Pro Shop Protocol

[rick3003]

OK here's the deal. I offer a member here a price for a certain club and we agree and exchange bank details/postal address etc.

Roughly 3 hours hours later I get an email asking whether I have paid as another member is interested and would be easier to sell to him as he is local etc.

My reply is "not as yet but I am still keen".

I then get told sorry but the deal is off.

Thoughts...........................

[markTHEblake]

Name the seller, that will fix the problem.

and that is why I reckon all offers to buy and accept should be done in the forum rather than PM. if its done that way, this kind of thing wouldnt happen.

[PeteyD]

If you haven't paid it is not really yours, but pretty sucky to reneg on a deal.

[poidda]

A verbal contract is as good as any isn't it?!?!

[scarfie1]

I'll admit, it was me. I f**ked up. I'm not usually like that. I agreed to two people, thinking Rick won't mind as I'm sure he'll understand that it's more convenient for me to sell local and not incurr expensive postage and packaging costs. Plus Rick already has a Tour edge exotics and I thought I'd give another member a chance to hit the finest 3 wood on the planet. I sincerely apologise Rick.

[Grunt]

All deals to be done in public. No PM's

[Moe Norman]

poor form, but understand the reasoning.

postage is such a pain.

PM deals do suck!

[PeteyD]

Yea postage etc is a major pain in the butt.

[AndyP]

I'm just waiting for Jack to hear about this.

[Grunt]

If it is that big a deal don't offer to ship, pick up only. Really have to set the rules and stick to them. Set a line in the sand and no one would have a problem. It is the fact that the sale was good until a easier offer was made that really sucks.

[Courty]

Poor form, IMO. If terms have been agreed, it's as good as sold.

[Eag's]

I'm just waiting for Jack to hear about this.

I was just thinking the same thing :roll:

[Moe Norman]

generally the best option is to have the clause "pickup beats post"

this is a common clause I see on other forums.

[Grunt]

generally the best option is to have the clause "pickup beats post"

this is a common clause I see on other forums.

But Moe how long does the Pick up guy have to put in a bid? Seems to encourage guzumping if you ask me.

[PeteyD]

Just remember it is an informal marketplace, and I think most of us would like to keep it like that.

[scarfie1]

Look, I try an offer pretty good prices on my gear, and generally ship for free on top of that. If the buyer pays for postage it's a different story. Plus when I get an offer below my sale price, I'm taking another hit. So when the second person offers nearer my sale price and they're going to pick it up, naturally I much prefer that option. But I have learned my lesson, in future I will set the details clearer in my for sale post.

[Courty]

Look, I try an offer pretty good prices on my gear, and generally ship for free on top of that. If the buyer pays for postage it's a different story. Plus when I get an offer below my sale price, I'm taking another hit. So when the second person offers nearer my sale price and they're going to pick it up, naturally I much prefer that option. But I have learned my lesson, in future I will set the details clearer in my for sale post.

If the original price was too low, you shouldn't have accepted it.

[Moe Norman]

if you have done a deal via PM, you need to update the main thread ASAP.

I doubt there is anyone here that would deliberately gazump another forum member.

So pickup beats post in threads, but if someone offers asking price + postage then the bidding really should be finished....

[kpac]

I think it's fine, informal sale theard and should be kept that way, it was to avoid the of shipping around the country, understandable.






;)

[TS]

Scarfie1.

When you were selling a range-finder a few weeks back. I was interested in it, ask ALO to check it out for me. ALO was the first one to express an interest, but you sold it to someone else instead. I consider that to be poor form as well.

[Moe Norman]

Rule #1

Don't be a prick

No other rules.

[perci]

Nice Pick up Blakey!

But on a serious note a gentleman's agreement should hold up especially on a site like this.

[rick3003]

I understand that postage is a pain in the preverbial but a deal is a deal.

The was an offer and it was accepeted. End of story!

[Grunt]

Rule #1

Don't be a prick

No other rules.

Got it in one Moe, that should be in the Forum Rules.

Statement #2 should be "Pricks will be found out."

[Courty]

I understand that postage is a pain in the preverbial but a deal is a deal.

The was an offer and it was accepeted. End of story!

I agree 110% (except for the typos ;))

[perci]

Scarfie1.

