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Grunt
10th April 2008, 04:01 PM
Heard something very interesting whilst at Ashlar today. Stonecutters Ridge have put a deal to the Ashlar Golf Club. Move your club to our course and it is yours, just give us your course for us to turn into houses.

Amanda & Brad did you know of this happening?

Members were all for the deal, they gain big time and the club gets a grade 1 course. The club is not trading well at all. I heard that if the deal does not go through course maint funds will have to be cut by 50%. It is treading water holding a bag of bricks at the moment.

amanda
10th April 2008, 04:09 PM
Hi Grant - I had not heard this at all!

The biggest issue was always going to be getting members - and while the original plan was for a premium private exclusive course - I think mgmt have shifted to more of a public model - making money on volume (which makes sense in the area).

I will make some enquires and give you more info if I get some.

I suppose what we don't want is the same situation we had at New Brighton - a group of golfers on the Board of Directors who don't have modern ideas and sub-standard club management. We were looking forward to a decent level of service from a professional mgmt company like Troon or similar.

Grunt
10th April 2008, 04:14 PM
The Ashlar GM said that they are now surveying the Ashlar course to see how many blocks they can get on the course, talk was 500 new homes. Also a figure of $30 million was mentioned.

Grunt
10th April 2008, 05:44 PM
Forgot to add I like the deal if I still will have reciprocal rights there ;).

3oneday
10th April 2008, 05:51 PM
The older members are resisting at this stage ;) my neighbour is a member there.

Grunt
10th April 2008, 05:57 PM
Some older guy's I met today were all for it, needs a 75% vote Yes though to get through. Will be tough.

3oneday
10th April 2008, 05:58 PM
Gotta get 75% of members to attend the meeting first ;)

Grunt
10th April 2008, 06:01 PM
Is 75% of the vote, they are hoping for 250 to attend.

3oneday
10th April 2008, 06:46 PM
Really, seems unlikely that it would be that simple. It's s hithouse course anyway, be better flattened :lol:

Andrew
10th April 2008, 08:48 PM
I assume they would only need 75% of a quorum.

Grunt
10th April 2008, 08:50 PM
Yes that is what I meant Andrew, seems it may be close thing with the age of the membership at Ashlar and the resistance to change of people in general.

AndyP
10th April 2008, 09:00 PM
If Ashlar takes over Stonecutters, will Homers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Great) be allowed as members?

Grunt
10th April 2008, 09:22 PM
If Ashlar takes over Stonecutters, will Homers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Great) be allowed as members?

Why not?

mikezone13
10th April 2008, 09:58 PM
I'd be sad to see Ashlar go, I have always been very impressed each time I've played it, and most recently (on a pennents day) the greeens were some of the fastest and truest I've ever played on (except the 6th or 7th that looked dead).

Add to the fact that it has been using recycled or bore water for years whcih leaves it always lush makes it a great gem in Western Sydney.

Hooker
11th April 2008, 08:48 PM
Is 75% of the vote, they are hoping for 250 to attend.
Was a member at Wallacia a few years ago when they got more than 300 members and more than 75% of the vote to let Panthers take over.

Similar situation, the old members didn't like it but it got through.

goughy
12th April 2008, 07:03 AM
If Ashlar takes over Stonecutters, will Homers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Great) be allowed as members?


Why not?

Only if he plays naked and drags his clubs behind him attached to a chain around his neck!

Scottt
14th April 2008, 09:25 AM
Was a member at Wallacia a few years ago when they got more than 300 members and more than 75% of the vote to let Panthers take over.

Similar situation, the old members didn't like it but it got through.

except that Wallacia's course is better off for it. Ashlar will become housing...

Grunt
14th April 2008, 09:59 AM
Don't speak so soon.
Has it (Wallacia) all come to a grinding halt G69?

WeekendHacker
14th April 2008, 10:39 AM
I am a current member at Ashlar. This is looking more and more like moving ahead even though management at Ashlar are still being very silent to its members about how serious this really is. The standard reply is "Its too early to tell and we are currently looking at it". In a letter to the members regarding all of the talk regarding this matter they have listed out the plan of what will be done with member pricing and the management structure etc. This is obviously far further down the track to "we are still looking at it". With golf courses suffering with falling memberships the last year this is really the only option for Ashlar if they want the club to continue in some way shape or form.

Scottt
14th April 2008, 10:41 AM
I see... The new p3 (the third?) is a good hole.

The hole you're about to finish, that's back nine or front nine? Last I was there I recall some work underway on the par four dogleg right that hugs the OOB - the 13th?

Grunt
14th April 2008, 11:07 AM
Will have to go out there for a look soon, was supposed to play there last week but could not get there in time for a hit, comps are walk up starts.

Scottt
14th April 2008, 11:11 AM
Thats the one scott.
But our hole numbering is different.
We built two new par 3's out there, the 3rd and 5th on the master plan...this new par 4 is the 4th.
You walk thru the back of the downhill par 3, behind the pond to some new tees stuck in the corner. The hole was grassed last week and looks great.

right. it goes over the land previously occupied by that uphill par three?

amanda
14th April 2008, 01:29 PM
Our Medallist rep hasn't given us any info - just saying that they are considering all options.

They'd better give us a family lifetime membership if this goes through - I'm sure $30k would buy you a whole lot of years as a current member at Ashlar

Grunt
14th April 2008, 01:30 PM
Members at Ashlar said that the current rates for members would be locked for 3 years if the deal goes ahead.

amanda
14th April 2008, 01:35 PM
Those Ashlar members would be getting a good deal - they sold the land based on each block getting a membership to the GC without having to pay the $30k joining fee.

Plus - the clubhouse & all other facilities (swimming pools, tennis courts, gym, creche) will be to Medallist standards.

Hopefully - whatever factors that have caused Ashlar to be in such bad shape won't be brought to Stonecutters Ridge. Let's hope it's not bad mgmt ...

Hooker
14th April 2008, 03:57 PM
Thats the one scott.
But our hole numbering is different.
We built two new par 3's out there, the 3rd and 5th on the master plan...this new par 4 is the 4th.
You walk thru the back of the downhill par 3, behind the pond to some new tees stuck in the corner. The hole was grassed last week and looks great.

Should be good as it will break up the three par 3's [ 3rd, 4th, 5th] they have at present.

They had a go at building that new 4th using the existing green a few years ago but they had a problem with the greenies or something.

TS
14th April 2008, 04:01 PM
Those Ashlar members would be getting a good deal - they sold the land based on each block getting a membership to the GC without having to pay the $30k joining fee.

Plus - the clubhouse & all other facilities (swimming pools, tennis courts, gym, creche) will be to Medallist standards.

Hopefully - whatever factors that have caused Ashlar to be in such bad shape won't be brought to Stonecutters Ridge. Let's hope it's not bad mgmt ...

May be that is one way to get a cheap membership to Stonecutters Ridge.

Grunt
14th April 2008, 04:07 PM
May be that is one way to get a cheap membership to Stonecutters Ridge.

Great minds think alike TS

WeekendHacker
14th April 2008, 04:10 PM
Those Ashlar members would be getting a good deal - they sold the land based on each block getting a membership to the GC without having to pay the $30k joining fee.

Plus - the clubhouse & all other facilities (swimming pools, tennis courts, gym, creche) will be to Medallist standards.

Hopefully - whatever factors that have caused Ashlar to be in such bad shape won't be brought to Stonecutters Ridge. Let's hope it's not bad mgmt ...

I for one hope it goes through the member vote. Picking up all of these facilities without the need to pay the joining fee will be a very big bonus.

Don't think it is bad management from the present administration I think its too many decsions from the heart and not enough from the head from previos board members and management staff. I hope that the current team can really do good things here.

Scottt
14th April 2008, 06:29 PM
excuse my ignorance, but where the **** is stonecutters ridge?

goughy
14th April 2008, 06:34 PM
Isn't it near moe's tavern, in an abandoned pancake palace or something?

amanda
14th April 2008, 06:36 PM
Scottt - it's the new Greg Norman course being built in north-western Sydney.



I for one hope it goes through the member vote. Picking up all of these facilities without the need to pay the joining fee will be a very big bonus.

Don't think it is bad management from the present administration I think its too many decsions from the heart and not enough from the head from previos board members and management staff. I hope that the current team can really do good things here.

WH - do you know if Ashlar mgmt & Board would go over to Stonecutters as well?

Scottt
14th April 2008, 06:45 PM
the one at Pitt Town?

Grunt
14th April 2008, 06:50 PM
the one at Pitt Town?

Not that far out Scottt, near Schofields

Scottt
14th April 2008, 07:04 PM
Not that far out Scottt, near Schofields

ah, of course. I recall that one. It was announced just before I left the area.

WeekendHacker
15th April 2008, 07:18 AM
Scottt - it's the new Greg Norman course being built in north-western Sydney.


WH - do you know if Ashlar mgmt & Board would go over to Stonecutters as well?

Yes they will be. Apparently Urban Pacific Limited and Medallist Developments do not want to manage the course and its facilities and in choosing to do a swap with Ashlar they will also pick up the management of a current golf course in the same local area. Talk is also on the cards for taking the Ashlar name there as well.

Grunt
15th April 2008, 07:30 AM
Yes they will be. Apparently Urban Pacific Limited and Medallist Developments do not want to manage the course and its facilities and in choosing to do a swap with Ashlar they will also pick up the management of a current golf course in the same local area. Talk is also on the cards for taking the Ashlar name there as well.

Do you know the other course?

WeekendHacker
15th April 2008, 07:34 AM
Do you know the other course?

Other course?

Grunt
15th April 2008, 07:48 AM
Yes they will be. Apparently Urban Pacific Limited and Medallist Developments do not want to manage the course and its facilities and in choosing to do a swap with Ashlar they will also pick up the management of a current golf course in the same local area. Talk is also on the cards for taking the Ashlar name there as well.

This one.

WeekendHacker
15th April 2008, 07:51 AM
This one.

There is no other course.

I meant here that by UPL and Medallist doing a swap for the land Ashlar is on with the new Stonecutters Ridge course and facilities, they also get the management of Ashlar to run the new course.

Grunt
15th April 2008, 07:53 AM
oh ok, I thought it meant there was another course that Medallist had taken over and were passing on to Ashlar as part of the deal.

Scottt
17th April 2008, 11:18 AM
http://www.blacktownadvocate.com.au/article/2008/04/16/2139_news.html

The local paper has a few details this week.

amanda
18th April 2008, 07:49 AM
Thanks Scottt!

Grunt
18th April 2008, 08:03 AM
The comments from the GM seem way different from the impression he gave when he was talking to the members I played with last week. He said that they were surveying the course and working out how many house etc. they could put on the site. There are areas of Ashlar that cant be built on, eg.floodplain, that he said they were going to have to take into account. He seemed very much like it was way more advanced than what the article said.

WeekendHacker
18th April 2008, 09:09 AM
I think this is the issue that us members have at the moment. This is way more advanced that we are being led to believe and it does not help that we all know this but the board are not sharing exactly where it is up to.

Grunt
18th April 2008, 09:29 AM
Got to think that the members of Ashlar will be the winners out of it all, if it gets through. The GM basically said if it did not the club would fail.
A member told me that the deal has the membership fees fixed for a set period for current members but would be different for new members, that creates a problem in itself. To top it off you will have the landowners that thought they were getting an exclusive club. Could create some tension indeed.

amanda
18th April 2008, 09:43 AM
I think this is the issue that us members have at the moment. This is way more advanced that we are being led to believe and it does not help that we all know this but the board are not sharing exactly where it is up to.


