Kooindah Waters -Yuk

[miro]

So we went and played Kooindah Waters on the weekend with high hopes along for the ride.

Given the NSW crowd have their stroke comp up there in a few weeks I thought I would let you know what you are in for.

2 highlights / comments.

1. This is Craig Parry's first course design -lets fervently hope its his last. Clearly he enjoys hidden water hazards, tee shots where there is little indication of where the hole goes and visually dull hole designs. It probably didn't help that the land it is built upon would appear to be a swamp -and that is the way it should have been left.

2. The third hole is without doubt the worst golf hole I have ever seen. If it weren't for the map they give you it would not be possible to work out where to hit the ball. Even with the map you will stand on the tee for 5 minutes in disbelief muttering to yourself things like "it can't be there", "surely I am supposed to play that fairway" etc etc. I almost don't want to go into further detail as it would spoil the surprise for the other guys about to play there but lets just say a 380 metre par 4 that requires a 3 iron off the tee to the corner of a near 90 degree dogleg which is not visible from the tee and which the fairway is about 25 metes wide with a hidden lake past the corner if you hit it to far leaving aabout 180- 200 metres to the green is not a good hole. In fact all the holes from 3 to 8 are pretty poor having been squeezed into a bit of land that really is only big enough for 3 or 4 holes not 5 or 6.

So there you have it - a course that I doubt I will ever bothering to drive and 1 hour to play again.

[amanda]

More importantly miro - what did you and alison shoot?

By your description I'm actually looking forward to the course - lots of hidden surprises with a good dose of thinking required :)

[AndyP]

Do you feel that the course has been designed keeping in mind future compromisation by the increasing average distance of shots?

[miro]

More importantly miro - what did you and alison shoot?

By your description I'm actually looking forward to the course - lots of hidden surprises with a good dose of thinking required :)

Amanda,

I actually donlt think it is a course that "asks you questions" other than "what the hell am I supposed to do here".

Alison shot 6 over which was better than I did :)! (third loss off the stick to her and counting).

I actually suspect it is a much better course for women as much of the "where do I go", "where has the course gone", "oh a swamp in the middle of the fairway" affects longer hitters.

[miro]

Do you feel that the course has been designed keeping in mind future compromisation by the increasing average distance of shots?

Not really. The course is only 6,050 metres so it hasn't addressed the distance issue with more distance. They may have tried to address it by making hitting driver a very confusing option though. But it is a strange course that on half the holes says to you -hit an iron because at least I have some idea where it might land because if I hit driver who knows whats out there.

Also many of the Par 4's are of similar distance as are the Par 5's (there ar 5 of them). On a medium length course there is only one Par 4 of 300 meters or less -just indicating how little variation there is in the course.

Just a very average golf course -actually has some similarities to Northlakes.

[miro]

Amanda,

One other interesting hole for you -its rated number 9 on the card for women and its a .............................


72 metre par 3.

[miro]

G69,

I am guessing your answer is going to be -the land was crap, the housing was the priority therefore the course was compromised. That's fine with me as the purpose of the course is to sell houses. Given the quality of the course an hour further afield (in the hunter) I think it will struggle for "casual" golfers in the long term.

[miro]

Actually let me throw in a positive. I enjoyed the greens and surrounds,lots of chipping areas, nothing to silly. Good stuff.

[Ducky]

72 metre par 3.
Solid three iron, was it?

:lol:

[Fishman Dan]

Surely water is only hidden because you've never played there before? How many times have you played Camden Lakeside?

Did you play off the back-blocks or were the tees forward?

[Moe Norman]

Just a very average golf course -actually has some similarities to Northlakes. ouch - that is harsh

[miro]

Dan,

Played from the plates -I don't quite understand your Camden reference -I think Camden is much more visually straight forward.

[miro]

G69,

I honestly think the third needs to be played with a 3 iron from the tee and a 3 iron (maybe a 3 wood) into the green.

The other option is just to hit it straight at the copse of trees at the left (the inside of the dogleg) and simply hope it misses them and you know I think that is what most people would end up doing -very strange design. That is certainly how my wife played the hole and she was the only one in the group that scored Par.

However, I repeat my earlier criticism -standing on the tee the only apparent fairway is not the fiarway for the hole being played. If it wasn't for the scrappy trees which have been left in front of the tee on the line to the "other" fairway 99% of new golfers to the course would play the wrong hole. Even having decided the hole was "somehwere in that direction" it is still not apparent that the fairway is actually there.

[Fishman Dan]

Dan,

Played from the plates -I don't quite understand your Camden reference -I think Camden is much more visually straight forward.

Last time i played there i found water i never knew existed :roll: Cost me a friggin' fortune!

[miro]

Miro,
Are you also seriously saying don't build a course there at all and leave the site as a dump because a few holes aren't routed to your liking and there are a couple of hidden hazards ?

G69,

You will note I said in a prior post that I fully understand the course was built solely to sell houses and land -the fact that it is compromised because of that is life. It wasn't about building a golf course -it was about making $ out of a land subdivision which happened to be in the middle of a very low income swamp.

If it weren't for the fact that people pay more for golf course frontage homes the recent surge in course development would not exist -nor would the jobs of many of the designers some of whom can get a little precious about there recent work -even though the product they delivered is average but was perhaps the best that could be achieved given the land / development / epa constraints.

[amanda]

Amanda,

One other interesting hole for you -its rated number 9 on the card for women and its a .............................


72 metre par 3.

My gosh - I don't think I've ever hit anything less than 6 iron into a par 3 (around 100m) and it's even blown out to 3w before (170m).

I can see the reasoning behind the hole - men of any handicap are typically playing 6-9i into par 3s, while most women (the avg WGA handicap is in the 30s) will be hitting 3 or 5 wood.