When you were selling a range-finder a few weeks back. I was interested in it, ask ALO to check it out for me. ALO was the first one to express an interest, but you sold it to someone else instead. I consider that to be poor form as well.

Not realy in my opinion an expression of interest is not an offer or an agreement.

[PeteyD]

$$ talk. Although once the deal is at the bank account / address stage it I would expect it to be honoured, even if it was a lowball offer.

[Grunt]

What happens when 2 lots of money has been transfered? Have to stick to the fundamentals, if you accept an offer that is it!

[scarfie1]

Scarfie1.

When you were selling a range-finder a few weeks back. I was interested in it, ask ALO to check it out for me. ALO was the first one to express an interest, but you sold it to someone else instead. I consider that to be poor form as well.

I hope you taking the piss here. Firstly I hardly remember if ALO did express an interest or not, and so what if he might have. Expression of interest doesn't mean jack.

[poidda]

Well on a similar/different note, I "made a sale" about a 5 weeks ago to a buyer and they didn't have the cash at the time so agreed to pay $100 until finalised. Well 5 weeks later I have only received $100, and recent PMs have been ignored. Where do I stand? I could do with the cash now to re-invest.

[Grunt]

Well on a similar/different note, I "made a sale" about a 5 weeks ago to a buyer and they didn't have the cash at the time so agreed to pay $100 until finalised. Well 5 weeks later I have only received $100, and recent PMs have been ignored. Where do I stand? I could do with the cash now to re-invest.

More Poor form but this time on the other side of the deal.

[PeteyD]

Settle down Grunt, that is not what happened. And he has learnt his lesson. It is an informal marketplace that is basically self governing, so lets not go making rules we do not need. From a legal standpoint there is no contract until something changes hands (ie money).

This refers to the two lots of money tranfered post.

Poidda give em back the $100 and put it back for sale.

[scarfie1]

Gees, you guys like to hammer em dead hear don't ya. How about I'm sorry, my bad, won't happen again. I've traded with numerous people on here, all without a hicup, shit happens sometimes.

What have you really lost out here Rick, did I take your money and run? A bad call on my part, that was it.

[Courty]

What happens when 2 lots of money has been transfered?

WTF? Nobody here is stupid enough to go that far.

[Courty]

Well on a similar/different note, I "made a sale" about a 5 weeks ago to a buyer and they didn't have the cash at the time so agreed to pay $100 until finalised. Well 5 weeks later I have only received $100, and recent PMs have been ignored. Where do I stand? I could do with the cash now to re-invest.

That payment is commonly called a 'deposit', and in the event that the sale falls through, the seller keeps the deposit.

[Grunt]

Wasn't meaning anything to do with this deal. Just a thing that may happen if the no post beats post offer is in play.

[markTHEblake]

Where do I stand? I could do with the cash now to re-invest.

I'd say you can pocket the $100, he has renegged on the deal and you have lost your sale, potentially you may have lost more than $100

But seeings as you are a gentlemen you would;
- resell the item., if sold then give the $100 back less any loss you made when compared to the 1st sale

[poidda]

That payment is commonly called a 'deposit', and in the event that the sale falls through, the seller keeps the deposit.

Sorry the agreement was "to pay $100 per week until finalised"

[Eag's]

Wasn't meaning anything to do with this deal. Just a thing that may happen if the no post beats post offer is in play.

Grant, you are thinking way to hard about this one mate :-?

[PeteyD]

That payment is commonly called a 'deposit', and in the event that the sale falls through, the seller keeps the deposit.

Not really legal. costs can be taken out of the deposit but balance should be returned.

[Courty]

Just a thing that may happen if the no post beats post offer is in play.

So you would xfer cash to someone else's account without checking with them to see if the item is still for sale?

[Grunt]

So you would xfer cash to someone else's account without checking with them to see if the item is still for sale?
You would if you thought you had the sale. Wouldn't you?

[Courty]

Sorry the agreement was "to pay $100 per week until finalised"

Ok, but if there's been no contact for 5 weeks, then my original comment stands. Re-listing the item might prompt the buyer to respond to your PM's.

[Webster]

worst thread ever...

[poidda]

I'm not to bothered for the time being, but wouldn't mind getting it sorted. Will give the buyer until the champs.

[Courty]

You would if you thought you had the sale. Wouldn't you?

Did you read what I just posted?