We went through a similar process at New Brighton when they were thinking of selling some of the holes (1, 18, 9) to Mirvac for redevelopment. Mirvac came in and surveyed the place & determined lot placement as part of their due diligence to see if it was worthwhile. That plan didn't go ahead as the money offered wasn't enough (from memory) and a lack of information meant that most members were very sceptical about what the board was telling us.

WH - is the club financially viable at the moment?



A member told me that the deal has the membership fees fixed for a set period for current members but would be different for new members, that creates a problem in itself. To top it off you will have the landowners that thought they were getting an exclusive club. Could create some tension indeed.
I'd say tension would be an understatement ;) At current Ashlar rates, we should get 27 yr exepmtion on fees :)

The most likely outcome I see is that once the fixed membership fee period expires and then fees suddenly jump to the public price (I would expect somewhere around the $2000 level) - you'll see a whole lot of members exiting the club for places like Dunheved which are more reasonably priced.

This also depends on how many residents buy a membership to the cluhouse facilities (pool, tennis courts, gym) - if not many take it up - fees will go up even further.

TS
18th April 2008, 09:59 AM
Amanda. The fee would more likely be around $3K, that is what Macquarie Link & Twin Creek are charging.

amanda
18th April 2008, 10:01 AM
Geez - lucky Brad's still on the waiting list at NSWGC :)

WeekendHacker
18th April 2008, 10:09 AM
WH - is the club financially viable at the moment?

The club lost some 80 - 100 members last year. This meant a hit in funds of between $80,000 - $100,000 straight away from membership fees alone. Add to that the $100.00 per head bar tab and what these members may spend in the club and pro shop and you start to see a substantial loss in income. The club is viable at present but if it cannot boost membership in the next 12 months it may be a different story. They are currently offering 18 months for the price of 12 to get new members in but I don't think it is having too much of an impact.

mikezone13
18th April 2008, 10:20 AM
The club lost some 80 - 100 members last year. This meant a hit in funds of between $80,000 - $100,000 straight away from membership fees alone. Add to that the $100.00 per head bar tab and what these members may spend in the club and pro shop and you start to see a substantial loss in income. The club is viable at present but if it cannot boost membership in the next 12 months it may be a different story. They are currently offering 18 months for the price of 12 to get new members in but I don't think it is having too much of an impact.

That's a shame, if I lived out that way (I don't and don't plan to) it would definitely be on top of my list of clubs to join.

I used to work out that way and contemplated joining up just for hits before and after work.

amanda
18th April 2008, 10:24 AM
The club lost some 80 - 100 members last year.
Do you know why they left?

Scottt
18th April 2008, 10:49 AM
What's the fee there? I am heading out to work in Blacktown from May-November and that happens to match up with when my membership at Penrith ends through to when I leave for the UK.

I suppose if the club needs cash they might do me a good rate for 6 months.

amanda
18th April 2008, 10:52 AM
Scottt - $1100 per yr for 7 day membership + $100 bar levy
http://www.ashlargolfclub.com.au/course.php?page=membership

WeekendHacker
18th April 2008, 11:05 AM
What's the fee there? I am heading out to work in Blacktown from May-November and that happens to match up with when my membership at Penrith ends through to when I leave for the UK.

I suppose if the club needs cash they might do me a good rate for 6 months.
Its $1200 per year including a $100.00 bar tab.

WeekendHacker
18th April 2008, 11:07 AM
Do you know why they left?
I think the majority of them were Korean members that went to Cabramatta or Bankstown. The rest I am unsure of but its the same all over at the moment.

leaveusalone
3rd May 2008, 01:27 PM
Well all the members of Ashlar shouldnt get there hopes up just yet on a new coarse, as usual noone has thought about the surrounding residents, and we have had any consultation and not been comunicated with or advised what the hell is going on, or how the process will affect us if it goes ahead.

I can tell you all here, that we the residents along Richmond Rd and Noel Street , that have properties that back onto the Golf Coarse have all received letters from Urban Pacific wanting to buy our properties to enable better entrances and apeel to the new load of streets and houses that will be put in place on the existing Ashlar Coarse.....:smt013 and i can just say "over our dead bodies"....we dont want this, we live here and have for years, no one wants to sell,or is going to, WHAT, did you the members all think they were just going to build addon streets from Springfeild ave, wake up.....we are all now going to suffer because of this, not just the club, or you golfers, us the residents are about to get it shoved up our rears, but we will fight for our land, our homes, and for our right to live here as much as anyone else.

Bring it on Mr Sator.

And Craig Scott, you will be getting some phone calls and visit's m8, from alot of Residents that want answers. :smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093

Andrew
3rd May 2008, 01:36 PM
Thanks for your input.

This is just a forum of about 400 people from all over Australia. We have no power in these matters.

Have you written to the government & planning minister ?

I hope your fight goes well.

sms316
3rd May 2008, 03:55 PM
Well all the members of Ashlar shouldnt get there hopes up just yet on a new coarse, as usual noone has thought about the surrounding residents, and we have had any consultation and not been comunicated with or advised what the hell is going on, or how the process will affect us if it goes ahead.

I can tell you all here, that we the residents along Richmond Rd and Noel Street , that have properties that back onto the Golf Coarse have all received letters from Urban Pacific wanting to buy our properties to enable better entrances and apeel to the new load of streets and houses that will be put in place on the existing Ashlar Coarse.....:smt013 and i can just say "over our dead bodies"....we dont want this, we live here and have for years, no one wants to sell,or is going to, WHAT, did you the members all think they were just going to build addon streets from Springfeild ave, wake up.....we are all now going to suffer because of this, not just the club, or you golfers, us the residents are about to get it shoved up our rears, but we will fight for our land, our homes, and for our right to live here as much as anyone else.

Bring it on Mr Sator.

And Craig Scott, you will be getting some phone calls and visit's m8, from alot of Residents that want answers. :smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093

Put some effort in mate. Most people here try to get noticed with their first post, not just sneak under the radar like you...
:lol:

amanda
4th May 2008, 10:54 AM
Welcome leaveusalone :)

As for Craig - why not try calling the local newspaper? The Blacktown Advocate is looking for people to interview about the project.

On the other side of the argument - I know someone who received one of those letters - and registered their interest in selling to Urban Pacific, as did a few of their neighbours. Perhaps not everyone is against the project.

I believe something similar happened along the road parallel to the train tracks at Doonside. The new Edgewood housing estate seems to have increased property value in the surrounding streets by a significant amount. Mind you - it wasn't building over a golf course - but property values increased all the same.

Playing devil's advocate here - suppose that Ashlar GC goes bankrupt? The courts/liquidators would be forced to sell the land in a way that provides the greatest return to creditors (usually the bank) and may end up selling to a developer anyway.

We have been looking at land very carefully for the last 3 yrs - Urban Pacific seems to be one of the few responsible land developers - block sizes are reasonable (usually min. size 650sqm). Compare that to the work of Mirvac, Australand, Delfin/Lend Lease - Ropes Crossing as an average block size of 450sqm. Homes spaced out have more long-term value than many houses crammed together. Thereby also increasing surrounding property values.

Now - I'm not saying whether I agree with what UP, Ashlar GC, Blacktown Council, the NSW Dept of Planning say/do/intend - just providing some food for thought.

Scottt
4th May 2008, 01:45 PM
Craig? Who the ***k is craig?

JimBob
4th May 2008, 03:20 PM
Has anyone predicted if Ashlar members will fall on the same sword as Kellyville if the deal is done? A club with no course?

WeekendHacker
5th May 2008, 07:00 AM
Has anyone predicted if Ashlar members will fall on the same sword as Kellyville if the deal is done? A club with no course?
Kellyville has a course its just under development still out at Pitt Town. Not going to be too bad a course either.

WeekendHacker
5th May 2008, 07:03 AM
Craig? Who the ***k is craig?
Craig Scott is the GM at Ashlar. Great bloke and has been doing a fantastic job since he started at Ashlar.

amanda
5th May 2008, 07:21 AM
Kellyville has a course its just under development still out at Pitt Town. Not going to be too bad a course either.
Wow - that's a big move - isn't it quite a fair drive from Kellyville to Pitt Town? (and I'm pretty sure they are trying to rezone whole tracts of land out there from rural to housing)

WeekendHacker
5th May 2008, 07:24 AM
Well all the members of Ashlar shouldnt get there hopes up just yet on a new coarse, as usual noone has thought about the surrounding residents, and we have had any consultation and not been comunicated with or advised what the hell is going on, or how the process will affect us if it goes ahead.

I can tell you all here, that we the residents along Richmond Rd and Noel Street , that have properties that back onto the Golf Coarse have all received letters from Urban Pacific wanting to buy our properties to enable better entrances and apeel to the new load of streets and houses that will be put in place on the existing Ashlar Coarse.....:smt013 and i can just say "over our dead bodies"....we dont want this, we live here and have for years, no one wants to sell,or is going to, WHAT, did you the members all think they were just going to build addon streets from Springfeild ave, wake up.....we are all now going to suffer because of this, not just the club, or you golfers, us the residents are about to get it shoved up our rears, but we will fight for our land, our homes, and for our right to live here as much as anyone else.

Bring it on Mr Sator.

And Craig Scott, you will be getting some phone calls and visit's m8, from alot of Residents that want answers. :smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093:smt093
At the end of the day if you sell or don't sell it will only take a couple of the businesses on Richmond Road or residents in Noel Street to sell and the access is done and taken care of. They will not be looking to buy the entire street just a few adjoining houses to level so a road can be put through.

If it is not UPL it IS going to be another developer as Ashlar is no longer financially viable moving forward. Dropping numbers of golfers everywhere, a clubhouse that is away from the main road and looking like something straight out of the 60's is all adding up to making the club in 3-5 years time on extremely shaky ground. The land will be rezoned and someone will pick it up for a song and it will in 5 - 10 years time be a new development.

The fact is that whilst some people may object to the development of the Ashlar land it is going to happen. UPL and Medallist have some major clout when it comes to land and housing development. Once the member vote get passed, and it will be passed through the club, it is just a matter of when and not if the development goes ahead.

WeekendHacker
5th May 2008, 07:30 AM
Wow - that's a big move - isn't it quite a fair drive from Kellyville to Pitt Town? (and I'm pretty sure they are trying to rezone whole tracts of land out there from rural to housing)
It is a big move and it is about a 20 minute drive from where there club was to the new site. There is a development of land that is going ahead out there at the moment. It is not connected to the course at all. For the new club, Lynwood Golf Club, it will give them a good base of new members from the housing being developed out there now so if old members of Kellyville choose not to go there it should not impact too badly for them in the long run.

Grunt
5th May 2008, 07:34 AM
Wow - that's a big move - isn't it quite a fair drive from Kellyville to Pitt Town?

Lots of golfers are now members of clubs not that close to their homes nowadays, other factors come into it.

Scottt
5th May 2008, 08:33 AM
The Pitt Town course is tied up with the LEP for Pitt Town and a massive redevelopment of an orange farm into housing by a bloke named Keith Johnson. It was headed to the L&E Court about a year ago when I finished working out there.

