Virge's Swing.

[Hamo84]

Great to hear your up and about and at least able to swing a club....

Despite the pain, I can imagine that you would have at least felt a sense of freedom to at least be able to go back to doing something that you like

[Johnny Canuck]

Glad to hear you're making it back Virge. I can't believe how long this is taking for you. Worst. Luck. Ever.

[moree golfer]

Great to hear you are "schwinging" once again Virge 8-). I look forward to getting to another Ozgolf round in the Sydney region, and having a beer with you this time.

[dhills2]

15 pills a day... bloody hell, you poor bastard :(

You might have to make Terrey Hills Chip n Putt your home course for a while until you can swing pain free.

[Flavzz]

virge, tried to get onto your website to see your vids but its down, whats the go?

[virge666]

No idea why it went down.

She is up now.

[Lucasto23]

how is the recovery going virge?

[virge666]

how is the recovery going Virge?

I played my first game in 6 months on Saturday and had 35 points with two wipes... so I am bloody happy.

My swing actually looks OK - still issues with the lower half, but I seem to always have that. The hands are good.

That being said - I can't hit it out of my own shadow. My 5 iron goes about 160m and my driver is struggling around the 220m mark. I have absolutely no core muscles... I can do about 5 situps and then i need a rest.

I will get some vids up as soon as I get time to get some during the day. We can then pick holes in it.

Life is good.

[moree golfer]

What is the theme of your avatar virge??

[ddasey]

I played my first game in 6 months on Saturday and had 35 points with two wipes... so I am bloody happy.



Virge

Good to hear you have finally made it back onto the course. :smt038

Hope the improvement continues.

[henno]

Be happy you are walking. Then be happy you can even play golf, let alone hit your driver 220.

Great news.

[Jarro]

Welcome back Virge

[virge666]

What is the theme of your avatar Virge??

It is a thing for only people with exquisite taste to know.

;)

Thanks for the well wishes lads - it is sensational to be able to play again, 4 weeks ago I was in a hospital bed with a drip in my arm.

As I said - Life is good.

PS: The X22 tours are a fantastic club

[zigwah]

It's hammer time virge, come back better than ever!!!!!!!! :)

[adlo]

It's hammer time virge,

Stop...... hammertoe
http://www.millerfoot.com/images/hammertoe.jpg

[KristianJ]

PS: The X22 tours are a fantastic club

Glad to have picked the right clubs to buy off you then, Virge 8)

[davepuppies]

Untill a new set of AP2s arrive....... LOL

what driver do you use Virge, i cant remember?

[Scottt]

PS: The X22 tours are a fantastic club

Proof there are ongoing, lasting side effects of the staph infection and associated illness. :lol:

[Lucasto23]

I played my first game in 6 months on Saturday and had 35 points with two wipes... so I am bloody happy.

My swing actually looks OK - still issues with the lower half, but I seem to always have that. The hands are good.

That being said - I can't hit it out of my own shadow. My 5 iron goes about 160m and my driver is struggling around the 220m mark. I have absolutely no core muscles... I can do about 5 situps and then i need a rest.

I will get some vids up as soon as I get time to get some during the day. We can then pick holes in it.

Life is good.

Great to hear your getting back out there, forced layoff suck.
I'm sure you will be flushing them in a couple of months:smt038

[LarryLong]

Top stuff Virge!

Hope your mates are sledging you for hitting like a girl. :)

[dhills2]

...what Henno said.

[moree golfer]

It is a thing for only people with exquisite taste to know.

Aaaah, I have The Wall and Dark Side in my collection 8-).

[virge666]

Proof there are ongoing, lasting side effects of the staph infection and associated illness. :lol:

Ya think ya funny... chopper. :lol:



Hope your mates are sledging you for hitting like a girl. :)

It didn't stop all day - not for a moment. I hit 4 wood to a par 3, one of my partners hit 5 iron over the back... that lasted two holes...

Then it was driver - 4 wood to a 350 Par 4... :oops:



Aaaah, I have The Wall and Dark Side in my collection 8-).

Simply one of the best albums ever. Check out the "Easy Star All Stars" version of DarkSide.

[Toolish]

Nie to see you back...solid round for a restart too!

[razaar]

Good to read that you are back on the course. Interested in why your shot distances have dropped off so dramatically.

[LarryLong]

It didn't stop all day - not for a moment. I hit 4 wood to a par 3, one of my partners hit 5 iron over the back... that lasted two holes...

Then it was driver - 4 wood to a 350 Par 4... :oops:

Awesome! :lol:

Of course, I would happily bunt it around for 35 points off your handicap.

[Iain]

Welcome back Virge....:smt038

[virge666]

Good to read that you are back on the course. Interested in why your shot distances have dropped off so dramatically.

I have NO core muscles... and I mean none.

I can do about 5 or 6 situps before I need a rest. I can bridge or plank for about 20 seconds before failing.

I am still 10kg lighter than I was and my legs look like Sam Worthington's in Avatar.

No core and no legs to stabilise means no power.



Of course, I would happily bunt it around for 35 points off your handicap.

Just looking at my stats - Up and down from 50m in 8 out of 9 times... with no bunker shots. My longest drive was 217m.

Says a lot about low markers doesn't it.

[zigwah]

did they show you the angry cat virge?

[ParMaster]

:lol:

Great stuff Virge! Awesome that your back and playing. I'm happy for you. :D

As a welcoming back gift, would you like to play Sunday week at 10:30 at NSW? 8-)

Let me know if you'd like to have a bash there mate.

:smt038

[virge666]

As a welcoming back gift, would you like to play Sunday week at 10:30 at NSW? 8-)



I would love to - but I cannot do Sats or Suns, got a newborn as well... I can sneak away during the week - but not the weekend...

[virge666]

did they show you the angry cat virge?

The last person to show me that was a girl called Melissa, she was a very talented girl.

[ParMaster]

I would love to - but I cannot do Sats or Suns, got a newborn as well... I can sneak away during the week - but not the weekend...

Aww, congratulations. :D

[virge666]

OK, reality has bitten. 2 rounds in two weeks - shot 81 and 88.

And in my first year of not playing Major Pennants - the bastards are going to make their first final in 5 years. Friggin typical. I didn't know I have been holding them back all these years.

To show how bad I am hitting it - here is a picture of impact. Way too stuck and flipping it big time.

5834

Two good bits of news, 2 of my students won the B and C grade Monthly medal last Saturday, both of them beat me off the stick, including the C grader off 21. Also, the club captain walks up to me and said G'Day and asked how I was doing... I said, "I just shot 90, how the **** do you think I am doing" which got a laugh.

Lastly, on our Eleventh hole with is drivable 265m Par 4, I went all "tin cup" and put my first 3 tee shots out of bounds right... 7 off the tee and a three putt for another "Eleven"

Golf is a funny game !

[sms316]

You have a strange sense of humour if you think shooting 90 is funny.

[GolfBallWhackerGuy]

OK, reality has bitten. 2 rounds in two weeks - shot 81 and 88.

And in my first year of not playing Major Pennants - the bastards are going to make their first final in 5 years. Friggin typical. I didn't know I have been holding them back all these years.

To show how bad I am hitting it - here is a picture of impact. Way too stuck and flipping it big time.



Hey Virge, I seem to have the same problems. How would you try to eliminate this?

[razaar]

Hey Virge, what is that guy behind you in the pic doing - left hand low?

[razaar]

Virge,

In the pic your left hand should be almost past your left thigh for where the shaft is in the pic. I am sure you will know what to do to get it there.

[henno]

Hey Virge, what is that guy behind you in the pic doing - left hand low?

It looks like he's a "backhander" upon first glance, but if you look at the length of the grip there is a lot of space left below his left hand. It's hard to tell for sure, but I think he is just holding the tip of the butt in his right-hand fingers while he works out the grip on his left hand (still at the top of the grip).

[BrisVegas]

OK, reality has bitten. 2 rounds in two weeks - shot 81 and 88.!

And here was me stressing about playing with a flusher like you on Friday at Twin Creeks. You'll fit right in with those scores! :wink:

edit - I haven't played for two weeks and put my back out on Friday... Chiro is helping a bit....

[PerryGroves]

It looks like he's a "backhander" upon first glance, but if you look at the length of the grip there is a lot of space left below his left hand. It's hard to tell for sure, but I think he is just holding the tip of the butt in his right-hand fingers while he works out the grip on his left hand (still at the top of the grip).

Henno, could be the famous Josh Broadaway, played on the Nationwide Tour cross handed. Looks a bit young to be my uncle, he managed to get it round Kooralbyn years ago off 12-14 cross handed, couldn't hit a hook to save his life.

[virge666]

Virge,

In the pic your left hand should be almost past your left thigh for where the shaft is in the pic. I am sure you will know what to do to get it there.

Mate - My right hip should be about 2 feet in front of where it is now... there is no rotation with the lower half, just a big slide. Gimme a few weeks, we should be able to sort that shit out.

That being said I can still play nine holes - but around 8 or 9, fatigue just sets in and I turn to mush. Especially in the humid heat that is Sydney at present. But enough girlish excuses...

The guy was just changing his grip BTW...



Hey Virge, I seem to have the same problems. How would you try to eliminate this?


Easy - you rotate your left hip and try and hit the ball with your right butt cheek. Flipping is caused by the body not moving correctly or rotating. It is an easy fix and is the reason why most people think they hit the ball too high. I will show you a comparison once I get it sorted.

Hey Dion, do we have a cart on Friday ?

[BrisVegas]

yep ,we've got carts at Twin Creeks (& Riverside Oaks fwiw). I'm gonna need one.

We can compare handsy flip swings and see who can generate the most backspin with driver.

[virge666]

yep ,we've got carts at Twin Creeks (& Riverside Oaks fwiw). I'm gonna need one.

We can compare handsy flip swings and see who can generate the most backspin with driver.


Awesome... I am up for it then.

Wont be able to do Catttai though - that is just too far away from home - I wont get home till god know when.

Cant do that with a bub

[KristianJ]

yep ,we've got carts at Twin Creeks (& Riverside Oaks fwiw). I'm gonna need one.

We can compare handsy flip swings and see who can generate the most backspin with driver.

Tremendous news! I didn't really feel like walking much on Fri morning either :p

[razaar]

Mate - My right hip should be about 2 feet in front of where it is now... there is no rotation with the lower half, just a big slide. Gimme a few weeks, we should be able to sort that shit out.

The guy was just changing his grip BTW...




Actually that is not what I see in the pic....I see the right forearm being very passive and not lending any push through impact. The old teachers advised to try to get the elbows as close together as possible once the swing was underway. This one little thought sets up the rotation/rotation of the arms and eliminates an area where slack can creep into the swing. At impact the hands need to be ahead of a line drawn from your sternum to the ball to achieve the best results. Something for you to consider.

[Iain]

Right forearm can't add anything to the shot, as the right arm is almost straight....

[virge666]

Actually that is not what I see in the pic....I see the right forearm being very passive and not lending any push through impact. The old teachers advised to try to get the elbows as close together as possible once the swing was underway. This one little thought sets up the rotation/rotation of the arms and eliminates an area where slack can creep into the swing. At impact the hands need to be ahead of a line drawn from your sternum to the ball to achieve the best results. Something for you to consider.

Yep - perfect for a two plane golf swing, diabolical for a one plane swing like mine is meant to be. (Meant to be . . .)

The right elbow stays behind and I use the rotation of my lower body to lag the golf club. I try to not use outside rotation of the right forearm at all in the swing... again, TRY TO. Failing miserably here.

With no core strength - my lower half is stalling and everything else just depends on what my hands are doing for that swing... it is rubbish and inconsistent. That left arm is also very bent which also leads to inconsistency.

[virge666]

Right forearm can't add anything to the shot, as the right arm is almost straight....

Exactly.. nice one.

All it can do is flip - to add power to the swing. Which takes compression and control away

[razaar]

Right forearm can't add anything to the shot, as the right arm is almost straight....

It is the straightening of the right arm which gives positive assistance (a push) to the left.

[Iain]

It is the straightening of the right arm which gives positive assistance (a push) to the left.

Yes, I agree but his is too straight too soon, he's "run out of right arm". It needs to straighten a lot later after impact than what it has.

