greens by 30m with an 8 iron. Or hooking a wedge 20m left into water from 90m. The other thing that shits me is that our Pennant team is pretty good, but I should be able to play with them in the middle somewhere, not be the groupie hoping to get a game at reserve.

I know consider my full swing done and dusted... I can hit my 7 iron 145 with that compact swing and I can driver 260 with that swing.

Next step is the wedges. 120m in. Take the feelings from the fullswing and mold them into 3 swings for each club up to 9 iron.

My shortgame is always pretty good, my putting from short range is deadly, but my lag putting is ****ing atrocious. I have not quite worked out a way to lag putt without a lot of practice. I just dont have the time to hit the putting green. So any advice from anyone on a system for distance putting with very little practice is truly welcome.

I would love to bullshit myself and say scratch by the end of the year, but not playing 3 times a week and an hours practice at the range on Thursday each week, but that aint going to happen. 2 would be good, especially around our goat track.

Thanks for taking the time mate - hope you and the family are well.

[virge666]

Swinging straighter should fix that problem Virge.

:horse:

[Webster]

Virge, look at the way that little yellow guy is flogging that dead horse - he aims straight, swings straight and makes perfect contact every time. Exactly what I'm talking about.

[dan]

The golf swing is round, not straight.

[Jono]

Virge, re: lag putting, try putting to different distances whilst looking at the target, rather than your ball.

[Webster]

Or just hit the first putt closer.

[David Williams]

Sorry to hear about all your issues...

This quote baffles me...

Dave,
but my lag putting is ****ing atrocious. I have not quite worked out a way to lag putt without a lot of practice. I just dont have the time to hit the putting green. So any advice from anyone on a system for distance putting with very little practice is truly welcome.

WTF is lag putting? Sounds negative to me... Could thinking of trying to hole a putt every time be out of the question? Surely being more positive towards your putting and focusing on the hole and trying to roll your ball in will go along way to solve the issue.

You also asked for a system to improve your distance control without practicing... Virge I believe every golfer, especially one as talented as you, has an inbuilt "this is how hard I should do it" mechanism. I think if you focus more on being positive and getting out of your own way, you might just find that feel for distance control your searching for.

So a system might be to ensure you have a sound pre-shot routine where there is more positive reinforcement about the putt and less thinking. The old guys at the club who seem to hole a lot of long putts don't practice and have terrible techniques but I'm sure they have this putting caper sussed. There's the hole... line up and try and hole it.

[timah!]

The old guys at the club who seem to hole a lot of long putts don't practice and have terrible techniques but I'm sure they have this putting caper sussed. There's the hole... line up and try and hole it.

I was chatting to Popper about putting the other day. He was saying he and the trainee were beaten by 5 kids in the group clinic he was at. My response ' Kids don't think about it, they just look at the hole, line up to where they think it is and hit it how hard they think they need.' Kids don't think about the consequences, and I think it's the same when you just go out to hit balls on course - you grab your putter, and just hit it at the hole 'not really worrying' about it. Usually, the putts are hit pretty well...

[David Williams]

Exactly Timah... I'm currently working with a good player who has been putting poorly. He was worrying about technique and his alignment. He was analyzing and over thinking everything and therefore becoming more concerned with the outcome. He was 3 putting quite often due to not getting the pace right.

He is now working on purely focus drills and clearing the chatter in his head before and during the putt. Not surprisingly he only had 1 three putt last time he went out... that was on the last when he was 3 under and trying to save par. Started thinking again and rolled the first putt 6 feet past.

[jacksparrow]

The golf swing is round, not straight.

I agree.....

[KristianJ]

Virge, any other useful places where you found Foley's stuff besides Youtube and Golf Digest?

[virge666]

I was chatting to Popper about putting the other day. He was saying he and the trainee were beaten by 5 kids in the group clinic he was at. My response ' Kids don't think about it, they just look at the hole, line up to where they think it is and hit it how hard they think they need.' Kids don't think about the consequences, and I think it's the same when you just go out to hit balls on course - you grab your putter, and just hit it at the hole 'not really worrying' about it. Usually, the putts are hit pretty well...


WTF is lag putting? Sounds negative to me... Could thinking of trying to hole a putt every time be out of the question? Surely being more positive towards your putting and focusing on the hole and trying to roll your ball in will go along way to solve the issue.




A few points on this.

i) I work with a lot of juniors, and most of them putt like shit. They have little distance control and are way too short. This quote is usually from a old bloke who cant putt for shit watching a young bloke who can play pretty well and has spent time on the practice green developing touch and feel whilst their parents are inside having a beer. Kids also do a lot of putting comps which also refines touch. They earn the skills, they just don't magically have it because they dont care if they miss.

ii) You will also see the stupid demo of "throwing keys" and AMAZINGLY be the right distance. Also a crock of shit, as you aren't bent over at the waist and side on when throwing the keys or ball or whatever. It is a quote by "mental coaches" to free up the brain from guessing and letting the internal "practiced feel" though. Rotella is the king of this and it only works if you know how hard to hit it in the first place.

Lastly, I am not a 15 marker trying to get my putting stats down from 38 putts a round. i am a player who average 31 putts a round and trying to get it down to sub 30. if I practice putting for a couple of weeks, then I will surely develop some feel, but I just dont have the time. So I am looking to a way to replace hard work, with some kind of system.

Let me give you an example.

You can spend 3 months on your short game developing feel with your 3 wedges. Learning how hard to hit the ball with each wedge and where it bounces and releases. Or you can learn Paul Runyan's rule of 12. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig)

You can learn how far your pitching goes, or you can learn Dave Pelz clock method or Sean Foley number method.

You have to have a method, and that can either be a system or can be in-grained with practice. When you cannot practice, you need a system that you can go through to execute, otherwise you have no idea how hard to hit the ball.

In each instance - you are replacing that practiced instict with a system or method, and where it gets really good is when they mold into one and the method or system becomes "owned" by you. Then you can bring Rotella's stuff and let it all flow . . .

So . . I am looking for the system for Lag putting that I can then own and refine, I simply dont believe in the "internal look and hit" method, which even if it was true isn't going to work as i have no faith in it.

As for the positive reinforcement and not worry about the consequences... I just dont care for it. I am a pretty laid back bloke and it is just a game. The only thing I pissed off at is standing over a putt not knowing how far to take the putterhead back, and how hard to hit it when I am 20 plus feet away. As for holing it, or thinking of holing it - whatever, if it goes in from 30 feet, YAY !!, but there is more of a chance of holing it if it gets to the hole with some decent speed on it, instead of being too fast or never making it.

anyway - rant over.... thanks for getting this far.

:)

I am going to try this for a month or so and see if it works in my head. i use to use 2 inches of backswing for every pace of putt. but drifted away from it when I could practice a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWHdESwOmz0

It will start off very mechanical - but I should be able to refine it to make it more natural. Feel through Mechanics - or that is what I have been told by some yellow book . . .

Enjoy.

[virge666]

Virge, any other useful places where you found Foley's stuff besides Youtube and Golf Digest?

His DVD ?

it is pretty scarce though. And the DVD isn't that good... really. It is good if you already watch plummer Stack and Tilt DVD set though.

