Matt's on to something here

[macjackass]

Had the pleasure of meeting and having a hit with Matt (3 jab) yesterday. I have seen the error of my ways and am looking to get some shovels and abandoning the beloved x-forged. Anyone got any thoughts on some chunky-ish forgings (thinking some of the older cobras)? If some thick top line graphite shafted macs are good enough for Matt then they're good enough for me.

If any interest in callaway x-forged wth reg black gold 1* flat 4-pw in 9.5/10 nick please pm me.

[markTHEblake]

Anyone got any thoughts on some chunky-ish forgings

very narrow market there i think.

[PeteyD]

Try the Macgregor M685s.

[kpac]

pings usually get the nod dont they?

[Chris32]

I had some Nike Pro Combo OS's, they are forged

I didn't like them, I reckon my 755's are more forgiving

[macjackass]

Thanks Chris, the pro combo os was one I was looking at. Not a fan of the 755 though, the back looks a bit ordinary (I know, you can't see the back when you're hitting it).

[Toolish]

pings usually get the nod dont they?

Aren't all Pings cast?

[kpac]

whoop, didnt see the "forging"

[3oneday]

Epon

[kpac]

Epon

they look nice are they pricey?? or even gettable?

[3oneday]

Anything is gettable... if you want quality forgings you pay what the market thinks they are worth. If you want a bargain I guess you buy Raven ?

[macjackass]

Epon?? Does this mean I'm getting the spider cheaper so I can afford some of those :). Looking at some srixon 701, today at least.

[3oneday]

I don't sell Epon, so the answer would be NO :lol:

[Chris32]

The Pro Combos are ugly from the top, you can see the sole of the 3 and 4 iron at address. I have grown to like the look of the 755's.

I've been down this path about 6 months ago and have gone back to normal sized heads and regular flex shafts.

In that time I played Ping Eye 2+'s and Nike Pro Combo OS. They both had the same shafts, TX-90's stiff.
I tried reg TX-90's in the Pings as well as PX 5.5's

Out of pure desperation, I tried my old Top Flite Tours. They had DG R400's in them, and I hit them great, like I used too!

The shafts are the key in my opinion, my 755's have DG R300's. I had PX 5.5's in my old 690.cb's, and S300's in them before that, the R flex shafts are more forgiving in my opinion.

Although all the fitting charts I have read suggest I should be playing S or X flex (last time I checked my average driver SS was 108mph) shafts, I find the reg shafts in my irons to be the source of forgiveness in my clubs.

I hit some 755's with S300's, pretty much identical in terms of specs and didn't find them anywhere near as forgiving

Although you had R flex in your X-Forged, all the Black Gold shafts I have hit played stiffer than normal DG R300.

The X-Forged head isn't that forgiving either, I have hit them a few times.

My advice would be to try some mid-size cavity heads with DG R300's in them. I guarantee you'll end up ditching the chunky/forgiving club idea in a few months time.

Thats what happend to me anyway

[mikezone13]

Try the Macgregor M685s.

Chunky top line they are not, but a very very good club.

[kwantfm]

they look nice are they pricey?? or even gettable?

kpac,

Epon are definitely "gettable"... you can pm me...

[BrisVegas]

704CB or 804CB. Cheap as chips in either midsize or oversize. Forged, but forgiving.

[braddles]

Titleist AP2s are pretty forgiving (more than my X-Forged) and look good at address.

[Courty]

What Dion said, or a set of APs if you have the money.

[miro]

MAck,

I have been using the Fusion irons from Callaway for three years now and would (without sounding like a complete tosser) think that I am one of the better players on ozgolf. Not forged but so packed full of cally technology that they feel simply better than any forged club I had previously owned. Smaller heads than most callys and still very forgiving versus the x forged. Only down side is that they are bloody expensive even second hand.

[jaybam]

Was going to say to you why dont you look at the x 20s or even a set of second hand x 18s if you like callaway. I just sold my callaway x 18s on here for 400 and they are a great iron but i wanted the opposite to you and have gone back to a smaller forged head :)

[Webster]

no difference between cast and forged.