[razaar]

Yes, I agree but his is too straight too soon, he's "run out of right arm". It needs to straighten a lot later after impact than what it has.

It is after impact and no signs of straightening and even if it did straighten the shaft is spent because the clubhead has passed the hands.;)

[Iain]

It is after impact and no signs of straightening and even if it did straighten the shaft is spent because the clubhead has passed the hands.;)

Seriously? Look's pretty straight to me.....

Plus to know what the right arm is doing before impact you'd need to see a photo of just before impact....

[Eag's]

Have to agree with Iain on this one, his arm is definitely straight.

[virge666]

Here is the swing vid gents...

http://rapidshare.com/files/361394399/Virge0703.wmv.html

Enjoy.

And the arm is not the problem - the arm has no choice but to straighten early. It is attached to my body that has stopped turning.

I have to fix the source of the problem - not the sympton

[TourFit]

I have to fix the source of the problem - not the sympton


New clubs...???

[PeteyD]

Nice new shiny driver will fix that!

[dan]

I'd like to see you shift less and get the hands further away from your body.

But I could be way off the mark in my analysis.

[PeteyD]

Maybe he should do it in a grass skirt, and then dance the hula. Might help.

[virge666]

I'd like to see you shift less and get the hands further away from your body.

But I could be way off the mark in my analysis.

All good Dan, but it is how you do it.

How do you shift less and keep your hands further away... not collapsing the right side would be a start...

So how do you not collapse the right side . . . you don't stall the left side/ slide the lower half.

How do you not stall the left side . . . you get it out of the bloody way by rotating it.

So by clearing the left hip, you stay taller, you stay in your spine angle and your hands get further in front of the ball at impact becasue you can lag the club more. And the answer remains to Clear the Hips and upper body through impact. Get those shoulder and hips alsmost the right same angle at impact.

ANyone got any other ways to do it ? I am open for anything.

[PeteyD]

Got ny drills on how to improve clearing the hips?

[BrisVegas]

I got nothing constructive to add mate, other than just look away when you see me on the tee box this Friday. I don't wanna give you the cold sweats. :wink:

[virge666]

Got ny drills on how to improve clearing the hips?

yep - but they are all stolen.

:)

I am happy to record a few though.

[razaar]

Here is one I had saved in word. -
Fire the Hips!

By Brett Gorney
PGA Director of Instruction, GolfTEC
July 26, 1999
Part 2 of a two-part series: Hip Rotation in the Golf Swing
Remember that little guy on the driving range from last tip--the one that was bombing his driver to the back of the range? Well, he wasn't hitting the ball that far just by keeping his hips from over-rotating on the backswing.
Part One of this article was about the hip rotation at the top of the swing. I wrote about turning the hips too far on the backswing--a common fault I see when teaching. Over-rotation of the hips creates a loss of power because the golfer then has to un-rotate even more in order to get back to the ball at impact.
Part of the power in the golf swing comes from the shoulder rotation being greater than the hip rotation at the top of the swing. Known as the X-Factor, this difference in rotation creates a stretch or coiling of the body. That puts you in a powerful position at the top, but this is only one-half of the golf swing.
All of the golfers that can hit the ball a long way have one thing in common. They are firing their hips around on the downswing. Another common fault I see in teaching is the student's hips not being open enough at impact. GolfTEC's motion analysis computer measures how many degrees the hips have turned open (towards the target) at the impact position.
Our data shows us that the PGA Tour player's hips are turned 40 degrees open at impact and most of the golfers I teach have only turned their hips 10 to 20 degrees open. This is typically the result of a lateral slide on the downswing rather than a turn of the hips. When the hips do not open through the impact area, there are usually several other reactions that amount to inconsistency and loss of distance.
As the golfer slides through the shot, inconsistencies and loss of distance arise from the bending of the left arm through the impact area (right arm for lefties). Ask yourself this question, "How consistent is 'bent' during a moving action?" As the left arm is bending, the club is being pulled away from the ball and inside the intended path.
Since the club is pulling in towards you, the ball is struck with a glancing blow and on the toe of the club resulting in a slice that doesn't go very far. Does this sound familiar? It is a very common fault, so here is a three-part drill to get you on your way to correcting the problem.
Start by setting up to the ball. Your belt buckle is facing the ball…this is zero degrees of rotation. We are looking for 40 degrees or more at impact. Keeping the club on the ground behind the ball and your upper body still, start turning your hips open toward the target. Your belt buckle should now be turned so that it is facing out towards your left foot. Now reset up to the ball, this time take a 1/4 backswing and make a slow downswing, turning your hips and stopping at the ball.
Again, your hips should be turned open toward the target so that your belt buckle is turned out towards your left foot. You will also notice that your left leg is straight and not bent at the knee. The last part of the drill is to take the 1/4 backswing and swing through this time trying to turn the hips as much as possible. Repeat this three-part drill 25 times and really concentrate on turning your hips open.
Here are some swing thoughts that a handful of my students think of when trying to turn the hips more through impact.
"Fire the right hip around."
"Fire the right knee towards the left knee."
"Get my left leg straight and left hip turned behind me"
"Get my right pocket turned to the ball as soon as possible."
"Turn my belt buckle towards the target"
"Hit the ball with my right hip."
There is no right or wrong thought, just find something that works for you. Practice this in front of a mirror so you can see the hips turning through. If you are keeping your hips from over-rotating on the backswing and doing it correctly, you should start to see more consistent ball contact and greater distance. Stop by a GolfTEC location to get your hip rotation numbers checked.
If you have any questions, please contact the store location nearest you or call 1-877-4GOLFTEC. Golftec is also on the web at www.golftec.com (http://www.golftec.com/).

[edhannan]

"...a one plane swing like mine is meant to be."

Virge, that comment caught me somewhat by surprise coming from a GE product.
Although Gary Edwin hardly ever mentions plane, his instruction seems to me to direct players to a 2-plane swing.
Who else in his stable do you see as a 1-plane swinger?

[virge666]

Here is one I had saved in word. -


Cheers Ray, I like it. Half the battle is getting the feel. Especially when what is right feels so weak.


"...a one plane swing like mine is meant to be."

Virge, that comment caught me somewhat by surprise coming from a GE product.
Although Gary Edwin hardly ever mentions plane, his instruction seems to me to direct players to a 2-plane swing.
Who else in his stable do you see as a 1-plane swinger?

No - he doesn't. Not at all. Ever. But let's break it down as there is nothing new anymore.

2 plane swing is a hands orientated swing. Where the hands and arms release the club through impact. What GE calls a left sided swing more or less.

The 1 plane swing is a body released swing, for lack of a better description. The upper body is what releases the clubhead. This is exactly the same as a GE swing. Have a look at any GE swing and you will see the hips and shoulders MILES open through impact.

Sure - there are some differences, with setup, and the backswing - but all in all - if it looks like a duck . . . Check the last few frames with impact and especially where that right elbow is.

So I use some of the Jim Hardy 1 plane drills for my GE swing.

I pretty much live off GE, Jim Hardy One plane and Peter Cowan. Cowan teaches Westwood, Stenson, Dyson and a few others of note in Europe. He also has the Euro mens and Women's Amatuer champions, so he can teach bad players as well as good ones.

There was a cute byline for Cowan at one of the Srixon coaching summits...

"At the Portuguese Masters - off the 160 participants, Cowan was or had been involved with coaching 112 of them"

I reckon that is a pretty good resume.

[edhannan]

"The 1 plane swing is a body released swing, for lack of a better description. The upper body is what releases the clubhead. This is exactly the same as a GE swing. Have a look at any GE swing and you will see the hips and shoulders MILES open through impact."

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize that the GE swing falls into the 1-plane category. I guess I haven't seen 1 and 2-plane swings distinguished by body or hand release. The definitions I've encountered seem to focus more on the left arm/shoulder relationship at the top, the depth of the right elbow, and so on.

"Check ...where that right elbow is."
??? Bear with me. I don't know what difference(s) I'm looking for. I'd say the 1-planer has it lower and more in front of the body.

[razaar]

Virge
Does the one plane swing or whatever it is you are trying to do have a different shoulder plane during the downswing to the back swing?

[virge666]

"Check ...where that right elbow is."
??? Bear with me. I don't know what difference(s) I'm looking for. I'd say the 1-planer has it lower and more in front of the body.

GE has a sort of two plane backswing with a one plane club release. GE has always gone around and then up on the backswing like a normal two plane backswing. But seeing as it is a body release - I just use the one plane drills. You cant use much else of the one plane with GE. yeah - I know it is confusing - but as they say - what ever works.

The right elbow is BEHIND the right hip... YEAH behind - just like Hogan, Moe and Trevino. VERY VERY important that !!


Virge
Does the one plane swing or whatever it is you are trying to do have a different shoulder plane during the downswing to the back swing?

Not normally, but to be honest I don't really care about much other than how it looks through impact and the first two feet of the takeaway.

1 plane swing - the clubshaft matches the shoulder plane at the top
2 plane swing - the clubshaft does not match the shoudler plane at the top, but changes on the downswing to the shoulder plane.

Easy distinction.

[virge666]

Tonight's swing after some drills looks a bit better

5852

Attached is a video of the swing.

http://rapidshare.com/files/361886727/Virge110310F.wmv.html

I did a lot of c0cking the wrist and leaving angle in the right wrist on the way down and clearing the hips like a bastard - you can see it has changed the posture through impact, but more importantly it has changed how the lower half moves through the ball. It still stalls, but it stalls a lot later and I don't hang back any more. Which results in way less flip !

I am rather chuffed with the change.

[LarryLong]

Tonight's swing after some drills looks a bit better

5852

Wearing a shirt with a collar makes all the difference.

[razaar]

Not normally, but to be honest I don't really care about much other than how it looks through impact and the first two feet of the takeaway.

1 plane swing - the clubshaft matches the shoulder plane at the top
2 plane swing - the clubshaft does not match the shoudler plane at the top, but changes on the downswing to the shoulder plane.

Easy distinction.
OK. So, with the one plane swing it is important to have the posture at address at an angle which allows the arm/shaft plane to match the shoulder plane at the top of the backswing without disturbing the upper body and hip angles?

"changes on the downswing to the shoulder plane" now that is very confusing to me.

[grandmasterb]

Just watched your video virge and kudos for identifying and fixing the problem so quickly. Im having a similar issue at the moment (only really with the driver though) but i think its from a lack of shoulder turn which im trying to compensate for with my arms.

I have no idea if im a one or two plane swinger but i'll take some footage later and hopefully you might be able to identify my problem/s

Best of luck with the recovery and achieving that level of game you once had.

Ben

[dan]

Better looking vid. Nice slow mo.

[edhannan]

"The right elbow is BEHIND the right hip... YEAH behind - "

I'll take your word for it. But I wouldn't have been able to pick it out on my own.
I can't really tell in a down-the-line view. In a face-on view, I see it clearly in the swings of Coles, Gardiner and Barr. Not so evident though in the swings of Lamb, Pamps, Gow, Senior and Flood where the elbow appears to be more in front. I'm assuming it just looks that way because their right hip has turned more (in the swing clips that I have.)

What typically happens if the elbow gets ahead of the hip? My guess is a push or a flip and hook.

[razaar]

Ed this is something that made me think also. If the shoulders are open at impact then the right elbow has to lag behind the hip other wise you would pull everything left. This method takes the late hit to the extreme and requires a very athletic move to get the belt buckle facing the target at impact. IMO not the sort of thing Virge should be attempting until he is fully recovered and has a few months of serious core work under his belt.

[edhannan]

" belt buckle facing the target at impact. "
That is extreme. But I wouldn't say that is what GE swingers are trying to do. At impact the shoulders are slightly open, the hips more so.
The belt buckle turns to the target in the follow through.

[razaar]

Yep there needs to be a 40* difference between the hips and shoulders at impact for power - if the shoulders are open to the target at impact then the buckle needs to be almost facing the target. Not a fan of this method but it will get it out there, if the body holds up.