The course is supposed to be very good, as a layout, at least.

miro
5th May 2008, 10:44 AM
Scottt

Keiths development is fully approved and is not "tied" up in any way with the Pitt Town course. Keith has, as is a developers way, gone back for a bit more density but stage 1 development is now turning dirt. The balance of much of the land in the Pitt Town area has two major issues for further residential development:

1. virtually all of it is flood affected and hence not able to be rezoned or not financially viable.

2. Pitt Town sits outside of the designated areas for rezoning in tthe Sydney basin. Keith rezoning was achieved predominantly as the process had been underway for a number of years prior to the rezoning strategy for the sydney basin being put in place. The government has advised the development industry that "spot" rezonings outside of the strategy are highly unlikely.

So in fact there is unlikely to be a "high" desnity of people at Pitt Town and these courses will need to trade off the population within a 15-20 minute drive time which is firslty not overly wealthy and secondly not overly dense. As with Twin Creeks, Camden Lakeside and (the first example) Riverside Oaks these courses will struggle especially if a private membership model is followed.

Scottt
5th May 2008, 11:48 AM
I actually think Riverside Oaks might have been more successful (Pat Cunningham is the fifth owner that I know of) if it had been a private club rather than a public resort course. It suffered from not having accommodation, and being a pretty shitty drive from most of Sydney until motorways proliferated. Even now it's much harder to get to than Twin Creeks or Lakeside.

As well as that, if you were planning a family weekend away, there is sod all near Riverside to entertain non-golfers, and an extra 45mins or so from Sydney you can be in the Hunter, nelson bay or the souther highlands - which all offer more.

As far as decent private clubs, the Hawkesbury only really has Richmond and Windsor (Kurrjong Hills and Grose Wold are terrible 9holers), so there is room there for4 another course.

I realise the Pitt Town golf course and KJs development weren't intertwined, but for a long period of time hawkeabury Council was delaying the course so it could see what would happen with the residential development. It also has resident concerns about infrastructure and floodtimje exavuation, which is a major issue for that section of the Hawkesbury.

jimandr
5th May 2008, 09:41 PM
I suspect 'leaveusalone' has done some Googling, found our reference to the development, and pasted the form letter from the protest group. Good work with the emoticons though.

I'll predict we won't see too many more posts, particularly if he/she works out that we have no influence over the decision process.

Having said that, from a purely selfing point of view, if I was a resident I'd be dead against it too.

The entire northwest corridor is a bit of a golfing conundrum isn't it. Kellyville disappears, Ashlar may disappear, but at least two new courses may spring up to replace them. My feeling is that the new course marketers may misread the market if they pitch too high. I'm not sure there is much demand for a high level course in the mortgage belt.

JimBob
6th May 2008, 04:42 AM
Kellyville has a course its just under development still out at Pitt Town. Not going to be too bad a course either.

What I was getting at was, they were supposed to have a course when Kellyville closed down, however they have taken it up you know where due to no fault of their own.

KV closed down some months ago & they may have 9 holes by the end of the year, not a great predicament for members.

Let's hope if the deal is struck it is handled better than the previous one.

amanda
6th May 2008, 06:37 AM
I suspect 'leaveusalone' has done some Googling, found our reference to the development, and pasted the form letter from the protest group.
My goodness - if that's the form letter the protest group is using - then they may be in trouble! Poor spelling and using value & emotion laden terms never gets people anywhere.

WeekendHacker
6th May 2008, 07:30 AM
My feeling is that the new course marketers may misread the market if they pitch too high. I'm not sure there is much demand for a high level course in the mortgage belt.
The thing is for Stonecutters is that they are building a Residential Golfing Development. A little different to just putting in a championship golf course in a declining market and hoping people will come and join or play there.
The thing that Stonecutters has going for it is that it is a Greg Norman designed championship course in the heart of the Sydney Metro area right on an exit/entry to the M7. This should be a Corporate Golf Day haven once it opens. Close to every thing and with some great facilities I think it will take away from some of the other clubs within Sydney and beyond for these types of Corporate and Social Golf days. There is also that group of golfers amongst us who will flock there to play anyway as it is a Greg Norman course. If it is marketed right it will be a huge boom for the club...if not........

Scottt
6th May 2008, 08:13 AM
Stonecutters will likely follow the Riverside Oaks, Camden Lakeside, Horizons model and go through thre or four owners before it flourishes.

If Ashlar GC takes over, they'll need some serious membership $$$ to stay afloat, and I don't know how many people there are around Colebee/Riverstone/Rouse Hill and Blacktown who'll be able to pony up $3K a year.

Cumberland, which is the equal of Ashlar if not better is $915pa with no joining fee, there's Fox Hills just down the road and for those west of Colebee, Windsor and Riichmond are within 15 mins and less than $1000 a year (at last check, not much over $1K if they are).

It's a tough market.

amanda
6th May 2008, 09:43 AM
This might sound a bit strange - but one of the main reasons they are building the golf course is to be able to sell land for more $$ than the surrounding area is worth ;)
Decent houses with land are being sold in Dean Park just next door for $350k. Land at Stonecutters Ridge is likely to start at $350k.

miro
6th May 2008, 09:51 AM
This might sound a bit strange - but one of the main reasons they are building the golf course is to be able to sell land for more $$ than the surrounding area is worth ;)
Decent houses with land are being sold in Dean Park just next door for $350k. Land at Stonecutters Ridge is likely to start at $350k.

Amanda,

Thats is not strange at all, there is fair body of research on land prices located on or near golf courses and the premium that they have historically received. In rough terms (and this assumes my memory is correct and I am getting old so no guarantees) a block with golf course frontage will achieve around 35%-50% more than non estate lots (there has been some recent QLd based evidence that suggest premium lots achieiving 75% - 100% more than non estate lots), a lot in the estate (no golf views no frontage) will average 15%-20% above non estate lots.

The really interesting thing about this research is that it indicates only around 30% of people who buy in golf course estates play golf. Its more of a lifestyle/premium estate choice.

Given the broad house and land market out that way $350k plus will see limited short term interest in sales I suspect -however, I think that would be the case irrespective of price and hence I reckon their pricing sounds about right.

Scottt
6th May 2008, 10:00 AM
Miro - spot on.

Look at Macquarie Links as an example.

Three minutes from Macquarie Fields, probably the most highly-publicised shit suburb in Sydney, you have this haven of "niceness" populated by execs and the like from companies in the south west, including the Ingleburn Industrial Estate just down the road.

There really is no chalk and cheese like Mac Fields and Mac Links, and I suspect Stonecutters will be much the same when compared to the suburbs that surround it.

amanda
6th May 2008, 10:55 AM
Spot on about golf course frontage being more expensive. I'll be interested to see what the prices of other blocks are when the whole project officially launches in a few months.

WeekendHacker
15th May 2008, 07:39 AM
More information has now been given out to groups of members attending information nights on a Wednesday.

Looks like it is going full steam ahead. Due diligence is nearly complete and the developers and the Ashlar board are talking on a weekly basis. There is currently a valuation of the Ashlar land underway and the board envisages that this will be finished in the coming week or so. The council is doing land valuation at the new course as well so all parties will know what is worth what. They are aiming to have a members vote in July so it is gathering pace now.

Ashlar has met with the architects who will be designing the club house so that we have full input into the layout etc of the new club.

The deal proposed will be a turn-key swap. Ashlar closes the doors on the Sunday and reopen on the Monday at a new course fully kitted out. This will include all clubhouse fitout inclusive of furniture, bar equipment, computer equipment and all green keeping equipment. The only thing Ashlar will need to relocate will be the poker machines.

Feeling so far from the focus group meeting is that the majority of members are for the move with a very small minority opposed so hopefully, fingers crossed, Ashlar will be on the move.

amanda
15th May 2008, 11:32 AM
Thanks WH for the update!

Just a general question - what is the female golfing membership like at Ashlar? Mainly the blue rinse set? Are they very narky?

WeekendHacker
15th May 2008, 11:35 AM
Thanks WH for the update!

Just a general question - what is the female golfing membership like at Ashlar? Mainly the blue rinse set? Are they very narky?
Ashlar does not really have a very large female membership. Most of the females are in the 35 - 45 year age bracket and most of them play Saturdays.

mikezone13
15th May 2008, 12:34 PM
My mate just signed up there to try and get on board if the mvoe happens. Are they taking lots of new members on because of this?

WeekendHacker
15th May 2008, 12:48 PM
My mate just signed up there to try and get on board if the mvoe happens. Are they taking lots of new members on because of this?
not really. 10 new members in the last 2 months. Once the members vote is announced they will close off the no joining fee and all new members from then on will have to pay $5,000.00 joining fee. This fee will then flow over to the new course.

mikezone13
15th May 2008, 08:56 PM
not really. 10 new members in the last 2 months. Once the members vote is announced they will close off the no joining fee and all new members from then on will have to pay $5,000.00 joining fee. This fee will then flow over to the new course.

Is it worth joining up at Ashlar now then, how good is this other track going to be and when is it supposed to open?

Scottt
15th May 2008, 08:59 PM
I read that Stonecutters won't be open until 2010.

WeekendHacker
16th May 2008, 08:19 AM
Is it worth joining up at Ashlar now then, how good is this other track going to be and when is it supposed to open?
Probably be a good opportunity and the course will be fantastic when opened in May 2010. They have already booked Norman for somewhere in May 2010 to hit the first ball off the 1st tee.

Grunt
16th May 2008, 08:31 AM
If we all joined there we could stop at Amanda & Brad's place for refreshments. It is by the 7th Tee isn't it?

amanda
16th May 2008, 04:41 PM
Grunt - 8th tee! Brad's even planning some sort of tucker box built into the fence complete with esky, cold drinks and snacks :)

Grunt
16th May 2008, 04:52 PM
Grunt - 8th tee! Brad's even planning some sort of tucker box built into the fence complete with esky, cold drinks and snacks :)
Even better you could get some paid labour to cook fresh for us as it is a good half way house option.

Andrew
16th May 2008, 07:24 PM
Grunt - 8th tee! Brad's even planning some sort of tucker box built into the fence complete with esky, cold drinks and snacks :)

So, you are saying you don't want us in your house. ;)

amanda
17th May 2008, 06:44 PM
Happy to have everyone in the house after the game!

We don't want to slow down play :)

Humphrey
20th May 2008, 03:21 PM
Ashlar has met with the architects who will be designing the club house so that we have full input into the layout etc of the new club.


Have you seen the prliminary drawings for the new club ????? BORING
What about a big deck overlooking the 18th green, so you can have a beer and something to eat outside. Wasted opportunity if nothing like that is done in my opinion.

Scottt
20th May 2008, 06:39 PM
The plan in the clubhouse at Ashlar does say "first draft" so I would take the design with a grain of salt.

WeekendHacker
21st May 2008, 07:55 AM
The clubhouse will have decks that overlook the course. The initial drawing in the club is a first draft and and such is more about getting the input to see what can be fitted in to the space that UPL are allowing for the clubhouse.

amanda
21st May 2008, 02:47 PM
Oohh - sounds interesting - as owners we haven't seen any plans for the clubhouse yet.

The plan was to have function room, gym, change/locker rooms, creche as well as all the other facilities (2 swimming pools, tennis courts etc)

Scottt
21st May 2008, 02:53 PM
The latest from the local paper: http://www.blacktownadvocate.com.au/article/2008/05/21/2220_news.html

WeekendHacker
22nd May 2008, 10:45 AM
Oohh - sounds interesting - as owners we haven't seen any plans for the clubhouse yet.

The plan was to have function room, gym, change/locker rooms, creche as well as all the other facilities (2 swimming pools, tennis courts etc)
Not too sure as to when and if owners of land will see the plans prior to final version. The golf course and its facilities will be on a seperate land title to the housing development and from talks with the club it looks as though the board and members of Ashlar will have the say in the layout etc of the club.

It will include 3 function rooms that can be opened up into a single area if needed, a full gym, pool, 2 - 4 tennis courts and the driving range. Ashlar would most likely lease out the gym and pool area to something like a Fitness First or the like as they have management experience in this area.

Grunt
22nd May 2008, 12:47 PM
Careful just hope the guys that run Mac Grange don't hear of this. They are supposed Gym managers.

amanda
22nd May 2008, 02:59 PM
it looks as though the board and members of Ashlar will have the say in the layout etc of the club.
As long as there are enough lockers & decent change rooms for lady members!

On a side note - can lady members @ Ashlar be full 7-day members same as men and play on Saturdays?



It will include 3 function rooms that can be opened up into a single area if needed, a full gym, pool, 2 - 4 tennis courts and the driving range. Ashlar would most likely lease out the gym and pool area to something like a Fitness First or the like as they have management experience in this area.
Wow - didn't realise the gym was going to be that big - ie similar to a Fitness First size establishment. I remember someone from Urban Pacific saying that they wanted to make membership to the clubhouse (gym, pool, tennis courts) reasonably priced so that most residents in the estate would pay to join. Hopefully not the horrendous prices that you see at Fitness First!

It will be interesting to see competion on the gym front - the new gym at Rooty Hill RSL looks huge and awesome! Seemed reasonably priced as well.

Scottt
22nd May 2008, 03:37 PM
One 55 at Rooty Hill RSL is pretty good, by all accounts.

WeekendHacker
26th May 2008, 02:56 PM
On a side note - can lady members @ Ashlar be full 7-day members same as men and play on Saturdays?

They certainly can. The 7 day subsrciption is the same for both male and female members.



Wow - didn't realise the gym was going to be that big - ie similar to a Fitness First size establishment. I remember someone from Urban Pacific saying that they wanted to make membership to the clubhouse (gym, pool, tennis courts) reasonably priced so that most residents in the estate would pay to join. Hopefully not the horrendous prices that you see at Fitness First!

It will be interesting to see competion on the gym front - the new gym at Rooty Hill RSL looks huge and awesome! Seemed reasonably priced as well.

Not too sure just how big it will be. This was an idea being bounced around. I think if there is enough room they would like to have someone lease it out who knows what they are doing rather than just a local who wants to run a gym. I think the membership to the club will be quite cheap. The idea is to not only attract the local residents of the estate but also people from aroiund the area.

amanda
27th May 2008, 07:55 AM
Yeah - the reason we're not putting in a pool is that we figured we'd join the clubhouse as it was going to be reasonable (about $400 per year was a rough figure quoted a yr ago)

Stumpy
17th June 2008, 02:26 PM
Just happened on this site and noticed talk about what is happening at Ashlar where I am a member, the actual facts are that Ashlar have been approched to do a straight swap, no money will change hands. Aslars members will have complete control of the new club including fee's, a vote will take place probably in July were 75% approval must be reached before being passed. What the angry gentleman does not understand is that if we don't move there won't be a golf club in the next 3-5 years, it will be sold to developers some of which won't be sympathetic to the surrounding houses. The fact is it is prime land next to Blacktown and the railway station which is the type of place the government want's developed to take cars off the road. The oldies in the club may not want to move but anyone with a little sense can see we don't have a choice.

WeekendHacker
17th June 2008, 04:17 PM
the actual facts are that Ashlar have been approched to do a straight swap, no money will change hands.
Now this is not entirely true. There is a cash component involved as well as UPL paying out the near $500,000.00 worth of debt the club currently has. This includes the overdraft and lease costs for the green keeping equipment and some other odds and sods. Once payed out Ashlar will lease all equipment back from UPL for $1.00 thus reducing the ongoing debt until the club can be moved. There will be a cash component as well but this is still being discussed between Ashlar and UPL as to what a fair figure would be.

amanda
18th June 2008, 03:16 PM
Stumpy, Weekend Hacker - brad & I were thinking of playing there (Ashlar) one Sunday - easy to get on? Interested in showing us around?

Since it seems like we'll be getting a club with membership - would be nice to meet some people and find out who we need to steer clear of!

jimandr
18th June 2008, 08:11 PM
Steer clear of Bathurst members taking advantage of their reciprocal rights!

Grunt
19th June 2008, 06:13 AM
Steer clear of Bathurst members taking advantage of their reciprocal rights!

Oooh bit harsh Jim.;)

Stumpy
19th June 2008, 01:30 PM
Much as I would love to show you all around I am not available sundays, I have not been a member that long, all the natives are friendly enough but steer clear of stumpy!!!!

Stumpy
19th June 2008, 01:31 PM
Stumpy, Weekend Hacker - brad & I were thinking of playing there (Ashlar) one Sunday - easy to get on? Interested in showing us around?

Since it seems like we'll be getting a club with membership - would be nice to meet some people and find out who we need to steer clear of!


Very easy to get on the course on Sunday

amanda
20th June 2008, 07:34 AM
thanks stumpy! once this blasted rain stops we'll make a booking.

Humphrey
11th August 2008, 12:43 PM
Has anyone heard anything more about "the swap" ???

Scottt
11th August 2008, 01:16 PM
Will be speaking to the club this week. Will provide a link to the yarn when it's online.

Stumpy
11th August 2008, 02:17 PM
Has anyone heard anything more about "the swap" ???

Latest news is the vote will be in September, we have had an influx of members as the news got around, it needs 75% approval which should push it through due to the new guys. I have heard and I'm not sure how true that they will slap a huge joining fee on the minute it is passed so anyone thinking they can wait until after the vote will miss out.

Humphrey
11th August 2008, 03:30 PM
Im a member here (Ashlar), but it seems as if the whole thing has died a natural death. I havent heard squat about it since the "information" nights ended, and from what Ive seen on the website it is what was sent out in the letter to us.

Grunt
11th August 2008, 05:43 PM
Have heard that also about the joining fee, have also heard their will be a different level of membership for old and new members.

amanda
11th August 2008, 06:56 PM
Things are really moving ahead at the estate - some pics I took a few weeks ago:

On our block looking towards the entrace of the estate. The small buildings you can see is the sales centre and display village. On the other side of the road will be houses that will back on to the 7th tee. The water you can see will be for a man-made waterway
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/Panorama2008_07_30south_1.jpg

Our land - 8th tee & fairway will be alongside our property
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_2111_1.jpg

Humphrey
1st September 2008, 01:51 PM
Was at the club Friday night...as per usual...and they mentioned that the latest proposal from Stonecutters had a few contentious issues and they had sent it back to them. They failed to tell us what the issues were....does anyone have any insight into these issues. ??

amanda
1st September 2008, 02:25 PM
No word from the developer on what they might be.

WeekendHacker
2nd September 2008, 08:24 AM
If they do not start disemminating more info out about this it is going to die a quick death amongst the members. There are more and more members who are getting a little pi**ed off at being kept in the dark on this proposed move. The more the board keep quiet and do not give members the full story the more chances of this being voted against when the time comes.

amanda
2nd September 2008, 10:19 AM
Sounds like exactly the same story of what happened at New Brighton and the Mirvac deal that fell through.

Scottt
2nd September 2008, 10:21 AM
Not sure if it's Mirvac, but there is a development deal happening at New Brighton.

amanda
2nd September 2008, 10:30 AM
Perhaps with the people building Georges Fair? They did sell the land where the front entrance road is and part of the 2nd hole many years ago for access into the new estate.

Scottt
2nd September 2008, 10:35 AM
Yeah, that's the one.

They're likely to lose the first three holes as part of the development.

Scottt
2nd September 2008, 10:36 AM
There was also a plan to move the clubhouse down to the river.

Grunt
2nd September 2008, 11:25 AM
Last time I was there there were reno's done to the current clubhouse.

Scottt
16th October 2008, 06:00 PM
BIG NEWS

The vote has been delayed until next year and is EXTREMELY unlikely to be successful.

The guy we played with today sugested as much, and I made a few enquiries this afternoon. Looks like he is on the mark.

Grunt
16th October 2008, 06:20 PM
Maybe the land is not as good for building houses as the club thought.

Scottt
16th October 2008, 06:30 PM
The council is right behind the plan. The mayor told me four or five months ago that there would be no council objection. They want an additional 200,000 people in the LGA by 2020, and other than the Ashlar site, there is very little greenfield land available. The only other option is to go up on already developed land.

The course is in magnificent nick at the moment, and it appears that many members are realising that for three times the annual fee, it's unlikely they will be getting three times the course.

Plus for the established areas of Blacktown (South Blacktown, city centre, Marayong, Lalor Park, Seven Hills), Colebee is an extra 10-minute drive.

The risk is that the club itself struggles for non-golf patrons by not having a main road frontage, but it seems many members don't believe the financial position will be an issue.

Grunt
16th October 2008, 06:38 PM
Good to hear, I actually like the course. It is one of the few Sydney golf Courses I would join if I were to join one.

Scottt
16th October 2008, 06:40 PM
Yeah, for $1000 a year it's a sensational track, and it has two strong mid-week comps.

WeekendHacker
17th October 2008, 07:53 AM
but at the end of he day it is now $1200.00 and will increase at the full 15% per year allowable by the clubs constitution. The membrship is now about the same as it was at the same time last year as people have left after the fees were increased for this year and new members joining with the view the course will be moving to Stonecutters. There has been absolutley zero information disseminated by the club on the current status of the move/deal and the only way any info s getting around is from talking to other members who have had a chat with one of the board. The more Yes voters I am speaing to from week to week the more of these are changing their mind now to undecided or no voters due to the lack of any info at all coming directly from the board. The way they have treated this from day one and the total lack of any respect for the members of the club deserves to see this die a natural death. The thing they do not seem to grasp is that without this deal going through Ashlar will be housing in the next 5 years anyway. The question is will the members decide who itis that develops the land or will it be out of their hands?

Not so Big Easy
17th October 2008, 07:54 AM
Could this Ashlar / Stonecutters deal look to fall through, because perhaps the personnel representing Ashlar in discussions with UPL are out of their depths with regards to business dealings of this size?

As a member of Ashlar too, should the vote go ahead shortly, I am in two minds as to how to vote - do I vote yes and go over with the existing management, or do I vote no and when the club is established take a chance that the joining fee will be dropped (as I believe is the case with another golf community club - Twin Creeks) but the course will be managed by experience personnel in club & facilities management such as Troon?

WeekendHacker
17th October 2008, 08:12 AM
Could this Ashlar / Stonecutters deal look to fall through, because perhaps the personnel representing Ashlar in discussions with UPL are out of their depths with regards to business dealings of this size?