[Moe Norman]

yes there is.

Forged irons are forged, and cast irons are cast. Thats the difference

[markTHEblake]

and forged are as soft as butter.

[3oneday]

It was only a matter of time.

[BrisVegas]

What Dion said....

:o:smt023

[Matt 3 Jab]

Macjack, i actually hit some mates Ping S58's yesterday arvo, they looked good but wow, couldnt hit them anywhere near my irons in terms of control and forgivness. Go the X-18's or 20's id say, or the Mac 685's. Cant wait to put steel in mine. Got my driver too, now to shoot the lights out!

[Matt 3 Jab]

If any interest in callaway x-forged wth reg black gold 1* flat 4-pw in 9.5/10 nick please pm me.
i saw these yesterday, even i want them, they are in such good condition and feel great!

[macjackass]

Matt, you're only a spider away from shooting the lights out.

[haysey]

704CB or 804CB. Cheap as chips in either midsize or oversize. Forged, but forgiving.

I have a set of 704CBs 2 iron through gap wedge that i'm looking to get rid of.

[3oneday]

I have a set of 704CBs 2 iron through gap wedge that i'm looking to get rid of.yes, but are they as cheap as chips ? ;)

:lol:

[haysey]

yes, but are they as cheap as chips ? ;)

:lol:

Currently hiding them in a cupboard, with the new acquisitions under headcovers.

How about cheap as 2 packets of chips8-)

[Grunt]

What sort of chips are we talking about here? Crisps or deep fried ones.
Am I looking at paying $1.80 or $3?

[haysey]

What sort of chips are we talking about here? Crisps or deep fried ones.
Am I looking at paying $1.80 or $3?

mmm deep fried goodness:mrgreen:

[BrisVegas]

my "chips" were $400 and worth every penny.

[haysey]

my "chips" were $400 and worth every penny.

Brisvegas, What would a fair price be for a reasonable condition set of 704s???

Given I live in Cairns and postage is probably a little on the expensive side

[BrisVegas]

given how cheap it is to get them in from the states now, i'd say around $300??? I paid $400 for mine (ex poidda, ex rick3003) less than a year ago and was happy to pay that as they were in good nik and were to my specs.

I guess check completed listings on 3balls etc and add A$50 postage to get em to oz.... OR ask 3oneday.

just checked completed listings and they go for between US$150-230 & A$260-400 + shipping etc...

[haysey]

given how cheap it is to get them in from the states now, i'd say around $300??? I paid $400 for mine (ex poidda, ex rick3003) less than a year ago and was happy to pay that as they were in good nik and were to my specs.
I guess check completed listings on 3balls etc and add A$50 postage to get em to oz.... OR ask 3oneday.


Cool, thanks mate.

Will probably end up doing cheaper than that anyway because i can't keep hiding them. ( I really should ban myself from going anywhere near Drummond Golf)

Is there anywhere I can find an honest way of rating a golf clubs condition??

[BrisVegas]

no. :lol: quality digital photos are the only reliable measure.

[haysey]

Fair enough, so all I need to do is figure out how to insert pictures in a post :smt087

Thanks for your help Brisvegas.

[Captain Nemo]

I did the same thing late last year.
Single figure handicap, sold my Titleist 762's got some brand new PING Zing 2's zz65 shafts (dont ask me how i got them new)!
They are old school but work a treat!

[Toolish]

Hit the AP2 last night at the range...that may suit your needs, not super chunky, but getting there for a Titleist...although not sure the price would be right!

[3oneday]

Yeah, still $900USD and damned hard to get ! They ran out of heads and are backordered for weeks (and weeks)

[macjackass]

Anyone hit either of the new srixons (701)? Saw them at powergolf and they look like a longer blade length and thicker top line than my x-forged.

[3oneday]

Rick3003 was wetting himself about these recently, dunno whether he ever hit them though.