How ironic would it be if I hit a hole-in-one and it wouldn't count because the hole is less than 100m!

[miro]

G69,

I agree with the sentiment -looks like a very tough piece of dirt upon which you have achieved a reasonable result. Obviously it won't win any awards but that is not why it was built.

[AndyP]

How ironic would it be if I hit a hole-in-one and it wouldn't count because the hole is less than 100m!......and not in a comp.

[amanda]

well - I thought that was the obvious part ;) but a lot of people may not know that a HIO must be over 100m to go on the official Australian register :)

[connico]

hmm didnt know that amanda...but still im not going to hit a hole in one anytime soon so it wouldnt matter to me lol

[BrisVegas]

If it weren't for the fact that people pay more for golf course frontage homes the recent surge in course development would not exist -nor would the jobs of many of the designers some of whom can get a little precious about there recent work -even though the product they delivered is average but was perhaps the best that could be achieved given the land / development / epa constraints.

Wow, now THAT is a sentence and a half! :shock:

If the designer did the find the best routing possible given all of the constraints, I can undersand why they'd be "precious" when criticized.

At Kooindah, do you think there was a better routing availlable on the given piece of land? ie. Could you have done better?

[3oneday]

At Kooindah, do you think there was a better routing availlable on the given piece of land? ie. Could you have done better?I think he said earlier that they squeezed about 4 holes into where there should be two or three ?? sounds to me as though they did what they could with what was available. No one wants a 15 hole golf course.

Pete

[miro]

Wow, now THAT is a sentence and a half! :shock:

If the designer did the find the best routing possible given all of the constraints, I can undersand why they'd be "precious" when criticized.

At Kooindah, do you think there was a better routing availlable on the given piece of land? ie. Could you have done better?

Bris,

Nope don't have a degree in english.

The routing isn't my issue with the course, other than the 3rd, it is rather some of the "quirky" features it possesses. I am no arhcie buff and I admit to liking courses where the strategy can be understood from the tee. Kooindah requires prior knowledge to aviod hidden hazards and often presents only one way to play which is mainly "don't go there" kinda stuff.

I actually believe that given a large shovel and a pile of spare dirt I could improve the course and reduce some of the quirkiness. Then you may end up with a coure that I like and nobody else does!!

[Fishman Dan]

....and the EPA on your front doorstep ;) :lol:

[Webster]

I actually believe that given a large shovel and a pile of spare dirt I could improve the course and reduce some of the quirkiness.

Whats wrong with quirkiness?

[connico]

Whats wrong with quirkiness?


imagine a woman with three nipples?? thats a quirk, but no all guys like three nipples on a woman?

[miro]

That cracked me up!

[miro]

G69 will run through some of the less appealing bits tomorrow bur for now I have to go home as

MY BACKYARD PUTTING GREEN INSTALATION HAS OFFICIALLY BBEN COMPELTED!!!!!!!!!!!

so I need to go inspect.

Tata

[Fishman Dan]

I take it thats an artificial putting surface?

Again with the environment. You are an ecological nightmare!! :lol:

[3oneday]

MY BACKYARD PUTTING GREEN INSTALATION HAS OFFICIALLY BBEN COMPELTED!!!!!!!!!!!and how exciteded was he :lol:

[Virgal_Tracy]

Miro I read your review and I understand that it is your opinion but after playing at NSW yesterday I can't but think that the 3rd holes are almost identical for each course except for the water.

I stood on the 3rd tee and if it wasn't for the guys I was playing with having played before I would've been hitting don the chute onto the 9th fairway. When you have a chute ahead you don't expect to be hitting over trees to get to the fairway.

NSW has quite a few blind shots but is still easily the best course I have played in my short golfing career.

Maybe G69 can tell us if this was a deliberate copy of the hole at NSW

[miro]

Miro I read your review and I understand that it is your opinion but after playing at NSW yesterday I can't but think that the 3rd holes are almost identical for each course except for the water.

I stood on the 3rd tee and if it wasn't for the guys I was playing with having played before I would've been hitting don the chute onto the 9th fairway. When you have a chute ahead you don't expect to be hitting over trees to get to the fairway.

NSW has quite a few blind shots but is still easily the best course I have played in my short golfing career.

Maybe G69 can tell us if this was a deliberate copy of the hole at NSW

Virge,

I hadn't considered the comparison. Let me ask you a question -did you think the 3rd at NSW was a good hole?

Now let me make a comment. The 3rd at NSW offers the ability to hit everything from a 5 iron to driver depending on how aggresive you wish to be from the tee so at least if offers the player options / choices.

The 3rd at Kooindah really offers no options from the tee other than hit a long iron to the corner and have a long way to the green -there simply is no aggresive/safe or intermediate option.

I for one think the 3rd at NSW is far from the best hole at NSW but it is a long way ahead of the 3rd at Kooindah.

[TS]

The 3rd at Kooindah sounds like the 11th hole at The Coast. 6 iron tee shot and then 180 to 200m 2nd shot to a difficult green.

[miro]

G69

If you are adjacent to the bunker edge you have no shot as there is a tree lightly interferes in your line at the far side of the bunker. So in fact you need to hit your tee shot between 190 and 205 in a perfect world leaving 180or more to the hole.

To suggest that a draw would provide an advantage simply confirms that you need to actually see the hole. Tiger Woods may be able to hit a shot that "draws" through a 25 metre wide gap between trees and a bunker 195 from the tee but for us mere mortals this is less than likely. So assume a bail out right or a fade and wow 230 to the green is not out of the question.

[miro]

G69,

In fact I just looked at the hole description on the Kooindah Waters web site and amusingly it shows the preferred line exactly as I suggested. That was hit it straight at the trees which encroach half way into the fairway and hope it misses them.

[miro]

G69 you need to actually walk the hole before making that call.