As a member of Ashlar too, should the vote go ahead shortly, I am in two minds as to how to vote - do I vote yes and go over with the existing management, or do I vote no and when the club is established take a chance that the joining fee will be dropped (as I believe is the case with another golf community club - Twin Creeks) but the course will be managed by experience personnel in club & facilities management such as Troon?

I think you have nailed it on the head there. The board, even with legal help are way out of their depth in this. Whilst they are doing the best they can is it really the best for the club and members?

UPL has asked for 2 spots on the board if it all goes through. This will not give them a controlling vote as the board i made up of 7 people but I think even they have seen that maybe in order for the new course to succeed there needs to be a bit of experience on the board to ensure the same financial situation and decsion making processes do not happen with Stonecutters as has happened with Ashlar.

amanda
17th October 2008, 03:12 PM
Hi all!


There has been absolutley zero information disseminated by the club on the current status of the move/deal and the only way any info s getting around is from talking to other members who have had a chat with one of the board. The more Yes voters I am speaing to from week to week the more of these are changing their mind now to undecided or no voters due to the lack of any info at all coming directly from the board.

I agree that poor communication is going to give all the members the craps and turn the tide of things. Expectations management is key in any big change.


The thing they do not seem to grasp is that without this deal going through Ashlar will be housing in the next 5 years anyway
Sad isn't it - we went through the same deal at NB - most members couldn't see that poor cash flow was going to kill the club

zipptopp
19th October 2008, 11:53 AM
I would expect the AGM to be very well patronised this year.

Maybe the board will tell us what is going on then. They maybe restrained by commercial confidence requirements but at least an explanation would settle the members.

3oneday
19th October 2008, 02:08 PM
Depends on what's in it for the board.

Not so Big Easy
20th October 2008, 10:53 AM
I was surprised to see more information up in the clubhouse on the weekend, however it was merely a draft design of the clubhouse and a few other things that UPL could supply quite easily.

A few of the members share the same concerns as myself as to whether by accepting the proposal with the existing leaders, could Stonecutters face the same fate as Ashlar is now?

I believe the AGM for Ashlar is to be held later this year, and if Scottt is correct by saying that the vote for the proposal is put off till next year, then the AGM will hopefully be a great forum to disclose the actual status of the proposal.

Personally, if I was running for the committee (as much as I'd love to I can't commit to it, and wouldn't want to deprive someone who may have the time), I'd be sending out an email or letter asking for feedback on the current situation of the Ashlar Golf Club from where they sit. If you want to represent the club, then you need to know what the key ingredient of the club feels and views.

I'd be curious to know what other Sydney golf clubs are facing financial hardship and see what the common factor is amongst the clubs in crisis.

WeekendHacker
21st October 2008, 09:06 AM
I was surprised to see more information up in the clubhouse on the weekend, however it was merely a draft design of the clubhouse and a few other things that UPL could supply quite easily.


It was nice to see some proper drawings of the clubhouse rather than the one done by someones 3 year old child that has been up there for some time.



A few of the members share the same concerns as myself as to whether by accepting the proposal with the existing leaders, could Stonecutters face the same fate as Ashlar is now?


Thats the 50 million dollar question. Whilst the GM, is a great bloke i, along with those I play with, are unsure as to whether a GM who came from Parramatta Golf Club to a club in dire dire financial difficulty is the one that can manage the new course and club. Parramatta is a nice course and is very friendlly etc but a 9 holer social golf club as opposed to a multi million dollar brand new golf course with the potential to reap a massive windfall in corporate and social golf groups if done right.......i am not so sure. At least with 2 seats on the board the UPL/Medalist ring ins will be able to add some much needed advice and experience which hopefully will make the place a winner for everyone.

Not so Big Easy
21st October 2008, 12:00 PM
Whilst yes Craig, the Secretary Manager (or whatever the title is) seems nice enough, I don't believe his experience and creditentials put him in good position to lead this multi million dollar, mutli facility organisation. However my concern does not necessarily lie solely with him, who are the other members of the committee, that are playing a part in this venture? What are their skills and experience? Are these people perhaps some of the cause as to why Ashlar is in the current financial situation? I don't want to sound like I'm accusing them of creating this financial hole, however one has to ask what steps have they taken to get us out of the financial hole.

Scottt
21st October 2008, 01:46 PM
What did he do before he was at Parra GC though? You can't judge a bloke solely on what his last gig was.

3oneday
21st October 2008, 02:06 PM
Are they allowed to take their pokies with them ? No club survives on fees and meat raffles.

Not so Big Easy
21st October 2008, 02:20 PM
What did he do before he was at Parra GC though? You can't judge a bloke solely on what his last gig was.

I couldn't agree more. Maybe he does have experience in sports / leisure facilities management or something that will serve best with a facility like Stonecutters has planned. Then again, I wouldn't have thought that you'd head to Parramatta GC as a promotion from something resembling Stonecutters? Parramatta GC to Ashlar GC seems like a plausible promotion.

To be quite honest though, I feel the communciation may go through him between UPL and Ashlar but would've thought all incoming communication would be put on the committee's table to discuss. Its all people in involved I am more interested in, not just one person, unless of course, they have the final say.

WeekendHacker
22nd October 2008, 07:12 AM
The decision making and negotiations are being done by the club board as a whole not just Craig.

I don't think anyone is judging on where he came from but as pointed out by Easy, from Parra to Ashlar is a good promotion but to what Stonecutters will be witout a good grounding in promotion and marketing it may be a little bit of a stretch. I don't think the corporate golf organised at Parra or Ashlar is anything like what will need to be done at the new course. Maybe they need to employ the services of a good marketing person or organisation to help with this over the first few years. Certainly would be money well spent and would certainly be recouped without a problem. Spend $150K on a good wiz to sit over the top of the whole thing and then have Craig as the Director of Golf or something like that.


Are they allowed to take their pokies with them ? No club survives on fees and meat raffles.

Pokies are being moved to the new place with a special dispensation from the gaming board to keep all of the current licences intact. If you move a premise more than 5kms then you lose a percentage of your poker machine licences as the licences are tied to an address not a person. The gaming board has agreed to allow us to take all of the licences to the new premise which is at least one good thing.

At the end of the day Stonecutters will need to be treated as a serious business and not just as a hobby which is what it is now and has been for sometime at Ashlar. Using the excuse that "we have no main road frontage so people do not know we are there" is a pretty crap statement to make ad if the finger was removed and some serious action was taken we would be in a uch better position now than we actually are.

Scottt
22nd October 2008, 07:33 AM
I don't think anyone is judging on where he came from but as pointed out by Easy, from Parra to Ashlar is a good promotion but to what Stonecutters will be witout a good grounding in promotion and marketing it may be a little bit of a stretch.

Does he not have a good grounding in marketing?

3oneday
22nd October 2008, 07:43 AM
Stonecutters will sell itself the first 12 to 18 months, it'll be after that when the novelty value wears off that will be the test.

Not so Big Easy
22nd October 2008, 08:02 AM
Does any of the board have experience in marketing? or even business management of this scale?

Perhaps in addition to WeekendHacker's suggestion of a marketing person or organisation, we may need a financial controller to ensure Stonecutters keeps its head above water.

Scottt
22nd October 2008, 08:12 AM
Perhaps you need to find out what skills your leadership does and doesn't have before you question their ability to run Stonecutters (if the vote ever happens and manages to get the 75% required).

Not being narky, I just think you owe it to them to find out what they have to offer before you question their abilities on a public forum.

We seem to have picked up a few newies through this thread, so it's obviously getting some hits. Empty accusations and claims don't help anyone.

Grunt
22nd October 2008, 08:17 AM
Is Troon involve at all with StoneCutters? I read an interesting article with the CEO of Troon recently. He said that here in Australia we don't pay enough for Golf and they were going to try and change that fact.

Not so Big Easy
22nd October 2008, 09:41 AM
Perhaps you need to find out what skills your leadership does and doesn't have before you question their ability to run Stonecutters (if the vote ever happens and manages to get the 75% required).

Not being narky, I just think you owe it to them to find out what they have to offer before you question their abilities on a public forum.

We seem to have picked up a few newies through this thread, so it's obviously getting some hits. Empty accusations and claims don't help anyone.

Scottt, you are absolutely right.

Not so Big Easy
22nd October 2008, 09:45 AM
For Ashlar members who have seen the club website, and info regarding the deal, how do you rate the information posted?

Scottt
22nd October 2008, 10:22 AM
Is Troon involve at all with StoneCutters? I read an interesting article with the CEO of Troon recently. He said that here in Australia we don't pay enough for Golf and they were going to try and change that fact.

:lol:
:lol:
:lol:

What a dickhead. He might like to ensure his courses are presented in something resembling decent condition (*cough* Pacific Dunes *cough*) before he launches his crusade to arse rape Aussie golfers.

It won't work.

WeekendHacker
22nd October 2008, 11:14 AM
Perhaps you need to find out what skills your leadership does and doesn't have before you question their ability to run Stonecutters (if the vote ever happens and manages to get the 75% required).

Not being narky, I just think you owe it to them to find out what they have to offer before you question their abilities on a public forum.

We seem to have picked up a few newies through this thread, so it's obviously getting some hits. Empty accusations and claims don't help anyone.

Very valid point.

The aim here is certainly not to crucify or hang anyone out to dry. There are alot of positives within the board of Ashlar and in some areas of running the club and course there are no complaints or issues being raised at all. The majority of members I have contact with are of the same view that if we had members on the board who did have a marketing background or alike in the area required to run a successful and profitable golf/sporting club (currently there are no directors of the club with these types of skills or experience) we would not be in the dire financial situation we are in. We have some very successful business owners and members of the legal fraternity within the board and these are people that give up their free personal time in making the club work and this should never be forgotten or unappreciatd. If they can run their own businesses without issue then they obviousy have business acumen. This may however only be in the area of their own business.

The points being made and raised here in this forum are not designed to take away from this fact but merely point out that those people with a financial interest in the club, all of the members, are very much united in the same concern. Does the membership have the full trust in the current leadership as it stands in being able to run a Stonecutters type facility for the betterment and longevity of the club? Myself and the group of members I play and associate with in the club feel as the current leadership stands probably not. With some professional expertise working with them and guiding them in the right direction in managing and marketing of a facility such as Stonecutters then most certainly yes. If this can be acheived then we are certainly out of the realm of a hobby and moving into the ream of a true business.

WeekendHacker
22nd October 2008, 11:18 AM
Is Troon involve at all with StoneCutters? I read an interesting article with the CEO of Troon recently. He said that here in Australia we don't pay enough for Golf and they were going to try and change that fact.

Grunt.....I believe that Troon was the backup if Ashlar was not interested. Troon approached Medallist to start with but Medallist approached the PGA and they suggested that Ashlar would be a good club to approach in doing something.

amanda
18th January 2009, 09:03 AM
Was lucky enough to get out on course with the Project Director yesterday - some pics of the short par 4 7th (330m) and the par 3 6th

From fairway to the 7th green
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3144_1.jpg

Back down towards the tee area
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3143_1.jpg

The 7th hole from the tiger tee location
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3149_1.jpg

Bunkers surrounding 6th green (par 3)
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3154_1.jpg

Looking from the tee down the 6th - you can't really see the green - it will be a "hit & hope" deal
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3158_1.jpg

adlo
18th January 2009, 02:49 PM
Is there always going to be a giant head blocking the approach to #7?
Was that the course designers plan?