[rick3003]

Rick3003 was wetting himself about these recently, dunno whether he ever hit them though.
Mate they are a great stick. The tour models have a nice milled face and they are endo forged. I actually hit a mates and I could play these in a heartbeat.

[TheNuclearOne]

Haven't hit em but the Wishon 560's get brilliant reviews.

[markTHEblake]

Golfsmith have a chunky forged head that is on Sale (superceded product) for $8ph
http://www.golfsmith.com/products/G2460

[virge666]

Ping I-10

Who cares about forging vs cast - it don't mean a thing. One lump of metal is bashed into shape, the other is mould and then bashed into shape...

I am guessing if you are leaving XForged - you won't be able to tell the difference anyway, but don't feel bad, almost every pro can't feel the difference either.

[3oneday]

Hey, I have some I-10 arriving Monday for you ;)

:lol:

[macjackass]

Virge, you're entitled to your opinion regarding cast v forged but no one asked for it so keep it to yourself.

[virge666]

Virge, you're entitled to your opinion regarding cast v forged but no one asked for it so keep it to yourself.


Not my opinion mate - been done and tested numerous times... and no one can tell the difference. Roger Maltby, Tom Wishon, Golf Lab in California, Callaway and Taylor Made... a few of the Japanese makers... all these guys have done the testing and found that because the process of casting is so good now, no one can tell the difference.

We have this argument so many times on forums. The problem is the size of the club. People instantly associate Forged - with smaller cavities and blades and cast to over size and perimeter weighted.

Nowadays - we have forged larges cavities like Hogan Apex Edge and cast everything from tiny blades to shovels. The only real advantage of forged is the ability for change lie and loft on a forged club is easier as the metal is less brittle.

But back to the question . . . go and try some clubs. Cavities and perimeter weighted clubs go higher and higher the more you move the centre of gravity back.

Forged vs. Cast should not be an issue and it severely limits your choices based on a fallacy. The last thing you should be doing is buying 21st century technology with ideas and bias' based in the 80's. Think of it as not buying the brand new Porsche 911 turbo because the 1982 model had a touch of oversteer.

Enjoy

[virge666]

Hey, I have some I-10 arriving Monday for you ;)

:lol:

Awesome - they are great clubs... just get rid of those stupid lite high launch shafts in them...

New or Used ? and how much.

[3oneday]

Apparently 9/10, but orange dot and they have WRX installed PX 6.0 and cool matching orange and black grips. PM or ring me if still interested.

[markTHEblake]

[COLOR=black]Not my opinion mate

I think he meant that he already knows all that, but he still wants forged anyway.

[Peter]

http://www.ozgolf.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8903

[macjackass]

If you can't tell the difference between the two then I feel for you.

[markTHEblake]

Thanks Peter. Knowing and Believing is not the same thing.

Let the boy want forged irons, the argument is for the other thread :-) Shame it stopped, I hadn't finished yet.

[virge666]

I think he meant that he already knows all that, but he still wants forged anyway.

Pity that - but each to their own.

Removing cast clubs from the choice is like saying I want a sports car but nothing German or Italian . . . You just kill most of your choices.

It does leave you the DB9 and the Ascari though !

[markTHEblake]

Too late - we covered that first page.

[virge666]

If you can't tell the difference between the two then I feel for you.



I have been in this industry now for over a decade and a club fitter for most of that. And you are dead set kidding yourself if you reckon you can tell the difference. In fact, I am so bloody sure of myself. I am willing to put a bet on it.

I have five 6-irons blades here of which two are forged and three are cast. I will front up what ever cash bet you like to see if you can tell the two forged clubs by hitting them. This offer is open to anyone who wants to give me money.

I have done this test with people hundreds of times over the years and in total 6 people have got it right. I got the idea from a Melbourne club fitter called Paul Jacobs who use to do the exact same thing in the mid-nineties with Wilson clubs to show how good their casting process was.

In the old days - when the casting process was a bit dodgey, you use to get different weightings around the mould of the club, you would also get differing thickness on the face of the cast club and this would lead to inconsistancies at contact. So people played a forged club to get a consistant hit. Nowadays - you will see cast clubs in all tours all over the world. Callaway X-14 tours and Taylor LT2 series really showed how good cast clubs could be. Ping don't make forged clubs and never have.

The same thing goes for graphite shafts, in the old days - the shafts were awful, you could never hit them the same distance and the weights varied all over the place. Nowaday with different construction, you can play graphite in anything you want and not have a problem. (unless it says Aldila on it.. but that is another story)

But, if you go for Forged Cav, Hogan Edge and Edge Pro, Srixon use to do a Forged Cav and the 701 get good reports, but it is a mile offset, Orig Taylormade LT, and pretty much most of the Titleist range up to 755's are all forged. Titty 862's I think are forged and I got good reports from customers on them

MP60, 30 and 67 by Mizuno but they are a small cav, I think Callaway had a forged cav that they built when they bought Hogan, but I think it lasted about 3 months before they withdrew it.

Mac did a cheap forged progression set that I think you could land here for less than $250 form the USA. Wishon do a forged cav set for around $100 a club also.

But my pick for a good move from butter knifes to a bigger set are the Hogan Apex Edge, Srixon 701 Tour, Ping I-10 and TM LT2. (The Hogan's and LT2's would cost nothing also on eBay)

last bit of advice - DO NOT put Project X in Larger Cav's. Project X are designed to take spin off the ball and lower the flight while the clubhead is designed to do the exact opposite. They fight each other and you end up just losing the flight altogether. You get highish launch and low spin which is just great for a driver but awful for irons when you don't have a 7 iron moving at 100mph. Match this to a low spin ball like a ProV1x and you are losing ground and ball flight in all areas. You may as well just kick the ball at the green.

Enjoy

PS: Taylormade 320's are another option.

[macjackass]

Let me ask you this. What is the objective of say Taylormade and Callaway? Is it to make the best clubs, no, it is a business and the bottom line is they are there to make as much money as possible. End of story. Which club is cheaper for them to make? Answer, a cast club. So using a manufacturer of clubs as who has done the testing is just stupid. Are you telling me they don't have a vested interest? Are you that gullible?

I have no problem with people saying they can't tell the difference, I can and will not be told by anyone what I can and cannot feel. So Jack, virge and marktheblake keep your condescending comments.

[markTHEblake]

Is it to make the best clubs, no, it is a business and the bottom line is they are there to make as much money as possible

Exactly!


Which club is cheaper for them to make?.

Right on! costs them probably $5 for the cast and $10 for the forged - if that.

Business doesn't sell what the market needs, they sell what the market wants. KFC doesnt sell greasy chicken cos its healthy!

The golfing public mostly believes forged are better, that is an undeniable fact. So they make forged clubs, add a premium that they know the market will pay, and they make money.

The best golfers don't demand forged irons. They demand the best irons, it just so happens that its as the legacy of the industry marketing that the quality clubheads are forged in most cases.


I can and will not be told by anyone what I can and cannot feel.

I know you can feel the difference, but as said many times over, it was not the hardness of the clubhead that you felt.


So Jack, virge and marktheblake keep your condescending comments.

Oh now I am really upset, no way am I as condescending as jack :smt013

[virge666]

Answer, a cast club. So using a manufacturer of clubs as who has done the testing is just stupid. Are you telling me they don't have a vested interest? Are you that gullible?


They all make forged and cast clubs . . . Most of the Jap brands only sell forged. How is that an arguement ?



I can and will not be told by anyone what I can and cannot feel.


No you cannot, sorry. Cause it is not feel. You have a lump of metal hitting a soft plastic and rubber ball. The clubhead never deforms from either a cast or forged club, therefore you cannot FEEL anything.

There is a way to tell, and of the professionals who I did this test with, Peter O'Malley was the only one to work it out. And it had nothing to do with feel or feedback.



So Jack, virge and marktheblake keep your condescending comments.