[miro]

G69,

One of the best holes on the course - certainly the best short Par 4 (i.e. its the only one from memory). But looks nice and inviting from the tee but miss the fairway and real trouble eventuates which is good for a short hole. Also enjoyed the green and surrounds which as I said is a strength of the course IMO.

I also thought 15 was one of the better 3 shot Par 5's I have played in a while, particularly liked the shot into the green.

[jimandr]

Now that some of the OzGolfers have played the course, and more will do so next week, expect this thread to really come alive.

I went in with a very open mind, expecting to disagree with Miro in the most part. Now, I agree with him mostly.

Firstly, a note on course condition. The fairways, for the most part, were a bit dodgy. It is all couch grass, transplanted from elsewhere. Some of the sods on the back nine hadn't quite taken, so there were some bare sandy patches. I'm no expert on grass selection, but I suspect it will take a lot of maintenance to keep the fairways in good nick.

The greens and green surrounds were very good.

Having re-read Miro's comments, it was interesting to see him saying the course was unfavourable for the long hitter. He hits it 30-50 further than me. I thought the driving challenge was harder for me, as the fairway bunkers seemed designed to catch my drives, but the fairways opened up for those who could carry the bunkers.

We played from the black tees, which were mostly not far from the plates.

Positives: the par 3's are very good. I loved seeing a genuine short (125m) hole with all water carry. This is the hole that was 80m for ladies.

In general the greens and green complexes were good. Possibly too many multiple tiered greens for my liking, but most of the approaches looked interesting from the fairway.

The short par 4 14th, followed by the long par 5 15th were both really good holes.

Negatives: sorry G69, but the third is a shocker, so is the 9th, and so is the 18th.

I hit a dodgy fade/slice drive of no more than 200 up the right hand edge of the 3rd fairway, and went through the fairway into a dead position. You either must hit a big draw, or lay up on a 380m hole. It may not have been possible, but I would've built the tee further to the right into the swamp to straighten the hole.

Nine had a very tight driving area for my distance, but it opened up for those who could carry the bunker. I didn't like this green either, with its severe slope back toward the water. Nothing to stop people chipping or putting off the green and into the water. Unfair IMHO.

And 18..., it is a 400m par 4 with no landing area for the drive. It asks the player to carry 200+, then stop the drive in a 20m space. I'll be very interested in Spiersy's view if he has a blast, cuts the corner and carries the water, then finds his ball in a canal style hazard you can't see from the tee.

Personally, I loved the short par 5 fifth, mainly because I chipped in for eagle. Brad hit a house off this tee. I'm not sure all the home owners will appreciate the closeness of their golf course frontage.

I'm not totally negative of the course, but I'm not positive either. I'd want a discount from the $60 odd green fee to play there again.

Jono took lots of pictures. He will post them somewhere. If not on this thread, then somewhere else.

[kwantfm]

My group at work is having its annual golf day at Kooindah in October... sounds like a controversial decision now!

[amanda]

To add to Jim's comments:

1. The course guide they give you (and even the one on the website) is a shocker - for a course with so many hazards out of eye sight, there needs to be a bit more on distances - e.g. on the 5th there is a small water hazard - but we couldn't calculate how far it was a away to decide whether to go for it or lay up - distances were deceiving. A decent course guide (a la Moonah Links - excellent guide for a rather boring course) would make the playing experience a lot better

2. The debacle with carts was fixed early on - so we got carts with our rain check voucher - they were nice about this.:-D

3. I really like the par 3s - all makeable off the tee for women golfers - even with an iron. The short 80m one I got NTP for the group (I think) with my 9 iron - I loved the feeling of hitting a short iron into a par 3 - real confidence booster! :smt023

4. The course has no members yet - therefore, all golfers are social players. It appeared that most golfers who knew the ettiquette of golf played in the morning - ie tee off before 9am (all of these people we saw walking rather than in carts). We started at 9.30am - almost every group following us was extremely rude. We let 1 group through - they were a 3 and clearly faster. Then we had another group of 3 behind - on one hole they hit balls over our heads! Then no apologies or even recognition they did something dangerous. When I approached them about it, they claimed "we didn't see you" - we were standing on the bloody green! :smt013

These guys eventually asked us to drive through one hole because they "needed to finish golf by 2pm" - they teed off at 10am - I'm not sure who thinks that golf rounds last only 4 hours these days!

After that, there was a couple - he seemed to be an ok player, she looked like a beginner - but dressed very stylishly (in a "matching print top & pants" sort of way). They caught us about 150m out from the green on the last hole. I had a shocker in a bunker, then hit it into a hazard, then another shocker shot. The whole while the woman is shouting "fore" - but not hitting golf balls. The bloke is shouting obscenities & for us to "hurry up" and "get out of the way".

As a result, I walked a lot slower to my ball, Brad drove the cart slower - just to annoy the crap out of them. :smt064

Then the bloke hit over our heads while we were putting on the green. His ball landed in a bunker near Brad - unfortunately it was accidently stepped on and became buried :twisted:

5. Clubhouse food was over-priced ($6.50 for wedges) but drinks were reasonably priced ($2.50 for a schooner of cola)


Overall, I course I would come back to - but maybe once they had members and an official comp - I wouldn't pay a green fee more than $50. If Magenta is as good as they say - why play Kooindah when you can drive another 20 minutes up the road?

[Speirsy11]

Great comments guys..keep them coming. I wan't to hear warts and all..not sugar coated.
A couple of the comments really concern me. about the fairways widening out after the 220-230 landing zones....it really goes against the principles of our designs. Almost every design that comes thru my desk has a fat 40m landing zone for the 180-220m player and then narrows for the bombers.
I'll have to check this out to see what has happened.