So you would xfer cash to someone else's account without checking with them to see if the item is still for sale?

[perci]

[QUOTE=scarfie1;186851] I've traded with numerous people on here, all without a hicup,



I can vouch for that,the several deals iv'e had with Scarfie have been great!

[Jarro]

The only way to fix this is to place a large cash donation into the Moderators paypal account

[Grunt]

Did you read what I just posted?
Yeah but in Rick's 1st post says he had exchanged bank details, was only the fact that he had not processed the transaction that it was not paid.

[Eag's]

The only way to fix this is to place a large cash donation into the Moderators paypal account

:lol: was waiting for you to chime in ;)

[prmeier]

Have to say that I have done a number of deals with members here and only ever had one problem which was partially sorted out. Think we have to honour an ozgolfers agreement.

Can certainly vouch for Scarfie. Has always been great to deal with. He has apologised for his mistake and I'm sure there is a lesson learnt. Think we should let up on him.

[Courty]

Can certainly vouch for Scarfie. Has always been great to deal with. He has apologised for his mistake and I'm sure there is a lesson learnt. Think we should let up on him.

I'm not having a go at Scarfie or anyone else, but I think we all need to be thinking along the same lines with these sales.

[AndyP]

I'm not to bothered for the time being, but wouldn't mind getting it sorted. Will give the buyer until the champs.Maybe you should start calling.

Do you know if the PMs have been read? You can track them if you check a box before sending.

[Courty]

Do you know if the PMs have been read? You can track them if you check a box before sending.

Really? That should be in the Forum Tips thread.

[BrisVegas]

I say re-list the clubs poidda. Sounds like the buyer is having money trouble. Like blakey said, if you get the asking price for them, then send back the $100.

[Webster]

bring back the 20 posts rule before you can sell!

[perci]

20 Fence Posts?

[Choppa]

I think we should just get rid of the Pro Shop. That would fix it.

[Fishman Dan]

generally the best option is to have the clause "pickup beats post"

this is a common clause I see on other forums.

Don't necessarily agree with that. Put "can't be arsed posting it" in the ad.

This bloke certainly makes friends easy. Perhaps another reason why he prefers to play alone?

[goughy]

I've dealt with several people on here with no issues what so ever. I guess it comes down to treating it like you were selling it to your mate, whether you know them or not.

Considering the amount of stuff sold here, I would bet you could count the troubled sales/purchases on a butchers left hand (they usually are missing the pinkie). In most if not all cases I bet the probs are communication based.

Suffice to say, it's an open market, we're not gonna go all freaky on it. It's just here to help offload stuff or pick it up. It's up to yourselves to keep it running smooth, which it does for the most part.

It was a good question to bring up rick just to get things out in the open and have the opinions of people out there.

And remember, communication is your friend! Dr Phil out!!!

[Jono]

Scarfie1.

When you were selling a range-finder a few weeks back. I was interested in it, ask ALO to check it out for me. ALO was the first one to express an interest, but you sold it to someone else instead. I consider that to be poor form as well.

TS,

What about a fella who says he wants to buy, makes the buyer bring the club to his house, and THEN tells him he doesn't want it any more? Pretty poor form, don't you think? ;)

BTW, you couldn't have been that interested in the range finder if you got ALO to buy it for you. :lol:

[Jono]

Scarfie, I understand why you did it, but IMO when a deal is done, then it is done. 8)

Rick, what are you doing? You are going after the Exotics like I go after the Auroras ... :roll: :lol:

[Moe Norman]

I have dealt with Scarfie, had no issues. But would have been annoyed if the deal fell through after it was agreed.

Poidda - does the 'purchaser' have the item they have paid the $100 deposit on, or have you held onto it until full payment is made?

If you still have the clubs, refund the money. If you don't, out them!

[3oneday]

I've always been first in best dressed, if you want to sell to the highest bidder either say that or use ebay.

I have had instances where I have been pm'd within 5 minutes by two prospective buyers, and it would have been easier for me to sell to the 2nd bidder... if you do the wrong thing you will invariably be found out.

[Courty]

I've always been first in best dressed

And that's how it should be.

[Moe Norman]

not if its a lowball - which happens alot.

(especially via PM....)

[just]

Is this finished yet? It was tiresome after the first page. And pick the Jack fanboys-Jack's picked on scarfie so lets all follow suit.