[razaar]

virge

I haven't posted in a while but I had to smile when I read your post, especially the part about no time to practice but there has to be a system to get you sub 30 putts per round. Here's a tip - extend your research and learn everything you can about putting. In my experience, most of the really good info is not on the net. On the topic of distance control, perhaps you should look at how you achieve this in chipping (the power source, the timimg and order of movements). Putting should be the same, only more delicate.

There is a saying about short-cuts - "the only real short-cuts are more and more know how." Researching is fun. Particularly when stumbling on something that rings all your bells. Good luck.

[Yossarian]

I am a pretty laid back bloke and it is just a game.
... rant thanks for getting this far..

...:razz:

[KristianJ]

His DVD ?

it is pretty scarce though. And the DVD isn't that good... really. It is good if you already watch plummer Stack and Tilt DVD set though.

I'll check out the torrent sites then...

BTW, will you be anywhere but on course this Sat morning? I bought something on eBay that I need to go and pick up at Collaroy and I have a shaft and a 906F2 head that need unioning.

[virge666]

KJ

What time you thinking ??

[KristianJ]

10ish, I think. Got some stuff to do in Penrith at midday.

[virge666]

10ish, I think. Got some stuff to do in Penrith at midday.

I will be home mate. Hit me on the phone

[markTHEblake]

Or you can learn Paul Runyan's rule of 12. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig)

I will admit, I almost gave up watching this after 4 mins, but worth watching in the end. Thanks.
though my issue is, I reckon I'll chip once a month using this method, unless I play another course. Nobby little raised greens, only one shot required :-)

[virge666]

I will admit, I almost gave up watching this after 4 mins, but worth watching in the end. Thanks.
though my issue is, I reckon I'll chip once a month using this method, unless I play another course. Nobby little raised greens, only one shot required :-)

Raised greens . . . hasn't that idea been over done !

Brookwater exclusively has them !!! :) :)

I have used that method for near on 15 years... got the original idea from one of Faldo's video tapes. Then found the Runyan book years later. Willow and I then refined it with a further lesson in the USA. Perfect example of a mechanical and technical motion you can make your own and natural very quickly.

You can also play the same shot with an 45 degree open clubface for raised greens !!

[markTHEblake]

I often wondered why when I play at the Colonial I have an awesome up and down ratio. Finally figured it out, massive green complexes with very wide fringes. It seems Impossible to miss a green wide enough to have a difficult chip. I think it's the only course where I get to play chip and run shots.

[virge666]

Righto,

Changed it again with thanks for ProGolf gear. Stupid rabbit ears. more width and turn on the backswing.

New video up later today.

[virge666]

Yeah - that didn't work.

Back to my Edwin stuff - My brain got too excited and listened to too many people, and my game turned to shit.

Rocking the right sided swing again.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tHUvxojyRM&feature=youtu.be

[dan]

You sort of swat at the ball rather than swing through. Were you trying to hit knock down shots?

[Jarro]

Welcome back Virge ;)

[virge666]

You sort of swat at the ball rather than swing through. Were you trying to hit knock down shots?

Nah - there were a couple of hold off cuts there... but it was 8 iron and it was going about 135-140m which is about what I want. I can swing harder... but I have a 7 iron if i want it to go further.

It is the Edwin swing... the body release doesn;t have that extension I think you are looking for.

I do need to get more lag on the downswing though... it is not loading enough which why the follow though is a bit short, not enough mometum

Things to do on Thursday...

:)

[virge666]

You sort of swat at the ball rather than swing through. Were you trying to hit knock down shots?

After more investigation, your right dude - the lag is shit..

bugger... I am just chucking it away.

[live4golf]

you look very cramped on the top of your backswing mate, your hands don't seem to have anywhere to go...sort of makes it hard to drop your hands to start your swing. Is this all part of what you are trying? - could you get your hands a bit higher at the top of your backswing? Makes it look like your left arm is bending at the elbow too.

[dan]

live4golf sorta hints at the issue too with the crampness and bent elbow.... though i don't think your elbow is bent, it's just i'd like to see more width and extension in the backswing. But i'm not familiar with Edwin theory so I could be way off the mark. Pampling seems to get good extension (from memory). Anyway, if it's repeatable and you're happy with flight, distance and accuracy then that's what matters.

[virge666]

you look very cramped on the top of your backswing mate, your hands don't seem to have anywhere to go...sort of makes it hard to drop your hands to start your swing. Is this all part of what you are trying? - could you get your hands a bit higher at the top of your backswing? Makes it look like your left arm is bending at the elbow too.


live4golf sorta hints at the issue too with the crampness and bent elbow.... though i don't think your elbow is bent, it's just i'd like to see more width and extension in the backswing. But i'm not familiar with Edwin theory so I could be way off the mark. Pampling seems to get good extension (from memory). Anyway, if it's repeatable and you're happy with flight, distance and accuracy then that's what matters.

I am too far inside on the backswing.

Check the view from down the line... to much accross my chest. Which means too much body to release the clubhead.

Cheers boys.

[Yossarian]

You need to work more on your short game.

[virge666]

You need to work more on your short game.

I was waiting . . .

:)

[razaar]

Virge
I have never understood the swing concept "right sided swing". Faldo uses these words in his instruction books. TGM, from comments made by OLd Loren on issek (I can call him old because he has a few years on me) is an advocate of the right hand/arm controlling the swing. My difficulty with this description is that in all efficient and repeatable swings the downswing starts with a speed move shifting weight over to the lead leg (even with stack & tilt) where rotation works its magic with an in-to-out to-in swing path through impact. The swing guru's agree that the centre of rotation for a righty is the left shoulder (because of the extended left arm) until the left arm folds after impact and the right arm stays extended making the right shoulder the centre of rotation. If the left shoulder is the centre of rotation then the left arm and hand need to be the controlling upper limb otherwise the opposite limb will overpower the left. This goes against the Laws of Rotation in the principle of Conservation of Angular Momentum.

I could understand "right sided swing" relating to the right arm and side being employed in extension of the right wrist during the backswing but I don't see that in your swing. Neither do I see your right leg exerting resistance during the backswing to make the speed move across to the left side where lag is created. (It may be there , I just can't see it. So I am guessing that your downswing starts with rotation of the trunk?) Lag being the extension of the right wrist (dorsal flexion).

I am not familar with Edwin's stuff, maybe you can explain what you are trying to do.

[virge666]

Ray,

Wish I could. Don't think right sided - think strong left sided.

The right side drives around the left... the left side doesn't pull the right side through. It drives with the club loaded and to avoid it getting steep we almost cast it, but we cast it with a bent right wrist.

See - told you . . .

You at the champs this year ?

[razaar]

Anthony
This vid analysis of Web Simpson's swing is the closest to explaining the sorts of things you might consider introducing into your swing. Where Simpson has a rigid left arm, it may be that he has the elbow facing towards his body, where it should be anyway for an extended arm. Your comments about the right side is spot on but not the way you put it. The right side rotates around the left side which has cleared but the right side is not the force causing this. The force is the resistance of the left side which is working from left to right . This force works from the ball of the foot up to the hip but only when the centre of mass has been shifted across to just inside the left foot.

http://www.waynedefrancesco.com/1992/webb-simpson-golf-swing-analyzed/

I can't comment on Edwin's stuff, but by looking at the swings of his star pupils the proper foot work for resistance on both sides appears to be missing from their actions. Their swings seem to lack ground reaction forces which are a feature of all the top swings on tour.