Take your time with that one.......Some of us don't mind a wider landing area at 260-280m :-)

[Fishman Dan]

Amanda - your post is disturbing to say the least. Wedges cost WHAT?! :roll:

No seriously.... these people need to be aware of some of the legal issues of hitting up on a group and causing an injury. Sure there is a pace of play concern, so do you wait for them to let them through, or do you explain it to them between holes? This kind of thing scares me on a golf course, especially after the young Lane Cove kiddy was killed recently.

I nearly copped one yesterday, the ball must have missed me passing me at eye-level by about 5-10cm's - no more! This was from another hole and was an accident, so players need to be aware of the dangers.

[amanda]

Fishy - the wedges were pretty tasty - but $6.50 was a little on the steep side!

As for the people hitting up on/over us - we did let one group through when they were clearly quicker (and a group of 3 vs us as a 4), but the next 3 were hackers - clearly very rude about hitting up on us - perhaps if they were a little more friendly, we may have been a bit nicer back.

Though the last couple took the cake - screaming at those in front never helps!

[Ducky]

I honestly hate people like that. They hack the ball 100m with each shot in a quickish manner, and then expect you to let them through when they are being obnoxious.

When we played at Blackheath in a Saturday competition, we had two lost balls within the first three holes. As a result, we lost a bit of ground on the group ahead. Surely enough, after finishing the fourth hole we were confronted by the groups behind us (there were only two).

The first group says "Guys, we don't want to hurry you along, but you're one and a half holes behind the group infront." We explained the situation and they were satisfied with the reply.

Moments later (around 10 seconds), a golfer from the second group approaches us and says "F**king hurry the f**k up! You're one and a half f**king holes behind!" One of the members in our group replies "Excuse me?" This only seems to aggravate the golfer who looks like he is going to a Metallica concert as opposed to playing eighteen holes. "Are you f**king deaf you stupid c**t?"

At this point I wanted to rip into the guy, but not being a member at the club and not wanting to cause more conflicts we continued to go about our business. Of course, two holes later we were waiting for the group infront to tee off.

Whilst waiting on the tee we had the opportunity to watch the golfer who had blown a gasket a few holes earlier. He would walk up to his ball without bothering about alignment or any other fundamentals and hack it 50m, and then repeat the process.

In your situation its hard to know what to do. On one hand you don't want to cause conflict, but on the other hand you don't want any of your group being injured. Fortunately, in our situation the groups were not hitting up on us.

[Matt 3 Jab]

i wouldnt have given him a 4 iron to the throat! i hate people like that, you did the right thing duckamn, but geeez, they all need to learn how to play.

[markTHEblake]

for a course with so many hazards out of eye sight,

G69 - you might need to look into a 2ft high box on some of the ladies tees.


Then the bloke hit over our heads while we were putting on the green. His ball landed in a bunker near Brad - unfortunately it was accidently stepped on and became buried :twisted:

My old man told me that he once had a bloke hit up on him and he just pulled out a 3w and hit it back over their head. Wouldnt advise that these days, too many legal scenarios, however i would never have stood on the guys ball either - instead i would have make sure he wouldnt find it.

I had a case of being deliberately hit up on at my club a while ago (twice), Just missed an elderly lady in my group. Being members the proper way to deal with that is a written complaint and that worked out pretty well, but with social players you do have to take things into your own hands. - responsibly :-)

[Fishman Dan]

Ducky - the right thing to do would have been to call them through while looking for your balls. This not only lets a group through, but gives you another couple of minutes to find it.

[connico]

Ducky - the right thing to do would have been to call them through while looking for your balls. This not only lets a group through, but gives you another couple of minutes to find it.


And you hit up on them eventually! :P

[miro]

I went in with a very open mind, expecting to disagree with Miro in the most part. Now, I agree with him mostly.

Having re-read Miro's comments, it was interesting to see him saying the course was unfavourable for the long hitter. He hits it 30-50 further than me. I thought the driving challenge was harder for me, as the fairway bunkers seemed designed to catch my drives, but the fairways opened up for those who could carry the bunkers.


Jim,

I am not sure whether to feel deeply insulted by the first bit of the quote or vindicated. :)

Re the second part you have noted elsewhere that "miss the fairway and lose a ball" is the rule. Well when you ar hitting driver to fairways you often can't see that are bounded by hazards and no "protective rough" the fairway bunkers start to look quite inviting.

[Fishman Dan]

Miro - surely this is a case of knowing the course and playing it a whole lot wiser the 2nd time around? Obviously course guides are good too, but they can only tell you so much.

It's much the same at places like The Vintage and The Pines at Sanctuary Cove too, often there is no secondary cut other than knee-high grass or rocks and water. Kooindah surely isn't the only course you've played that is configured like this.

I'm trying to stay subjective here, I'll obviously have my own opinions when i play it. Mind you i'll be in a whole different world of hurt - i don't hit the ball as far as either of you, or as straight ;)

[miro]

Dan,

Kooindah should not be used in the same sentence as The Vintage or the Pines. When you play it you will understand what I mean.

The course serves a purpose -selling houses -not bringing golfing enjoyment to the well washed public.

[Fishman Dan]

I was just drawing a comparison Miro. Besides, judging by your comments to date, The Pines and Kooindah would probably be in good company. I don't rate The Pines at all - especially considering the price you have to pay (coupled with the proximity to places like Hope Island).

[Speirsy11]

Well, I'm at the Sydney airport, so this will be short and sweet......I think you guys are crazy. I liked KW, thought it made you think your way around and was a solid challenge. Most of the guys in our group thought the same......To each their own.....I'll give the details when I get home tonight.....

[Speirsy11]

Thank god for that Spiersy. I was beginning to think we get the dozers back and fill the place in.

Ok, here we go......

