Formula 1 2016

[wazamac]

Another year of Formula 1 has begun.
Good race in Melbourne this year with an array of tyre choices bringing in some excitement.
What a a load of crap the new qualifying system seems to be. Don't think that will last long before going back to the old way.
Red Bull seem to be a little quicker but still not up to Mercedes or Ferrari.

[Hatchman]

That crash was wow.

[wazamac]

Reports of Alonso being out for this weekends race

[Hatchman]

Not surprised, it was a big one.

[WBennett]

Needed a new chassis and engine. A very expensive crash in all ways.

[Hamo84]

last nights race very interesting, Hamilton unlucky after being taken out on the first corner by the Williams.

Is it me, or do the cars still sound crap

[Ron Burgundy]

They do still sound crap. I was in Melbourne for the opener and in low speed corners they sound like a lawnmower.

[Jazz18]

I believe the new regs coming in 2017 will address the sound of the cars. Since they went away from the V8's, they do sound like crap and the FIA have copped a lot of flack from the fans about it. I've got an old lap of Jenson Button in a McLaren when he grabbed pole in Spa from 2014 I think it was, on my DVD recorder. It is such an awesome lap and it's the last year they had the V8's in the cars. It is amazing hearing that V8 rev it's nuts off, bouncing off the rev limiter!

[Hatchman]

Hamilton 5 or is it 6 grid spots penalty at next race for changing a gear box.

Question for those that follow it more closely.
Can you totally rebuild some thing in the car and avoid a penalty rather than swapping it out?


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[BenM]

No. Engines and gearboxes are sealed units - it's supposed to stop people tampering with the internals against the rules. You used to be able to change gear ratios but I'm not sure they even allow that any more.

[virge666]

Hamilton is a tool.

Just cant like anything about the guy.

Hope his car explodes and he has to take 7 races off.

:)

[wazamac]

I think gear ratios are a thing of the past if they are only allowed about 7 a year. Trying to bring the cost down for the smaller teams.

[rubin]

Hamilton 5 or is it 6 grid spots penalty at next race for changing a gear box.

Question for those that follow it more closely.
Can you totally rebuild some thing in the car and avoid a penalty rather than swapping it out?


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No. Engines and gearboxes are sealed units - it's supposed to stop people tampering with the internals against the rules. You used to be able to change gear ratios but I'm not sure they even allow that any more.

If it forms part of the power unit (Internal Combustion Engine, Turbo, Compressor, or either MGU unit) it can' be repaired or replaced without penalty.

Having said that, they can still strip, clean and assemble the units under FIA supervision. The units themselves can be used whenever they like, but with no more than 5 per year without penalty.

The gearbox is set for the year - no changes to ratios or anything, and one must last 6 consecutive races.

[virge666]

I find it interesting that they can spend a limited amount on most parts but can spend BILLIONS on Aero, the bit that makes it impossible to pass.

Tis a weird situation...

[rubin]

I find it interesting that they can spend a limited amount on most parts but can spend BILLIONS on Aero, the bit that makes it impossible to pass.

Tis a weird situation...

They can spend as much as they like, but can only test them so much.

There is limited CFD (computational fluid dynamics) simulation running, and even less aero/wind tunnel work allowed which act as a cost saving measure.

So in short, they won't make something unless the CFD computer says it's gonna work, and they won't run it through the CFD computer unless the research says it will work.

[wazamac]

Kyvat demoted. Marko Unhappy. Booom.

[BenM]

Pretty harsh, he didn't do anything wrong in China for mine. Sochi was a big balls up but aside from that the only thing he's really done wrong this season is be out driven by Dan.

Plus Verstappen carries on like a spoiled brat. I hope Ricciardo spanks him like a red headed stepchild.

[wazamac]

Yes, not a big fan of Verstappen. He is a very aggressive driver, not that it is completely bad but I think he needs a bit of sense and awareness to go with the aggression.
I reckon Dan will still be better as he is so good at conserving tyre life.

[G.K]

There's obviously more at play than what's happened at the last two races. All four RB/TR drivers are on longer term contracts and no doubt there is performance clauses in them that work both ways. I've read somewhere (don't know it to be gospel but a fair possibility) that Verstappen has a clause that he can walk if he hadn't been promoted to the top team by the end of 2016. Obviously RB/TR want to keep him long term so by giving him a RB drive now it fulfils this part of the contract and also gives Kvyat a bit of a wake up call at the same time.

I also hope Dan spanks him but won't be surprised they are fairly close in times, assuming there isn't a massive difference in the driveability between the RB and the TR.

[wazamac]

Sounds like it could be a fair point.

[KristianJ]

I also hope Dan spanks him but won't be surprised they are fairly close in times, assuming there isn't a massive difference in the driveability between the RB and the TR. As the season goes on, TR and their year old Ferrari engine may drop off a bit, especially if the upgrades that the Renault/Tag is supposed to have by Canada are significant.

[KristianJ]

I knew I should have put a sneaky few on a podium finish for Max...

[virge666]

They should do this every race !

[KristianJ]

I knew I should have put a sneaky few on a podium finish for Max... Or a win. This is astonishing...

[TourFit]

A great race without the Mercs in it. Loved the way Lewis had the hands over his eyes as he slid through the gravel :D

A great effort by Max...1) considering all the adjustments he had to make in a week, 2) making those tyres last 32 laps and still maintaining those lap times and 3) how cool he was under pressure by a very experienced racer. Max was 3 when Kimi started his first F1 race !!!

Lucky that Dan's bad luck didn't cost him anything in the end. But surely he'd be asking why he wasn't put on a 2 stopper?

[BenM]

Didn't cost him anything. Except a race win.

RBR screwed up the strategy and so did Ferrari (for Vettel). But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Max drove a solid race without making mistakes which for an 18 year old is impressive. But it doesn't make him the next Senna and the hype is really over the top.

[TourFit]

Didn't cost him anything. Except a race win.

I meant the bad luck of the puncture at the end...that didn't cost him. He was never going to win that race as long as Verstappen & Raikkonen stayed out on their tyres. Had they had to come in again for softs at the end, then maybe he may have won.


RBR screwed up the strategy and so did Ferrari (for Vettel). But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Not sure they did...they were covering each other so closely, knowing that the undercut works well and that it's so hard to pass. Vettel was just marking Dan, and then the other two mirrored each other too. All the data shows that 3 stopping is the fastest way around, but obviously the higher risk strategy (of making the Med tyre go for 32 laps and still be fast enough) paid off this time. Plenty of times when it doesn't. Those tyres could've easily gone off at any time on Max & Kimmi's cars...then they would've been back to 3rd and 4th.


Max drove a solid race without making mistakes which for an 18 year old is impressive. But it doesn't make him the next Senna and the hype is really over the top.

Agreed. 100%.

(But it sure is a convincing start for a new team...and kind of justifies the switch). It is a scary prospect that he could stay in the paddock until he's Raikkonen's age and would be nearing 400 Grands Prix :shock:

[BenM]

I meant the bad luck of the puncture at the end...that didn't cost him. He was never going to win that race as long as Verstappen & Raikkonen stayed out on their tyres. Had they had to come in again for softs at the end, then maybe he may have won.



Not sure they did...they were covering each other so closely, knowing that the undercut works well and that it's so hard to pass. Vettel was just marking Dan, and then the other two mirrored each other too. All the data shows that 3 stopping is the fastest way around, but obviously the higher risk strategy (of making the Med tyre go for 32 laps and still be fast enough) paid off this time. Plenty of times when it doesn't. Those tyres could've easily gone off at any time on Max & Kimmi's cars...then they would've been back to 3rd and 4th.



Agreed. 100%.

(But it sure is a convincing start for a new team...and kind of justifies the switch). It is a scary prospect that he could stay in the paddock until he's Raikkonen's age and would be nearing 400 Grands Prix :shock:

So many quotes....

Yeah Vettel/DRic mirrored each other to try and cover each other off - but in hindsight it was a mistake, and it probably should have been obvious in the cold light of day that on a track where it's very difficult to pass, track position is king! So I realise you meant bad luck about the puncture, I think it's bad luck that RBR blinked when Vettel went for the undercut because if they'd stuck to a 2 stop he might have been the one with the W. It didn't help that his middle stint on the softs was horribly slow either.

[TourFit]

Yeah...In the 1.30's on softs? WTF???

[BenM]

I don't think they were new softs but they were either a dud set or something else was up. Don't think there was any traffic in his way for most of it. I remember a Renault holding him up but I think that was after his next stop when he went back into mediums.

[rubin]

I don't think they were new softs but they were either a dud set or something else was up. Don't think there was any traffic in his way for most of it. I remember a Renault holding him up but I think that was after his next stop when he went back into mediums.

There was massive traffic. Correct though, not new softs.

What also killed it was after he put the mediums on the second time, and got held up by the manor for basically two laps (dirty air) couldn't get close until last corner and the yellow flags in the first sector meant he couldn't pass. Then haryanto stuffed him around for another lap meaning he dropped over a second further to Vettel.

The switch to the three stop killed his race though - Horner admitted as much on sky f1 after the race, but gave no reason for it.

Both Vettel and Riccardo would be asking big questions of their teams.....

[Hatchman]

Red Bull pit stuff up robs Riccardo again.

[mrbluu]

Yep

[Grunt]

Red Bull pit stuff up robs Riccardo again. It seems Red Bull to be getting almost Webber like pitlane stuff ups.

[Hatchman]

It seems Red Bull to be getting almost Webber like pitlane stuff ups.

Only for the Aussie drive thou [emoji849]


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[dee cee]

Was soooo disappointing to watch... Bad bad bad

[G.K]

I was more disappointed to see Justin Bieber waiting for Lewis at the end of the race.

Did LOL at Biebers question/comment to Lewis. "How do you go around those corners so fast dog?" Then says while pointing to the sky, "That's god man"

With stuff like this being broadcast, it makes me less and less concerned about missing most of the races due to not having Foxtel.

But I do feel for Ricciardo. That would be the most pissed off I have ever seen him. Reminded me of this....

https://i.imgur.com/rih3z1l.gif

[Jazz18]

I was so pissed off. I don't think Red Bull are doing it on purpose but it's definitely an Aussie curse with those fella's. Felt so sorry for Danny Ric. Love how he said he had been screwed the last 2 races and it sucked, on the podium, in front of the Royals! Go Dan! The worst part of that race. The prick that won the race celebrated like he'd won the most unbelievable battle and came out on top instead of having the race handed to him. Lewis Hamilton is the most classless, spoiled brat (amongst a paddock of them in F1) and needs to grow up. He is a sook of epic proportions and I hope he doesn't win another world championship so I can see him have a cry about how many engines he had to use.

[BenM]

Jazz has said most of what I think. I almost woke the sleeping child with my yelling at the TV when that pit stop happened....

The only consolation is, Ricciardo is continually performing well on the track and his luck will turn eventually, it has to. And he's a faster and better driver than Webber ever was IMO. In fact he's better than most out there with the exception of maybe Hamilton and Alonso.

[Jazz18]

Jazz has said most of what I think. I almost woke the sleeping child with my yelling at the TV when that pit stop happened....

The only consolation is, Ricciardo is continually performing well on the track and his luck will turn eventually, it has to. And he's a faster and better driver than Webber ever was IMO. In fact he's better than most out there with the exception of maybe Hamilton and Alonso.

I did exactly the same thing! I screamed at the TV (thought I'd woken my daughter too!) and just turned it off I was so disgusted. I watched the rest of the race today when I'd cooled down a bit.

[Jazz18]

Just watched the rest of the wrap up show from after the GP. Daniel Ric is an absolute champion. You could tell he was absolutely gutted and yet he said that he hates being miserable and that he should be happy and grateful that he was on the podium at Monaco and that he is grateful that he gets to do this for a living. What a champion. On the other hand, little dickhead in his purple hat said he felt that he used all his abilities and thought and whatever else to get this victory and that no one gave it to him and he 100% earned it! WTF! He is on crack! Seriously, Lewis Hamilton is f&%kin deluded. People like that make me really angry. What a waste of oxygen.

[coalesce]

I get where you are all coming from with Hamilton as he is a bit of a flog, but it's races with conditions like that which show why he is one of the best drivers out there. The difference between his performance and Rosberg was chalk and cheese. Without drivers like him the show would be even duller than it sometimes is anyway

Yes Ric would have won if the pit stop had gone smoothly, but equally both drives were quality. I can understand why Hamilton would think that was a great drive and be rightly pleased about it

On the subject of Ric, I'm fed up with the media here saying he's crap because he doesn't win. That kind of comment makes it clear they haven't done any kind of research whatsoever. "Qualifies well but always finishes 4th" is a direct quote from the radio last week.