[perci]

And their is always Dibs if the original punter pulls out!

[perci]

Is this finished yet? It was tiresome after the first page. And pick the Jack fanboys-Jack's picked on scarfie so lets all follow suit.


Who's Jack?

[just]

Who's Jack?

A sailor-Jack Tar or perhaps some fella who fell down and broke his crown and rick indicates that he thinks scarfie was jack. Take your pick.

[mikezone13]

Poor form by scarfie, but in dealings with him ( no clubs bought, but other communciation) seems like a pretty reasonable bloke.

Positively he ahs come out said "oops, I stuffed up, sorry" I'm sure it won;t happen again.

As a general response to protocal, it's first in first served if the asking price has been met, any offers below asking price and the seller has the option of course of waiting for the best deal. Once bank/address details are exchanged the sale is as final as can be in my eyes.

And poidda, as moe said, if the person took your club/s and hasn't paid anymore cash do the forum a favour and out them. If not give them their money back less a 10% restocking fee and relist them ;)

[3oneday]

not if its a lowball - which happens alot.

(especially via PM....)yes, I agree, lowballers get no replies at all :)

[markTHEblake]

As a general response to protocal, it's first in first served if the asking price has been met, any offers below asking price and the seller has the option of course of waiting for the best deal.

Yes the seller has the option of waiting for a better price, but not when he has accepted a price, a deal is a deal - in fact it is a legally binding contract.

If the seller wants to hold out for better price, then hold off the sale. Dont shake hands on it then reneg. If someone did that to me, then I would be calling him a rude word.

[PeteyD]

What? A Jarro? ;)

[mikezone13]

Yes the seller has the option of waiting for a better price, but not when he has accepted a price, a deal is a deal - in fact it is a legally binding contract.

If the seller wants to hold out for better price, then hold off the sale. Dont shake hands on it then reneg. If someone did that to me, then I would be calling him a rude word.

Agree... I thought that was what I was saying? :)

[goughy]

Agree... I thought that was what I was saying? :)

I thought you were saying that you like to wear womens underwear!!! :mrgreen: ;)

[addamsmith]

6 months ago i was buying this car for my wife as a suprise, I took the car for a test drive, paid a RACQ guy to come over and have a look over the car, Well when I arrived with my wife to pick up the car after blindd folding her and telling the kids we are off to pick up mums new car. I got there and there was a guy driving off in it. I said what has happened and he said sorry mate the deal is off that guy offered me $500.00 more. I could have dropped him on his arse then and there, But you know what at the end of the day its just a car !
I have bought from Scarfie and so have my students here on the coast with no problems at all.
He is one of the best guy's I have meet in the golfing industry.
In the past I have had people pull out on deals with me and sure i have been Pissed off "But its just a club"

This place is a friendly place and that is why i keep coming back , let's not turn it into a BSG forum.
Scafie may have made a mistake and i am sure from reading his post that he feels like shit.
Why don't we all go and grab a beer from the fridge and Kiss and make up.

Addam
P.s Does anyone have a good car for sale ;) Ha Ha

[Fishman Dan]

yes, I agree, lowballers get no replies at all :)

Let's no forget there was an agreement in this scenario. Lowball or not, the moment you say "Let's do it", you shouldn't pull out.

It's like the year 10 cast party all over again.

[Johnny Canuck]

Don't necessarily agree with that. Put "can't be arsed posting it" in the ad.

This bloke certainly makes friends easy. Perhaps another reason why he prefers to play alone?

Shit Dan, you were so good all week, I knew you couldn't hold out! Welcome back!

[Jarro]

So after all this debate have we come to a conclusion ?

Do we need to amend the rules of the pro-shop at all ?

I think not. Scarfie obviously realises he stuffed up, and if he does again he will be named and shamed.

Please don't forget either, if any of you get rooted around by someone in the pro-shop, feel free to send us a PM so we can warn others about potential trouble-makers.

[kpac]

Scarfie isn't a trouble maker, i've delt with him now twice and he's very good - just a one off stuff up, we've all stuffed up something at somepoint. And yes it is "just a club" at the end of the day.

[Webster]

Is this finished yet? It was tiresome after the first page. And pick the Jack fanboys-Jack's picked on scarfie so lets all follow suit.