[edhannan]

"...at impact...the buckle needs to be almost facing the target."
This is Pampling with a driver at impact

5872
and post impact



5873
Not saying you’re wrong, Raz, but I don’t see it here.

[razaar]

Ed my comment referred to the shoulders being open to the target at impact with the right elbow riding on or behind the hip. Pamps shoulders are close to square at impact. Notice how tilted they are, tilted shoulders stop the shoulders from spinning and give the hands and clubhead a chance to catch up. Bubba Watson in the same position has his belt buckle facing the target. More flexible players who have a greater "X" factor (hardly have a hip turn with a full shoulder turn) fire their hips around maintaining their back swing position (shoulders to hips) and the buckle faces the target when the shoulders are square to the target. It has nothing to do with GE but with the physical attributes of the golfer. This is why so many club golfers get injuries - trying to get into positions their body can't handle.

[razaar]

I should also mention about those who don't get a full 90* shoulder turn and have a restricted hip turn. This type of player is 99 percent of the time going to have his shoulders open at impact. Therefore he must have the right elbow back further at impact to guard against the left hand pulling to the left too early. The stock shot for this type of swing is a strong draw which starts out to the right and comes back and his bad shot is a hook.

[virge666]

Yep there needs to be a 40* difference between the hips and shoulders at impact for power - if the shoulders are open to the target at impact then the buckle needs to be almost facing the target. Not a fan of this method but it will get it out there, if the body holds up.

You need to rethink that - the shoulders are not square. They appear to be square because the front shoulder is pulled across the chest. The shoulder are open and opening more.

Allenby would be a swing that has both very open and hence leave with the idea that you get a strong draw. Charles Swartzel would be a swing with the same kind of motion without the Strong Draw

As for the hips - you HAVE to get the front hip out of the way. This drops the clubshaft back on the flatter plane. I am not interested in getting the belt buckle towards the target at impact - but I will be clearing that front hip, as quick as I can.

[CanuckDownUnder]

Virge, I like to thank you for the UST shaft X that I picked up from you recently. Refitted in the G15 and I have been bombing them ever since. I'm averaging about 270m in yardage since the switch and hit my farthest drive ever @ 346m. Cheers

[virge666]

Virge, I like to thank you for the UST shaft X that I picked up from you recently. Refitted in the G15 and I have been bombing them ever since. I'm averaging about 270m in yardage since the switch and hit my farthest drive ever @ 346m. Cheers

No problem - anytime.

[edhannan]

Better looking vid. Nice slow mo.

Nice indeed.
Virge, what is the camera...and what is the speed setting to get this kind of result?

Also, would you please post a down-the-line vid.

[Bushka]

Virge, I like to thank you for the UST shaft X that I picked up from you recently. Refitted in the G15 and I have been bombing them ever since. I'm averaging about 270m in yardage since the switch and hit my farthest drive ever @ 346m. Cheers

346 ? Don't get long, get massive :)

[virge666]

Casio Epsilim and that is 210 frames per second.

It can do a lot more but the lense is just not up for it.

DTL - I will have to get one.


346 ? Don't get long, get massive http://www.ozgolf.net/../images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

Yep - says a lot for Yoga and golf really.

[Bushka]

Speaking of hips firing, they had John Senden on the golf show tonight, dear me that man fires his hips out of a damn cannon. They are open and turning before he even starts down.

Yoga huh. Might get myself into that need to work on my core.

[razaar]

Tonight's swing after some drills looks a bit better

5852

Attached is a video of the swing.

http://rapidshare.com/files/361886727/Virge110310F.wmv.html

I did a lot of c0cking the wrist and leaving angle in the right wrist on the way down and clearing the hips like a bastard - you can see it has changed the posture through impact, but more importantly it has changed how the lower half moves through the ball. It still stalls, but it stalls a lot later and I don't hang back any more. Which results in way less flip !

I am rather chuffed with the change.
A couple of suggestions to consider.
First one concerns the stance. It needs to be wider to get rid of the slight dip in the legs into the follow through, The hip hip turn looks wrong to me, seems to be no left leg thrust to get the hip back quicker. The trick with this is to turn the left foot out 20-30* towards the target making sure that the alignment of the left knee and quad match that of the foot. Make sure that this alignment is maintained through the backswing, which makes it very easy to thrust back into the left heel and turn the hip behind you. Make sure the hips are a little left of centre for the reverse K.

The second suggestion concerns the left shoulder during the transition to the forward swing. To get maximum out of the left arm and shoulder lever, the top of the lever (the left shoulder) needs to be held momentarily to allow the other end of the lever (the hands and wrists) to move first. This movement should coincide with the thrust back of the left knee and foot.

[CanuckDownUnder]

Stick to Power Yoga (Ashatanga) Lengthens those needed muscles and strengthens that core. Also btw, I'm now paired up with a golf pro in Camerray and do golf fitness clinics there. Heaps of core work if anyone's interested. Now would that last blurb be a commercial posting?

[razaar]

Stick to Power Yoga (Ashatanga) Lengthens those needed muscles and strengthens that core. Also btw, I'm now paired up with a golf pro in Camerray and do golf fitness clinics there. Heaps of core work if anyone's interested. Now would that last blurb be a commercial posting?

Do you teach astanga yoga?

[virge666]

A couple of suggestions to consider.
First one concerns the stance. It needs to be wider to get rid of the slight dip in the legs into the follow through, The hip hip turn looks wrong to me, seems to be no left leg thrust to get the hip back quicker. The trick with this is to turn the left foot out 20-30* towards the target making sure that the alignment of the left knee and quad match that of the foot. Make sure that this alignment is maintained through the backswing, which makes it very easy to thrust back into the left heel and turn the hip behind you. Make sure the hips are a little left of centre for the reverse K.


Couldn't agree more - I hate my hip turn. It is due to what I thought the GE swing was, and I struggle to get rid of it. It looks like rocking backwards and forwards as opposed to actually turning. Add my classy spin and flip move through the ball and Yep... right with you.

I am probably not going to reverse K as much as you may like... mainly due to me liking to be more "covering" the ball during the swing.



The second suggestion concerns the left shoulder during the transition to the forward swing. To get maximum out of the left arm and shoulder lever, the top of the lever (the left shoulder) needs to be held momentarily to allow the other end of the lever (the hands and wrists) to move first. This movement should coincide with the thrust back of the left knee and foot.

I like that - I am at the range tonight and see what I can do, especially with the pulling of the left hip out of the way.

I need to sort that left arm too - split hand drills for that. Anyone got any others for the straight left arm ?

[Bushka]

Stick to Power Yoga (Ashatanga) Lengthens those needed muscles and strengthens that core. Also btw, I'm now paired up with a golf pro in Camerray and do golf fitness clinics there. Heaps of core work if anyone's interested. Now would that last blurb be a commercial posting?

I'm intersted in the ashatanga yoga aspect. Would love to do that but cammerays a punish to get to for me due to spit bridge. Will check around Manly for my own Swami :)

[razaar]

Virge
The best advice I have got for the straight left arm is not to give it another thought. Relaxed arms - like Geoff Ogilvy displays in his swing - is something all expert teachers advocate, which we should all incorporate into our game.

The other thing I failed to mention about the hip turn, is to keep the right leg in its braced position (which is left of its address position) at the top of the backswing and use only the left foot and left knee to turn the hips. The braced right leg stops weight flowing back on to the right side.

One of the things about the GE swing that confuses me is the perception that the golf swing is a forehand action (turning the trunk with the elbow riding on the hip as in the tennis forehand shot). The scientific studies I have read about the swing describe an uncomplicated swing as being a backhand action using a two lever system, which is backed up by the swings of all the world's leading players since the game began. Do you have any thoughts on this?

[virge666]

Virge
The best advice I have got for the straight left arm is not to give it another thought. Relaxed arms - like Geoff Ogilvy displays in his swing - is something all expert teachers advocate, which we should all incorporate into our game.


yeah - I use to think that, I may be moving to the other side. I am starting to think that a straight left arm gives a little more consistancy. Work in progress...



The other thing I failed to mention about the hip turn, is to keep the right leg in its braced position (which is left of its address position) at the top of the backswing and use only the left foot and left knee to turn the hips. The braced right leg stops weight flowing back on to the right side.

Cheers - I can try that.


One of the things about the GE swing that confuses me is the perception that the golf swing is a forehand action (turning the trunk with the elbow riding on the hip as in the tennis forehand shot). The scientific studies I have read about the swing describe an uncomplicated swing as being a backhand action using a two lever system, which is backed up by the swings of all the world's leading players since the game began. Do you have any thoughts on this?
[/QUOTE]

I don't like the word uncomplicated - the whole golf swing is very complicated. If it wasn't then more than 2% of the worlds golfers would be off single figures. The other bullshit word is "Natural", there is nothing natural about it, it is a completly foreign movement, there is nothing else we do or have evolved doing anything like this.

As for a comparison, I just think of it as a Body swing vs a Hands swing. One hits the ball with pressure and force, the other hits it with hand speed. Forget the GE side of it and compare other golfers.

Tommy Armour, Henrick Stenson, Duvall, Sorestam, Westwood, Casey, Stricker... these are all body swings. Phil's short game that he teaches on his DVD is a body release. Older guys like Hogan and Moe are also body release.

Thenn compare it to Phil's full swing, Poulter, Cink, Couples, Love, Bubba Watson, Senden and Glover where they are very handsy post impact.

There is always two levers here - always. A single lever wouldn't go very far

[Bushka]

This threads been great. Theres a wealth of info here.

One thing that is very much on my mind after reading about all this swing tweaking.

When you want to make swing changes, or actually build your swing. How do you do it? I try to visualise my swing and then attempt to repeat it physically. But if your making tweaks how do you build that into your muscle memory?

Do you do the swing exceptionally slowly several times? I am interested to know how you guys go about this.

[virge666]

This threads been great. Theres a wealth of info here.


Don't tell 3OD that . . . ;)



Do you do the swing exceptionally slowly several times? I am interested to know how you guys go about this.

Drills - lots and lots of drills. With 8 iron up only. Very rarely will you find me at the range hitting driver.

See you up there tonight.

[CanuckDownUnder]

Do you teach astanga yoga?

I don't actually , but I have a client that teaches me. When she's away I go to Power Yoga in Neutral Bay. But if you can find one place in your area I suggest you try it. I've learnt to swing 200% effort with only a 60-75% swing if that makes any sense. I'm more flexible than ever , but only use about 60-70% range due to an increase in core strength.

[henno]

I've learnt to swing 200% effort with only a 60-75% swing if that makes any sense.

Nope, it doesn't.

[Yossarian]

There is no try, only 200% with 70%

[razaar]

I don't actually , but I have a client that teaches me. When she's away I go to Power Yoga in Neutral Bay. But if you can find one place in your area I suggest you try it. I've learnt to swing 200% effort with only a 60-75% swing if that makes any sense. I'm more flexible than ever , but only use about 60-70% range due to an increase in core strength.
I was doing it at home on my lonesome for a couple of years (from a book by Beryl Bender Birch) mainly the Salutations, surya namaskara A & B; and got out of that routine. They certainly warm you up.

[3oneday]

Don't tell 3OD that . . . ;)
first time I've bothered to look in here, but only because I saw Raz had posted last.


He makes a lot on sense, don't you think :)

[Bushka]

I don't actually , but I have a client that teaches me. When she's away I go to Power Yoga in Neutral Bay. But if you can find one place in your area I suggest you try it. I've learnt to swing 200% effort with only a 60-75% swing if that makes any sense. I'm more flexible than ever , but only use about 60-70% range due to an increase in core strength.

Sounds like something worth investigating.

I'm pretty sure theres a surf yoga class down at North Steyne surf club early morning. They'd probably do a lot of the same core style stuff that would be useful in golf. I know that most of hitting the lip and doing the monster cut backs is all about coiling/uncoiling.

Met virge last night too. The man just knows his stuff. Marked improvement inside of an hour for me. Could not be happier that I joined this forum.

[virge666]

Nope, it doesn't.


There is no try, only 200% with 70%

It does help when you are build like tank also. Canuck is a very, very fit and flexable individual. Sort of like a Villegas body type.


first time I've bothered to look in here, but only because I saw Raz had posted last.
He makes a lot on sense, don't you think :)

:) , he always makes sense.

[Bushka]

I don't actually , but I have a client that teaches me. When she's away I go to Power Yoga in Neutral Bay. But if you can find one place in your area I suggest you try it. I've learnt to swing 200% effort with only a 60-75% swing if that makes any sense. I'm more flexible than ever , but only use about 60-70% range due to an increase in core strength.

http://www.qiyoga.net/yoga_beginners_03.htm

Found this place round the corner from me in Freshwater. $25 for the first 5 lessons and they run a beginners class in Ashtanga.