I offered you a chance to earn cash with your skill, not to mention a huge selection of forged cav's to choose from. You can live in whatever world of delusion you choose to with regards to forged and cast, it's your life.

BTW: I would still pick the I-10's or Lt2's. Try Dynamic Gold lites in them too.

[markTHEblake]

Peter O'Malley was the only one to work it out. And it had nothing to do with feel or feedback.

Actually I bet $1000 I could tell the difference too

[virge666]

Actually I bet $1000 I could tell the difference too

Cool - let's see if there is another way . . .

I have POM's way - what is yours... ?

[Peter]

Bash them into each other (or another hard object) a few times - the one that looks the best at the end of this abuse is cast.

[markTHEblake]

Cool - let's see if there is another way . . .

I have POM's way - what is yours... ?

He bit them didnt he.

Stainless Steel Hammer. I reckon should be able to feel the difference in the stiffness of the collision as well as the visible evidence, but I would only bet a beer on that.

Could also hit balls off the cart part, or what Pete said, numerous options.

[3oneday]

This sold yet ?

[virge666]

He bit them didnt he.

Stainless Steel Hammer. I reckon should be able to feel the difference in the stiffness of the collision as well as the visible evidence, but I would only bet a beer on that.

Could also hit balls off the cart part, or what Pete said, numerous options.

Can't do that.

You actually have to hit balls. It is easy to tell forged vs cast with other tools... the challenge is to do it while hitting balls.

[3oneday]

the challenge is to do it while hitting balls.
having actually read what you wrote (for a change) I didn't think this was in doubt, will he still put up $1,000 to actually hit balls ?

[virge666]

Yo . . . Dave Mason has a set of Taylormade LT forged for $350.

Offer him $300 -they are worth that.

Next problem.

[Matt 3 Jab]

anyway, back to the topic, i now am getting mizzy combo's so hopefully best of both worlds.

Who knows................

[macjackass]

Virge, at the end of the day you can believe whatever your told. I honestly do not care. All I know is that I'll take my forgings and beat you with your cast clubs any place any time.

[Jarro]

Give him a chance to sort out Jono's swing first macjackass, that should keep him busy for a little while yet ;)

I just love these forged vs cast debates :mrgreen:

[jaybam]

Got a bit too technical for me jarro so just gave up reading it lol :)

[Jarro]

Got a bit too technical for me jarro so just gave up reading it lol :)

Yep, there are certainly a lot of big-brains floating around here :roll:

I say play whatever you damn well like !

As long as you like it of course ;)

[virge666]

Virge, at the end of the day you can believe whatever your told. I honestly do not care. All I know is that I'll take my forgings and beat you with your cast clubs any place any time.

Great comeback . . . you must have been thinking about that one for a while.

I am always up for a grudge match. but I don't play cast clubs, I play Mizzy Mp60's... sorry.

So when and where ? We can do the Cast vs Forged ball test !

[mikezone13]

Pity that - but each to their own.

Removing cast clubs from the choice is like saying I want a sports car but nothing German or Italian . . . You just kill most of your choices.

It does leave you the DB9 and the Ascari though !

DBS for me please... :)

I would assume assume that most of the "feel" we associate with a particular club is actually the shaft, grip, ball and clubhead combination (and the tempearature of our hands) not just one of those that gives us feedback/feel.

But what would I know.

[virge666]

Yep, there are certainly a lot of big-brains floating around here :roll:

I say play whatever you damn well like !

As long as you like it of course ;)

Oh come on ya big girls... it was very un-technical

You have a lump of metal on the end of a stick, and this goose is trying to say he can tell how the lump of metal is made, when you hit a soft rubber ball with it - even when people who play the game for a living can't tell the difference.

It wasn't like describing a reverse pivot.

And I was a nice guy - gave him like 15 different choices of clubs to choose from... didn't get abusive or anything. All he came back with was.. "Well I'll kick your arse on a golf course cause I know about stuff"

I will even play in cast clubs if it makes him feel better. Hey "3" you still got those I-10's ? What do you want for them ?