Dotty
18th January 2009, 03:01 PM
Is there always going to be a giant head blocking the approach to #7?
Was that the course designers plan?
Wait until you see the pirate ship on #6 and the Arc de Triomphe on #8. :razz:

adlo
18th January 2009, 03:09 PM
Do all new members get a paddlin'?

http://www.bareflix.com/stonecutters/Stonecutter_initiation.jpg

amanda
18th January 2009, 03:13 PM
Is there always going to be a giant head blocking the approach to #7?
Was that the course designers plan?
Yep! I'll place a big cardboard cutout of me on the fairway :mrgreen:

Re the new member initiation - you'll have to ask the Ashlar members what happens - I got no clue!

(Oh - and I heard the vote may be happening in Feb)

WeekendHacker
19th January 2009, 04:06 PM
(Oh - and I heard the vote may be happening in Feb)

Probably March now. The two UPL people the board are dealing with are both on holidays and will not be back on deck till the end of Jan. There is still some finalising required on the contract documents and this could take a week or two to have sorted out. Due to this the club will need to call an general meeting with the 21 days notice to all members by mail. Penciled in very very faint for March

Scottt
19th January 2009, 08:05 PM
:lol: I'll believe it when it happens.

Not so Big Easy
20th January 2009, 12:53 PM
:lol: I'll believe it when it happens.

I think many members share the same view Scottt.

To some extent, if only they had timelined the steps that had been taken, people may be more understanding of the time its taken to get this far......or maybe that would aggrevate the members more.

Interesting to see if the vote takes place before the course is opened in Mid 2010

3oneday
20th January 2009, 01:26 PM
Maybe I should join Stonecutters prior to the Ashlar members, or is it open to residents only ? Or maybe everyone might start filtering over to the new Kellyville instead !

Not so Big Easy
20th January 2009, 01:51 PM
Maybe I should join Stonecutters prior to the Ashlar members, or is it open to residents only ? Or maybe everyone might start filtering over to the new Kellyville instead !

There's no guarantee that if or when it goes to vote, that it will get approved by the members. At least that's what talk around the clubhouse is indicating, however there's no numbers to put to the against or for.

As for the new course, Lynwood (Kellyville's replacement), it is a serious threat to Ashlar / Stonecutters. However they too could face similar issues to Ashlar, by only having a small clubhouse, which is limited in its revenue raising (not big enough I believe to host weddings, functions etc..), they will rely on the course to bring in the majority of revenue.

I wonder what other 'local' clubs are concerned with losing members to near by Stonecutters or Lynwood?

3oneday
20th January 2009, 02:10 PM
I am also waiting for Windsor to do one of these 18 month memberships, I heard that Lynwood was opening July this year I think, so probably Windsor and Richmond would be in the firing line there !

amanda
20th January 2009, 03:31 PM
pete - stonecutters ridge will be open to all - not just residents. I have heard that the Ashlar joining fee will shoot up if the vote is a "Yes" for the move.

Not so Big Easy - you're right about other revenue models. Stonecutters Ridge will have a full driving range as well as all the facilities for weddings & corporate events.

Not so Big Easy
20th January 2009, 04:28 PM
pete - stonecutters ridge will be open to all - not just residents. I have heard that the Ashlar joining fee will shoot up if the vote is a "Yes" for the move.

Not so Big Easy - you're right about other revenue models. Stonecutters Ridge will have a full driving range as well as all the facilities for weddings & corporate events.

I think you'll find some clubs are facing tough financial times at the moment, and part of the issue is the fact that don't have another revenue resource, should the golf itself struggle to bring in the dollars for reasons such as weather causing the course to close temporarily.

Fingers cross, Stonecutters will exercise plans to ensure the facilities are well and frequently patronised

amanda
21st January 2009, 08:32 AM
Not so Big Easy - if the club can get the food right - that is, reasonably priced but good quality bistro meals - then they shouldn't have a problem attracting people from within the estate.

All land owners get membership to the clubhouse (but not the golf club) - this entitles them to use of all pool, tennis courts and social golf. (You pay extra for membership to the golf club itself and access to comp rounds)

We know some other owners who don't play golf but plan to take it up because it's included - if some of those owners use the driving range every so often, take a group lesson, go for a drink and snack after the round - things have a chance of staying afloat :)

amanda
8th February 2009, 12:12 PM
Latest news is that the Ashlar board has accepted the offer by Medallist and letters have gone out for the membership vote in the near future.

There was a festival out at the estate on Saturday and Ashlar ran the NTP comp.

Festival on the main street
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3240_1.jpg

Going on a guided tour of the estate
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3225_1.jpg

From the 7th green looking back down towards the tee and 6th hole, display home etc
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee276/amanda_simple_savings/IMG_3234_1.jpg

There seemed to have been plenty of new "SOLD" stickers on lots since our last visit 2 weeks ago and they've released another stage of lots since the first tranche was selling so well.

On our front - our DA is approved - yipee! Just waiting for title registration which is happening in about 4 weeks time.

jimandr
8th February 2009, 09:07 PM
There was a snippet in one of today's papers mentioning that Mr G Norman would be visiting the development while he is Australia this week (or next week I suppose).

I expect some close-up pics, or a camera smashed against a tree at the very least.

amanda
9th February 2009, 08:54 AM
Jim - saw that article - I think it's next week. I'll have to see if I can get the day off work and try and get out there for a pic :)

burger
9th February 2009, 09:45 AM
I expect some close-up pics, or a camera smashed against a tree at the very least.

:smt038 onya Jim!

Perky
18th February 2009, 04:48 PM
I expect some close-up pics, or a camera smashed against a tree at the very least.

I was there when big John did that , was about 2 metres from him (as was my 7 yr old son).

Amanda , Stonecutters looks nice. I can see why you bought that block, its in a top position.
David

Grunt
18th February 2009, 05:43 PM
I was there when big John did that , was about 2 metres from him (as was my 7 yr old son).



David you must have been standing next to me, I was almost as close to it.

amanda
19th February 2009, 05:12 PM
I tried getting in to meet Greg - no chance unfortunately :( I might have a chance in the next few weeks to meet Bob Harrison though :)

Welcome to the neighbourhood Perky!

Perky
20th February 2009, 03:51 PM
Thanks Amanda,
I met Greg quite a few years ago , when he launched the Shark Challenge - mustve been over 10 years ago. How time flies. Got a photo with him. When they mentioned his GC 6 years ago I registered for land straight away but 3 years ago they lost my registration and I had to register again. Now looking forward to living there in the future....
Yeah Grunt probably was pretty close then , the guy who the ball rebounded off in the 1st place was a few steps in front of me. Then we hung around and the rest is history...

markTHEblake
20th February 2009, 08:13 PM
I cant beleive that Greg couldnt find time in his schedule to meet up with Mandy , opportunities like that dont come up everyday.

amanda
6th March 2009, 08:20 AM
Interesting developments
http://blacktown.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/golf-club-on-course-for-battle/1449905.aspx



A PROPOSAL which could see Ashlar Golf Club management taking over the new Greg Norman-designed golf course at Colebee is believed to be temporarily bunkered.

It is believed that Ashlar officials are demanding $10 million on top of a proposed facility exchange.

It also wants a guarantee that the memberships of current Ashlar golfers will be frozen at current levels for at least three years after they start playing on the new course.

The general managers of both organisations were scheduled to resume negotiations last week but the meeting was postponed.

The Colebee course is run by Medalist Development, part of Macquarie Group's joint venture with Norman's Great White Shark Enterprises. It is situated within the $650 million Stonecutters Ridge golfing community project.

Both Paul Hedge, state general manager of Medalist Development, and Craig Scott, general manager of Ashlar Golf Club, confirmed negotiations would continue.

When contacted, they declined to talk about the latest development, other to confirm that serious negotiations began late last year.

Both men also said they were confident of producing a plan that would be approved by their respective board of directors.

They said the changes would be made before the opening of the new golf course in March next year.

But a senior Ashlar Club member (who preferred not be be named) said that most members would oppose the plan in its original form, which was merely a swap of assets, after learning from real estate agents that Ashlar would be worth $30 million after rezoning and subdivision approvals.

``They overlooked the fact that Medalist had sought a swap mainly because they couldn't be bothered to look for new members and qualified people to run their golf club,'' he said.

``I heard Medalist is now talking with other golf clubs in the area.''

The source said he believed most of Ashlar's 400 members would have supported a straight swap if the plan was presented to them last December.

In a recent letter to members from Mr Scott, Medalist offered full ownership and control of the Colebee course (double Ashlar's land holdings of 144 hectares) and new facilities, worth about $25 million.

Medalist in turn would take over the Ashlar site, said to have a value of $18 million, before possible rezoning for housing and commercial developments.
Mr Hedge recently admitted some sort of housing could be considered given the site's proximity to the Blacktown CBD and the station and Blacktown Council's desire to revitalise the area.

3oneday
6th March 2009, 10:00 AM
$18 million undeveloped, probably $50 million zoned !

So Stonecutters is still 12 months away then ? I think Lynwood is opening around July although maybe only 9 holes firstly.

amanda
6th March 2009, 10:53 AM
Opening is expected to be May/June 2010

They spent bucketloads on turf for the golf holes you can see from the display homes - rest have been sprayed with seed - will have to wait for some decent rain :)

Sydney Hacker
6th March 2009, 10:57 AM
We played Ashlar in pennants this year and everyone on the team that I spoke to said that unless there was a significant cash component of the deal there was no way it would get through.

But they did also say that the cash side of things had been agreed too, so I am not sure what will happen there.

It is funny they all said the above, but also agreed that Ashlar would really struggle to survive where it currently is.

WeekendHacker
9th March 2009, 08:02 AM
Certainly an interesting story but full of misinformation.


It is believed that Ashlar officials are demanding $10 million on top of a proposed facility exchange.

Ashlar is not demanding $10 Million in cash. There is a cash component to the deal but is nothing in the order of this amount.


It also wants a guarantee that the memberships of current Ashlar golfers will be frozen at current levels for at least three years after they start playing on the new course.

Ashlar has agreed to freeze the membership fees for a period of 3 years not a freeze on membership numbers.


The source said he believed most of Ashlar's 400 members would have supported a straight swap if the plan was presented to them last December.

Ashlar currently has 700 voting members not 400.


In a recent letter to members from Mr Scott, Medalist offered full ownership and control of the Colebee course (double Ashlar's land holdings of 144 hectares) and new facilities, worth about $25 million.

The combined Ashlar / Stonecutters landholdings combined do not come to 144 acres. Information provided lists Ashlar at 48 Hectares and the new Stonecutters golf course and course facilities at 56 Hectares (6 of which are unusable due to being an underground oil and gas pipeline)


But a senior Ashlar Club member (who preferred not be be named) said that most members would oppose the plan in its original form, which was merely a swap of assets, after learning from real estate agents that Ashlar would be worth $30 million after rezoning and subdivision approvals. Medalist in turn would take over the Ashlar site, said to have a value of $18 million, before possible rezoning for housing and commercial developments.


If the land is worth $18 Million and Ashlar is getting $10 Million in cash this is $28 Million. To say it will be worth $30 Million after rezoning then that leaves $2 Million in profit for the developers. Don't think so.