[virge666]

We don't clear out left side - Because we dont move the left hip back from the setup position.
We also dont extend the right arm down the line as our right hip is moving past the left.
We also dont have a rigid left arm - just don't need to when we are not using width to generate power, we are using lag.
Our right shoulder is a lot lower too, we dont tilt as per stack and tilt.
Also a lot flatter on the downswing. Shaft is meant to be on teh right forearm, not just above.

and many many more . . .

we dont downcock or float-load the downswing.
we dont just slide the hips - we brace the entire upper body as well.
the takeaway is on the foot line - not outside.

shall i go on ?

[razaar]

Mate, I can't understand any of that. Is that what he teaches?

[virge666]

I can't comment on Edwin's stuff, but by looking at the swings of his star pupils the proper foot work for resistance on both sides appears to be missing from their actions. Their swings seem to lack ground reaction forces which are a feature of all the top swings on tour.

Look again and cover the player from the hips up... most of out power comes from ground reaction forces. We are pretty much jamming the club into an active lower half.

We did this comparison at a Srixon coaching summit in 2002 i think... and the edwin boys have way more lower body action that Scott, Davis Love Tiger and a few others.

It is all perception, you dont see the big move on the backswing or the big clearing of the hips on the downswing, so your brain just says the legs are static

Look again.

[razaar]

After looking at what you've added I am starting to understand what this swing is about. It is an upper body swing with the legs as a platform. The difference is this type of swing doesn't work from the ground up. Everything else is the same for those that use arm rotation . I only used Simpson's swing to show you how the legs work.

[virge666]

Mate, I can't understand any of that. Is that what he teaches?

Nope - that is just a comparison to Webb Simpson. Nick Watney has the same kind of swing as Webb IMHO.

We hit a golf ball the same way you throw a ball, or hit a tennis shot, or pass a rugby ball.

We start in something closer to an impact position
We dont move off the ball on the backswing, we just coil the shoulders.
We then just hold the angles and maintain that width through impact.
The angles we have created is what gives us power - and I just do it faster if I want to hit it further.

That is a very simplistic way of saying it... but that is why i like it, there is no timing, it is very economical and I can do it all day with pain or tiredness. It is also stupidly straight.

You have heard all the comments, you look cramped, looks like a punch shot, doesn't go anywhere... I aint short, I aint stupidly long either, but i have won the longest drive anytime Jono isn't at the champs.

:)

[razaar]

I think we were cross posting there, mate.:D.
Correct me if I am wrong here, Edwin teaches keeping the centre of mass just left of centre from setup until after impact. The legs are not engaged to shift weight (because it doesn't move) or assist in rotation on either side. The legs are braces for the work performed by the core and shoulders.

[popper81]

I have a few of the current vids for Edwin at the moment..... Happy to share with you Virge, although my understanding you have spent plenty of time with him before.. I have just started to get this right, 6 months hard work breaking bad habits. I have been seeing Don fardon at hope island, guy is brilliant!

It is a hard concept to explain, but when it is on, feels amazing.

[virge666]

I think we were cross posting there, mate.:D.
Correct me if I am wrong here, Edwin teaches keeping the centre of mass just left of centre from setup until after impact. The legs are not engaged to shift weight (because it doesn't move) or assist in rotation on either side. The legs are braces for the work performed by the core and shoulders.

No mate - not even close, that is what everyone thinks...

Centre of mass in centered.
Legs move to assist rotation
Legs work hard through the release.

[virge666]

After looking at what you've added I am starting to understand what this swing is about. It is an upper body swing with the legs as a platform. The difference is this type of swing doesn't work from the ground up. Everything else is the same for those that use arm rotation . I only used Simpson's swing to show you how the legs work.

Mate - you HAVE to use the ground. otherwise you have no kinetic chain and no real power behind the hit.

Throw a ball hard against a wall - do you use your hips and legs ????

How much ??

We use them about that much as well !

[razaar]

I am a bit confused about how the legs work in your action. Can you describe what they do?
Let me reword that. Throwing a ball is a front on action where the harder the throw the further the right hip moves back against a braced right foot and knee. The weight (centre of mass ) moves back against this brace. The throwing action starts with the the weight being transferred forward towards a resisting left foot/lower leg which firms up and braces as to ball leaves the hand. The golf swing is a side on rotating action.

[virge666]

I am a bit confused about how the legs work in your action. Can you describe what they do?
Let me reword that. Throwing a ball is a front on action where the harder the throw the further the right hip moves back against a braced right foot and knee. The weight (centre of mass ) moves back against this brace. The throwing action starts with the the weight being transferred forward towards a resisting left foot/lower leg which firms up and braces as to ball leaves the hand. The golf swing is a side on rotating action.

yep - but lets throw side on... as the right hip moves back the front knee bends forward.

And on the throw/release the right hip thrusts up and past at the left, it is not stationary - but it doesn't spin out of the way. This allows you to keep the right arm bent longer for a later release.

Boom - Right sided action

[razaar]

That doesn't make any sense because the left hip has to pull the left shoulder around if the legs are doing the work. At the top of the backswing the left hip is more towards the target than the left shoulder. It retains this relationship at impact because the hip is pulling the shoulder around, this is part of the kinetic link that your mate Zen keeps harping about.;)

[Courty]

This is fascinating stuff... seriously.

[razaar]

Courty
Normally I wouldn't post about this stuff because it can be confusing to the multitude of golfers. However, I feel a duty to Virge because of his passion for the game to help him sort through his thinking about the swing. It can be a mind twister when your body performs movements a certain way. The mind tends to reject anything else until you have a complete understanding that there is a more efficient/better way. That is the process I hope we are going through now.

[Shadesy]

The force is the resistance of the left side which is working from left to right .

This was fascinating to me, i didn't notice this until i read it and thought about it.

Insightful.

[Jono]

Virge, your swing looks pretty lazy in that video. Nothing to do with not enough extension/width or whatever. You always swung that way. However, your swing was more dynamic before.

[virge666]

Virge, your swing looks pretty lazy in that video. Nothing to do with not enough extension/width or whatever. You always swung that way. However, your swing was more dynamic before.

Bugger - i really like it. Still got the swing plane going left... but the ball flight is rather nice and the misses are only about 10-15m each way.

Oh well.

[Courty]

Courty
Normally I wouldn't post about this stuff because it can be confusing to the multitude of golfers. However, I feel a duty to Virge because of his passion for the game to help him sort through his thinking about the swing. It can be a mind twister when your body performs movements a certain way. The mind tends to reject anything else until you have a complete understanding that there is a more efficient/better way. That is the process I hope we are going through now.

No need to explain, Ray. I've held a longtime view that you & Virge are both 'masters' of swing mechanics, but have very different ways of expressing/ communicating that knowledge. The back & forth is fascinating.

[dan]

Virge, your swing looks pretty lazy in that video. Nothing to do with not enough extension/width or whatever. You always swung that way. However, your swing was more dynamic before.
His swing has always looked the same to me despite all the swing changes he goes through.

[Scifisicko]

Very interesting stuff re right side vs left side...humping the goat cant be helping.



1757417575

[Jono]

Bugger - i really like it. Still got the swing plane going left... but the ball flight is rather nice and the misses are only about 10-15m each way.

Oh well.

I like these swings better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=QoK-Q_pBkrE&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0xPujshypbc#!

I think your swing in these videos are more dynamic.

Let me illustrate one way I think it is more dynamic, have a look at these positions.

This is when the downswing has just started. First picture is your new swing and the second is your old one.


17583


17584


See the difference?

In your new swing, the right elbow stays flared out behind you and the shaft comes down steep. Your leg are less dynamic too. Really, what you are doing is just "dumping" the clubhead on the ball. I say "dump" instead of "throw" because throw is a much more dynamic movement.

Look at the picture of your old swing. See how it looks much more dynamic. Right elbow is getting into a "throwing" position. Or as Gerry Hogan likes to refer as "the slot". Flattens the club better and retains the lag better. Your legs and hips are much more dynamic here too. You spine is in better position as well.

I got the following pic from one of your practice moves in your old swing clip. When you first posted this video earlier in the year, I think I commented that I never saw you doing this move during your practice routine before. Look what you are doing with the right elbow here. Almost looks like Ben Hogan. You are externally rotating at the right shoulder joint and you are moving the right elbow in front of you rather than letting it get behind you which is what you are doing now.


17585


Here's down the line view of your practice routine at the time.

17586


I have drawn some lines to show where your current right elbow position and shaft position would be with your new swing. The red line represents the right arm, red circle is right elbow and the blue line is the shaft.

17588


What do you think, Virge?

[Jono]

Why do the pics I attached show up with attachment numbers rather than pictures?


Edit: I uploaded the pics again and it seems to have solved the problem.

[edhannan]

Virge...you'd know best whether fixes are in order and what those fixes are. The swings look good to me, but I think I'm seeing:
- a longish right arm at address
- some overhinging at the top; more noticeable down the line than front on
- in the downswing some right side lower body activity that is maybe too much or too early
- a low exit of the clubhead/shaft

I think Edwin touches on some of these issues in his recent vids.

[virge666]

Virge...you'd know best whether fixes are in order and what those fixes are. The swings look good to me, but I think I'm seeing:
- a longish right arm at address
- some overhinging at the top; more noticeable down the line than front on
- in the downswing some right side lower body activity that is maybe too much or too early
- a low exit of the clubhead/shaft

I think Edwin touches on some of these issues in his recent vids.

Nice pick Ed... I completely agree.

110% agree - off to the range tonight to fix 2 of the 4.

[qbnchopper]

Do you think we could bring up TGM and have an argument of the merits of TGM vs Edwin .... oh no that's right this isn't a TGM run site ....

Sorry continue on ...

[virge666]

Do you think we could bring up TGM and have an argument of the merits of TGM vs Edwin .... oh no that's right this isn't a TGM run site ....

Sorry continue on ...

yes - lets do that and then we can do the swinger s hitter, then 4 barrell power smashing and god know what other shit we can dream up.

[razaar]

:) virge
Everybody seems to have differing versions of a swingers action and that of a hitter. What is yours?

[virge666]

:) virge
Everybody seems to have differing versions of a swingers action and that of a hitter. What is yours?

Dont believe in it... I reckon all swings are a mixture of both. I think it is one of the most pointless arguements on the web.

[Toolish]

Dont believe in it... I reckon all swings are a mixture of both. I think it is one of the most pointless arguements on the web.

Yep, agreed. Some are stronger one way or the other but really not sure anyone is pure either.

I have found I am getting more hitter all the time as I play less...wonder if there is something in that?

[razaar]

About the only version of swinger vs hitter that made any sense to me is - a swinger lets the ball get in the way of the swing whereas the hitter makes the ball the object of the swing. Pretty much summed it up for me.

[qbnchopper]

yes - lets do that and then we can do the swinger s hitter, then 4 barrell power smashing and god know what other shit we can dream up.

:D:D:D

[Peter]

Dont believe in it... I reckon all swings are a mixture of both. I think it is one of the most pointless arguements on the web.Have you seen the religion thread?

[Jono]

Dont believe in it... I reckon all swings are a mixture of both. I think it is one of the most pointless arguements on the web.

Hey ... we agree on somthing. ;)

[TheNuclearOne]

About the only version of swinger vs hitter that made any sense to me is - a swinger lets the ball get in the way of the swing whereas the hitter makes the ball the object of the swing. Pretty much summed it up for me.

I got the basic idea from this one, tho i reckon you've definitely seen it Ray. The rope vs axe handle.

A swinger basically holds the club in his left hand and pulls the grip end of the club down towards the ball - as if he is pulling on a rope. This technique is called the rope handle technique.

A hitter usesan axe handle technique whereby the right hand applies a radial force to the clubshaft at the grip end of the club. When hitting, a golfer applies an active right arm-powered force as push-pressure to the back side of the grip end of the shaft via push-pressure applied at pressure point #1 and #3.

[virge666]

What do you think, Virge?

I like it, Just don't know how to get it to happen.

Hit some good shots last night - but I don't like the massive clearing of the hips. Getting that right arm a bit further away might help, it shoudl tuck the elbow in, but the ribs need to be in a different place for that to happen. Seriously - there comes a point where my brain just gets the whole analysis - paralysis thing. I only play twice a month and it is so hard to groove anything when you hardly play the game.



Enough sooking... back to the course.

[sol381]

do you honestly have all those swing thoughts in your head...im amazed you can even hit the ball.. as you say nothing like actually playing to fine tune your game.. as jono said the last vid you posted looks more dynamic.. i agree , it looks like you are really attacking the ball... all we see is the swing, but more importantly, how is the ball flight..swing looks really good to my untrained eyes anyway.

[virge666]

do you honestly have all those swing thoughts in your head...im amazed you can even hit the ball..

No - I don't when playing. i usually just shut my eyes and see where it goes. Then I adjust the aim for the next shot. By the 3rd hole it is usually under control.

The problem is that my 3 shots are usually gone by then . . .

[Toolish]

No - I don't when playing. i usually just shut my eyes and see where it goes. Then I adjust the aim for the next shot. By the 3rd hole it is usually under control.

The problem is that my 3 shots are usually gone by then . . .

Hearing you on that one for sure!

[razaar]

I got the basic idea from this one, tho i reckon you've definitely seen it Ray. The rope vs axe handle.

A swinger basically holds the club in his left hand and pulls the grip end of the club down towards the ball - as if he is pulling on a rope. This technique is called the rope handle technique.

A hitter usesan axe handle technique whereby the right hand applies a radial force to the clubshaft at the grip end of the club. When hitting, a golfer applies an active right arm-powered force as push-pressure to the back side of the grip end of the shaft via push-pressure applied at pressure point #1 and #3.




Isn't that aTGM definition? A swing can still have the right hand releasing as you described for a hit. A takeaway with pronation has this right arm release through impact. A swing starts in the feet and allows rotation of the legs, hips and shoulders to provide the acceleration. The arms and hands are passive, allowing the club to do the work. Swingers are very particular of the ball position and the setup at address because the ball is not that important to the swing. IMO swingers are more tuned into their footwork rather than having upper body thoughts. Hitters focus is above the hips. There are shots in a round of golf where a swinger has to think like a hitter. Hitting out of a divot or cupped lie is one example.

[virge666]

Gentlemen of the Hitter's vs Swinger's debate.

Please stop or take your discussion to ISG where I am sure they will shower you with riches.