Going to give it a run.

[razaar]

Virge

How did you go with keeping the left shoulder still during transition backswing to downswing?

I remembered seeing a drill for this in Jim Flick's book which is a cracker. Furyk does this perfectly which makes me wonder if this drill was/is part of his practce routine. I will type it as it appears in the book "Jim Flick on Golf".

The Four -Step Drill
Grab a mid-iron, tee up your ball, and take your regular stance.
Then:

C0ck your wrists and lay your club on your right shoulder without changing your spine angle. Fingers secure, arms relaxed and close to your sides.
Turn your torso, with your weight moving over your right leg. The turn should be about 90 degrees, with the left shoulder moving behind the ball.
Lift the club into the desired position for your normal backswing, that is, shaft parallel to the ground and to the target line. Your hands should be under the shaft with the clubface square and somewhere between the right shoulder and head high.
Here comes the hard part. With hands and wrists still c0cked, drop your arms down towards your pants leg while holding your torso and shoulders turned. Think of this as a rehersal of the the first half of your forward swing. Do it three times, letting your hands stop just above the right knee each time. Then, take one final swing - this time, a complete one - with no change in effort level, and let your hands return to your starting position at address so that your club head can strike your ball squarely from inside. Don't worry about your follow-through - the swing's momentum will take care of it.

[virge666]

Alrighty lads I am back. Martin Ayres has inspired me and here is the results.

Same Edwin type swing - just added Martin's load and release as per my interpretation of his 1 hour online video I bought for $35.

Enjoy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYAopGtKjFo&feature=youtube_gdata

[Courty]

Hmmm, interesting.

I've been reading the posts and watching some of Martin's video's, but I still don't quite follow. Maybe I need it dumbed down some more. :roll:

[virge666]

Hmmm, interesting.

I've been reading the posts and watching some of Martin's video's, but I still don't quite follow. Maybe I need it dumbed down some more. :roll:

You need the vid mate - "most powerful move in golf"... it is only $35 and IMO well worth it, even if some of it is shot in Elk's kitchen.

The bit I like is that I finally have a feel for the release. I finally have the motion of the hands on the way down. I have seen it down - i have read about it being done and I have tried to teach my idea of it. But now I have a FEELING for it.

And it feels like throwing a ball with topspin.

Enjoy

[Yossarian]

I like how you chased the last shot down the range.

[timah!]

Thanks for posting that Virge.
After being away all week I've been swinging all manner of things trying to get a feeling for the 'Marty Move'.
Can't wait to get home and give it a swing with a club.

[markTHEblake]

Alrighty lads I am back. Martin Ayres has inspired me and here is the results.
I would have gone nuts looking at my own swing for as long as you must have done to edit it.

per my interpretation of his 1 hour online video I bought for $35.

I cant see any of Marty in that- thats a good thing, cos thats what they say in the video :-)

but well done, so much more power in that swing now.

[Hogan's Bogan]

You need the vid mate - "most powerful move in golf"... it is only $35 and IMO well worth it, even if some of it is shot in Elk's kitchen.

The bit I like is that I finally have a feel for the release. I finally have the motion of the hands on the way down. I have seen it down - i have read about it being done and I have tried to teach my idea of it. But now I have a FEELING for it.

And it feels like throwing a ball with topspin.

Enjoy

I don't get it. I was looking for a 'magic' move and perhaps that's somewhere in the $35, but I can't see anything but someone executing the load and release of the wrists in a good swing. Passive wrists will never drive through the ball. Try your one handed swing without cocking and releasing the right wrist - it's actually harder NOT to do naturally. It's just like a topspin in tennis which is a created by a rotation of the wrist and forearm. I suck at the one handed drill because I'm a lefty who plays golf right handed, so my right hand is totally unco on its own. But join it with my left and it does what it's told.

Do Hogan's warm up drill and you achieve the same thing. That's assuming I'm not missing something - and that's quite possible given Elkington hasn't come across it til recently.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEM

[markTHEblake]

its that simple, anyone can do that

[Hogan's Bogan]

its that simple, anyone can do that

Yes they can. Swing like Hogan though? Probably not. But the point of the exercise is to ingrain the feeling of the hips and body being the engine room of the swing, and the arms follow the lead of the body, moving naturally, but on a consistent path.

[razaar]

Virge
At a guess I would say that that previously you have been getting the shaft behind the left forearm by the time your arms start going up and rotating. This move with the handle at takeaway has helped you to keep the shaft level with the left forearm right through the swing until the wrists start to unhinge in the start of the though-swing when the shaft then gets level with the right forearm. That is the reason you get the solid feeling of the clubhead in your right hand and right side. You will also be able to control the clubface by tweeking the right hand through the ball when this happens.

[LarryLong]

That one handed swing is really good Virge- at least you know that if you ever lose an arm you'll still be a decent golfer. Struggling to really see the change there, but the results look good, although a few of the later ones looked a bit like a push to the right. Did your consistency suffer at all? I think this Marty move stuff might be a bit complicated for a chopper like me to work out.

Nice to know I'm not the only chopper who walks off the front of the tee box at the driving range occasionally. :)

[Jarro]

Nice work Virge, i like the way your swing looks simple and very easy to repeat ..... without too many moving parts :)

[virge666]

Thanks for posting that Virge.
After being away all week I've been swinging all manner of things trying to get a feeling for the 'Marty Move'.
Can't wait to get home and give it a swing with a club.

Try the one handed stuff with a really short club... I have a cut down 3 iron that is filled with sand for weight... this is where the light bulb moment started.



Do Hogan's warm up drill and you achieve the same thing. That's assuming I'm not missing something - and that's quite possible given Elkington hasn't come across it til recently.
[/QUOTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEM[/video][/QUOTE)]

The 5 Lessons have been with me for an eternity - there is a picture of the left hand rotating through impact in there somewhere. Hang on found it ... google images is cool

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQ39kdH-Lrzq6gZJGmkwDBk0II7_FTuoFZuAUtQEv_68DN9NvQ


This and some Faldo VHS tapes have been my bible of the release since I started playing. There is also another Edwin drill with the left hand rotating up like a top spin shot in tennis.

None of these drills give you width on the downswing or backswing - nor do they help maintain a radius. Marty's move does.

Also Hogan's warm up is just that - you will see it change further into the video as his hips move with the arms and then they separate and the hips move to drag the arms through. The skill in golf is timing this as well and controlling the wrists through impact. My 5 year old can do the warm up - but she cannot hit the ball for shit.

[QUOTE=razaar;602814]Virge
At a guess I would say that that previously you have been getting the shaft behind the left forearm by the time your arms start going up and rotating. This move with the handle at takeaway has helped you to keep the shaft level with the left forearm right through the swing until the wrists start to unhinge in the start of the though-swing when the shaft then gets level with the right forearm. That is the reason you get the solid feeling of the clubhead in your right hand and right side. You will also be able to control the clubface by tweeking the right hand through the ball when this happens.

Not quite - I have been hanging back and throwing my hands at the ball. And to compensate - I have been sliding to get the ball remotely straight.



Nice to know I'm not the only chopper who walks off the front of the tee box at the driving range occasionally. :)

That is just momentum... remember the hanging back and sliding... cant walk forward if you do that.

To be honest - I am just hitting the ball as hard as i can there... enjoying that I can simply bring the club through impact with extra movements.

Also keep in mind I am 12 months out of back surgery and a Staph infection in my spine.

[dan]

At the "BANG" moment and onwards you were swinging/hitting faster.

[virge666]

Lastly,

I am not all hugs and kisses for Marty's method. It was bloody hard work.

This is almost 3 days of trying to work out WTF the right hand going up the spine and the "show the guns" position at the top was all about. All I did for about an hour was hit shots fat, then left, then high right, then tantrum, then another tantrum, then abuse myself for trying to follow some BS, snake oil seller on an golf website. I was quoting "the perfect club" infomercial at one point. "But wait - there's more - you can hit the ball both ways AND fat..." :(

But, I could do it properly with a shortened club in the office, and I could get the move down well.

So back to the range... I quickly made up a very light club. DG Superlite, STD Length 7 iron and tried again. I couldn't get the club to a position at the top where it felt solid.

So I added a pause at the top - to see if it needed more time. And then it got worst.
So I sped it up... and that got worser.

I then dismissed Marty and a total F-Wit and tried to hit some balls with my old swing. While doing this - I thought... I should just do some short pitches with his method and see if that helps.

Fat, Chunk, Right, Right, Righter...

I still cannot use Marty'smethod for the short game... I can sort of do it with 50m+ pitches, but I do struggle with shorter shots. I have found playing the pitch shot of the back foot helps with Marty's method... I am sure I just need some more work here, but short game is the strength and savior of my game so any changes here may take some time to implement.

It was not till the one handed shots on the range with the light club did I finally start to get it. You can actually see the moment where I lay the club on plane one handed that my brain synced up. It was at that moment that the backswing made some sense too. Lead lag the club up to the top and then reverse rotate to torque it up. I hit about 10 shots one handed and 8 of them were pretty good and past 120m with the superlite 7 iron.

So I added the other hand to see what changes with the other hand... you can see on the vid where i am lead lagging the club outside, then a little less outside, then a little less and a little less untill it looks like a normal backswing. (another magic moment!) I did this a lot for the next half hour... I start a mile outside and slowly swing it more and more inside until I get a good position half way back. I don't quite get the U shaped start that is in the video... but it will have to do.

So about now - I am feeling happier. Marty has been promoted from dodgey golf channel infomercial that he was a few hours back. :)

The second BANG moment - again on the video is where I find THAT position at the top of the swing. And let me tell you... I woudl have paid for many lessons @ $100 a lesson for THAT moment. This is the position at the top of the swing that you can unleash hell. We can all get to it if you pull the club back and set your self in that position. Baseball players start like this for a reason. The lower right shoulder, the dynamic posture, the right arm locked and loaded and the right shoulder stable and cocked. The problem is getting there on the backswing and especially getting there under pressure.

The video shows the moment where I go from being shut and high to being square, flat and loaded. Finally the "show the guns" move made sense. I spent the rest of the night just belting 7 colours of shit out of the golf balls. No technique, no grace, just belting golf balls as hard as i could from that position at the top. It was most excellent.

I did finish off with some more short pitching - but still cannot use the move for this- the ball goes too far and i do not have enough control.

This morning - no back pain which is also a plus - especialy after 4 hours of practice and some very hard shots at the end of the night.

That is the progression - for anyone listening/reading, the method works... I am sure one on one is a better option than the last 3-4 days have been for me trying to work it out on my own. Short clubs and lite clubs are what gave me the lightbulb moments.

Enjoy

[BroKar]

got to say I have had the same feeling numerous times now where you start to think I am one of the suckers that bought from an infomercial, i still dont get it yet but i am sure i will

[virge666]

At the "BANG" moment and onwards you were swinging/hitting faster.

Yes I was... cause i could. Look at the first couple of swings... they also look faster, but they are off balance with a lot of slide. The last couple are faster but in balance with momentum towards the target - not just me bashing it.

Any idiot can just "hit it harder", but i was able to hit it harder - not fall over and the ball went remotely straight.

That is why I am rather happy.

[Eag's]

Looking good Virge, the ball flight seemed to be identical on each strike.

[Captain Nemo]

Looks good Virge.
A lot like what Robbie Curtis has me doing now.
What club shaft and model was that (serious q's as i was looking at ball flight)

[virge666]

Looks good Virge.
A lot like what Robbie Curtis has me doing now.
What club shaft and model was that (serious q's as i was looking at ball flight)

Blue handle is Cobra CB with ProjX 5.5
Black handle is AP2 710 with S300

[dan]

not just me bashing it.
Are you saying that you couldn't bash it before and stay in balance? Cos I've seen you hit it just as hard with your old swing. The difference now is you seem to have confidence in this method but we'll see what happens when the honeymoon is over.

[virge666]

Are you saying that you couldn't bash it before and stay in balance? Cos I've seen you hit it just as hard with your old swing. The difference now is you seem to have confidence in this method but we'll see what happens when the honeymoon is over.