Not so Big Easy
10th March 2009, 08:58 AM
The concern for Ashlar members possibly opposing the 'swap', is should the proposal fall through then should the club be forced into drastic action several years down the track, what are they going to accept then? If Ashlar find themselves in a position whereby they have to take virtually any offer as a cash injection, then many developers might be willing to offer a lot less than the $18M value.

The question needs to be put forth to the members - what future does Ashlar have without the swap? and what future does it have if it takes the UPL proposal without any additional cash?

zipptopp
10th March 2009, 11:49 AM
I have to agree with Weekend Hacker, lots of misinformation in that article.

Ashlar members have received a email this morning outlining the details of the final proposal being put to the Urban Pacific Board. The proposal seems good for the club and I doubt it would be voted down by any sensible member. The club will struggle to survive where it is now.

Scottt
10th March 2009, 05:16 PM
I keep reading that, Zipptop. But people who know much more than I about such things say the financials aren't as bad as some people claim.

At the end of the day Blacktown is only going to continue to grow, and I think someone pretty careless would have to take the wheel for the club to just head off a cliff.

Is the first green still up to sh!t?

WeekendHacker
11th March 2009, 06:19 AM
I keep reading that, Zipptop. But people who know much more than I about such things say the financials aren't as bad as some people claim.

At the end of the day Blacktown is only going to continue to grow, and I think someone pretty careless would have to take the wheel for the club to just head off a cliff.

Is the first green still up to sh!t?
I think the main issue is if the club does not move fees will increase by the maximum 15% the clubs constitution will allow. This will take the yearly at Ashlar to nearly $1400.00 and with a large number of courses in need of members at a cheaper rate they will lose numbers which will impact on the books. Ashlar does not get through traffic to the clubhouse as it is hidden away and not too many peope know the club is there.

The first and fifth greens whilst improving are still sh!t.

Scottt
11th March 2009, 06:28 AM
Golfers know the club is there though.

With Cumberland now charging $1250 or so, it's hard to argue with the same $$$ at Ashlar.

Just depends how discerning people want to be. You could surely join Fox Hills for less, but then you have to play at Fox Hills all the bloody time :lol:

Has anyone seen Lynwood?

3oneday
11th March 2009, 06:31 AM
Has anyone seen Lynwood?
I haven't, but I heard it was opening 9 holes in July or so.

Apparently the clubhouse is spectacular, which it will need to be ! I simply cannot imagine playing a golf course regularly in western Sydney during summer with not a tree in sight !

Scottt
11th March 2009, 07:06 AM
And those riverplains get humid as a mofo. I grew up playing cricket on them and you just melt.

amanda
11th March 2009, 10:09 AM
who can trust journalists!

My understanding is that the UPL guys are getting jack of being stuffed around.

3oneday
11th March 2009, 10:13 AM
My understanding is that the UPL guys are getting jack of being stuffed around.well then maybe they should change businesses :lol:

Seriously, they are asking the average layperson to determine the future of their golf course ? I wouldn't think that to be an easy decision ?

amanda
11th March 2009, 12:55 PM
I agree it's not an easy decision that should be rushed - but the board (from an outsider's perspective) doesn't seem to know exactly what it wants to do.

Perhaps there is not consensus on the board? When you've got multiple agendas by Board members - it always makes things difficult (we've been there, done that with New Brighton!)

WeekendHacker
11th March 2009, 01:56 PM
I agree it's not an easy decision that should be rushed - but the board (from an outsider's perspective) doesn't seem to know exactly what it wants to do.

Perhaps there is not consensus on the board? When you've got multiple agendas by Board members - it always makes things difficult (we've been there, done that with New Brighton!)
Definitely nothing to do with board disharmony or differing agendas and the board has from day one had a plan and an agenda for this and they have stuck to thier guns throughout the negotiation period. The board as a whole knows this is a must for the longevity of Ashlar and for its members. The 2 UPL contacts Ashlar have been negotiating with had a 7 week break over the Christmas period which put pay to any negotiations at all for this period. The deal that has been agreed upon is much better for Ashlar than the original deals offerd by UPL and at the end of the day I do not think that a deal the size of this one would be completed in any sort of quickfire fashion. All myself and other members want is a date for the vote.

interested
2nd May 2009, 07:23 AM
I agree it's not an easy decision that should be rushed - but the board (from an outsider's perspective) doesn't seem to know exactly what it wants to do.

Perhaps there is not consensus on the board? When you've got multiple agendas by Board members - it always makes things difficult (we've been there, done that with New Brighton!)

Quote
"My understanding is that the UPL guys are getting jack of being stuffed around."

Perhaps people who dont know what there are talking about should just be keep there opinions to themselves :shock:

just
2nd May 2009, 07:32 AM
Perhaps people who dont know what there are talking about should just be keep there opinions to themselves :shock:

It's a shame that you don't heed your own advice.

amanda
2nd May 2009, 08:21 AM
Quote
"My understanding is that the UPL guys are getting jack of being stuffed around."

Perhaps people who dont know what there are talking about should just be keep there opinions to themselves :shock:

Welcome interested. My information came from the Sales Manager and Project Director at Stonecutters Ridge. Are you insinuating that they didn't know what was going on?

My latest info is that the Board has agreed to put a proposal to members in an EGM - not sure when that EGM will be.

3oneday
2nd May 2009, 06:31 PM
:confused: I thought the deal was off due to the economic climate ? ie, world wide stop to spending for the company wanting to buy Ashlar ???

amanda
3rd May 2009, 08:26 AM
Pete - not the last I heard. Mac Bank/Medallist apparently have secured funding for club house, golf course development already. Mind you - my most recent chat was last weekend - so something may have happened during the week.

I do know they are waiting until a certain number of blocks have settled before starting the clubouse - but DA is approved. I think 40 blocks have been sold but not all have settled (some have only just exchanged).

3oneday
3rd May 2009, 10:50 AM
Pete - not the last I heard. Mac Bank/Medallist apparently have secured funding for club house, golf course development already. Mind you - my most recent chat was last weekend - so something may have happened during the week.

I do know they are waiting until a certain number of blocks have settled before starting the clubouse - but DA is approved. I think 40 blocks have been sold but not all have settled (some have only just exchanged).
Yep, but I'm talking about the purchase of Ashlar. Stonecutters is developing sure, but Ashlar purchase has been postponed.

amanda
3rd May 2009, 06:10 PM
Really? I'll definitely make an enquiry to the NSW GM tomorrow after they have their weekly project meeting. Thanks for the tip :)

WeekendHacker
4th May 2009, 05:01 PM
Yep, but I'm talking about the purchase of Ashlar. Stonecutters is developing sure, but Ashlar purchase has been postponed.
Thats what I heard also. I believe it was put to the members of ashlar that "Due to the current economic climate UPL and Medallist have shelved all aquisitions until further notice. This means the ew curse development will continue but the land swap deal with ashlar has been temporarily put on hold". There is an agreed terms contract ready to go but is now on hold.

WeekendHacker
9th June 2009, 10:21 AM
Looks like this has now been officially kyboshed.

Letter sent to membership of Ashlar this month states that UPL has been given instructions not to proceed with the proposed land swap with Ashlar. Due to market conditions UPL cannot take on additional development risk with the acquisition of Ashlars land and the position to be reviewed over the next 18 months.

Interesting.........

3oneday
9th June 2009, 10:42 AM
Surprised Ashlar hasn't washed away :lol:

Scottt
9th June 2009, 05:55 PM
Looks like this has now been officially kyboshed.

Letter sent to membership of Ashlar this month states that UPL has been given instructions not to proceed with the proposed land swap with Ashlar. Due to market conditions UPL cannot take on additional development risk with the acquisition of Ashlars land and the position to be reviewed over the next 18 months.

Interesting.........

What's that saying again?

You snooze, you lose... something like that!

amanda
15th December 2009, 09:55 AM
Hi everyone,

I know the deal is off - but in case anyone is interested in how the Stonecutters Ridge course is going (very slowly) - I thought I'd update with some pics from about a month ago:

The 8th tee and fairway
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U0-cEzDBY-k/StAUWoESf9I/AAAAAAAAAZ8/ddKLHi8N0SI/s400/IMG_4616_1.JPG

Bunkering on the 8th
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U0-cEzDBY-k/SsLxpbk9LRI/AAAAAAAAAXc/1sTxboR5FRw/s400/IMG_4558_1.JPG

My understanding is that there will be 6 holes open for play some time next year - greens apparently were seeded but I don't see any green on them at the moment! I'll try and take some decent course pics when I'm out there next. No official word when 18 holes will be open

No word on when the big clubhouse will be built - I figure UPL will wait for the economy to really pick up.

Land sales are going ok and people start moving into newly constructed homes at the end of this week.

Andrew
15th December 2009, 10:23 AM
Amanda, you can see an updated aerial from mid November at www.nearmap.com

3oneday
15th December 2009, 02:09 PM
Did they stop altogether ? seems like they haven't progressed far at all.

amanda
15th December 2009, 03:20 PM
Andrew - thanks for the link.

Pete - I think for a while there was a pause while something was going on - but construction is back in full swing. Last I heard today - the plan is to open in mid 2011 (still a ways off). The greens have been seeded - just waiting for rain

Not so Big Easy
21st December 2009, 11:01 AM
Latest and maybe greatest...

Reportedly the developers UPL, are still keen to do a trade deal with Ashlar as UPL are developers not golf club managers (even though Troon could step in there), however by all reports, whatever proposal they do come to Ashlar with from time to time since mid 2009, is substantially less than what was discussed in the past, and subsequently many people believe the deal is completely off the table.

Obviously with Ashlar's current state with no clubhouse, and the potential that they can construct a nice clubhouse that can house all the necessary facilities to host revenue raising events (and hopefully profitable) such as corporate days and weddings etc. the deal that the developers would need to go Ashlar with, would have to be more lucrative than what they have 'offered' in the past. ie more than just a land swap.

I believe the developers would have less than 6 months to come to Ashlar with a final offer prior to Ashlar signing off on construction of a new clubhouse, because it would be ridiculous for Ashlar to entertain any deal with after they've spent a considerable amount of money on a new clubhouse. 8-)

3oneday
21st December 2009, 11:18 AM
But surely them walking would affect any insurance claim ? I doubt any insurance company would be handing them a cheque, rather they would be funding the new construction ?

Not so Big Easy
21st December 2009, 11:59 AM
I don't know the terms of their insurance policy, but I believe if the Stonecutters offer came to approval, perhaps there is the possibility of a cash settlement from the insurance company. Of course, it hypothetical, but still food for thought for the decision makers of Ashlar.

Not so Big Easy
28th June 2010, 04:27 PM
I don't know the terms of their insurance policy, but I believe if the Stonecutters offer came to approval, perhaps there is the possibility of a cash settlement from the insurance company. Of course, it hypothetical, but still food for thought for the decision makers of Ashlar.

The Ashlar / Stonecutters deal is back on the table. Obviously considering Ashlar's position of being able to build a new clubhouse to better match the course, the developers of Stonecutters felt they needed to sweeten the deal, and now come up with soemthing for the Ashlar members to assess and vote.

WeekendHacker
29th June 2010, 10:19 AM
vote is on for the 28th July and the percentage required for it has been dropped from 75% to 50%. should be a shoe in.

Grunt
29th June 2010, 10:24 AM
Anything extra that was not in last deal?