[Hatchman]

I get where you are all coming from with Hamilton as he is a bit of a flog, but it's races with conditions like that which show why he is one of the best drivers out there. The difference between his performance and Rosberg was chalk and cheese. Without drivers like him the show would be even duller than it sometimes is anyway

Yes Ric would have won if the pit stop had gone smoothly, but equally both drives were quality. I can understand why Hamilton would think that was a great drive and be rightly pleased about it

On the subject of Ric, I'm fed up with the media here saying he's crap because he doesn't win. That kind of comment makes it clear they haven't done any kind of research whatsoever. "Qualifies well but always finishes 4th" is a direct quote from the radio last week.

The flogs that write these articles most likely have never seen a race or could tell you the difference between an open wheeler and a tin tip. They merely look at stats, qualifying and finish position and give their opinion.
Much like some of the same media flogs that pick best plays for football games at levels below the AFL. Case in point for SANFL games and the rag called the Advertiser. They list them in order of possession count as they are not at the game for even a minute to make a sensible judgement. Not like years gone by where they were actually at games for some period of time.

[mrbluu]

The flogs that write these articles most likely have never seen a race or could tell you the difference between an open wheeler and a tin tip. They merely look at stats, qualifying and finish position and give their opinion.
Much like some of the same media flogs that pick best plays for football games at levels below the AFL. Case in point for SANFL games and the rag called the Advertiser. They list them in order of possession count as they are not at the game for even a minute to make a sensible judgement. Not like years gone by where they were actually at games for some period of time.
See even AFL reporters don't want to watch AFL [emoji13]

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[Hatchman]

See even AFL reporters don't want to watch AFL [emoji13]

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Wouldn't surprise me but I used the SANFL example as I know it to be 100% fact.

[wazamac]

Still pissed off at what happened.
Hamilton is and always be a giant douche bag.
Did I hear correctly that Ricciardo had the new engine for the last race and Verchashin had the old engine.
If so I think they might be putting the willies up Mercedes and Ferrari. Obviously not the best track for pure speed but I was
looking at the speed trap and Red Bull was right up there and faster than the Ferrari's.

[Jazz18]

I get where you are all coming from with Hamilton as he is a bit of a flog, but it's races with conditions like that which show why he is one of the best drivers out there. The difference between his performance and Rosberg was chalk and cheese. Without drivers like him the show would be even duller than it sometimes is anyway

Yes Ric would have won if the pit stop had gone smoothly, but equally both drives were quality. I can understand why Hamilton would think that was a great drive and be rightly pleased about it

On the subject of Ric, I'm fed up with the media here saying he's crap because he doesn't win. That kind of comment makes it clear they haven't done any kind of research whatsoever. "Qualifies well but always finishes 4th" is a direct quote from the radio last week.

There are at least half a dozen drivers that, given the Mercedes to drive, could have brought that race home. They would have been more humble in victory too. He was gifted the race by Red Bull and Nico Rosberg with the brake issues he was having so I don't buy it that he deserves the race and won it rather than having it handed to him. I bet Hamilton wouldn't have pulled over for Rosberg had the roles been reversed. The fact that he believes that he won the race rather than having it handed to him, only proves to me that he is so far away from living in the real world it's not funny. He lives in Lewis land and he is at the centre of that little world in his f&%ked up head of his. What anyone else does or wants in Lewis land does not register with Lewis. He is the only thing in the world. If Lewis gets what he wants, he loves everybody. If Lewis doesn't get what he wants, he is a spoiled little petulant child. He is a brat and needs to grow up.

As for Danny Ric, even though he let a bit fly after Monaco, he is still a class act and a champion. Anyone who says he can't drive does not follow formula 1 so their opinion means diddly squat. Danny Ric is easily in the top 5 drivers on that grid and he will start to win races when the Red Bull catches up to the the Mercedes. And they will catch up.

[coalesce]

You are letting your dislike of Hamilton the person colour your judgement of Hamilton the driver. Name your half a dozen drivers. I can think of maybe 3 others who may have been capable of out-shining Rosberg in the same car to that extent. Alonso, Vettel and maybe Button. Verstappen maybe a 4th but he couldn't keep his competitive car on the track

[Jazz18]

You are letting your dislike of Hamilton the person colour your judgement of Hamilton the driver. Name your half a dozen drivers. I can think of maybe 3 others who may have been capable of out-shining Rosberg in the same car to that extent. Alonso, Vettel and maybe Button. Verstappen maybe a 4th but he couldn't keep his competitive car on the track

Ok, a few key things I think you've forgotten.