Amen to that.

But check out the first two swings... it is a different balance, posture and speed. In the first swings - I am using my body to counter balance the swing, but the last couple of swings are from a more solid base.

You can also see how much faster I generate speed in the last set of swings.

[razaar]

Well inbed it....the last thing we learn in golf is usually the first thing we forget.;)

[Captain Nemo]

Blue handle is Cobra CB with ProjX 5.5
Black handle is AP2 710 with S300

What iron, 6/7?

[virge666]

Well inbed it....the last thing we learn in golf is usually the first thing we forget.;)

hell yeah - how true is that.


What iron, 6/7?

7 iron mate.

[Captain Nemo]

Ok great now gives me a picture.
Robbie has me putting my rght forearm low and feeling the backswing is goig outside the line (its not really).
Then i just turn and downswing and hit nice draws!

[Jarro]

Virge, got a vid of the driver swing handy ?

[martinez]

It may or not be a honeymoon, but Virge, I think if you give the runners stance a try...(It's step one in the vid) and feel tall in your right side and turned toward the hole more you will get a U'ge payoff given what you have described as your main issues.

edit..I realize that may be different in the extreme to the Edwin deal...but as they say, in for a penny...

[virge666]

It may or not be a honeymoon, but Virge, I think if you give the runners stance a try...(It's step one in the vid) and feel tall in your right side and turned toward the hole more you will get a U'ge payoff given what you have described as your main issues.

edit..I realize that may be different in the extreme to the Edwin deal...but as they say, in for a penny...

Will do - the runners stance I have been trying with the short pitches... but more work needed.

As for the Edwin comparison . . . as with most patterns, there is not much different, just different terminology.

Your runners stance is like the "into yourself" setup... but your release is like the "down and around" bit that I have struggled with for ages. You are both Hogan-esqu in what you teach and that is what has brought me to this point.

And to be brutally honest - you are both VERY right sided or a better term is "strongly left sided" with the right side going around the left. Either way - more work and we shall see what happens.

Have a top weekend all.

Enjoy.

PS: What golf course are you at in the video with the beach and waves behind ?

[martinez]

Will do - the runners stance I have been trying with the short pitches... but more work needed.

As for the Edwin comparison . . . as with most patterns, there is not much different, just different terminology.

Your runners stance is like the "into yourself" setup... but your release is like the "down and around" bit that I have struggled with for ages. You are both Hogan-esqu in what you teach and that is what has brought me to this point.

And to be brutally honest - you are both VERY right sided or a better term is "strongly left sided" with the right side going around the left. Either way - more work and we shall see what happens.

Have a top weekend all.

Enjoy.

PS: What golf course are you at in the video with the beach and waves behind ?
Long Reef Golf Club.....

I think you'll find I have a lot that is not in common with Gary Edwin. I think if you can get to where the difference lies it will rid you of your right butt cheek down problem for good.

The left sided set up that he recommends, the way I see it...has your left side in the way and you must turn around it...the runners stance is the opposite of that in that it is designed to get your left side out of the way.....the resistance to the left side turning back seems to be a common ground. But from the runners stance you should be 50/50 weight distribution, if not favouring the right side a shade, and wound forward of the ball. Into yourself is right....but it's into your right side not left.

I say this with your best interests in mind....I think you should go to that polar opposite and see where it leads you. With your ability and knowledge of the swing...you will then be able to settle on the 'right' mix for you...the best balance for you.

[markTHEblake]

I think if you give the runners stance a try...(It's step one in the vid)

Thats almost what I thought when Virge started his ramble, that he missed the 'beginning' of the lesson, where you describe the golfers intention needs to be towards the target.

[virge666]

Thats almost what I thought when Virge started his ramble, that he missed the 'beginning' of the lesson, where you describe the golfers intention needs to be towards the target.

Golfers intention left = Into yourself or a touch of weight on the left side... Edwin calls it pressure on your left foot.

What this really means - or my interpretation of it is that you don't shift lower body weight to the right side on the backswing. You load into your right side on the backswing. Just like every other sport out there from tennis to Basball pitching.


Long Reef Golf Club.....


Damn - thought so !!

I live on the Northern Beaches.



The left sided set up that he recommends, the way I see it...has your left side in the way and you must turn around it...the runners stance is the opposite of that in that it is designed to get your left side out of the way.....the resistance to the left side turning back seems to be a common ground. But from the runners stance you should be 50/50 weight distribution, if not favouring the right side a shade, and wound forward of the ball. Into yourself is right....but it's into your right side not left.


A common mis-conception, my understanding of this is that they dont want the left hip to pull the right hip under on the downswing. And then this exploded to end up that Edwin is a no legs or hips swing . . .

The hips have to clear, and they have to continue to rotate through the swing, they just cant get in front of the upper body otherwise you hit it left all day. If you look at Pamps, Lamby or the Angry Dwarf you will see them ALL load the right side and clear the left on the downswing. it is a little more level than most - but the left always gets out of the way.

With regards to favouring the right side and not the left... think of a baseball pitcher. Even when he is coiling up - his upper body is going backwards - but if you do this - you have pressure on the ground with your front foot. So your weight is back - but your intention is forward.

Either way - I want something that matches up to every other sport I play such as Tennis, Squash and Cricket. If I am going to hit something to my left - I need to load up the right side against the left side, then unleash my right side. (i think that makes sense). If you throw a ball - you coil your right against your left and then unleash you right side with all the torque you have created.

The big difference between the two patterns as I see it is how the shoulders rotate, and I am open to both ways. Your method gives me the stable, lower right shoulder that Peter Cowan, Edwin and a few others advocate... and I am all for that any way I can, cause I suck at that.

As you say - in for a Penny - in for a pound.

Have a top weekend.

[martinez]

The last thought I'll leave you with regard to going around your left (which I don't agree with) is that the goal should be to line the right and left up so they can move together not one around the other...that way you can use it all. Think of a kicker taking the last delivery stride, to the cricketer playing a drive....a Javelin thrower switching from running straight on to sidestepping. In all cases the left side is the one expanding to allow delivery. If you stay compressed against the left you can only use the right side, I like to use it all.

[virge666]

The last thought I'll leave you with regard to going around your left (which I don't agree with) is that the goal should be to line the right and left up so they can move together not one around the other...that way you can use it all. Think of a kicker taking the last delivery stride, to the cricketer playing a drive....a Javelin thrower switching from running straight on to sidestepping. In all cases the left side is the one expanding to allow delivery. If you stay compressed against the left you can only use the right side, I like to use it all.

I agree on all counts mate - we are on the same page. The left has to move - it's rotation adds power and control.

If you restrict the left you have to rely on hand eye coordination to square the club up and that it just too hard.

[s12raider]

Virge - that's the bomb fella! Sh#T looked great to watch as I sit on my arse doing jack squat.

[virge666]

Just thought I would throw in that a couple of months of Martin's release and I am flushing it.

I don't use the lag takeaway - but the position at the top and the motion down is just gold. I am driving it 270-280m and straighter than I ever have and I an hitting my 6 iron up to 170m which is just bloody unheard of.

Life is friggin good.

[Daves]

Just thought I would throw in that a couple of months of Martin's release and I am flushing it.

I don't use the lag takeaway - but the position at the top and the motion down is just gold. I am driving it 270-280m and straighter than I ever have and I an hitting my 6 iron up to 170m which is just bloody unheard of.

Life is friggin good.

Good to hear Virge.

What are your thoughts on us mug choppers trying to master The Move? I haven't really put much time into The Move as yet, I have focussed on the other stuff that Martin showed us.

[virge666]

Another Thursday night and another night of hitting it well and learning.

Martin has this concept of containment and aiming the mass of the club. it is quite a clever concept and with cupping the left wrist on the backswing allows you to store quite a lot of power or lag for the release on the downswing.

The hard bit for mine is having a strong enough core and legs to hold the amount of power that gets stored up. I am dipping the upper body into impact and getting pulls, fat and even up fighting it with blocked shots.

I think I will spend some more time in aiming the mass at the ball and letting the clubhead trail - it feels very narrow and steep which is contrary to my teaching from edwin.

Lots of runners stance drills seem to stop the posture drop on the downswing. But the direction of the downswing is still a bit wrong...

Lets see what happens on the weekend... I think a littel fitness is required to hold this new foudn clubhead speed.

[aimnhit]

Virge is the swing really meant to be this hard??! I understand cupping the wrist is a power source but the problem is it's swooshing the face with way to much rotation.. Seems like a timing move.. Great for hitting it a long way but hard to contol I would imagine... So the basis of what's happening is creating the most lag possible???
The most powerful move in golf.. Correct statement...
Let us all know how it starts to work out.. Make me a believer..
Martinez I'm not having a crack at you buy anymeans if it comes across that way I'm sorry.. I'm just curious and asking questions.. I'm sure it would work and i probably just don't understand or you wouldn't be letting us all in on your secrets... Enjoying all your post cheers

[virge666]

Virge is the swing really meant to be this hard??! I understand cupping the wrist is a power source but the problem is it's swooshing the face with way to much rotation.. Seems like a timing move.. Great for hitting it a long way but hard to control I would imagine... So the basis of what's happening is creating the most lag possible???


To answer your question...

The golf swing IS hard... it is harder for a 20 marker than a 15 marker, it is harder than a 10 marker than a 5 marker and it is harder for me than it is for you. It is like anything - if you do it a lot then you don't spend time thinking about what you are doing - it becomes 2nd nature.
But for us who get to play once a twice a month with little practice - a lot of us play "golf swing" instead of golf.

The best comparison is learning to drive... first time in a car, matching the gear shift to the clutch . . all your attention is on it. 5 years later - "Is shifting gears really that hard ??"

next question . . .

The cupping the wrist stops it going left . . . you can hit it as hard as you like with that cupped wrist from any part of the backswing and it just won't go left. Sound familiar ??

Because of the rotation and the twirl . . and of the body, the cupping actually goes pretty bloody early (it is gone by the top of the swing) - but my current thought is that the cupping gets the actual clubhead a bit further away from you... which allows you to get a later hit... this is a guess mate - it is all feelings and I have only been doing it for a couple of months...

I cannot stress this one enough - it ain't a timing move... I shit you not... IT IS NOT A TIMING MOVE. I can perform this action a 20mph and 120mph with no problem. The pivot is loading the hands... so it is NOT timing. (that bit i am sure off)

I have spent a couple of full days with Martin and as I learn more - I wil post it here.

I am an Edwin boy from way back as I play quite a short course and i am more into controlling ball flight and making the game a little more fun and creative. I am also a bit of a geek when it comes to golf swings so i like the control RSS has anyway. I have seen you play many times over the years, followed you around twice just because I loved the way you have both your feet off the ground at impact and you unlike many professionals I see, you have "that sound", that WUMP sound at impact. I have that every now and then . . . . I WANT IT MORE !

Now my rant about Martin... :)

Martin has about 5 or 6 things that will change your swing. Personally - the most powerful move is lesson #5 and unless you understand lesson 1 through 4, then trying to do "the move" is bloody pointless. For mine - it is a process of learning and not an actual move.

Now - it is not new swing method - it is not an unconventional hold off swoop, flick, with a cupped wrist. It is as you can see by his swing looks a lot like 50 players on tour - he goes up on plane nicely - comes down strongly and has a lot of lag in it. When I first saw it I thought it was a mixture of Hogan and Trevino. Sort of single plane kind of thing.. and a bloody good motion by all accounts. (shit load better than mine !!)

What I see his method entailing is not so much "learn this powerful new move that gives you 20 yards" ... it is more - here is a better way to setup, a better way to get to the top, a better way to load the downswing... it ain't a different motion as such - just a better way to learn it. That is how I see it for mid markers.... NFI how he works with his plus markers and professionals. I am sure it would be more individualistic but with the same ideals.

Back to me . . . :)

I was at the range last night and was absolutely flushing it. Couple of things I noticed...