I wasn't picking on anyone. I was merely asking a series of well constructed questions in order to establish the facts surrounding a rather dubious par round claim (and I was correct)

Jack.

[3oneday]

Let's no forget there was an agreement in this scenario. Lowball or not, the moment you say "Let's do it", you shouldn't pull out. if there is a lowball offer that isn't replied to, and someone offers the correct price, the lowballer walks (unanswered ;)).


Scarfie isn't a trouble maker, and yes it is "just a club" at the end of the day.I don't think this is the issue, and I can't see where this has been said :)

enjoy your club though :lol:

Can everyone stick to a gentlemens rule ? If yes then put it to a vote, it would be more like an "in the spirit of the game" type rule because ultimately it falls on the seller to be truthful 8)

[goughy]

That's not a thread'Jack', that's a thread'Tack'. He's trying to tack this one onto another one!

[Fishman Dan]

So after all this debate have we come to a conclusion ?

Do we need to amend the rules of the pro-shop at all ?

I think not. Scarfie obviously realises he stuffed up, and if he does again he will be named and shamed.

Please don't forget either, if any of you get rooted around by someone in the pro-shop, feel free to send us a PM so we can warn others about potential trouble-makers.

Jarro - the issue is that he realised 'he stuffed up' before he accepted Rick's offer. From then on he was digging a deeper hole.

I admire Rick's initial post in setting out the situation in anonymity, but lets face it, it wasn't hard to work out who it was. Scarfie didn't do anyone other than himself favours by putting his hand up.


if there is a lowball offer that isn't replied to, and someone offers the correct price, the lowballer walks (unanswered ;)).

And common sense prevails. Where is A-Lo these days?

[3oneday]

And common sense prevails. Where is A-Lo these days?I've never been lowballed by alo 8)

[poidda]

enjoy your club though :lol:

Can everyone stick to a gentlemens rule ? If yes then put it to a vote, it would be more like an "in the spirit of the game" type rule because ultimately it falls on the seller to be truthful 8)


Also, if I was the second buyer, I'd pass the club on as well. Kama can be a bitch some times.

[rick3003]

Just to clear a few things up. Scarfie was asking $160 shipped. His ad states feel free to make an offer. I offered him $150. I wouldnt call this a low ball offer. Yes it is just a club but it is the principle. Scarfie was decent enought to fess up and has apologised. Apology accepted.
KPAC - Dibs on the exotics!

[poidda]

Poidda - does the 'purchaser' have the item they have paid the $100 deposit on, or have you held onto it until full payment is made?

If you still have the clubs, refund the money. If you don't, out them!

The buyer offered to pick them up a month ago, but I wasn't home. Will give them until the champs.

[Jarro]

You clowns buy too much stuff.
Stop buying and the problem is solved.

yes Blake :roll:

[Moe Norman]

Just to clear a few things up. Scarfie was asking $160 shipped. His ad states feel free to make an offer. I offered him $150. I wouldnt call this a low ball offer. Yes it is just a club but it is the principle. Scarfie was decent enought to fess up and has apologised. Apology accepted.
KPAC - Dibs on the exotics!bugger, I was interested in that too if its the 3 wood?

[Jarro]

The buyer offered to pick them up a month ago, but I wasn't home. Will give them until the champs.

Poidda, just wondering how you got on with this deal ?

[BJL82]

Just to clear a few things up. Scarfie was asking $160 shipped. His ad states feel free to make an offer. I offered him $150. I wouldnt call this a low ball offer. Yes it is just a club but it is the principle. Scarfie was decent enought to fess up and has apologised. Apology accepted.
KPAC - Dibs on the exotics!

I wouldn't call it lowballing either but if you'd just paid the asking price all of this could of been avoided.... If you wanted the club that badly, whats an extra 10 bucks...

[rick3003]

I wouldn't call it lowballing either but if you'd just paid the asking price all of this could of been avoided.... If you wanted the club that badly, whats an extra 10 bucks...
Thanks for the hot tip. Lets not go there again hey.

[Johnny Canuck]

nice way to make yourself welcome. bring up stuff from october and offer a b.s. opinion.

[AndyP]

Actually, jarro dug it up, so should I ban him?

[Choppa]

Yes. Jarro is a wanker.

[Choppa]

:)

[Jarro]

STFU spew-boy :p

[Choppa]

It's the love you get from Ozgolf that keeps me coming back :)

[BJL82]

nice way to make yourself welcome. bring up stuff from october and offer a b.s. opinion.