#1. Decent opening hole. Nothing too difficult, it's pretty much laid out for you. Keep it in play and you'll be fine.....I like the idea of a relatively easy par 5 to start, gives the average player a chance to hit driver, an iron and a wedge right away and get things rolling.

#2. Very good little hole. I hit 9 iron but it could be anything up to a 6 for me, 4 for a shorter hitter depending on wind. The lake frames it nicely and is a good follow up to the easy first......I like that the lake gets longer the farther right you hit it too.

#3. I liked this hole.....Of course, I knew the line having read this thread, but all in all not a bad hole. You can hit driver over the trees on the left and leave wedge in, but the risk is high (not impossibly high though). The smart play off the tee is a 3-4 iron to the corner short of the bunker but this leaves a tough second shot with 3-5 iron. A few guys playing in our event hit driver over the corner and had 8-pw in, but some hit the trees and were in dire straits......All in all a decent hole to me.

#4. Stock standard par 3. I hit 8 iron to a front pin but pushed it into a bunker......nothing special about this hole to me.

#5. Good par 5 running along a trailer park......Tight driving area with bunkers left, but a good drive leaves no more than a 5 iron to a nice tiered green. trouble left of the green, but not too close.......If you hit it in the bunkers off the tee, forced lay up unless you get lucky with the lie (as it should be IMHO)

#6. Nice par 3 again, water left slopes off the back. Again, nothing good or bad about this one.

#7. Boring hole. 3 wood or driver to the corner, 7-pw to the green. Not every hole can be the Road Hole right?

#8. Really a good par 5. Tight driving area, you can either take on the bunkers (get it over them and you have about 180m to the green over water) or stay left and flirt with the trees and water left. A good tee shot with driver is rewarded, and bad one punished. If you choose to lay up, it's no gimmie as the green slopes back towards the water and the bunkers in back are no treat......It's actually better to lay up back a ways to decrease spin, if forced to lay up I'd keep it back to about 125m and hit 9 iron in to keep the spin off it a bit.

#9. Perfect bunkering in the fairway, junk around the green. The bunker is exactly in my 3iron yardage so I eaither lay up with 5 iron and hit 7-8 iron in, or try and hit 3 wood over the bunkers which puts the water into play but allows a flip wedge should I pull it off. I hit 3 iron into the trap took 3 to get out and made 8...Sweet......

#10. Boring par 5, nothing special, just hit it over the bunkers on the right with a draw and hit 3wood-3iron in........Nice 4 Jono.

#11. This is the one hole that I really didn't like. Water hazard should not be hidden behind a moundwith a tree that looks like it's at the edge of the water in plain view. The water actually extends about 10m left of the tree and you cannot see the stakes from the tee. Either lose the tree or get longer stakes. The greenside bunker is alos to big and high for the kind of shots being hit in......A slope off the back of that bunker with crap long is not good design; a player could hit a great 6 iron from the fairway over the edge of the bunker and be punished with it skipping over the back into junk. A shot that good should not be punished, it should be rewarded.

#12. Nice par 3, water left, bunkers right.

#13. nice little driving hole that again gets narrow the longer you hit it. I hit 3 iron off the tee short of the bunkers and was left with 7iron in......If I hit driver I could have SW in but it could be for my third after a drop. nice hole.

#14. I like the idea of one short par 4 with risk/reward in it on each course. This one is good as you are rewarded for getting it close to the green, but laying up is tough. It looked tough to lay up between the bunkers and the water but blasting driver pin high is rewarded with a possible birdie. It also looks a lot tighter off the tee than it really is, which is how holes like this should be.

#15. Very good par 5. Hit it in the fairway or you're dead......unless yo uhit a great driver it's a real 3 shot par 5. The braver you are, the tougher the lay up but the easier the third shot. Nice green complex, with excellent bunkering.

#16. Blah. 3 wood, pw.

#17. Awesome little hole. Like the 2nd, it's only 8-pw over water the whole way to a tiny green. Lots of bail out room left, but a tough second if you do bail as it runs towards the water. A+ as a 17th hole, like playing 17 at TPC Sawgrass.

#18. Great finishing hole, especially into the wind. I hit 3 wood and 5 iron, taking on as much of the water as I thought was prudent with a press on and being $25 down. The landing area looks tight from the tee but really isn't that small with TONS of room right for the "slicer" types. The more you cut off, the easier it becomes to get the second shot to the green. Also a nice little feature is the shape of the fairway that will sling a draw around the water down the fairway. Jono hit a low running draw the took the shape perfectly and got close to 20m roll from it, leading to a birdie on the last.

As for the condition and such, the one real probem I had was with the sand in the bunkers. It was too much like beach sand that had a tendency to clump up and end up caked on the ball even though it wasn't real wet. The fairways aren't settled yet, b thats to be expected with a course this young. The greens ran nice and true with decent speed.......

All in all I thougth this was a good challenge, especially off the tee. The players in our bunch that hti it long all seemed to really relish the fact that it wasn't all drivers or all 2 irons as so many courses are. I hit Driver, 3 wood, 3 iron and 5 iron on par 4's, but driver on all par 5's.........Thats one thing I really like on a course........

So yeah, thats my impression.............Now would I live there? No chance, too many trailer parks..........

[Jono]

#3. I liked this hole.....Of course, I knew the line having read this thread, but all in all not a bad hole. You can hit driver over the trees on the left and leave wedge in, but the risk is high (not impossibly high though). The smart play off the tee is a 3-4 iron to the corner short of the bunker but this leaves a tough second shot with 3-5 iron. A few guys playing in our event hit driver over the corner and had 8-pw in, but some hit the trees and were in dire straits......All in all a decent hole to me.



Having had a second look at the course and seeing how better players would play it, I admit that Kooindah is a better course than I had originally thought. However, I still think 3rd is controversial. To the long hitting, near scratch player, strategy is probably more important than aesthetics, but to us hackers, the hole should look like a hole. Standing on the tee, the view should give you some indication of where to go and how to play the hole.

Here is a picture of the 3rd from the tee.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5153/dsc01415sc2.jpg

It looks like the fairway bunker is on the left side of the fairway. However, this Google Earth view shows otherwise:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/896/3rdmodwq0.jpg

The green rectangle is where the 3rd tee is, and the red circle highlights the group of tall trees about 170 meters from the tee. The course guide says you should aim for a "well struck tee shot preferrably with right to left shape". Try a hard hook. A hook that curves late in its flight, and curves enough to avoid the water harzard past the lone fairway bunker (yellow circle). And the hook has to curve just right to land in a 20 meter wide zone.

If you are going to take the trees on, it is a much better option to go OVER the trees. Now these are pretty tall trees ... my normal drive, at the apex of its flight, would probably go as high as these trees. I tried teeing it up high and putting it forward in my stance, which lead me to block the shot out to the right. Even if I had hit it high and straight, I would probably have hit the trees. So my only real option off the tee is to lay up with a 2 iron short of the fairway bunker. Only the big hitters who can carry about 250 meters should take these trees on, IMO.

Now, having laid up, you are faced with this shot:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4161/dsc01417rz2.jpg


About 180 meter shot with hazard all the way up the right and a bit of bail out area short and left of the green. If you have laid up too much to the right or too far, the trees on the right will come into play and you have to fade it in.

How about this? What if they move the 8th green to the left, and put the 3rd tee where the 8th green is? (I've shown this with blue rectangle in the Google Earth picture) That should give you a glimpse of the green from the tee. You no longer would have to go over the trees ... you can now fashion a gentle draw around them. Or you can lay up. It would just give you a better angle. This would also give you a better view of the hole from the tee.

[Speirsy11]

Wow Jono....forget medicine and go into graphic design........

I see what you're saying about 3, but I just don't see the second shot as that big a problem......The driving area would be greatly improved if you could cut down ONE of the trees on the left...Or grow some more rough on the right to guide theb player to the left more......I don't see anything wrong with having 180m into a par 4 once in a while........It's not like every hole on the course is like that, and it certainly poses a challenge......

[Jono]

Jono

By moving the 8th green to the left you're now all over the 7th tees and 6th green.


I think the 7th tee will be safe but the people on the 6th green would certainly be in danger ... :mrgreen:

I understand that the space is tight ... Perhaps if they can get permission to just cut down ONE of the trees as Speirsy suggested ... 8)

BTW, the index for the hole is 2. Having played the hole twice, I would certainly take a 2 iron next time and lay up ... Off the blacks, anyway.

[Jono]

Now for arguably the best hole on the course ... for me, anyway. 8)

Par 5 15th.
536 meters from the tips.
Index 7.

Here's the Goole Earth view:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2746/overheadmodvf0.jpg

The bunker on the left and the first bunker on the right are about 220 off the tee. It would be a good 260 meter carry to go over the last bunker on the right. So off the tee (blacks), the bunkers would come into play for majority of players. For the average 220 to 240 meter hitter, you have to go between the bunkers, preferably hugging the right side of the fairway. If you go little too far left and are long enough (ie. past the left fairway bunker), you can end up in the water.

Here is the view from the tee (from yellow tee, but you get the idea)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6688/teefy7.jpg

Now, the best thing about this hole is the options you have for the second shot. From the overhead shot, you can see a group of 4 bunkers about 150 meters from the green. These are quite raised and from ground level, you can't see that there is quite a bit of space to the right past these bunkers.

Here's a view of the 2nd shot from a spot just next to the fairway bunkers on the right.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2622/dsc01470zr3.jpg

The ideal second shot should go straight over these bunkers to leave yourself 80 - 100 meters wedge shot for your third. This will give you the best angle for your third. However, not knowing that there is space to the right, we were drawn to the left side ... ey, Jim? :mrgreen:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9091/dsc01471ts0.jpg

The green is fantastic. Right to left sloping, with water to the left. The natural tendency is to aim to the right half on the green on the approach shot. If you miss to the right or go in the greenside bunker, you are left with a scary shot towards the water.

Great par 5 hole. 8)

[miro]

Here's a view of the 2nd shot from a spot just next to the fairway bunkers on the right.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2622/dsc01470zr3.jpg


Great par 5 hole. 8)

This view sums up another of my issues with this course. The bunkers in this photo (in the mid distance no the one up close) are fairway bunkers around 120 from the green. Would it be possible to make the bunkering LESS natural on this hole? Afterall they only seem to protrude from a near flat hole by 10 or 15 feet.

Just stupid -why not just build a toilet block in the middle of the fairway. In many ways they reduce the "risk reward" process because no-one in their right mind would take the risk of playing a shot that went anywhere near them. As subtle as a sledge hammer.

[Jono]

This view sums up another of my issues with this course. The bunkers in this photo (in the mid distance no the one up close) are fairway bunkers around 120 from the green. Would it be possible to make the bunkering LESS natural on this hole? Afterall they only seem to protrude from a near flat hole by 10 or 15 feet.

Just stupid -why not just build a toilet block in the middle of the fairway. In many ways they reduce the "risk reward" process because no-one in their right mind would take the risk of playing a shot that went anywhere near them. As subtle as a sledge hammer.

Miro,

I agree that this course is not the most visually pleasing one. However, consider that it is basically built on a swamp, with no real elevation changes to speak of.

IMO, those bunkers are located just at the right spot. If you hit a poor drive, you are forced to lay up short of these bunkers, leaving you a 150+ meter 3rd shot to a very well protected green. Hit a good drive, and you can go over these bunkers, leaving you a relatively straight forward 80 meter wedge shot in.

The high lip on those bunkers may not be aesthetically pleasing, but it means that if you go in it, you may be forced to just pop it out. A shallow bunker would give you a reasonable chance of getting it on the green.

[jimandr]

Some different views of what makes a course interesting have been made already. I agree with Miro's view of the bunkers being 'unnatural', but I also think KW is the sort of place where you don't really need, or expect, a natural look. After all, in years to come the place will be surrounded by houses on all sides. It will never be a scenic photo opportunity type of place.

The thing I really didn't like was the sightline you got from the tees. Generally, you can't see over the bunkers. It detracts from the enjoyment if you smash the drive and then you're not sure where it has finished (I'm talking through Jono's eyes here. I never hit drives out of sight.)

My great objection to the third is that it isn't fun to play. I don't want to play par 4's as if they were par 5's, and if I have to do so, I'm looking for somewhere else to play. My lateral thinking solution would have been to bring the green FORWARD 50 metres, to make it an almost driveable par 4. Then the risk is worth taking, and the layup off the tee gets a reward, not just another difficult shot.

Apart from that, I agree with most of Spiersy's comments, and particularly the 17th. That is a good hole. I reckon having a very short par 3 near the end of the round is a very good thing.

[miro]

My great objection to the third is that it isn't fun to play. I don't want to play par 4's as if they were par 5's, and if I have to do so, I'm looking for somewhere else to play. My lateral thinking solution would have been to bring the green FORWARD 50 metres, to make it an almost driveable par 4. Then the risk is worth taking, and the layup off the tee gets a reward, not just another difficult shot.

Jim,

I reckon that is a great suggestion on the 3rd. As I noted elsewhere the course only has one short par 4 which I thought was one of the better holes on the course. Having another, the 3rd, I think would be a real positive.

[Jono]

Jim,

I reckon that is a great suggestion on the 3rd. As I noted elsewhere the course only has one short par 4 which I thought was one of the better holes on the course. Having another, the 3rd, I think would be a real positive.

So would you go back there again if they moved the green forward?

As Speirsy mentioned, for the real big hitters, the 3rd isn't a bad hole strategy wise. Perhaps they can move the tee forward so average hacks like us can go over the trees. And save the back tees for big tournaments.

[miro]

No no. Move the tee forwards and try and provide a "hit a draw" and hit the green strategy. Block it or cut it and your in a hazard. Whether the lines are available to do this I can't say but it sounds like a good thought process.

[Jono]

Hang on..I need to get my head sorted here....I thought the initial problem with the 3rd was the trees on the corner on the left that you couldn't or didn't want to take on. Now you want to make a drivable par 4 that would mean hitting it over those trees.

95% of golfers on this forum would not be able to consistently drive over those trees off the back tees unless the hole played downwind.

[miro]

And we are probably on average better golfers than the whole population -which means 99% of all golfers couldn't play over the trees at present.

[Speirsy11]

No no. Move the tee forwards and try and provide a "hit a draw" and hit the green strategy. Block it or cut it and your in a hazard. Whether the lines are available to do this I can't say but it sounds like a good thought process.

Even with the tees moved up you couldn't hit a draw to that green anyway. You'd have to hit a fade over the trees, and with the tee up 50yds you wouldn't have the space to get it up quick enough.........I'm sorry, but I don't understand what is wrong with it being a difficult second shot, considering no other hole on the course has a tough second shot..........

If you hit it left of the bunker, you can go straight at the green, be it from 180m. Go over the trees you have 100m in, but you are facing a 6 if you don't make it. Hit it right and you are forced to hit a fade into the green, way right and it's dead.......Just sounds like a tough hole......

I think one driveable par 4 is enough on an already short course.

[brad]

Just keep it below the leaf line like I do and just let it roll :-D

Although you need to miss the tree trunks....:-|

[AndyP]

Hole 2
149 meters
Par 3
Index 5

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3155/overheadmodef6.jpg



Tee shot:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7761/dsc01410xx4.jpg







This hole looks almost identical to the par 3 on the front nine at Pacific Harbour. At least to me it does.
Water carry all the way, water at the back right of the green, bunker at the back centre and bailout to the left.

[miro]

I would be surpirsed if there weren't at least half a dozen identical par 3's to this around the country. Not particularly inspirational but I enjoyed the hole. We had a front left pin. Imissed the green to the bail out area on the left -simple chip and tap in.

[jimandr]

The thing i enjoyed most about this hole is trying to locate the exact point of entry of Connico's club, as this is the hole where the club went in, and he found he couldn't walk on water when trying to retrieve it.

From a strictly hacker point of view, I think it is actually a bit difficult for a second hole on the course. If it were later in the round, not as many hackers would be playing five or even seven off the tee in their effort to carry the water and shoot at the flag. For the good player, it is a good hole.

[Grunt]

A few questions for Kooindah

Is this place a play once and never go back course?
Should I bother using the raincheck voucher I have?
Is it a course that you could play by yourself?
I have a raincheck Voucher that expires on the 15th of this month and my mate that was going to do the trip up with me busted his wrist on the weekend so I will have to play it alone if I bother at all.

[Jono]

Is this place a play once and never go back course?If it was closer, I'd definitely go back. It's a pretty good course, IMO.

Should I bother using the raincheck voucher I have?Yes, definitely.

Is it a course that you could play by yourself?Well, I think it's interesting enough and challenging enough to keep you amused.

The condition of the fairways wasn't the best when we went back, especially the back nine. Hope it's better now.

[Grunt]

Ok then I will play it on my lonesome either Wednesday or Thursday this week. I will give a C graders view on it as i am back out to 19 now.

[marcel]

.....and my mate that was going to do the trip up with me busted his wrist on the weekend ......

Is it just my imagination that either you, your car, or your mates are at the wrong end of the good luck stick occasionally?