1. You CAN NOT PASS at Monaco.

2. Monaco is about as easy as a track can be on tyres. There are really no high speed corners at all so tyre wear is quite minimal compared to all the other tracks.

3. Hamilton was let through by Rosberg when Rosberg had mechanical issues.

4. Rosberg had a slow pit stop behind Hamilton and then got stuck behind the Maclaren.

5. Red Bull stuffed up Danny Ric's pitstop which ALLOWED HAMILTON to go through into the lead.

6. At pretty much any other track where over taking is possible (except maybe Hungaroring where it is also very difficult to pass), Danny Ric would have been able to pass Hamilton with the pace he had and would have likely won the race.

Those six things don't add up to me and say Hamilton out shone Rosberg, nor that he won the race of his own accord. He got a huge lucky card on race day and all the things that needed to happen for him to win, did. For him to say he won it purely based on the strength of his drive, I'm surprised he could see out of the cockpit at all with his head so far up his arse.

Hamilton can drive, no doubt about it. But his over inflated opinion of himself as a driver and a person is becoming ridiculous. How quickly he forgets the 5 years when he was in a car that was not dominant. How'd he do then? The strength of the car in F1 will always superseed the strength of the driver. I mean Damon Hill won a world title for goodness sake and we all know why.

[coalesce]

So I'm confused. Are there half a dozen drivers that would have brought that race home in the Mercedes or could anyone have won it based on everyone moving over? The race I watched had Hamilton doing faster laps on wets than others on inters and outpacing his teammate comfortably.

You can pass at Monaco when the conditions are wet but granted that's why Ric couldn't pass Ham later when it was dry

In each year someone wins a world title they have to beat their team mate in the same car. Hamilton has had to beat Rosberg recently in the same way Damon Hill had to beat Villeneuve

[BenM]

I think Hamilton's a giant douche but I also think he is fantastic at defending, so I have to give him credit for that - he drove hard and he didn't make any mistakes. Having said that, in defending the way he does he pushes the limits of what's fair at times too. That move at the chicane when he outbraked himself then almost put Ricciardo into the wall was very ordinary IMO.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can understand him thinking he earned the victory - he did have to put in some hot laps to get to the position he did to take advantage of Red Bull's mistake, and he did drive well when he got to the front, you can't take either of those things away from him.

[Jazz18]

So I'm confused. Are there half a dozen drivers that would have brought that race home in the Mercedes or could anyone have won it based on everyone moving over? The race I watched had Hamilton doing faster laps on wets than others on inters and outpacing his teammate comfortably.

You can pass at Monaco when the conditions are wet but granted that's why Ric couldn't pass Ham later when it was dry

In each year someone wins a world title they have to beat their team mate in the same car. Hamilton has had to beat Rosberg recently in the same way Damon Hill had to beat Villeneuve

At no point did I say he drove a bad race. He's always been fast, there's no debating that. But the fact that he made a point of saying that nothing was handed to him during that race and he completely earned it on the strength of his drive alone is a crock. The simple fact is, if Red Bull had not had the pit stop error, Ricciardo wins that race. And, as Hamilton has found out recently when he's had mechanical problems, it's hard to keep up with your team mate who's car is fine. To say Hamilton was outpacing Rosberg who was either racing with a broken car or stuck behind a Maclaren just makes no sense.

[Jazz18]

So I'm confused. Are there half a dozen drivers that would have brought that race home in the Mercedes or could anyone have won it based on everyone moving over? The race I watched had Hamilton doing faster laps on wets than others on inters and outpacing his teammate comfortably.

You can pass at Monaco when the conditions are wet but granted that's why Ric couldn't pass Ham later when it was dry

In each year someone wins a world title they have to beat their team mate in the same car. Hamilton has had to beat Rosberg recently in the same way Damon Hill had to beat Villeneuve

P.S Ok, agreed Damon Hill had to beat one bloke for the world championship. But the car he was driving beat everyone else. The point is, Damon Hill was never ever been the best driver on the grid at any point during his F1 career, not even close and yet he won a world championship against Schumacher? That's the car, not the driver.

[wazamac]

Essentially the cars (Hamilton and Rosberg) are the same brand but they are totally different when on the track, being with different setups to suit each individual driver.

[Jazz18]

Essentially the cars (Hamilton and Rosberg) are the same brand but they are totally different when on the track, being with different setups to suit each individual driver.

Yep, totally agree. Hamilton has probably done a better job at setting up his car the last couple of years TP suit him but Rosberg seems to have the upper hand towards the end of last year and this year so far.

[Ron Burgundy]

I don't really get all the Hamilton bashing (apart from him seemingly being mates with Beiber). Yes he's precious and has a massive ego. He's supposed to. It's part of the job requirement. Just like jet pilots or surgeons, to be any good F1 drivers need supreme confidence in their abilities and absolute faith that they are in total control of all situations. If they weren't they couldn't do what they do. It's what separates them from us.

Being a prick as also usually a requirement for being a multiple world champ too. Just look at Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Vettel to name a few. Nice guys finish last in life and they certainly do in F1.

I love watching Hamilton drive and can accept all of the other shit because that's the price you pay for being that good.

[Hatchman]

I think Hamilton's a giant douche but I also think he is fantastic at defending, so I have to give him credit for that - he drove hard and he didn't make any mistakes. Having said that, in defending the way he does he pushes the limits of what's fair at times too. That move at the chicane when he outbraked himself then almost put Ricciardo into the wall was very ordinary IMO.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can understand him thinking he earned the victory - he did have to put in some hot laps to get to the position he did to take advantage of Red Bull's mistake, and he did drive well when he got to the front, you can't take either of those things away from him.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160601/d9b1c80fffa6646ff2f683dffaba70ae.jpg

The other would be Bieber, right?

[Jazz18]

I don't really get all the Hamilton bashing (apart from him seemingly being mates with Beiber). Yes he's precious and has a massive ego. He's supposed to. It's part of the job requirement. Just like jet pilots or surgeons, to be any good F1 drivers need supreme confidence in their abilities and absolute faith that they are in total control of all situations. If they weren't they couldn't do what they do. It's what separates them from us.

Being a prick as also usually a requirement for being a multiple world champ too. Just look at Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Vettel to name a few. Nice guys finish last in life and they certainly do in F1.

I love watching Hamilton drive and can accept all of the other shit because that's the price you pay for being that good.

So, if you're really good at something it's ok to be a prick? That's not ok by me. Danny Ric is as good as anyone on that grid and he is far from being a prick.

[Ron Burgundy]

So, if you're really good at something it's ok to be a prick? That's not ok by me. Danny Ric is as good as anyone on that grid and he is far from being a prick. You have it the wrong way around. Sometimes you need to be a prick to be really good at something.

[Jazz18]

You have it the wrong way around. Sometimes you need to be a prick to be really good at something.

Chicken or the egg Ron. It's a never ending discussion. Who cares which came first. Hamilton is a prick, a sook, a whinger, an entitled arrogant bastard, however you want to describe him. He might be a good race car driver but he's not much of anything else as a person.

[Ron Burgundy]

Hamilton is a prick, a sook, a whinger, an entitled arrogant bastard. Sure. Not disputing that. Again, you can swap 'Hamilton' for 'Senna' or any other multiple world champion and the sentence would hold true. And I loved Senna. We're prosecuting different arguments. The very aspects of Hamilton's personality that you dislike are the essential ingredients that make him the best. It is what it is. Ricciardo seems like a nice guy but there's steel in him as well. I hope he proves me wrong and wins a stack of world titles and stays down to earth, but history suggests that's unlikely.

[Jazz18]

Sure. Not disputing that. Again, you can swap 'Hamilton' for 'Senna' or any other multiple world champion and the sentence would hold true. And I loved Senna. We're prosecuting different arguments. The very aspects of Hamilton's personality that you dislike are the essential ingredients that make him the best. It is what it is. Ricciardo seems like a nice guy but there's steel in him as well. I hope he proves me wrong and wins a stack of world titles and stays down to earth, but history suggests that's unlikely.

I agree, except I don't think Hamilton is the best. I think Alonso is the best at the moment. But we'll never really know I guess. The difference in the performance of the cars creates too many unknowns.

[TourFit]

It seems widely agreed by most in the paddock (including many drivers) that Fernando is probably the best out there...although you'll likely never hear Hamilton, Vettel or the like say so out loud.

[Ron Burgundy]

It seems widely agreed by most in the paddock (including many drivers) that Fernando is probably the best out there...although you'll likely never hear Hamilton, Vettel or the like say so out loud. As the most complete driver over a longer period, I completely agree. Alonso should have won far more titles. What he did in a rubbish Ferrari for all those years was incredible. But for raw speed alone, i.e. being able to find a tenth or two when needed and when the others can't, my money would be on Hamilton. Don't forget Hamilton also out performed Alonso in his debut season, in the same car, while Alonso was the reigning world champion.