It is a stupid and pointless ****ing arguement. Hinge Actions, Pressure points and Power Accumulators are much more worthy of your time.

Enjoy

[steeler]

After looking at your swing I would only offer two points to look at.

Bottom hand is too weak.
Right elbow is locked and sitting too high

Both these are causing you to swing a bit out and over.

Strengthen the bottom hand a tad, and bend your right elbow. This will drop your right shoulder and allow you to swing at the ball, instead of across it.

Action looks pretty solid.

[virge666]

Cheers steeler.

Agree completely

[steeler]

You have good flexibility and a nice turn.

I would kill for that kind of set on the backswing

[Jono]

Hey Virge, how is your swing going? Did you see any distance benefits from what we worked on at Port Kembla?

[virge666]

In a word, yes.

Honestly flushing it at present. Playing once every three weeks and worst round is 6 over.

I will post a video with the update as soon as I get some video.

[virge666]

6 Iron and 3 Wood.

Not happy with that backswing yet, but the right hip is going out towards the ball more instead of sliding closed towards the target.

The short irons are pure - the longer ones are a bit low - but they are not missing the greens by much at all on the bad ones. There is a much better flow to it than late last year and I am finding it easy to replicate.

Just have to work a bit more on that backswing - the right elbow is too close and is causing that across the line look and bent left arm. Right hand is still too weak and still restricts the right shoulder.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQ2bJD8WfM

[Webster]

Nice bit of bend in the left arm Virge, reminds me of someone I know.

Stand up a bit taller and keep the weight more on the right side behind the ball through impact and you'll get more height on the longer clubs.

It's a very good simple golf swing. Well done.

[razaar]

It is a good swing. If you wish to improve it Virge, my recommendation is to work on creating more resistance in both the backswing and forward swing. The right elbow appears to lack resistance in the backswing and the left shoulder should be higher (through impact) resisting the forward release of the right side. With the added resistance on both sides of the swing, the hips have something to pull. Looking at the vid your shoulders are returning through impact on a similar plane to what they were at address.

[matty]

Like it. I thought on the first swing you could compress a bit. Seemed at impact you were starting to come up out of it.

[live4golf]

looking sharp Virge. I sort of know what you're getting at with your backswing...but it is not terrible, it gets you in the right position to start your downswing.

The only advice I will give you is to buy more gear, that ALWAYS works. NO swing advice from me, until we get down the range together again :)

[popper81]

Virge,

Have you retired RSS again for the time being?

[virge666]

Virge,

Have you retired RSS again for the time being?

Nope.

But I avoided video for about 2 months to see if instead of me trying to make my swing look good, I found a swing that I hit the ball good and then recorded that. And mate - I am flushing it and I can hit it both directions... actually the draw is a little "too drawie" but it isn't awful.

Wedge goes just under 120, 6 iron just over 160 and the hybrids are doing their job too.

To be honest - I am scared to change anything as it is working, but the other side of my brain is screaming at me about the ugly bits.

[matty]

To be honest - I am scared to change anything as it is working, but the other side of my brain is screaming at me about the ugly bits.

Who gives a rats how the swing looks.

The ultimate judge of your swing is the flight of the ball. - Ben Hogan

[virge666]

Who gives a rats how the swing looks.


Because when it goes to shit, I know how to fix it.

I have added 4 new moves to the latest incarnation. The backswing is steeper, the downswing is shallower, the right hip is moving out way more and there is less of a bump forward on the downswing. I am also a little more closed than I was at setup, and I don't have as much weight over my left side.

When you are playing off 1 or 2, it is rather important to know you own swing IMHO. If I start fanning shots out right, or hooking it, I can fix it without using my hands on the downswing... I don't want to wake up in the middle of a comp having no idea where the ball is going.

The problem I have is that EVERYTHING works on the range, and only being able to play every couple of weeks makes it really hard to see what works and what doesn't on the course.

I need to get rid of this stupid job and family, marry a supermodel who can support my hobbies and spend some time on the course !

[Puji]

Nope.

But I avoided video for about 2 months to see if instead of me trying to make my swing look good, I found a swing that I hit the ball good and then recorded that. And mate - I am flushing it and I can hit it both directions... actually the draw is a little "too drawie" but it isn't awful.

Wedge goes just under 120, 6 iron just over 160 and the hybrids are doing their job too.

To be honest - I am scared to change anything as it is working, but the other side of my brain is screaming at me about the ugly bits.

I did this. Stopped with bloody video. And worked on one thing and one thing only (thanks Virge)

Since then, handicap has gone from 10.6 (anchored) back down to 6.3. Loving it. Absolutely pounding driver, irons are great also. Getting some great distances with irons. The iron I would normally hit to 130, I now hit to 155.

I would love to video it; as something has changed. But don't see the point.

Best thing about it; I'm leaving many shots out there due to short game. So I know I can go lower!

[TS]

Virge

Can you organise a group buy on supermodel, and a group sale on family.

[virge666]

I did this. Stopped with bloody video. And worked on one thing and one thing only (thanks Virge)


Yeah - I think that is what has to happen. Video in bin.

BTW: Well done mate - nice handicap plummet.

[virge666]

Virge

Can you organise a group buy on supermodel, and a group sale on family.

yes I can - might take a bit longer than the Nunn tablets though

[popper81]

Nope.

But I avoided video for about 2 months to see if instead of me trying to make my swing look good, I found a swing that I hit the ball good and then recorded that. And mate - I am flushing it and I can hit it both directions... actually the draw is a little "too drawie" but it isn't awful.

Wedge goes just under 120, 6 iron just over 160 and the hybrids are doing their job too.

To be honest - I am scared to change anything as it is working, but the other side of my brain is screaming at me about the ugly bits.


Makes sense. The above video must be hard to watch though. You maybe on to something.

[Yossarian]

Sweet buns.

[matty]

Because when it goes to shit, I know how to fix it.

Are you saying that because you know your swing so well you can see through video what you're doing wrong when it turns to shit or are you seeking a visually perfect swing?

[virge666]

Are you saying that because you know your swing so well you can see through video what you're doing wrong when it turns to shit or are you seeking a visually perfect swing?

The leg drive is the big problem, always has been. When my swing goes walkabout - the leg drive is the problem and the resulting flip - I have spent the last two years trying to lose the leg drive.

What I have found is that the leg drive disappears gradually at the range. after about an hour or so - the drive is gone and the right hip moves out. But when I get to the course... leg drive is back and I cant seem to get rid of it.

So it is not about making a picture perfect swing... but it is about getting certain positions correct. For me - it is the first couple of frames back and a couple of frames after impact. I sort of ignore the rest of the swing to some extent.

Right now - I like impact, I hate the takeaway.

But - I am flushing it playing once a fortnight to a handicap of 2 and doing it easy.

[matty]

What pros do you think have minimal or no leg drive? Someone the opposite to Bubba.

[virge666]

What pros do you think have minimal or no leg drive? Someone the opposite to Bubba.

Pretty much all golf pros don't leg drive the way I do it. Both knees go towards the target and my right butt cheek goes towards the ground. This results in my upper body weight going backwards, and the hands rotating too early closing the clubface and a hook to the left.

What should happen, from the backswing... the left hip goes forward, the right hip goes back. They should be level when they do this. Then on the downswing... just like Ben in your avatar, the right hip goes out towards the ball and the left hip goes back... STAYING LEVEL !!!