[Grunt]

Finally going to get up there for a hit on Thursday. Going to tee off around 12, main reason for trip up is to play the course and see where to hit and not to hit. Am going to have an enjoyable hit and try and make myself up a course guide.
I am playing in the 2nd round of the Angostura Challenge on the 16th Feb. As I am currently 2nd in the listings I am hoping for a good round in this game.

[Grunt]

Well I finally went and had a full game @ Kooindah Waters this afternoon. Absolutely no one on the course played in just over 2.5 hours. Course is being played in reverse order for the resort construction. Actually cant see why this is so. The 18th is a short par 4 to a temporary green about 70m short of the original green.
On the course I liked the back nine more than the front, those holes looked more thought out that the front nine. Spent alot of time in the bunkers today and found them great.
The 11th hole had fairway damage right in the landing zone off the tee.
14th Hole is a great par 4, I hit 2i off the tee for a simple chip and 2 putt par :)
Had real dramas on the par 3's and failed to hit a green, Liked 2, 12 & 17.
With all the talk in here about 3 I decided to play it as a par 5 and hit a long iron just past the tree, another 8i to the front of the bunker on the right hand side, chip and 2 putts for a 5. I was happy with that.
On the whole I enjoyed the course and am going back in 2 weeks time for the Angostura Challenge 2nd round. I got a good idea of where to go and where not to today. Hopefully it was worth the effort.

[AndyP]

Course is being played in reverse order for the resort construction.
Was it a PITA playing a hole like the 18th, then going back two fairways to play the 17th, and so on?

[Grunt]

Sorry I meant that the nines had been flipped over and you had to play off the 10th tee(back nine)first.

[Grunt]

Am off to Kooindah again this morning for the 2nd Round of the Angostura Challenge. It is a pro am series that has both good prizes for amateurs and pros. Hopefully the recon mission will aid me around the course a little I have more of an idea of what to hit for different holes on the course.

[Fishman Dan]

Time for a review.

I found it a good test, without being too la-di-dah. Obviously I lost a few pills around the course, but that's to be expected on a course like this without really knowing where you're going.

One comment is if you go through the green, you're generally going to wind up in the swamp or on the next tee. Most greens don't have much more than a metre before they drop off, and the grass used won't hold the ball up on the down-slope. Perhaps when it matures further they will let it grow out a little more. Particularly to note is the Par 3 12th where my long iron wound up through the green and had trickled into the water, and the short par 4 14th, where you should be taking no more than a wedge into a very narrow green, with the 15th tee right behind it.

All this debate about the 3rd hole is a bit of a storm in a tea-cup. I didn't show any respect and ended up in the water, while Grunt played a tactically spot-on shot to be at the feet of the big trees. My opinion is while there is no hazard defending the front-edge of the green, you could lay-up off the tee and play a long iron in and allow it to roll up completely unhindered. There should be no problems coming in from 160-190m (or 5i-5w).

The other thing that surprised me a little is the concurrent fairways (10/11, and 5/7), allow you to escape with errant tee shots (although one was a little too errant off 7!). That sort of gave it a suburban feel as opposed to a resort-course feel.

The par 3's were particularly tough, a lot of them 1/2 surrounded by water which encouraged bail-out tee shots. The 2nd was a tough tee shot, but all those missing left found they have to chip on at right-angles to the line of the hole (pin was at the back) and hopefully 2-putt.

I'd happily play there more frequently, and expect to come off with more than the 27 I did last weekend.

[Trung]

96 posts in this thread so far.

30% of them about the Par 4, 3rd hole.

I have played it once and I LIKE IT.. hehe :smt038 :smt023

I hit the ball quite high so taking it over the tree was my first option.

Had an easy PW to do green for a nice Par.. :smt079




ps. Had I read this thread prior to playing at Kooindah, I might have played it a little different :smt108 .

[Fishman Dan]

You counted all the posts that said "3rd hole"?! :shock:

[mikezone13]

You counted all the posts that said "3rd hole"?! :shock:-

[mikezone13]

the 3rd at Kooindah... fun one minute, annoying the next

[Trung]

You counted all the posts that said "3rd hole"?! :shock:

i took the first 2 numbers that came out of my head :razz:

[macjackass]

Am playing there tomorrow, anyone able to give me a heads up as to the condition of the course, please?

[Hooker]

Am playing there tomorrow, anyone able to give me a heads up as to the condition of the course, please?

Played at Wyong a couple of days ago { Kooinda is only about 2 km away and pretty flat same as Wyong} and we are still playing preferred lie through the green as it's still is very boggy on the lower parts of the course. Hope that might help.

[macjackass]

Had a round at kooindah today. For the money I thought it was fantastic. Greens were fantastic and the fairways were excellent (although they looked dry as they're couch). Should have bought a course guide as quite a few of the hazards are not visible. As for the 3rd hole i thought it was not bad. From the middle tees it was easy as it was just a driver over the trees and a gap wedge to the green. For mine it is an easy fix from the back tees, they just have to remove the right tree from the group on the left (if that makes sense). Will be going back again soon.

[BrisVegas]

As for the 3rd hole i thought it was not bad. From the middle tees it was easy as it was just a driver over the trees and a gap wedge to the green. For mine it is an easy fix from the back tees, they just have to remove the right tree from the group on the left (if that makes sense). Will be going back again soon.

We played the back tees on Friday and 2 of us got over the trees with our drives. I had about 130m to the green from where I finished. I don't think you should necessarily have to go over trees to play a hole, but I think in this instance it's a risk-reward option. Taking that line makes it a short iron second shot. If you took the more conservative line off the tee, it's a long iron or fairway wood tee shot, followed by a long iron approach. The green was quite large and receptive to a run-up apprach, so I think a long approach is fair enough.