Like someone already said, blame Jarro ;)

Thought my opinion was pretty valid, except for the fact that this is an old thread... Refer to above and my apologies.

[3oneday]

Thought my opinion was pretty valid, except for the fact that this is an old thread... maybe, maybe not, if someone said price ONO that leaves it open to offer. I guess I also don't feel $10 is a lowball. Hang around here for a while and you'll experience lowball in it's purest form :lol:

[macleod]

OK here's the deal. I offer a member here a price for a certain club and we agree and exchange bank details/postal address etc.

Roughly 3 hours hours later I get an email asking whether I have paid as another member is interested and would be easier to sell to him as he is local etc.

My reply is "not as yet but I am still keen".

I then get told sorry but the deal is off.

Thoughts...........................

First in, best dressed, your deal was solid. If they have agreed to sell to you, then it was not a problem in the first place. those reasons don't gel unless he had some exceptional circumstance i.e. needed cash for hash etc. ;)

Make it clear in your sell post that you will only do local sales if you have an issue or want to fiddle in PM's with 'wheeler and dealers' - we know some people try to cut other's grass..

Go with etiquette. Make it common practice to specify if you'll sell to other states.

I've had this happen, sometimes the original buyer needs to back out for plausible reasons which i am OK with depending on what i know of them. I am always open to a rational argument and can discuss terms or even keep the item aside for you.

we all have big scary stuff happen in our lives.

kook what happened with my recent screwup here - i sold the TP, poor timbo paid me, i then had my internet AND phone line cut for 8 days and my uncle went to hospital with a leaking heart valve and my personal life had been a mess. absolute mess of emotion and not thinking straight.

i remembered to post one other club to a member but since i don't get online much at work, and work has been crazy, i completely forgot the poor bugger had paid me and I now feel terrible.

mea culpa - big time - but at least when i agree to a price i don't screw a person around. usually when i screwup, i throw in a few balls or something or go courier etc.

[Jarro]

What are the pro-shop rules regarding buyers failing to pay for an item :roll:

[Choppa]

That's ok mate, as long as the buyer gets the club before not paying ;)

[3oneday]

What are the pro-shop rules regarding buyers failing to pay for an item :roll:thou shalt not give club prior to payment ?

dickhead :p

[Iain]

thou shalt not give club prior to payment ?

We have a winner!!! :mrgreen:

[Jarro]

thou shalt not give club prior to payment ?

dickhead :p

Correct.

I shall now consider ALL people who buy clubs from me NOT friends and indeed customers.

[3oneday]

Your point ?


:lol:

[poidda]

Correct.

I shall now consider ALL people who buy clubs from me NOT friends and indeed customers.

Cust remember. The customer is always right!

[Fishman Dan]

What are the pro-shop rules regarding buyers failing to pay for an item :roll:

Depends if there was ever any intention to pay ;)

You're just waaaaay too nice and trusting J-Ro.

[3oneday]

:p

[3oneday]

You're just waaaaay too nice and trusting J-Ro.
:confused:

:p

[Jarro]

Depends if there was ever any intention to pay ;)

You're just waaaaay too nice and trusting J-Ro.

Must be :roll:

Whatever happened to the good old days when someones word was good enough ?

I remember hackin' jim sending me a Scotty Cameron putter once ... he simply said 'pay me when you're ready' i know you wont screw me around :shock:

[Choppa]

And you showed him by never paying right :)

[Jarro]

You're a really dull boy Chop-Chop :roll:

Of course i paid him ... i ain't no **** !

[markTHEblake]

I shall now consider ALL people who buy clubs from me NOT friends and indeed customers.

Lending money (or giving credit) to friends is a good way to lose the money and the friend.

Sure its OK to spot a mate a bill or two he is out of cash but only if its an amount that your prepared to write off as lost. If your not prepared, your friend is not a friend because he is asking for too much.


Whatever happened to the good old days when someones word was good enough ?

Down the toilet with all the other social standards that are slipping or lost. But you do realise verbal agreements are legally binding? You can take action through Small Claims court and get an order for you money.

[3oneday]

take action through Small Claims court and get an order for you money.seems appropriate ;)


:lol:

[Jarro]

Hardy har har :roll: