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amanda
4th August 2004, 08:58 AM
Anyone interested in a game down at Shellharbour on Sat 11th of September?

Tee time would be late morning (after 11am) so that we can get down there ok.

Cheers!

Trung
4th August 2004, 10:11 AM
Pull your legs out boys. :wink:

Remind me of US players that would only play courses in the US. :twisted:

Pickup and drop off available at Sydney Airport. 8)

Jarro
4th August 2004, 01:09 PM
thanks anyway Trung ....

.. but i don't really wanna be in an airplane on September 11 :shock:

Trung
4th August 2004, 01:26 PM
Catch a bus :wink:

Jarro
4th August 2004, 01:34 PM
Catch a bus :wink:

yeah right :roll:

put me down for a raincheck, but i do plan to get down there sometime soon for a hitout with some of you NSW Ozgolfers 8)

Speirsy11
4th August 2004, 01:36 PM
I might be in....how far is it from Sydney? Any other Sydney types going who I could catch a ride with?

Speirsy11

amanda
4th August 2004, 02:06 PM
Hi Spiersy - Shellharbour is about 1 hour from St George/Sutherland area so about 1.5 hours from most places.

I will be organising some driving directions for everyone - right now there are 7 of us going down.

I'll send you a PM

Jarro
4th August 2004, 02:09 PM
Whatever would they do without you Amanda :roll: :lol:

AndyP
5th August 2004, 10:13 AM
Sorry amanda, I think I have done enough travelling for this year.

Trung
5th August 2004, 11:50 AM
I might be in....how far is it from Sydney? Any other Sydney types going who I could catch a ride with?

Speirsy11

If you still stuck for transport closer to the date, send me a PM and I can work something out for you..

Warning, my car is small. :oops:

Jono
5th August 2004, 03:02 PM
Whatever would they do without you Amanda :roll: :lol:

Basically, just sit in front of the computer and dream about getting together for a game. :wink: Once again, Amanda proves that actions speak louder than words. thanks amanda. We (one of the boys) will try to organise the next Sydney day out. Promise. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Jono
5th August 2004, 03:04 PM
I'll be in, if there is a spare spot. I'll be driving down from the north shore area (Frenchs Forest) and my car can fit one other golfer and his clubs. :D

amanda
5th August 2004, 06:18 PM
Thanks Jono - I've put you down - we've got 10 ppl so far (yes - this is also being advertised on the "other site" - but I ran it past the mods and they said it was ok):

1. Amanda
2. Brad (Amanda's hubby)
3. Geoff (zipptopp)
4. Trung
5. Marcel
6. Andrew (fishhead)
7. Vince (Virgal)
8. Speirsy11
9. Jim (Jimandr)
10. Jono
11.
12.

Jono
5th August 2004, 06:34 PM
Come on, guys. Let's try to get at least 12 players. Fishy? This is a great chance to show off you new and improved form. :wink: Pete? Stu? Terence? :?: :!:

AndyP
5th August 2004, 08:23 PM
The "other" site VS OzGolf :-k

Go Ozgolf, you good thing. :smt023 :wink:

goughy
5th August 2004, 08:34 PM
Maybe someone should pm golfgirl about this one?? She hasn't chimed in yet and it is her home course.

3oneday
6th August 2004, 08:31 AM
Sorry, too far for me, or should I say, for my wife :roll: .

Pete

PS, still trying to get you all out to Windsor, maybe next game ??? and I will organise....

but Amanda can do the maps :)

Golfgirl
6th August 2004, 06:10 PM
Maybe someone should pm golfgirl about this one?? She hasn't chimed in yet and it is her home course.

Terribly sorry about the long absence from the site (did you all miss me?), but I have been feeling very lousy - permanent headache and miscellanous other symptoms - finally diagnosed today as high blood pressure, so will possibly get myself back under control and back to chatting with you all soon.

Amanda was kind enough to send my a pm to let me know about this day - I will get Matt to make a booking for us all, and will sort out some babysitting so as to get a day's golf with you all....

As I've probably said before, it is more of a cart course than a walking course - so carts will need to be booked in advance.

Thanks for doing a tremendous job of organising things Amanda, I am much indebted to you.

Cheers all,
Jodie

amanda
6th August 2004, 07:15 PM
Of course we missed you :D Thanks for giving Matt the details. I'm sure no-one will want to walk when we can get carts for members rates :wink:

amanda
9th August 2004, 08:29 AM
Most recent list...

1. Amanda
2. Brad (Amanda's hubby)
3. Geoff (zipptopp)
4. Trung
5. Marcel
6. Andrew (fishhead)
7. Vince (Virgal)
8. Speirsy11
9. Jim (Jimandr)
10. Jono
11.
12.

amanda
12th August 2004, 03:21 PM
1. Amanda
2. Brad (Amanda's hubby)
3. Geoff (zipptopp)
4. Trung
5. Marcel
6. Andrew (fishhead)
7. Vince (Virgal)
8. Speirsy11
9. Jim (Jimandr)
10. Jono
11. Jodie (golfgirl)
12.

amanda
26th August 2004, 08:18 AM
Hi everyone,

We were heading down to Shellharbour to meet Jodie for a game, however, her hubby has been made redundant - do we still want to head south?

The alternative is we try and get a game somewhere in Sydney for that Sunday. Unfortunately New Brighton is closed for Holden Scramble (members only).

Pete - what about Windsor?

3oneday
26th August 2004, 08:38 AM
Ringing them now.....

3oneday
26th August 2004, 08:42 AM
Ok, spots available are 6.54, 7.00, 7.06, 7.12, 7.18, ie no one is booked in yet at those times. Would probably need to know by Saturday so I can still get them.

Will check back in here later.

Pete

PS, ice won't be around in a couple of weeks.

AndyP
26th August 2004, 09:44 AM
We were heading down to Shellharbour to meet Jodie for a game, however, her hubby has been made redundant
WHAT??? :shock: :shock: What pricks. :smt013 :smt062
I wouldn't give the bastards any of your money. :evil:

Trung
26th August 2004, 10:43 AM
amanda_wong, I'm delaying a trip overseas by one week for Shell Harbour. I confirmed my tickets last night. :(

Having never been to Shell Harbour, I'm very keen on playing there. How about Newcastle? :wink:

Jarro
26th August 2004, 11:02 AM
GG .... good to hear from you again, i wondered where you got to :?

sorry to hear about your health issues ... get better soon and look after yourself OK 8)

amanda
26th August 2004, 12:49 PM
Hmmm - I'm happy to play both days if you still want to play Shellharbour on the Saturday Trung. I'm still waiting to hear from everyone.

Trung
26th August 2004, 02:56 PM
Amanda, Shell Harbour is cool.. If thats ok with everyone else.

amanda
26th August 2004, 03:02 PM
OK - who still doesn't mind the drive to head down to Shellharbour - since we are all organised - it might be our only chance!

1. Amanda
2. Brad
3. Trung
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

AndyP
26th August 2004, 03:20 PM
These NSW OzGolf Days just never run smoothly, do they? ](*,)

amanda
28th August 2004, 09:17 AM
Booking has been made. First group tees of at 11.10am. Cost is $40pp for cart + comp. Just the comp (if you're a walker) is $30. This has gone up from the $25 it was previously.

Can people please PM me regarding whether they would like to be in a cart or not. I know most of us are walkers but apparently the course has long stretches between green and tee and it's quite hilly. I'll put the groups together based on this.

Cheers,
Amanda

Jarro
28th August 2004, 10:35 AM
Have a great day guys :)

.. and don't forget the Digi camera :wink:

Golfgirl
28th August 2004, 11:02 AM
We were heading down to Shellharbour to meet Jodie for a game, however, her hubby has been made redundant
WHAT??? :shock: :shock: What pricks. :smt013 :smt062
I wouldn't give the bastards any of your money. :evil:

Yeah - it gets worse - we are now in a pay dispute with them, and because they would never commit anything to paper, we only had verbal agreements in place and now we will be walking away with nothing - no redundancy payout or annual leave payout or nothing. Pricks is not quite the word I have in mind..... the word I have in mind is one that I wouldn't normally dream of using in a thousand years.... :evil:

I don't think that Matt and I have ever been so devastated.

Jarro
28th August 2004, 11:08 AM
We were heading down to Shellharbour to meet Jodie for a game, however, her hubby has been made redundant
WHAT??? :shock: :shock: What pricks. :smt013 :smt062
I wouldn't give the bastards any of your money. :evil:

Yeah - it gets worse - we are now in a pay dispute with them, and because they would never commit anything to paper, we only had verbal agreements in place and now we will be walking away with nothing - no redundancy payout or annual leave payout or nothing. Pricks is not quite the word I have in mind..... the word I have in mind is one that I wouldn't normally dream of using in a thousand years.... :evil:

I don't think that Matt and I have ever been so devastated.

really sorry to hear about your troubles Jodie .... that sux :evil:

..surely there must be some sort of legal action you could take, or is that something you've already thought about.

Where are you guys heading to now :?: back to QLD :?:

Good luck with everything.

Golfgirl
28th August 2004, 11:24 AM
Thanks Mate!

I'll be nearly back in Qld very soon :D - we are moving to Tweed Heads in the short term to stay with family while we work out what we're doing.

Now that I'm over the shock of it all, I can't wait to get the hell out of here - I would pack up and leave tomorrow if I could. :wink:

Jodie

(Hope that Amanda and gang still have a good time playing Shellharbour - wish I could join them)

Jarro
28th August 2004, 11:29 AM
Now that I'm over the shock of it all, I can't wait to get the hell out of here - I would pack up and leave tomorrow if I could. :wink:



:smt023

Jono
28th August 2004, 02:52 PM
I'm still in for Shellharbour too. Compared to the driving I did in Lismore/Brisbane, Sydney to Shellharbour is nothing ... :lol:

I prefer to walk, but don't mind going on a cart if that's what everyone else is doing.

AndyP
28th August 2004, 05:57 PM
the word I have in mind is one that I wouldn't normally dream of using in a thousand years.... :evil:

Hmmmmm, does it start with c and end in ts? :wink:
GG, I really hope this is some sort of blessing in disguise.
e="jarro"]..surely there must be some sort of legal action you could take, or is that something you've already thought about.
If it's not on paper...... :smt102

Speirsy11
29th August 2004, 07:13 PM
Is everyone else riding? If so, I'll ride too, but I prefer to walk......

But hey, I'm easy, so whatever is good by me.....I'll just be happy to play for the first time in about 6 weeks......Hope I can break 80

Speirsy11

markTHEblake
29th August 2004, 07:32 PM
Yeah - it gets worse - we are now in a pay dispute with them, and because they would never commit anything to paper, .

The PGA should be able to help out quite a bit - have you contacted them?. They are quite protective of their members and can apply a little bit of leverage to the club, perhaps not a lot legally though. In the least the PGA would make sure that club never hires a pro again.

goughy
29th August 2004, 07:57 PM
Yeah - it gets worse - we are now in a pay dispute with them, and because they would never commit anything to paper, .

The PGA should be able to help out quite a bit - have you contacted them?. They are quite protective of their members and can apply a little bit of leverage to the club, perhaps not a lot legally though. In the least the PGA would make sure that club never hires a pro again.

Good angle mtb. You're always thinking.

I spose the other question is was he employed as a contractor, or as a staff member. If so, then he'd have to have signed a tax file number declaration and that means he is on the books. He should then be able to file a complaint with industrial relations who should look after him.

But I'd guess that you've checked or are proceeding with all angles.

markTHEblake
29th August 2004, 09:36 PM
If so, then he'd have to have signed a tax file number declaration and that means he is on the books.

with that angle it wouldnt matter if he was a contractor as well, as they would have to be paying GST as well. Then again we are both assuming he has been paid something.

amanda
30th August 2004, 10:12 AM
OK - I've tried to organise the groups based on walking/cart preferences:

Group 1 - walking:
Jono
Trung
amanda_wong

Group 2 - walking:
Rob Speirs (speirsy11)
jimandr
Grunt

Group 3 - carts:
zipptopp
Fishhead
Marcel
Brad (amanda's hubby)

I haven't heard from Andrew (FishHead) about whether he's after a cart - but he mentioned in his review of the course that he would suggest playing with one.

the pro shop said that we can organise your club & handicap details when we get down there. I might fax them a list (I have most peoples details from the Liverpool day) a couple of days before to make things easier on the day.

First tee time is 11.10am. I will organise & email a map to everyone. Rob Speirs needs a lift from the Epping area - anyone around that way?

Jarro
30th August 2004, 10:36 AM
nice work Amanda 8)

.. what would these jokers do without you there to put it all together :lol:

amanda
30th August 2004, 10:49 AM
OK - I've put together a map with general directions on how to head south from Epping, North Sydney and Western Sydney (if you can get to the M5). There are also more specific directions to get to Shellharbour Links.

It should take you 1 hr 15 minutes to get to Shellharbour once you hit the Princes Highway at Engadine (according to the whereis website). So probably 2 hours is a safe bet from most places. Drop me an email at work (amanda.wong-1@uts.edu.au) and I'll send through the maps.

Trung
30th August 2004, 11:19 AM
nice work Amanda 8)

.. what would these jokers do without you there to put it all together :lol:

Easy there fella.. :wink:

AndyP
30th August 2004, 11:33 AM
It should take you 1 hr 15 minutes to get to Shellharbour once you hit the Princes Highway at Engadine (according to the whereis website).
I wouldn't put to much faith in the times that whereis provides. It tells me that it takes 1hr50min from Redcliffe to Nambour, it can be done in about 45 minutes.

Jono
30th August 2004, 06:19 PM
Rob Speirs needs a lift from the Epping area - anyone around that way?

I am coming from Frenchs Forest area so I'm probably the closest. I am happy to give Rob a lift. Send me a PM Rob, and we'll organise when and where to meet.

Jono
30th August 2004, 06:21 PM
I wouldn't put to much faith in the times that whereis provides. It tells me that it takes 1hr50min from Redcliffe to Nambour, it can be done in about 45 minutes.

Onewood and I nearly missed the turnoff to get to Woodforde following the Whereis directions. they don't seem to take very accurate measurements ... :?

Onewood
30th August 2004, 06:26 PM
I wouldn't put to much faith in the times that whereis provides. It tells me that it takes 1hr50min from Redcliffe to Nambour, it can be done in about 45 minutes.

Onewood and I nearly missed the turnoff to get to Woodforde following the Whereis directions. they don't seem to take very accurate measurements ... :?

Jono, nearly got me lost :D he was navigator :wink: :D

Trung
30th August 2004, 08:20 PM
Onewood and I nearly missed the turnoff to get to Woodforde following the Whereis directions. they don't seem to take very accurate measurements ... :?

Jono, nearly got me lost :D he was navigator :wink: :D

This is classic, just like when the QLD boys took me to some unknown hole at a local Brisbane golf course that I can't recall the name of. :lol:

We were headed to the OOB or shall I call it GUR part of the course. We needed the "trungie GPS system" to take us back to the correct direction :wink:

Was quick to point the fingers at me also :wink:

Golfgirl
30th August 2004, 09:53 PM
Yeah - it gets worse - we are now in a pay dispute with them, and because they would never commit anything to paper, .

The PGA should be able to help out quite a bit - have you contacted them?. They are quite protective of their members and can apply a little bit of leverage to the club, perhaps not a lot legally though. In the least the PGA would make sure that club never hires a pro again.

No = the PGA can't do much for us, because the person/s who have screwed us over are PGA pro's themselves... and we have since found out - ones with not very nice reputations. We feel a little bit better knowing that we are not the only suckers to have been burned by them.... :oops:

Better stop threadjacking Amanda's thread - sorry Amanda!!! :oops:

markTHEblake
31st August 2004, 01:07 AM
No = the PGA can't do much for us, because the person/s who have screwed us over are PGA pro's themselves... and we have since found out - ones with not very nice reputations.

Freind of mine just experienced exactly the same thing here. However the PGA has been helpfull, not that they are taking action, but they want to be informed. if its bad enough they can alert others i suppose. I am surprised they havent been helpfull to you becuase they should be protecting the integrity of their organisation.

Jono
1st September 2004, 05:53 PM
This is an interesting site:

http://www.shellharbour.nsw.gov.au/index.pl?page=1380

I couldn't find any official site for the course, however.

Speirsy11
3rd September 2004, 08:17 AM
This is an interesting site:

http://www.shellharbour.nsw.gov.au/index.pl?page=1380

I couldn't find any official site for the course, however.

Is Shellharbour on a mountain that I don't know about? That little vid makes it look like Whistling Straights......Nice spot for my first round in a month and a half....I might not break 100...... :cry:

Can't wait.....

Speirsy11

amanda
3rd September 2004, 08:56 AM
Speirsy11 - did you manage to get a lift sorted out?

Speirsy11
3rd September 2004, 01:39 PM
Speirsy11 - did you manage to get a lift sorted out?

Yep. Jono is picking me up in his private Helicopter and we are flying down first thing Sat morning.......We'll be there with pleanty of time to get our putting strokes in order so we don;t miss a bunch of 6 footers for bogey......

Speirsy11

amanda
7th September 2004, 10:23 AM
Everything is booked and confirmed. Brad & I should be there about 10.45am (probably a little earlier). Please PM me with your email address if you need driving directions.

Also - I will bring a digicam - but could 1 person in each group bring one? We usually take group pictures & tee shots, but it would be good to try and get some action shots while we are out there.

Trung
7th September 2004, 11:06 AM
Hi Amanda,

Good to see you practicing last Saturday. :wink:

Is there a driving range at Shell Harbour Links? What is the comp game for Saturday?

amanda
7th September 2004, 12:22 PM
Whoops - I forgot to ask those questions - I will try and find time to call them tomorrow.

(Edited 12.34pm)
Actually - I am way to stressed out at the moment - the phone number of the pro shop is 02 4237 8022

Trung
7th September 2004, 01:53 PM
Amanda, coffee is on the way.... :D

I will give them a buzz and post it back here for you...

Trung
7th September 2004, 02:41 PM
Comp is "Single Stableford"

No driving range. Due to open around October

Only putting and chipping greens available. :D

amanda
8th September 2004, 04:45 PM
Golfgirl has been nice enough to offer some vouchers for free green fees - we can only have 1 per group - so I'm sure we can figure out some way to share this between each of the groups.

Trung
8th September 2004, 05:00 PM
Golfgirl has been nice enough to offer some vouchers for free green fees - we can only have 1 per group - so I'm sure we can figure out some way to share this between each of the groups.

I have one voucher also..

Free game for 2 players and cart.. Just not sure if it can be used for competition round tho... :?

amanda
8th September 2004, 05:05 PM
We can give it a try! If it doesn't specifically say "no comp use" we should be allowed to use it - but be required to pay the comp fee separately.

Trung
11th September 2004, 10:08 PM
Thank you Amanda for organising the ShellHarbour game. :smt038

Geezzz, how do I start.. It was WINDY with a capital "W", just check out the picture of Amanda hiding behind my bag on the last tee. :lol:
Played with Jono and Amanda. We had a ball, looking forward to the next game. :wink:

For our group. Jono 27, Amanda 17, myself 20 :smt017
We had 10 starters, best score was 28 points. :smt098

Jono
11th September 2004, 10:57 PM
Whew ... what a long day. Met up with Rob at the Macquarie Uni driving range at 8am. He was already there, hitting a few balls. I just watched him hit a few 300 meter drives, down the middle with a hint of a draw. Thought perhaps some of that might rub off on me ... yeah, right! :lol:

Set off around 8:30 and arrived at the Shellharbour course around 10. Rob told me some great stories about Moe Norman (who recently passed away). Hit some putts and had a quick bite to eat waiting for others to arrive. Hit off around 11am and by this time, the wind was beginning to blow.

I played with Trung and Amanda and I think between the three of us, we lost around 10 balls ... :shock: The rough was thicker than British Open courses (well, it seemed like it ... ) and the wind must have hit 40+ knots. On one par 3, 205 meters, right to left wind and helping, I hit a solid 3 iron hybrid. It started right side of the green, curved left, flew over the left side bunker and the green, bounced on a cart path and went into the thick rough 15 meters behind the green. Lost ball and wipe the hole. :evil: On the 7th (par 3), left to right wind and hurting, Trung hit a beautiful shot that started at the left half of the green and just stayed there. He hit it too well and the wind didn't affect it at all. Sailed over the green and a wipe for him. I tried to punch a few shots in low but all I succeeded in doing was hit near shanks off to the right ... made a mental note at this stage to practice the low shot. Amanda hit some nice shots into the greens on par 3's, only to see them bounce off the back.

To cut the long story short, it was that kind of a day. None of us played that badly, but we were all heavily penalised. The hardest thing I found was setting up to the ball, especially for putting. The wind was so strong, I couldn't keep the putter head steady behind the ball. The ball itself was bobbing side to side as well.

Anyway, I had a great time. There is some talk of taking the next game to the Vintage golf course at the Hunter Valley. If the wind picks up there, we can expect to see some REALLY tough conditions (as if today wasn't tough enough). :wink:

McMw
12th September 2004, 12:10 AM
would probably suggest a nice parkland course for the next outing...just a thought!!! :wink:

Speirsy11
12th September 2004, 03:32 PM
Amanda

Thanks for getting this day set up, really appreciate it and had a great time......BUT, next time, can you choose a day without wind? Thanks......

Jono, thanks for the lift.......Had a great time on the drive down and back......See you at the range next Sunday......

Jim and Grant, my playing partners.....thanks for helping me to a solid 11 points on the front..... :P Solid play all around right? Wow........Guess 28 points will help get that Hcp up though......

See everyone at the next Ozgolf outing....can;t wait......

Speirsy11

markTHEblake
12th September 2004, 04:43 PM
Love the pics, but I didnt realise Michelle Wie was playing?

amanda
13th September 2004, 09:26 AM
Love the pics, but I didnt realise Michelle Wie was playing?
I'll take that as a compliment blakey :wink:

I think Jono was being conservative - I lost at least 6 golf balls, so if the guys lost 4 between them - they did well!

Mau - right idea - somewhere in a secluded valley would be nice for our next outing!

Thanks everyone for driving such a long way for a fun day. It was great to meet Jodie, Matt and Mitchell (he is very smart for a 2.5 year old).

I'm yet to check out the picture thread - but I hope Trung included the one where he was holding up the grass in the rough. I've also sent him some pictures of a cart almost getting wet.

burger
13th September 2004, 10:21 AM
Great Photos Trung ! :smt023
Pete D & I were saying that Amanda might have had trouble standing up!
It a nice looking course . . . sorry to have missed out.
Given the wind, not surprised to see Geoff without the customary widebrim hat!

How much windier was it than the end of Camden Lakeside?

stu

amanda
13th September 2004, 10:33 AM
How much windier was it than the end of Camden Lakeside?
I'd say it was at least 50% more windy that at Camden Lakeside - and it was constantly windy all day - I don't think there were any holes that were protected.

burger
13th September 2004, 10:43 AM
:shock: :shock: :shock:

I particularly remember the back 9 being windy at CL and coming down 18 hitting 9 iron from 160m (normally hit about 110m) so if it was 50 % windier again than that OMG !

stu

:shock: :shock: :shock: .

amanda
13th September 2004, 10:48 AM
Stu - you could stand on the tee - open your arms and be blown off the hill.

burger
13th September 2004, 11:28 AM
YIKES !! um yep that windy . . .

Speirsy11
13th September 2004, 03:00 PM
Ah yes, the wind........It was as windy as I've ever seen on a golf course......especially on the front (our back) nine......Here are a few examples......

Hole #1 is 377m long....with the wind, I drove it pin high....I'm long, but not that long.....

Hole #6 is a 155m par 3.....I hit a solid 3iron to the middle of the green, instead of the 8 iron I would normally hit.

Hole #7 is maybe 140m down hill, WAY downhill.....I hit 6 iron instead of wedge

Hole #8 is 400m par 4.....I hit driver 3 iron to 5m short of the green.....and I killed them both

Hole #14 is a 488m par 5.....Driver, 9iron over the back......

Hole #17 is 500m par 5....Driver, 3 wood, PW.......

It sure was fun playing in those conditions, but more then once might drive you crazy..........

Speirsy11

Golfgirl
13th September 2004, 09:35 PM
It sure was fun playing in those conditions, but more then once might drive you crazy..........

Aaaahhhh!!! So that is what has happened to me.... :smt119 ](*,)

Jarro
14th September 2004, 07:35 AM
looks a very links-ish style course.

not what i had imagined at all :?

Trung
14th September 2004, 07:47 AM
looks a very links-ish style course.

not what i had imagined at all :?

full name is ShellHarbour Links :D

Jono
14th September 2004, 07:58 AM
Jono, thanks for the lift.......Had a great time on the drive down and back......See you at the range next Sunday......
Speirsy11

No probs. Your stories of Moe were pure gold. I'm definitely going to get his book "Feeling of Greatness".

Looking forward to the range session on Sunday. If anybody else wants to come along, please feel free. Actually, I might start another thread for this.