- For me - it is a rotary swing. This opinion may change, but for mine it is still a rotary swing, but the motion of the arms pushing in that rotary swing just adds so much more... so, so, so, so much more.
- the ball doesn't have a tail. Push and Pulls for bad shots - but not left going left and not right going right. This has been a statement by many of his students I have conversed with. The "Aiming @ the Mass" bit sort of squares you up nicely.
- I can fade the ball by bringing the club across me more... rotating left, but it ain't a true fade. Have not quite worked out anything else yet. I guess opening the club face and closing the club face . . . but I have had two range sessions with it, so WTF could i know about moving the ball after this...
- I have never in my life ever hit my driver or 3 wood and better than last night. The Nunchuk helps, but last night was a bit special. i actually had a few people watching me hit the same shot... same height, same direction... it was pretty cool as that has never happened before.
- I don't have any control with pitching yet... I only have power. But I do have clean, solid, contact and I do have straight... so we will see what happens over the next few weeks.

The bit that really has me thinking though is all the shit that has been said to me over the years... from TGM to Edwin to Cowan to Harmon to Leadbetter to the local pro... is that so much of their stuff fits into his swing ideology. There is very little contradiction, and mentally for a low marker... that is pretty important as I am not going to change my entire swing at all IF it doesn't makes 100% sense to me.

I am also a little drugged f*cked on the the amount of bloody power I have to spare... I was hitting 9 iron 150m on a cold night with Srixon range balls last night. Admittedly - I had nothing left in reserve, but I was still balanced and the ball was straight. It is not often I can say a solid (not smashed) 9 iron goes past 140m when I play a mizuno blade 44 degree 9 iron...

All in all - it has been about 2 months . . . I am still in the Honeymoon period and I would like to get a few comp rounds under my belt and see what my stats are like under a bit of pressure... more to come.

Enjoy

[virge666]

Please no more rain . . . had enough now.

[Captain Nemo]

Please no more rain . . . had enough now.

Oh really!
Im with ya brotha!

[virge666]

Being an Edwin student, I setup with a lot of my lower body weight over my left side... That really butchers Martins swing method.. Even with the inclination left

Found a way to do it on the 11th hole. Went 4 deep over the last 7 holes.

This week I am going to get another game on Tuesday or Wednesday. I have found another "thing" in the pattern. And the feeling is quite foreign.

More practice. But it is starting to click that little bit more... 23 points on the back nine shows it is starting to bed in.

New video when I can

[Yossarian]

Come holiday in perth virge. That hip, gary player thing had me smoking it at the range. Can't quite seem to bed it in.

23 points is good shooting!!

[virge666]

So a few months into it and what has happened. I am lucky enough to spend a bit of time with Martin but have not played any golf.
3 rounds in 10 weeks is no way to keep a low handicap. If it wasn't for Phil and some cored greens... I think my scores would be in the mid twenties.

I am happy with the progression, the odd pull shot is nothing to be too scared of, my pitching is OK for a rusty player... but the big change is the thought process.

This method has one hand-action for the whole swing... the twirling action. You simply aim your body and execute the twirling action... for a technical player like myself - this is a nice thing to have. There are no other thoughts... just aim and execute.

I am not at a good enough level for it to be proficient... but the video looks good and should get better once the lateral move into the ball subsides a bit.

Anyway - latest video is here... apologies for the shitty frame rate - it is the best i can do at night.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DVOKpX4Fv8

[Captain Nemo]

That it!

[razaar]

Looks good mate.

[Yossarian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r09GiFmkU_U&feature=related

This one is better :)

[Jono]

Virge, your use of the term "twirling" is interesting.

I don't know whether you mean the same thing, but I have been using the twirling action for some time in my swing ever since I read Dan Shauger's book. Dan Shauger supposedly teaches the Mike Austin swing, which some people find debatable. Anyway, I've definately noticed increase in distance using the twirling action as opposed to the traditional hand action.

EDIT: Never mind ... I just read your previous posts and your definition of twirling is probably different to mine ...

[PeteyD]

Some of the footballers I know have an interesting definition of twirling .... helicoptors etc.

[sol381]

looks very compact yet powerful. nice swing.. not much looks like could go wrong with that swing except when it gets quick could get a pull /hook here and there.

[virge666]

Virge, your use of the term "twirling" is interesting.

EDIT: Never mind ... I just read your previous posts and your definition of twirling is probably different to mine ...

I have given the twirl on the way down away... I think I know what Martin means, I am just not at that level yet. Maybe in a couple of weeks as I learn to move the ball both ways. I only have a 5m-10m fade at present and the straight shot.


looks very compact yet powerful. nice swing.. not much looks like could go wrong with that swing except when it gets quick could get a pull /hook here and there.

I get pulls and pushes just depending on where my body is on the downswing... if my upper body goes backwards - i get the pull, if I slide into impact - I get the push. if my hips go forward and my shoulders go back - i get the pull cut. All of which I can play golf with, without missing the golf course.

The lack of swing thoughts is a big advantage for me.

[sol381]

I agree. the less you think the better you hit.

[virge666]

I agree. the less you think the better you hit.

For years I have been told to focus on a "motion" and not a position. I have got it half right rehearsing motions to positions and then trying to match all motions up. It works - but not under pressure and not at the higher level.

For me - it is like driving a manual car - when you first learnt, it was all about matching up the friction point of the clutch with the revs and findind the right gears and all that kind of thing. After a few months though - you just do this automatically - their is no concentration at all on how to change gears or match up the clutch.

I want my concentration on aiming and executing, not on how to aim or how to execute.

Easier said than done, especially under pressure.

[sol381]

how many other sports do you focus on movement or technique.. imagine a tennis player or cricketer,baseball player etc.. thinking about their swing during a shot.. all they are focused on is hitting the ball and where that ball is going.. the difference is they have a split second to decide whereas golfers have all the time in the world and the ball is stationary. try even throwing a ball and thinking about the throw rather than the target.. you'll have no chance.. the only thing i focus on is the ball and trying to get the club head to hit the back of it..if you are aligned right and have the right club you are never too far from the target.. work on technique at the range and leave it there when you play. just hit the ball.

[markTHEblake]

have you always been that narrow? (backswing). When I think about and try the Marty twirl thats how it seems to happen to me.
(though I dont profess to be able to do it, i lost my way when I busted my shoulder and have not tried any of it since)

[virge666]

how many other sports do you focus on movement or technique.. imagine a tennis player or cricketer,baseball player etc.. thinking about their swing during a shot.. all they are focused on is hitting the ball and where that ball is going.. the difference is they have a split second to decide whereas golfers have all the time in the world and the ball is stationary. try even throwing a ball and thinking about the throw rather than the target.. you'll have no chance.. the only thing i focus on is the ball and trying to get the club head to hit the back of it..if you are aligned right and have the right club you are never too far from the target.. work on technique at the range and leave it there when you play. just hit the ball.

Amen brother !

Awesome post - also easier to say than do and it only works on the course when you are hitting it where you want to... if your not - then you are searching for WHY you are not.

This is where the change is... I am now fixing it by continually rehearsing the action... not looking for a position to be in on the way down. I am now not looking to FIX anything - I have the right motion - i just need to execute that motion...

As a golf player - that is just awesome.


have you always been that narrow? (backswing). When I think about and try the Marty twirl thats how it seems to happen to me.
(though I dont profess to be able to do it, i lost my way when I busted my shoulder and have not tried any of it since)

To be honest - and it is an Edwin and Marty thing - I just dont care about width.. or let me rephrase that - I dont care about width of the clubhead.

My left arm is straight-ish and it is very straight by 9'oclock on the down swing . . . so I just dont care about the backswing.

In fact - one thing that I have learn from Edwin and been reinforced by Marty is that, THE position at the top... and I mean THAT position at the top is the only thing I care about... how I get there, and the path it takes is now just not an issue.

As long as I get to THAT position, i have a stable pivot and I can unleash it all on the ball without sliding or losing my balance.

The back is a bit sore after 18 holes . . . so the next step will probably be to reduce the power a bit so I don't need the 3 beers at the clubhouse to loosen the back up.

:)

[Scifisicko]

In fact - one thing that I have learn from Edwin and been reinforced by Marty is that, THE position at the top... and I mean THAT position at the top is the only thing I care about... how I get there, and the path it takes is now just not an issue.




Ive recently come to the same conclusion. Ive pissed away a lot of effort on my backswing.

[virge666]

Ive recently come to the same conclusion. Ive pissed away a lot of effort on my backswing.

Even Tennis starts at the end of the backswing . . . golf is stupid sport that has too many fundementals that should be ignored.

The grip is another one... a good grip is only good if you have a good fundementals.

[Scifisicko]

Yeah, the harder i pivot the stronger i make my grip (sigh)

[Jarro]

Any updates here Virge ?

[virge666]

Shit yeah !

Heaps and heaps happening, trying to hit it properly for the upcoming Pennant Season. I have gone 100% Phil with short game and pitching and my long game I have started cupping the left wrist on the backswing and float loading the downswing.

The aim is to see just how far I can hit it and then see how far I can hit it with a balanced swing. I have been playing with some professionals lately and I am pretty happy with most parts of it.

I will do some video on Thursday and upload it.

[Jarro]

Sounds very interesting Virge ..... keep us informed ;)

[Jono]

I have started cupping the left wrist on the backswing and float loading the downswing.



Virge, when I asked you at the champs what you meant by the term "twirl", you mentioned that it's the way you throw the club in front of you. When you say you are float loading, are you still doing the twirl move?

[Jarro]

The aim is to see just how far I can hit it and then see how far I can hit it with a balanced swing.



This is the comment that most interested me.

Being an ex-baseballer and handy cricketer (one day Jack) i've always tended to want to smash the living bejesus (sorry Blakey) out of the pill !!

Sometimes i tell myself to slow down and try and smooth it out there, and get great results, but the smash tendancy is too strong to resist :(

I know when i tried the Edwin stuff i had a more controlled swing, but i always thought it wasn't going to get me the distance i wanted and after a while i tried going back to the hit it mentality.

Very interested to hear about your results Virge.

[davepuppies]

Will you fly me by 30 with the new swing Virge????

We are due for a game!

[edhannan]

Following your progress and glad to hear of your success. I'm interested to know your thoughts about how much, if at all, you've moved away from Gary Edwin's pattern.

Two questions:
- Should the front knee flex established at setup increase during the backswing? (It appears to in the Edwin models, but I'm thinking that may be an illusion.)
- If the increased flex should not occur but does happen in your own swing, might that account for your long-standing complaint about a low right arse on the downswing?

[virge666]

Ed,

My translation of your questions...

- Not important... your over thinking it.
- Please see above.

The Edwin swing is a throw, like a baseball swing, like a tennis shot, like passsing a football. Go and rehearse these actions and tell me what you your knees and the respective flex is.

What you have to find a practice motion that gives you the end result . . . I have an very old edwin drill that I use to rehearse the motion. I will take some video of it next week and show you it.

The big change for me is the downswing as you will see by the video attached... I have fix my setup - which was appalling and this has helped change my downswing to avoid the low right arse.

The more you try and copy positions other than setup - the more trouble you are going to get into... and also the more confused you will be.

You need to find the motion that will give you the positions - not try and copy the positions to try and get the motion. Check out Gaz's video called "Impact is Everything"

Anyway - here you go.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXBvsTEFmRQ

[Puji]

what are you playing off these days virge?

[Jarro]

That Brad Lamb swing is fantastic ..... 8)

[virge666]

what are you playing off these days virge?

Would you believe 5 . . . yeah, not happy about it.

Work and family just ruin your golf. I get to play once every 3 weeks and I get to go to the range for an hour every 2 weeks. Paying $2500 a year for membership mean I think I am paying around $150 per round of golf. You can scratch around with the odd good hole, but you just cant turn 3 into 2 enough to get or keep some momentum. Just too many soft bogeys . . .

I got asked to trial for pennants this year . . . have played 2 rounds and realise I am way out of my depth. We have 3 scratch golfers, (one who is 15 years old) and another 3 guys of less than 3, doesn't leave much room for me chopping it off 5.

Anyway - bit of practice and let's see if i can get back to 2 or 3 and flub my way into the team playing at 6 or 7.

And yeah - Brad has a sensational swing - but I think he has given it away and got to something that pays a living... goes to show how important chipping and putting is when you cant earn a living with that swing !

Andrew Stolz isn't doing too badly either leading Asian order of merit with a cool half million. Gary Barter at the Aussie teaches him !

[edhannan]

Thank you for the responses, Virge. Your Nov. 17 vid shows marked improvement in body positions and movement.