In my bad swing, I get the leg drive of both legs and the hips eventually rotate after moving about a foot the left.If you look up some OzGolf champ swings from Palm Meadows years ago - you will see that swing in all it's glory. I fkn hate that swing.

If I go to the range, after about 20 mins, I have all manner of compensations to make it go straight - then after an hour, the hips magically start working properly, and I start flushing it... 2 days later at the course, I am back to square one using my hands to make the ball go straight'ish.

I have changed the swing so that right hip moves out - a lot more than it use to stop the leg drive. I have given it something else to do so it doesn't slide left. And it seems to work. No idea why... but the ball flight is just awesome from ball one. I shot 3 over on gold medal day at Mona on Saturday without sinking any putts over 10 ft.

Feels weird - but as you say - I cannot argue with the results.

[matty]

I shot 3 over on gold medal day at Mona on Saturday without sinking any putts over 10 ft.

Nice. Imagine a round when they start rolling in! 3 under.

Admit it, you can taste it.

[razaar]

There you go Virge, your trouble in in your concept of level hips. Pull up a skeleton of the pelvic area. See how the femur fits into the socket of the pelvis. When we turn the pelvis against a braced right leg and a resisting left leg, the right hip has to lift and the left lower. The shift forward is the reverse. Both backwards and forwards the hips work on a lateral turn. If they stay level there are compensations performed elsewhere and will lack resistance on both sides of the swing.

[virge666]

Nice. Imagine a round when they start rolling in! 3 under.

Admit it, you can taste it.

I can so taste it... been a long time since I have hit it this well.

I can see scratch handicap, just there for the taking.

[virge666]

There you go Virge, your trouble in in your concept of level hips. Pull up a skeleton of the pelvic area. See how the femur fits into the socket of the pelvis. When we turn the pelvis against a braced right leg and a resisting left leg, the right hip has to lift and the left lower. The shift forward is the reverse. Both backwards and forwards the hips work on a lateral turn. If they stay level there are compensations performed elsewhere and will lack resistance on both sides of the swing.

With you Ray, can we just say a lot MORE LEVEL than they are in my earlier swings...

Just like the Edwin Schimmy drill.

[virge666]

A little better looking but same motion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYfalyYV44Y

[virge666]

A quick update lads.

About a month ago i went to the range a bit pissed as what looked good at the range looked shit on video... Tony Sun and Dotty were both there and they simply said it looked good on the Range... and that basically, i was being a dick because I was trying to change the video when the ball flight and everything looked good.

So I did... I threw the video equipment away and just grooved my swing on the range and went and played.

Yesterday for the first time in 3 years, or ever since the new handicap system came in, I won a comp. First round of the club champs, and I shot 2 under to lead by 4 on one of the hardest days at Mona I have ever played, the green stimping at 12-13 and almost all the pins were tucked. Problem is - Shitbox rally starts on Thursday - so no more rounds to play in the champs.

:) :)

As a byline . . . ever since I have ignored the camera equipment - this has been golf link. The green were cored in late may which is why that score sucked a bit.

38 points when I get back and we are off scratch !

24284

[Courty]

Nice one, Virge!

[timah!]

Senbloodysational!

[Webster]

Jeez its a been a great week for the Ozgolfers smashing through par. Well done Virge. Just think how much better you will be when I limit you to just the 10 clubs in the bag!

[mrbluu]

Good job mate, but did u get lost on the 19.04.13....Hahaha

[live4golf]

Good work Virge. Hopefully you'll be able to keep playing enough.

[Stuartd147]

Well done but I am not surprised after playing with you at Cabramatta recently. Your ball striking is solid for, what looks to me, to be a really simple effortless swing.....good luck with the rest of the rounds in the champs...stu

[Puji]

Great stuff.

I can't agree more re: forgetting about video. I'm nowhere near your level, but I dropped quite a few shots after I just started to concentrate on my ball flight and ball flight only.

Keep going Virge. Scratch a a plus h/c isn't far off.

[markTHEblake]

Virge, speaking about your leg action, do me a favour and try this, if only for some comic material.

On your downswing/impact attempt to drive your left knee to the right. In other words the opposite direction it should be going. Then tell me want happened.

[Dcanto]

Well done Virge.

[PeteyD]

Bumping for an update Virge ;)

[virge666]

One has to play golf in which to make an update.

My 20 games in golf link still include the four under at the champs in 2013.

[PeteyD]

Oh. Injury or other lifestyle choices?

[dee cee]

Lost the bug I reckon..,

[virge666]

Oh. Injury or other lifestyle choices?


Lost the bug I reckon..,

SOld the company so drowning in admin and new challenges.

playing tomorrow @ Elanora and may even have 2 games on the weekend as the family have left me.

could double in 3 days...

[PeteyD]

Ah yea I remember now.

[jocker]

Hi Virge

I was told on another thread that you had back surgery a while back. I am due to get a microdisc soon. I read back through your swing thread to see the issues you had post op.

Do you have any advice in terms of how quick to come back? Swing changes I might need to make (appreciate you can't see my swing now)?

Cheers,

[virge666]

Hi Virge

I was told on another thread that you had back surgery a while back. I am due to get a microdisc soon. I read back through your swing thread to see the issues you had post op.

Do you have any advice in terms of how quick to come back? Swing changes I might need to make (appreciate you can't see my swing now)?

Cheers,

Sorry mate - i missed this.

Took me 6 months and a shitload of training to get back to something like normal. about 12 months to no longer care about the back.

I do have to stretch a bit to loosen it up - but all in all - it only stops me playing every now and then and a trip to Physio puts me right again.

[virge666]

i am 5 weeks into a swing rebuild with the boys up at the Glades.

Happy to share the progress and frustrations if anyone is interested.

many ... many frustrations.

[Steve]

Are you refining a conventional swing or heading a new way, ie biomechanics or natural swing path.

[markTHEblake]

i am 5 weeks into a swing rebuild with the boys up at the Glades. The Glades on the Gold Coast? I thought we locked you lot out. Are you doing modern thing, aka George Gankas. All the kids are doing it now. Please share, interested.

[dee cee]

Yeah interested for sure. I have given up on a rebuild and just playing with what I’ve got. Sad but just can’t do what coaches tell me. 😔

I hope you stay strong and reap some rewards… 👍👍👍

[virge666]

The Glades on the Gold Coast? I thought we locked you lot out. Are you doing modern thing, aka George Gankas. All the kids are doing it now. Please share, interested.

The wonders of TEAMS, video and other technical wizardry...

For those that dont know .. I was a plus marker before my back injury and eventual quittingness in 2014'ish. I am a student of Gary Edwin's right sided swing - have been for ages and i dont plan on changing.

What i have found amazing is that i still have all the old swings back to 2008 and even a few old lessons from the early 2000's. I will post up what i have and what the last three battles have been - i did get an encouraging email from Luke today - so i am much happier. Funny enough - the same faults i had in 2005 - i have 15 years later just on a fatter, older frame.

:)

[PeteyD]

Looking forward to seeing this!

[Stuartd147]

Nice to hear your injuries may be behind you!!! Look forward to watching the progress...

[virge666]

OK then so first lesson...

https://youtu.be/pxmxUXg8ubQ

Gary looked at and politely said it wasn't complete shit - but that i had to fix the first move and setup by strengthening that right hand back under the shaft and not on top. (phrasing?)