WeekendHacker
29th June 2010, 10:45 AM
With the insurance payout on the clubhouse they are going over with a few million in the bank so I believe that UPL have taken a cash amount off the table but have added that if the club is not making money after the first 12 or 24 months they will cough up some dollars to assist. Really this should not be an issue as if the board and secretary manager cannot make the only Norman course in Sydney work then they should be doing something other than running a golf club.

GolfBallWhackerGuy
29th June 2010, 02:45 PM
Would be a shame to lose the current Ashlar course. Its a decent layout and can be difficult if the greens played real fast.

markTHEblake
29th June 2010, 05:22 PM
vote is on for the 28th July and the percentage required for it has been dropped from 75% to 50%. should be a shoe in.

That seems unusual, you would think that there would be a vote required to change the % vote required;; ie an amendment to the constitution.

WeekendHacker
30th June 2010, 09:42 AM
i believe that a special amendment was made to the constitution when the last vote was to be done in 2009 that set the percentage to 75% but with a condition allowing the board to change it to a maximum of 50%.

GolfBallWhackerGuy
30th June 2010, 12:47 PM
If the votes come in at 50%, doesnt that mean its a stalemate?

Hawkers2008
30th June 2010, 03:39 PM
That seems unusual, you would think that there would be a vote required to change the % vote required;; ie an amendment to the constitution.

This transaction is about the disposition and acquisition of certain assets its not really about amending the constitution. The objects of the club (palying golf amongst other things) are not being affected its just a proposal to change location.

I assume the vote is to approve to disposal of certain club assets (ie the old course) and also that the current constitution only requires an ordinary resolution for such a motion.

Hawkers2008
30th June 2010, 03:40 PM
If the votes come in at 50%, doesnt that mean its a stalemate?

No it means the motion is lost. The motion needs a majority to be carried and if not carried its lost.

happy_golfer
2nd July 2010, 10:38 PM
i believe that a special amendment was made to the constitution when the last vote was to be done in 2009 that set the percentage to 75% but with a condition allowing the board to change it to a maximum of 50%.

My understanding is that since last time no one bothered to look up what was required. A 75% majority is still required to change the constitution, however this prorposed move is governed under the auspices of the Registered Clubs Act therefore only 51% majority is required. Also all nominated members are elligible to vote which would include 7 Day, 6 Day and 5 Day members including juniors and intermediate members. Social members are not nominated therefore not elligible to vote.

terrys
3rd July 2010, 08:10 AM
Is the word on the course confident that it will pass? Might be worth joining up as my second club.

happy_golfer
3rd July 2010, 01:19 PM
Is the word on the course confident that it will pass? Might be worth joining up as my second club.

hi terrys, the feeling is very confident. People have been quoting about 90% yes and can hardly name or know of any people that want to vote no. The only probelm seems to be one of complacency and not getting people to turn up on the night to vote. But now only a majority is required that should not be a problem.

3oneday
3rd July 2010, 06:05 PM
So when will Stone Cutters be 18 holes ? I heard the 9th isn't near the clubhouse too ?

Danieljc
3rd July 2010, 07:54 PM
The 9th and 10th a a fair distance from the clubhouse I would say around 600m if not more and on top of that from the masterplan it looks like you will have to walk down the main street to leave the 9th or start at the 10th.

April is when all 18 are meant to be open.

This is meant to be there masterplan have a look as it shows the lay out of the holes and how much more work they have to do.

http://www.webpromos.com.au/stonecuttersridge/sales_tool/index.html

terrys
4th July 2010, 05:16 PM
nearmaps shows 6 holes look to be finished.

Thanks for the info happy_golfer. Sounds like it might be worth a punt.

markTHEblake
4th July 2010, 05:32 PM
I'll be at Stonecutters next saturday, i'll take some pics.

Grunt
4th July 2010, 05:35 PM
I'll be at Stonecutters next saturday, i'll take some pics.

You visiting the Whites.

markTHEblake
4th July 2010, 05:39 PM
its a belly dancing convention.

Grunt
4th July 2010, 05:56 PM
ohh Does Mr White actually have a belly?

3oneday
5th July 2010, 09:56 AM
One of the guys I played with Satdy said they will be cutting off membership by the vote (or inside a week or two), so if you join now you get 14 months and a free ride into the new course.

To join Stone Cutters if you are too slow off the mark could be 4 or 5 k.

Eldrick
5th July 2010, 11:01 AM
is there any provision in the new deal to cap the membership prices after everyone moves to stonecutters?

GolfBallWhackerGuy
5th July 2010, 11:04 AM
One of the guys I played with Satdy said they will be cutting off membership by the vote (or inside a week or two), so if you join now you get 14 months and a free ride into the new course.

To join Stone Cutters if you are too slow off the mark could be 4 or 5 k.


Gday, how much is it to join Ashlar and will they accept new members considering what is on the plate?

3oneday
5th July 2010, 11:30 AM
is there any provision in the new deal to cap the membership prices after everyone moves to stonecutters?
all my info is 2nd hand, I believe that it will be capped for a few years.

Gday, how much is it to join Ashlar and will they accept new members considering what is on the plate?
No idea, upwards of $1200 I think. They can't refuse them I would have thought. It's been on the table before ;)

Danieljc
5th July 2010, 02:41 PM
Membership for 6 day member cost $1260 and $200 on that goes on the bar tab

3oneday
5th July 2010, 02:43 PM
Membership for 6 day member cost $1260 and $200 on that goes on the bar tab

7 day allows Saturdays though ? 6 days wouldn't.

Eldrick
5th July 2010, 02:54 PM
yep according to the website
it was $1475ish for 7 day rights
and i don't think 5/6 days gets full voting rights

KristianJ
5th July 2010, 04:44 PM
Definitely worth thinking about with the current situation on the table, but I can't say I'd pay that much if the club was staying at its current site. Not a bad track by any means, but not $1.5K worthy IMO.

terrys
5th July 2010, 05:36 PM
I enquire about country membership today. Asked about playing and voting rights on the deal. Never heard anything back.

happy_golfer
8th July 2010, 03:48 PM
is there any provision in the new deal to cap the membership prices after everyone moves to stonecutters?

Fees will be capped at a maximum of 5%pa at Stonecutters if the deal is successful. Currently the max increase is 15%. However, given their will be cash in the bank from the insurance from the clubhouse fire and also given that the place will be more than likely to be profitable from day one (when Troon golf looked at it they apparently said if you cannot make $1.2m clear a year your not trying) any Board that puts forward an increase in fees even if it is capped at 5%, well I would be asking why that Board should remain.

Hawkers2008
8th July 2010, 07:28 PM
This course will cost much much more to run than ashlar does. So other things being equal eventually membership fees will have to go up significantly. Of ocurse if there is an accompanying pokie palace or other busienss operations that make a mint then maybe member fees can be constrained.

happy_golfer
10th July 2010, 09:49 PM
This course will cost much much more to run than ashlar does. So other things being equal eventually membership fees will have to go up significantly. Of ocurse if there is an accompanying pokie palace or other busienss operations that make a mint then maybe member fees can be constrained.

On the cost side, initially being brand new I would have thought the costs would generally be limited to maintenance. And I do not think all things are equal because the ability to generate income is greater through corporate days, visitors, functions, etc. You also have the income on $4.5m sitting in a term deposit somewhere to consider as well.

Grunt
11th July 2010, 06:09 AM
Any idea how the residents of Stonecutters feel having their relatively exclusive course being opened up to all?

Amanda, was it part of the sale that made you choose to build there?

amanda
11th July 2010, 02:39 PM
Hey Grant! I know many owners and some don't care - mostly because they're not golfers! However - many are hopeful about the Ashlar deal and that they bring with them good management to keep the club going. Everyone wants the golf course to succeed - I know some owners are existing members at Twin Creeks and would like the same sort of exclusivity - but I can't see that happening in today's economics.

We knew that the land swap deal was on the table when we bought - however I think only those who play golf and are on the web would know about the swap. People who buy land automatically get 1 yr social membership to the club - access to tennis courts, swimming pools, and unlimited access to the golf course outside of competition times. There are a few such as Brad & I who negotiated for 1 year full 7 day playing membership to the club for each of us, and then we're able to pay yearly subs like any other members.

The upkeep of gardens, parks in the area is paid for by the family social memberships to the clubhouse (expected to be around $400-600/pa). My understanding is that this is also supposed to give you access to the gym (last I heard was supposed to be Fitness First, Club One55 in style)

What the developers are a bit ticked off about is some Ashlar members coming to the sales office and demanding discounts on land because of the proposed golf course swap. They were essentially told to go jump!

At the moment 6 holes are ready for play - however there is severe frost damage from many mornings like this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U0-cEzDBY-k/TCpx8AwqyII/AAAAAAAAA7U/aLdwaq9P6uE/s400/IMG_6542_1.jpg

Grunt
11th July 2010, 02:58 PM
Good to hear it is not going to create an us & them culture, Amanda

amanda
11th July 2010, 03:23 PM
I don't think there will be enough land owners at the outset to create an us (landowners) vs them (original Ashlar members) - hopefully the members will be nice!

More importantly - I have my fingers and toes crossed that the management will have sufficient experience and knowledge to run the club well (if Stonecutters Ridge doesn't make squillions off functions/weddings & corporate days - then they're idiots)

Hawkers2008
11th July 2010, 04:40 PM
On the cost side, initially being brand new I would have thought the costs would generally be limited to maintenance. And I do not think all things are equal because the ability to generate income is greater through corporate days, visitors, functions, etc. You also have the income on $4.5m sitting in a term deposit somewhere to consider as well.

I hope they are really successful. It will be a big management challenge to move from being a suburban working mans golf club to running an upscale resort style establishment. On the one hand you don't want to alienate existing members but you want the cash from corporates and others. Also suspect that Ashlar moving in might not staisfy all the expectations of property owners. The demographics and service demands of the three groups might not be a good fit together, eg existing members want pokies and cheap meals, corporates and residents might be less enthralled with pokies and want high quality food offerings. Members might not be to happy if there access to the course is reduced to help balance the books.

In terms of costs, its many more hectares of ground to be maintained. Also instead of being a more or less square block its laid out in kind of circular loops for each nine. Add to that the greater number of bunkers and other features that will need to be maintained. All up it will take a lot more labour hours to maintained.

The $4.5m is a great buffer and if they can keep that capital intact the reveue it generates will be a good headstart to allow the club to make a quid.
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happy_golfer
12th July 2010, 05:50 AM
I hope they are really successful. It will be a big management challenge to move from being a suburban working mans golf club to running an upscale resort style establishment. On the one hand you don't want to alienate existing members but you want the cash from corporates and others. Also suspect that Ashlar moving in might not staisfy all the expectations of property owners. The demographics and service demands of the three groups might not be a good fit together, eg existing members want pokies and cheap meals, corporates and residents might be less enthralled with pokies and want high quality food offerings. Members might not be to happy if there access to the course is reduced to help balance the books.

In terms of costs, its many more hectares of ground to be maintained. Also instead of being a more or less square block its laid out in kind of circular loops for each nine. Add to that the greater number of bunkers and other features that will need to be maintained. All up it will take a lot more labour hours to maintained.

The $4.5m is a great buffer and if they can keep that capital intact the reveue it generates will be a good headstart to allow the club to make a quid.
\

Agree with you on all counts.