I'm very interested in the Edwin drill you mention...eagerly awaiting.

[Trento]

virge, im relatively new around here and dont have time to go through previous posts.
Did you used to go to Gary?
Are you now seeing Martin ayers?
if so, why?

[virge666]

Thank you for the responses, Virge. Your Nov. 17 vid shows marked improvement in body positions and movement.

I'm very interested in the Edwin drill you mention...eagerly awaiting.

The drill is below - up the wall drill.

It is rotating the upper half against the lower half. - The right wrist sort of works upwards in a tennis top spin forhand sort of fashion.

Hope that makes sense. - apoligies for the swearing in the clip


virge, im relatively new around here and dont have time to go through previous posts.
Did you used to go to Gary?
Are you now seeing Martin ayers?
if so, why?

Yes and Yes and Yes and yes and Donnie Fardon as well. I like the right sided swing, a lot.

I am bit different to most guys with golf - you will see a lot of people look at swing and rubbish various parts of them as they do not co-incide with their ideals about how a swing should look and feel. I don't do this and have a go at people who do.

I look for the similarities in methods. As I have gotton older - I have found that pretty much that everyone teaches the same swing but they might have something they focus on that is their "thing".

Martin has the setup and wrist action - which I have tried to add to my Edwin swing with good results. Marty also has helped in getting me more balanced at setup and has some great "feelings" for the backswing and his downswing move is absolutley brilliant.

The only thing I really look at is impact - I can see at impact what is wrong with the other parts of the swing and can usually change other bits to make impact better.

Have a look at Courty's swing vid for my kind of evaluation.


http://youtu.be/wfjE09WYf4Q

[dan]

You don't turn your upper half enough. It looks like you're relying on your arms to do the hit.

[virge666]

You don't turn your upper half enough. It looks like you're relying on your arms to do the hit.

I am guessing you mean for the full swing . . .

What makes you say that ?

[dan]

I am guessing you mean for the full swing . . .

What makes you say that ?
Was that not a full swing? Your shoulders hardly turn much.

[Jarro]

Virge, any chance you could put up a driver swing ?

I'd like to see how the swing looks when you're really going after it.

[virge666]

Was that not a full swing? Your shoulders hardly turn much.

really . . . I am pretty happy with that... but I wish I could not see the right elbow.

Check out the attached photo.


Virge, any chance you could put up a driver swing ?

I'd like to see how the swing looks when you're really going after it.

yeah mate - no problem. I will try and get one in daylight too.

[edhannan]

Virge, thank you for the drill. Much appreciated.

Re other comments here:
- looks to me like you have plenty of shoulder turn
- at the very top of your backswing, maybe more right arm than you want to see, but just after the downswing begins the right arm looks pretty much as in the GE models

[Trento]

Virge, im struggling staying forward enough through impact, i tend to lose my spine angle, and as Don calls it , i tilt and back up at impact.
Its an old habit thats hard to break, any drills, or thoughts?

[virge666]

Virge, im struggling staying forward enough through impact, i tend to lose my spine angle, and as Don calls it , i tilt and back up at impact.
Its an old habit thats hard to break, any drills, or thoughts?

Hey mate,

You are in that horrible void of doing what you think the RSS and ignoring all the cool bits of your old swing. This phase really sucks and a lot of people dont get past this bit. Those swings that I saw of yours are very weak because you dont use your pivot at al, and it looks like you are trying to restrict it even more.

This was a major stumbling block for me - I couldn't get the 7 iron out past 135 as all that was working were the hands... gave me the shits no end.

This is what you are missing. Yep - you clear your hips... but here is the kicker, you dont pull your arms through with the hips as per other styles of swing, you brace them upwards and back. Now...GE and Donnie will say not to do this - or more than likely not to actively think about doing this - and they are right - you dontactively pull that hip back and up - it sort of happens. BUT THE TRICK IS NOT TO RESTRICT THE HIPS, let them do whatever they like.

This is how I finally got it.

Grab you pitching wedge and pick a target 60-70 out. I use a flag at Narabeen Driving range. I use my arms only, BUT NOT RESTRICTING THE HIPS and I try and bash shots 10 feet high at the flag without the ball drawing or fading.

Here is a video of it. This is how I got Power back with the Edwin Swing. I do this a lot and I mean a LOT !!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd5NzAITSfE

[Trento]

thanks for the feedback virge, yes its driving me mad, as the result is gererally a thin shot which drives me mad, i think your right, Don is also telling me to hit alot of half wedges too.BTW, that video Blakey uploaded onto here was the footage don took at the start of the first lesson, the recent videos have improved alot, i have eliminated alot of the movement off the ball and he has changed my set up quite a bit.I will keep perservering with it, as i really believe its the way to go for me !

[timah!]

Virge, you're an Edwin fan yeah? Can you break down this drill for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8pHQYh6viM&sns=em

[virge666]

Virge, you're an Edwin fan yeah? Can you break down this drill for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8pHQYh6viM&sns=em

Wow,

I haven't seen that one for a while... I actually like the music !

[timah!]

:D

[Jarro]

Virge, you're an Edwin fan yeah? Can you break down this drill for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8pHQYh6viM&sns=em

The shimmy parody .... love it :)

[virge666]

Jarro,

Here you go - 7 iron by memory. Pulled the first one about 30m left but thumped the last one.


http://youtu.be/3B2Ue0GzRnE

[Jarro]

Thanks Virge :)

Still keen to see a driver swing though ;)

[virge666]

Thanks Virge :)

Still keen to see a driver swing though ;)

Just load up Pampling mate - it is almost identical.

;)

[Jarro]

Just load up Pampling mate - it is almost identical.

;)

I'll bet it is too ;)

[sol381]

looks like you have a lowish ball flight....good control that way.. i like the abbreviated follow through on the second shot

[virge666]

Thanks Virge :)

Still keen to see a driver swing though ;)

Loaded mate - Here you go. I kept the pre-swing to show how I do it.


http://youtu.be/8slYo4-u0wo


looks like you have a lowish ball flight....good control that way.. i like the abbreviated follow through on the second shot

Hmm . . . No.

I hit the ball high. It is much easier to control the length of the shot by doing that. I can of course hit it lower . . . as you can see in that drill of mine. But everything to do with technology in golf resounds around hitting the ball high.

Just look at the top 10 golfers in the world - they all hit the ball stupidly high.

That being said - that 2nd swing is the best swing I have put on video . . . ever.

[Jarro]

Thanks Virge ...

.. just like Pamplings as you said ;)

[virge666]

Thanks Virge ...

.. just like Pamplings as you said ;)

Yeah - I know . . . not even close !

give me a month . . . I am working on it.

(I putt better than Pamps though . . .)

[Jarro]

Yeah - I know . . . not even close !

give me a month . . . I am working on it.

(I putt better than Pamps though . . .)

Not taking the piss or anything ;)

Pamps swing is awesome and would be very hard to replicate IMO. He seems to have moved away slightly from the full-on Edwin method and has created a bit of hybrid swing.

It's a beautiful action though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Otzl_KTD8&feature=related

[virge666]

Pamps swing is awesome and would be very hard to replicate IMO. He seems to have moved away slightly from the full-on Edwin method and has created a bit of hybrid swing.


He is pure Edwin mate... absolutley pure.

He just has such a strong core and he has been doing it longer than some of the less graceful others, he just makes it look prettier . . . and more powerful.

[live4golf]

Virge, send me your address again...

[Jarro]

He is pure Edwin mate... absolutley pure.

He just has such a strong core and he has been doing it longer than some of the less graceful others, he just makes it look prettier . . . and more powerful.

Yeah he does make it look better than the others .... i especially like his fuller follow thru ... not the cut off ending most others have.

[virge666]

Yeah he does make it look better than the others .... i especially like his fuller follow thru ... not the cut off ending most others have.

Just like this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHo3TGBP9S4&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[Jono]

Thanks Virge ...

.. just like Pamplings as you said ;)

No.

Pamp's is rotating powerfully about an axis that is slanted away from the target. Virge is rotating around a more vertical axis.

Watch their heads. Pamp's head moves slightly away from the target throught the impact zone. Virge's doesn't.

If I got a force plate under their shoes, the pattern would be completely different.


14888

[virge666]

Yep - Nice one Jono.

Now - how to fix it ?

[Jarro]

Yep - Nice one Jono.

Now - how to fix it ?

How about a swing analysis ... Virge Vs Pamps .... Virge style ;)

[virge666]

How about a swing analysis ... Virge Vs Pamps .... Virge style ;)

There would be a lot of swearing...

:)

[Jarro]

There would be a lot of swearing...

:)

We can handle that i'm sure :mrgreen:

[Jono]

Yep - Nice one Jono.

Now - how to fix it ?

Virge,

In my stash of golfing literature, I have a paper called Ground reaction forces and torques of professional and amateur golfers.

In it is a graph showing the ground forces of both feet at various stages of the golf swing. If I showed you this graph, you would "get it" straight away.

I'll photocopy it and bring it to the long reef game. If you have some time after the game, I'll show it to you and explain the concepts.

[razaar]

Pamps pivot point is his right knee, not sure what Virge's is.

[Jono]

Here's virge's first move down ...

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/28a0b0b3ef50043f6e8c37e3ede8234c.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam to gif (http://picasion.com/)


And heres Pamps ...

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/933dd6b557c6d63227931ac4e20e697e.gif (http://picasion.com/)gif webcam (http://picasion.com/)


Can you see the difference?

Virge is shifting his whole body towards the target. Look at his right leg shifting towards the target as well. Virge often complains that his right hip drops down. Here's why. His right leg is alread leaning towards the target at the top of the backswing and as he shifts towards the target, it leans even more. You don't have to be a maths genius to figure out that this means his right hip will drop. The only way he can prevent the right hip from dropping is if he goes from a flexed right knee position at the top of the backswing and extends his right leg as he shifts towards the target. However, this would be a serious power leakage.

Look at Pampling's right knee. It gets more flexed but it doesn't shift towards the target. His right hip "stays high".

Now, what's happening here? Is Pamps just keeping his right leg posted and moving everything else? Is the right leg passive? IMO, no. His right leg is very active. He is externally rotating his right leg at the hip joint. If he was suspended in air and his foot was not touching the ground, his right foot would turn clockwise. However, the ground his preventing that happen. His right foot exerts clockwise torque on the ground and the ground in return exerts counter clockwise torque on his right leg. This allows his right leg to stay where it is instead of turning to the right.

Look at this animation.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/5daad4ffddff28847f2add18c1279496.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam to gif (http://picasion.com/)

It is my crude diagram of the lower body as seen from above the player. The green bar represents the pelvis, showing how it has turned clockwise about 45 degrees at the top of the backswing. The red bar shows the direction the right leg is pointing (further illustrated by the red arrow). The right leg is in INTERNALLY ROTATED position at the right hip joint. The yellow bar indicates the orientation of the left leg.

As the downswing starts, note how the right leg keeps facing the same direction but the pelvis and the left leg have turned clockwise. However, if the player was suspended, sometime like this will happen.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/899f766872b5fa7a0cfa772d51f5b4fd.gif (http://picasion.com/)gif webcam (http://picasion.com/)

It is the ground reaction force that allows the pelvis to turn counterclockwise (ie towards the target) instead of letting the right knee turn clockwise (ie away from the target)

In swings that are more vigorous, the right leg actually turns clockwise at the start of the swing. Let's look at Jamie Sadlowski's swing.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/401b61a74fed088e9d544b3ede0f3f34.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam gif (http://picasion.com/)

See his right knee flexing and his right leg turning clockwise (ie away from the target)?

This move creates the "squat look" that we see in many powerful swings. Its a powerful move. It starts the turning of the pelvis in the counterclockwise direction and sets you up in a powerful "ready" position with the both knees flexed and wide apart, from which you can really fire through impact.

Virge lacks this external rotation at the right hip joint along with the right knee flexion. He is shifting to his left and getting ready to post on his left leg.

[Jono]

Now comparison through impact ...