My thoughts were that i should do this to get rid of the across the line look at the top.

[virge666]

Lesson 2 - a few days later

https://youtu.be/WAsJQTx08-s

i thought it looked better - he begged to differ. Right hand too weak and body shape was not good. - Fix the right hand and first 2 feet of the takeaway.

I have to add here that i had been absolutely flushing it. Like squishy goodness of flushness. i was so happy to send this in to be shot down almost immediately.

I had taken to the end of the day by pitching at one of the palm trees from 40m. Sent 30 balls towards it and hit the tree 11 times. I was waiting for him to tell me to join the tour...

Sadly no.

[virge666]

Lesson 3 - a week later and a lot of golf balls... like fking heaps.

https://youtu.be/kuKtRQJN24M

No longer laid off - takeaway nice and tight. Club now going up the right up and coming down on the right arm...

It all felt horrible, but the ball went towards the golf course sort of. Sent the video off and Luke came back and said... fix the right hand and the setup...

So i sent off a full blown 8 year old tantrum letter. Can get to that position but cant get back to the ball.. here are some photos - and it looks the same as Pamps and Brad... How the hell can i get back to the ball with my arms wrapped around my neck and my right wrist bowed with me standing up...

How about we try and fix something else.. cause i have just hit 5000 balls and cant find impact.

[Dotty]

That's not even close to an older and fatter frame. :)
Welcome back, and good luck with the journey.
I prefer the look of the first video, which means the second one probably works better.

p.s. Thanks for all the advice a decade ago. During this lockdown, I've built myself a practice area and a few old Virgisms keep springing up from the archives.

[virge666]

So Lesson 4 . . . a little sheepish.

So Luke is on Holidays - and from a hotel room - he cranks up his camera and sends me a quick video lesson.

The absolute legend, calmly, says fix up your feet, square the left and fan the right. Setup with a bit more shape into my left side. "Send me some vids of you hitting like that and staying closed"

So i do it.. and it all sort of comes back into shape... the right arm softens and bends, I have room on the back swing and the bloody club isn't across the line.

And that is the story so far... this is lesson 4.

https://youtu.be/lyS-DU7Q7Ik

Pitching is still awesome for accuracy - haven't worked out distances yet, but that will come. Have no idea what putting is. But the ball is going somewhere near the golf course and i have a decent base to start.

[virge666]

That's not even close to an older and fatter frame. :)
Welcome back, and good luck with the journey.
I prefer the look of the first video, which means the second one probably works better.

p.s. Thanks for all the advice a decade ago. During this lockdown, I've built myself a practice area and a few old Virgisms keep springing up from the archives.

HA !!

On the day after that second lesson, i had this move where i would stay a little closed and hit the ball with what felt like both my right and left palms facing almost up. The palm tree is 109m away and i was hitting the top of it with PW every 3rd or 4th time. I was drawing it in from the right, little cut shot from the left, hitting it low and then bashing it over... I was dead set king of the golf course. Had two blokes come over during the day asking for lessons... My head was as big as the 8th green, my chest was out.. "this golf shit is easy", then Gary ruined it and all i could do was shank it at people on the practice green.

T'is a cruel game and once this COVID nonsense is over... you and me are catching up for a game and a cleansing drink of some kind. I did look forward to those Thursday nights of unlimited balls.

[markTHEblake]

If you didnt say you were been coached by the Edwin team I would have picked it in 1 second.

I do like the recentering move before you start down. I need that.

Whats the deal with keeping trail foot heel planted in that last video? Some might say thats hitting off the back foot but it obviously isnt.

[dee cee]

Who do you go to for lessons now? What’s the current swing bud?

[virge666]

If you didnt say you were been coached by the Edwin team I would have picked it in 1 second.

I do like the recentering move before you start down. I need that.

Whats the deal with keeping trail foot heel planted in that last video? Some might say thats hitting off the back foot but it obviously isnt.

Yeah - It stands out doesn't it.

Have a look in that first and second swing. Can you see how my right elbow gets behind my right hip? If that happens - i cant release the club-head with by upper body, i have to flip the hands through impact or hold it open to keep it square.'ish. Look 2 frames post impact and my right knee is bent and i am way behind with my hands flipped over. No good golfer looks like that.

So square the left and fan the right foot and then lean a little into the left.. Soften the right elbow so the down swing is more of an axe chopping motion with the right arm, and i can do this motion through impact without the right leg being bent. Through impact looks so much better and this is what Luke really fixed for me. The PW drill shows it, still not 100% but much better.

This also gives me the same club-head loft through impact - which is what i have struggled with. Distance control... especially with 8 iron up.. fking awful distance control.


Who do you go to for lessons now? What’s the current swing bud?

Been Gary/Luke Edwin, and Don Fardon since just before 2000. Don passed away way too early, when a brain aneurysm got him at 57 late last year, top bloke and awesome golfer.

https://www.garyedwin.com/

[backintheswing]

Yeah - It stands out doesn't it.

Have a look in that first and second swing. Can you see how my right elbow gets behind my right hip? If that happens - i cant release the club-head with by upper body, i have to flip the hands through impact or hold it open to keep it square.'ish. Look 2 frames post impact and my right knee is bent and i am way behind with my hands flipped over. No good golfer looks like that.

So square the left and fan the right foot and then lean a little into the left.. Soften the right elbow so the down swing is more of an axe chopping motion with the right arm, and i can do this motion through impact without the right leg being bent. Through impact looks so much better and this is what Luke really fixed for me. The PW drill shows it, still not 100% but much better.

This also gives me the same club-head loft through impact - which is what i have struggled with. Distance control... especially with 8 iron up.. fking awful distance control.



Been Gary/Luke Edwin, and Don Fardon since just before 2000. Don passed away way too early, when a brain aneurysm got him at 57 late last year, top bloke and awesome golfer.

https://www.garyedwin.com/Wow I didn't know that about Don Fardon junior. His father Don senior was a magistrate and the best golfer in North Qld by a mile. I played a lot of my junior days with Don junior.

[virge666]

Wow I didn't know that about Don Fardon junior. His father Don senior was a magistrate and the best golfer in North Qld by a mile. I played a lot of my junior days with Don junior.

It was a shitty outcome. Just such a nice bloke and very straight forword teacher.

[petethepilot]

It was very sad news about Don. A very fine golfer….and a better bloke!

how is the back going Virge? I thought you were swinging the club pretty well on that day at AGC.

[markTHEblake]

Yeah - It stands out doesn't it. Have a look in that first and second swing. Can you see how my right elbow gets behind my right hip? If that happens - i cant release the club-head with by upper body, i have to flip the hands through impact or hold it open to keep it square.'ish. Look 2 frames post impact and my right knee is bent and i am way behind with my hands flipped over. No good golfer looks like that. That seems like describing early extension? I hit a few balls and tried to keep my trail heel planted, obviously it cant, but we try, so the foot pronates rather than get up on toes by impact.

From the DTL view that seems to reduce early exension because right knee movinh towards left side rather than out in front of me and also the club path and arms rotate to the left after impact sooner and lower.

I think we are both saying the same thing? Just trying to get my head wrapped around it all.

[virge666]

That seems like describing early extension? I hit a few balls and tried to keep my trail heel planted, obviously it cant, but we try, so the foot pronates rather than get up on toes by impact.