:smt060 :smt060 :smt060

[Matt 3 Jab]

The point is, if you wanna play forged, play them, if YOU can feel the difference, placebo or not, thats you to choose, there is no pics on the score card and what ever people want to think they can, Macjac is a good bloke who loves talking equipment, if he wants to play forged, im 100% behind him, if virg wants to play cast or forged, then 100% behind him to. Lets just not become like the BSG wankers who hit XXX flex 400 metre bombs every hole and play off +4 and would challange tiger if they could move their arses off their chairs behind their shit desk jobs!

[virge666]

Fair enough . . . I'm done.

I have to get back to Jono's pivot stuff anyway.

We didn't even get into different kinds of forging. You can have Hammer, Form, Face and more. There are even a few others that I think some of the manufacturers PR departments made up after powdering their noses.

Mizuno and Muira did some videos of the actuall forging process - you may see them on UTube. It showed the whole process from a small cylinder of steel through to the chroming process - very cool if you are into that kind of stuff. The size of the machine and the amount of pressure they use is amazing.

What Handicap is Mac off - if we are close . . . we could have a forged vs cast grudge match or something. I will retire the Mizunos and borrow some LT2's or something.

Righto - back to shoulders. . .

[jaybam]

:smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015

[Matt 3 Jab]

anyway virg, you'll turn in your grave when we play wednesday.

I have a 120 ish MPH driver speed and at the moment im using reg graphite shafts with good results, and last few rounds been using the 275cc 975D lol

its all in the swing

[markTHEblake]

You actually have to hit balls. It is easy to tell forged vs cast with other tools... the challenge is to do it while hitting balls.

How about we use 1.68 diameter stainless steel balls then?

I am a pretty sensitive guy, but gee, you would have to have tuning forks for fingers to detect a 0.1% difference :lol:

Actually this reminds me of a bet that a guy made that his tungsten spikes on his Niblicks would never wear out. He lost the bet in 10 seconds, which is about the time it took for the bloke to get one of the shoes onto the bench grinder and flatten one of the spikes.

[virge666]

anyway virg, you'll turn in your grave when we play wednesday.

its all in the swing

Awesome - can't wait to see that. The 975 will be a flash back and a half. I am guessing a pretty heavy shaft in regular would flatten it out nicely.

I just spent 2 days with Donnie up at the Glades, so I am trying to get some time in to let some of the changes sink in. I played on Saturday for 8 over the front and 1 under the back.

I feel like a total spastic. :)

Mark - check your PM - it has POM's way of finding cast clubs.

[3oneday]

I will even play in cast clubs if it makes him feel better. Hey "3" you still got those I-10's ? What do you want for them ?sorry, opened them tonite, they gave me a woody... ask me next week :lol:

[virge666]

sorry, opened them tonite, they gave me a woody... ask me next week :lol:


Your a sick puppy 3.

A lot of our Juniors are using them and I have had a hit of a few different sets. They have great forgivness - I can trap these irons quite well to flatten the ball flight and when gripping down on the clubs can move the ball both ways.

I think the shafts are important as they can feel quite wooden with the wrong swing type. You definitley need soft tips and low kickpoints if teh hands are behind the ball at impact.

Also they never wear !!

I am a big fan !

[talbo]

Virge, tell us all how PO'M worked it out?

[virge666]

But then I lose my secret . . . and the chance to win some cash off punters . . .

[talbo]

Then can you PM me how?

[virge666]

Tell you what . . . when you come to an OzGolf day - I will tell you then.

:)

[talbo]

Will there be one in Adelaide?

[virge666]

Hope so... if not - see you in QLD later in the year.

[markTHEblake]

I am more interested in how to spin wedges, why don't you start a thread on that Virge?
and i am sure cast spins more.

[virge666]

Ok Then . . . From what distance ?

[markTHEblake]

the hard ones, 0 to 50

[virge666]

No problem - need a video camera though - I butchered mine up in QLD last week.

Easy thing to do though.

[3oneday]

What, butcher a camera ?