Here's Virge.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/8134810549e3508dc70f5e3d97f1dd85.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam to gif (http://picasion.com/)


And now here's Pamps.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/0de4681aabfbc8fd78c01217a2bbd16a.gif (http://picasion.com/)gif webcam (http://picasion.com/)

From the initial shift at the start of his downswing, Virge now just turns around a vertical axis in a horizontal circle. Like this.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/2e7e2c53e046e71246bce0284e0bad32.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam gif (http://picasion.com/)

Pamps on the otherhand rotates on an axis more like this.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/50fbf2e7ccac5b529a97d235f50424e4.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam to gif (http://picasion.com/)

If there was a ground force measuring device, it would record a sharp spike under Pampling's left foot just before impact as his left leg goes from flexed to straight. The left foot is pushing the ground DOWN (which produces an UPWARD ground reaction force) and the left foot is also exerting a counterclockwise force on the ground (which produces a clockwise ground force, helping the left leg to internally rotate through impact).

Virge does produce some ground reaction force with his left foot but nowhere near as much. His left leg stays bent rather than extending through impact indicating that he is not pushing DOWN on the ground with his left foot through impact.

Look at Virge's left shoulder through impact and look at Pampling's left shoulder. Virges left shoulder goes more AROUND and BEHIND him. Pampling's left shoulder moves UP and AWAY FROM THE TARGET. I've tried to show this with the red arrow in the above animation.

Look how Virge's spine tilt (ie spine angle leaning away from the target) remains the same (actually loses the spine tilt slightly). Look how Pampling's spine tilt INCREASES through impact.

Everying I said above is exaggerated in Jamie Sadlowski's swing.

http://i.picasion.com/pic47/ca0adec16665a235f95c02e6b340733c.gif (http://picasion.com/)webcam gif (http://picasion.com/)

In summary, Virge has a good swing and I have exaggerated some of his faults to highlight the differences between his swing and Pampling's swing. If he can make some of the more dynamic moves I've outlined above and learn to use his body and ground forces more effectively, I think his swing will be more powerful and efficient.

Enjoy ... ;)

[Jarro]

Nice work Jono 8)

[sol381]

The above 2 gifs show virge and pamps almost identical at the start of the downswing. Great lag! maybe virge has a little more weight on the left foot at impact and through the swing. Swing looks powerful yet compact tho. Very nice ..I'll leave the golf analysis to more educated teachers than me. Just really wanted to say what a good job jono did here. Very detailed and I'm sure time consuming. Good stuff mate.

[virge666]

Bloody nice work John . . . I am off to the range to get the left shoulder going up.

[Peppas]

Welcome to my last 2 weeks with Jono!

[razaar]

Welcome to my last 2 weeks with Jono!
Unwinding the right thigh doesn't work unless the player has made a couple of key moves. I trust Jono told you what they are.:)

[Peppas]

Unwinding the right thigh doesn't work unless the player has made a couple of key moves. I trust Jono told you what they are.:)

I hope so too!

[Jono]

The above 2 gifs show virge and pamps almost identical at the start of the downswing. Great lag! maybe virge has a little more weight on the left foot at impact and through the swing. Swing looks powerful yet compact tho. Very nice ..I'll leave the golf analysis to more educated teachers than me. Just really wanted to say what a good job jono did here. Very detailed and I'm sure time consuming. Good stuff mate.

You are looking at what most people look at and ignoring the rest. Left arm to shaft angle doesn't mean anything at the start of the downswing. Many hackers can achieve great "lag" at the start of the downswing. It's how far into the downswing you can sustain it. And you can't sustain it unless your body moves more dynamically.

Look at the following picture. Now can you tell the difference?

14924

Virge's body has already fired. He's lost a lot of his lag. all he can do from here is either drag the club through impact and rotate his body.

Look at pamps. His body hasn't fired yet. His left foot is now pushing hard into the ground and starting a dynamic release procedure.

Don't get me wrong. Virge's swing is VERY good. He does many things right. I've seen him at the range and he flushes the ball. However, he is a student of the golf swing as I am and I'm sure he's looking to improve all the time. That's why I've highlighted what he doesn't do right.

[sol381]

i understand that... i didn't mean the 2 gifs of each player i meant virge and pamps individual gifs .. i wasn't ignoring the rest i just didnt see it.. i didn't see the impact in the shot but as i was trying to convey the first part looks good.. just trying to hold that lag a bit longer is the hard part.. a picture paints a 1000 words and id be damned if i could do what you've done here.. good luck with working your swing out too virge. looks like it very close.

[Jono]

i understand that... i didn't mean the 2 gifs of each player i meant virge and pamps individual gifs .. i wasn't ignoring the rest i just didnt see it.. i didn't see the impact in the shot but as i was trying to convey the first part looks good.. just trying to hold that lag a bit longer is the hard part.. a picture paints a 1000 words and id be damned if i could do what you've done here.. good luck with working your swing out too virge. looks like it very close.

But that's just it. You can't just HOLD a lag. It has to happen dynamically. It is the incorrect body movements at the start of the downswing, as small and insignificant as they seem, that lead to early release.

[sol381]

i think ill just keep quiet now

[Jono]

Mate, it's probably just a misunderstanding.

:smt109

[Captain Nemo]

Virge,

In my stash of golfing literature, I have a paper called Ground reaction forces and torques of professional and amateur golfers.

In it is a graph showing the ground forces of both feet at various stages of the golf swing. If I showed you this graph, you would "get it" straight away.

I'll photocopy it and bring it to the long reef game. If you have some time after the game, I'll show it to you and explain the concepts.

Jesus, this is getting very technical now!
Jono, please dont bring a video camera, i dont want to know/see anything re my swing!:smt087

[Jono]

Jesus, this is getting very technical now!
Jono, please dont bring a video camera, i dont want to know/see anything re my swing!:smt087

No sidesaddle putter. Check.

No camera. Check.

Anything else you don't want me to bring? :roll:

[Captain Nemo]

Just bring your A game!:lol:

[virge666]

But that's just it. You can't just HOLD a lag. It has to happen dynamically. It is the incorrect body movements at the start of the downswing, as small and insignificant as they seem, that lead to early release.

That is a great quote mate - couldn't agree more.

You don't hold lag - you create an angle and then use your body to hold that angle.

Love your work !

[virge666]

Ok Lads, I am doing something stupid. I am switching my swing method to Sean Foley. Yep - almost a decade of Right Sided golf, i am going to a weird sort of hybrid of Stack and Tilt.

Why I hear you ask . . . a couple of reasons.

1. I am struggling through impact. A lot. That hip and leg slide I have is killing me. I rely too much on timing and it is pissing me off no end.
2. Foley's method advocates a lateral move on the down swing. Whilst mine is still excessive in any swing pattern - with Foley's method - it doesn't kill me.
3. I have made a few changes to my swing over the last two months and I am really caught inbetween and more than a little screwed up. I seem to be playing golf swing and not playing golf... I was taking forever to get confortable over the ball the last couple of weeks and again - this will not do.
4. I am going to the range - looking for a golf swing, finding one, and then spending the next hour trying to groove it. I then get to the golf course and cant hit a bloody thing. I have the Foley motion down to a degree, so logic says I should only have the one swing thought as opposed to the 7 or 8 I have now . . . things should start to settle down.
5. I only watch TV golf when Tiger is playing - so I know his swing pretty well - but the player's swing I want to copy is Hunter Mahan. The myriad of slow mo and analysis on Tigers swing is also a benefit.

So thats it . . . I will give it three months and if I cannot get my greens in reg stat back up to somewhere around 12-13, I will give it away.

Attached is today's video from the range - the hip slide is there and still pretty bad - but all it seems to do is lose a little distance and hit it a bit "blocky". It is somewhere to start.

Will be doing a lot of downhill work and pivot drills tomorrow - but the flight is good.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW_PEVFLvcE

[Golfnut]

So thats it . . . I will give it three months and if I cannot get my greens in reg stat back up to somewhere around 12-13, I will give it away.



12-13% or in total :shock:???

[adlo]

Think about what you have just said.

[Golfnut]

I'd be happy with 12-13% GIRs atm Adlo.

[adlo]

Virge is a tidy golfer 'nut.

[Golfnut]

Ya think! Though 12-13 GIR's is just a touch better than tidy in my book.

(Post #483 was my poor attempt at humour, but I'm blaming the rum tonight.)

[edhannan]

A bit off the current topic, but Virge, I’m wondering…

Your advice to Kristian (Sept/09) was: “Get your right elbow in front of your right hip on the downswing.”
In this thread (March/10, you say (re GE/one-plane/body release swings), “The right elbow is BEHIND the right hip...VERY VERY important that !!"

What are the typical results if a golfer mixes those up? That is, a GE swinger with the elbow in front, or a 2-plane swinger with the elbow behind the rear hip.

[dan]

You do seem to work hard on your swing, yet it never looks any different to me.

[virge666]

A bit off the current topic, but Virge, I’m wondering…

Your advice to Kristian (Sept/09) was: “Get your right elbow in front of your right hip on the downswing.”
In this thread (March/10, you say (re GE/one-plane/body release swings), “The right elbow is BEHIND the right hip...VERY VERY important that !!"

What are the typical results if a golfer mixes those up? That is, a GE swinger with the elbow in front, or a 2-plane swinger with the elbow behind the rear hip.

Easy answer - how Kristian creates power, he has no shape on his backswing... so to create an angle to get to the ball he fires his right hip out towards the ball, leaving his right arm behind. This is what gives him the "slouched" look through impact and also the move underneath with a visciously closing clubface.

Getting the arms in front of him on the downswing will get the right hip clearing towards his left hip instead and thus providing a straighter and steeper path into the ball.

With me - it is different. The huge leg slide I have needs me to have the elbow behind my hips, otherwise I will hook the shit out of it.

Comes down to the direction the hips work dictates how the arms will move around the body . . . Quite simply, I have a lot of leg movement and Kristian doesn't . . . so you match it up.

[virge666]

You do seem to work hard on your swing, yet it never looks any different to me.

Look at where my arms are half way down and also shoulder high on the follow through.

The old swing is very narrow, and that is what I intend to fix and hope that the other bits like the legs and hips will steady up a bit.

[edhannan]

"Getting the arms in front of him on the downswing will get the right hip clearing towards his left hip instead and thus providing a straighter and steeper path into the ball."

Yes, I see. And I see the soundness of your instructional strategy. Much easier for him to focus on a change to the arms rather than the hips. But the change in the arms should improve the hip movement. Good going!

[virge666]

I have been looking over swings for the last 2 months while nursing a hangover of biblical proportions. Have noticed something about my good swings on the range and the new swing for the last week.

New Swing.
Finishes Higher, a lot higher. I finish more off my right foot now too.
Way more shoulder turn and much steeper too.
Hips stay closed a bit longer on the downswing.
Way less slide into impact - no idea why, it just does. Might be the closed hips . . .
Right side no longer collapses - which I guess is due to less slide.

Keys.
Turn with back to target. 60% of my lower body weight on my left side. No weight shift at all to the right.
Open the chest on the backswing. Right hip back more.
Maintain the lag angle on the down swing to the right hip and then use the rotation to release the clubhead.

In otherwords, setup left, stay left and then go more left.

Wonder if i can take it to the course. Wednesday is the first game.

[virge666]

Went and hit 100 balls last night and I am hitting everything right. Like 15m right and that was with 8iron.

Bits of both swings int here... the downward pivot is wrong and the load from the top is wrong... but I think my shoes are OK.

Today is not going to be fun.


http://youtu.be/bJ2IwjgfzJ8

[3oneday]

The bent left arm is surely a power drain ?

[virge666]

The bent left arm is surely a power drain ?

yeah - i think so... no idea how to stop it though.

Been like that for years... not as bad as it normally is in that vid, but still...

[dan]

How many lessons have you had and from how many different pro's?

[3oneday]

yeah - i think so... no idea how to stop it though.

Been like that for years... not as bad as it normally is in that vid, but still...trek out to Dunheved for a hit one day, we think about beer not swings :)

[virge666]

How many lessons have you had and from how many different pro's?

Probably 5 pro's in all - about 50-60 lessons over 20 years or so.


trek out to Dunheved for a hit one day, we think about beer not swings :)

Sounds like a plan !

[idgolfguy]

The bent left arm is surely a power drain ?Surely it shouldn't matter as it extends on the downswings and into impact. Isn't that a stylistic attribute.Some can keep the arm straight and others can't.

[Jono]

That's not the 1st hole at Bayview, is it?