From the DTL view that seems to reduce early exension because right knee movinh towards left side rather than out in front of me and also the club path and arms rotate to the left after impact sooner and lower.

I think we are both saying the same thing? Just trying to get my head wrapped around it all.

With you sort of.

My pick is the right hip.. the downswing right elbow IMO feels like it should lag / lever against that right hip, but the upper body has to be in the right position to do that...

Look at Toolish swing. his upper body is going backwards on the downswing and the lower body is sliding.. so his right arm HAS TO extend way too early... but it is all because his backswing is so jammed up - he has no alternative but to do this.

All my latest work has been to get the upper body in the right place so that i can get the arms to work correctly on the way down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ4QEjE9WoI&list=PLyg4tU8bnyijZJEtRaDAHVbe wEJpgm1NZ&index=5

Compare that right leg now... but also notice how different the takeaway is...

Have to get one right so that you can execute the other.

[popper81]

Wow I didn't know that about Don Fardon junior. His father Don senior was a magistrate and the best golfer in North Qld by a mile. I played a lot of my junior days with Don junior.

Yeah, sad hey. My dad knew him and I used to play with in the magistrate social as a young fella.

I was getting coached by Don before I went away.



Virge, I am back seeing Gary. Honestly could listen to him all day. I have my first lesson up on his website from a couple years ago. I have just had a few months of renovating and we just had a little popper. Back into the grind again while I am on leave. Have the lefts at the moment but that is a trust issue [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[mrbluu]

Yeah, sad hey. My dad knew him and I used to play with in the magistrate social as a young fella.

I was getting coached by Don before I went away.



Virge, I am back seeing Gary. Honestly could listen to him all day. I have my first lesson up on his website from a couple years ago. I have just had a few months of renovating and we just had a little popper. Back into the grind again while I am on leave. Have the lefts at the moment but that is a trust issue [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]Congrats on the little popper!!

[markTHEblake]

who would have thought Virges swing would result in a little popper

[virge666]

Yeah, sad hey. My dad knew him and I used to play with in the magistrate social as a young fella.

I was getting coached by Don before I went away.



Virge, I am back seeing Gary. Honestly could listen to him all day. I have my first lesson up on his website from a couple years ago. I have just had a few months of renovating and we just had a little popper. Back into the grind again while I am on leave. Have the lefts at the moment but that is a trust issue [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Such awesome news on all fronts... The best thing I like about Gary is that the swing methodology hasn't changed in 25 years - it is the same thing, on point, endlessly. there are not many coaches who do the same thing and they seem to rotate to anything that seems to be fashionable on Instagram.

[virge666]

This changing golf swing shit is really hard. Just saying...

[markTHEblake]

This changing golf swing shit is really hard. Just saying... Its like trying to change your gait. Easy in practice but weinstinctively go back to the old way when not focussed on it. I am gonna get a lesson from https://instagram.com/colinmccarthygolf soon. If you havent seen him, worth checking out. he is very big on coaching the right way for the body ( and the individuals mind) and not any method. Its all very interesting.

[virge666]

Its like trying to change your gait. Easy in practice but weinstinctively go back to the old way when not focussed on it. I am gonna get a lesson from https://instagram.com/colinmccarthygolf soon. If you havent seen him, worth checking out. he is very big on coaching the right way for the body ( and the individuals mind) and not any method. Its all very interesting.

The problem you have with changing coaches is that everything changes. Am too old for that.

The problem i have is that i am an idiot for not picking something so stupidly basic up in 4 months of practice. Like pointing my shoulders down the target line.

Sigh.

[virge666]

Heading up to QLD on the 2nd through 4th March to the Glades to sort it out.
Video not bad.. but for $50 flights... screw it.

Plus - staying in "elite athlete" accommodation . . . so i have that going for me. :) :)

[markTHEblake]

Catch up for a beer or something? Friday good for me.

[virge666]

Catch up for a beer or something? Friday good for me.

Cheers mate - got stuck actually doing work and had to keep going which sucks..

but if the flights get cancelled tomorrow,, will pm you !

[virge666]

And for those playing at home... 3 hours with Gary Edwin and his son Luke.. wait to you see that changes..

Holy Shit.

[markTHEblake]

Cheers mate - got stuck actually doing work and had to keep going which sucks.. but if the flights get cancelled tomorrow,, will pm you ! Ha. i aint working tomorrow so i am free. I am also a member or the indoor trackman joint here if you are addicted to more numbers

[virge666]

OK so back home and on the trackman...
Mizuno JPX850 forged, Project LZ in 6.0 or stiff or whatever weakened by one degree.


Before I left...
7 iron - 143-147m, couple higher and a couple lower. best was about 152.

2 lessons with Gary and Luke. 5 hours total.
7 Iron - 157-161m, again, couple higher and lower, 171 is about maxed out.

Whilst there - SIM Max iron.. not the OS. KBS iron shaft in Stiff.. I think it was some 85 model.
7 Iron - 171-179m.

Who would have thought.. Club choice and lessons do help ! Just under 40m difference in a 7 Iron.
:)

[Matt 3 Jab]

Sim max 7 iron is 28.5°

850 is 32

However, was it compression, spin loft or speed holding you back??

[virge666]

Sim max 7 iron is 28.5°

850 is 32

However, was it compression, spin loft or speed holding you back??

28 degrees.. Geezuz isnt that a five iron ?

AoA, launch and spin rate - all got a LOT better after some lessons. Same sort of clubhead speed, just way better mechanics.

[BobsYourUncle]

28 degrees.. Geezuz isnt that a five iron ?

AoA, launch and spin rate - all got a LOT better after some lessons. Same sort of clubhead speed, just way better mechanics.

There is some argument to be made that with the newer technology in those sorts of irons, you still get a similar launch angle, flight & descent angle to a "7 iron" (what ever that is) - although generally with less spin. On the other hand, I think a large part of it is because it helps manufacturers convince people to upgrade because their "7 iron" goes further with new clubs.

I have a 35 degree 7 iron, maybe I should go down to Drummonds and see how far a sim max 7 would go for me? But then I'd need a couple of extra wedges... People do get fixated on the number on the club, and want to be hitting less club than their friends.

You're right though, lower lofts & better tech only help so much, most people are better off improving their swing as you say.

[markTHEblake]

People do get fixated on the number on the club, and want to be hitting less club than their friends. You are on the money with all of that. But i there is something else other than just the number. 8 iron up is a different shape head, wedges even more so. The idiocy of this trend is we will soon have 7 wedges in a bag and no 'irons"

[virge666]

.. vids not working

[virge666]

I spent 4 days with Gary and Luke Edwin last week. Had my lesson which i will post up the differences from Day 1 to 4 just for a laugh.

I also watched them teach a few other guys during the week and what really struck me was how important setup was and the direction of the initial turn is, whether you are right sided like me or left sided or whatever pattern.

I honestly cant tell you how important it is - They turn up and went from ok to awesome just by changing those two things. Had a tour pro's come is as well. Luke shared some videos showing bits and pieces for comparison.. it was eye opening, like proper, adult, "thats it" kind of stuff.

So if your struggling with impact.. get those two right first and the rest seems a lot easier.

And for the record.. took two days for me to get it 70% sorted, just that boring setup and takeaway !!