[BenM]

As the most complete driver over a longer period, I completely agree. Alonso should have won far more titles. What he did in a rubbish Ferrari for all those years was incredible. But for raw speed alone, i.e. being able to find a tenth or two when needed and when the others can't, my money would be on Hamilton. Don't forget Hamilton also out performed Alonso in his debut season, in the same car, while Alonso was the reigning world champion.

It's interesting isn't it because your last line could equally be applied to Ricciardo vs Vettel. Although it wasn't his debut season, 2014 was his first at Red Bull, and he fairly soundly outperformed the reigning world champ in the same equipment. That speaks volumes about how good he is and what he'd be capable of in a competitive car.

[coalesce]

What that kind of discussion misses as well is the relative set up of a car to driving style. What an Alonso or a Schumacher could do is wrestle some performance from a hunk of junk. Then there are other drivers like Button who are brilliant if the car is designed and set up exactly to match their driving style (like his Brawn was), but then don't seem to have the skills to deal with it otherwise.

I put Rosberg in the second category, and I did put Vettel in it too, but he's beginning to convince me otherwise now he's moved to Ferrari - I really can't explain why he was so poor in his last year at Red Bull relative to his other years, unless it was he really didn't give a shit anymore? The Ric vs Vettel comparison in that year is difficult for the same reason.

[BenM]

But the Red Bull was setup to really suit Vettel's driving style, and he dominated in it for the previous 3(?) years so it's a bit inexplicable that DRic the newbie came in and made him look a bit average unless either Seb wasn't trying very hard, or Ricciardo is just very good. Everyone has seen what a hunger Vettel has for race wins and for speed, witness him pushing at 110% in the final laps of races just to get a FL (and get told off by his engineer for it) so I find it hard to believe that he would consciously back off. I do understand that motivation might suffer when you know you're moving on next season but surely, when the lights go out and you're in the heat of battle all that stuff is the last thing from your mind.

Even now I think Vettel is underperforming in the Ferrari, the car is a little better than the results he's getting (poor reliability doesn't help either). He is spanking Kimi but that's not saying much. I don't think Kimi has much time left in F1, he is a long way past his prime, that accident on Sunday was a pretty good indication of how far he's fallen.

[Jazz18]

I think the new rules for 2014 changed how the cars had to be driven too. Drivers were used to the drivability of the 2013 cars but the 2014 cars changed that aspect of driving an F1 car dramatically. I think that probably helped Ricciardo to a degree when he got to Red Bull because it was essentially a new car for Vettel as well and Ricciardo obviously just adapted faster to the way the new cars needed to be driven at the time.

Looking forward to Red Bull catching the Mercedes and Ferrari to see what Dan can do.

[Jazz18]

BTW, does anyone know what upgrades are coming for McLaren? I heard the are getting some substantial upgrade for Canada or was it another team bringing them there? Also, can anyone explain this token system they use for upgrades? I'm not familiar with how it works.

[rubin]

BTW, does anyone know what upgrades are coming for McLaren? I heard the are getting some substantial upgrade for Canada or was it another team bringing them there? Also, can anyone explain this token system they use for upgrades? I'm not familiar with how it works.

McLaren - big upgrades. Rumour is a new chassis as well as engine and turbo upgrades, and improved deployment of ers.

Second part to answer: simply there is an allowance (tokens) that can be spent on power unit upgrades. Each upgrade is worth an amount of tokens.
I can do more, but it's pages worth


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[Jazz18]

McLaren - big upgrades. Rumour is a new chassis as well as engine and turbo upgrades, and improved deployment of ers.

Second part to answer: simply there is an allowance (tokens) that can be spent on power unit upgrades. Each upgrade is worth an amount of tokens.
I can do more, but it's pages worth


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Thanks Rubin, I thought it was. Would be cool if we could see them back in the mix again.

Ok, cool. So in reality, they could do a lot more development but I'm assuming they only have so many tokens they can spend every year on upgrades. Seems to defeat the purpose of F1, but I know spending can get wild in F1.

[rubin]

Thanks Rubin, I thought it was. Would be cool if we could see them back in the mix again.

Ok, cool. So in reality, they could do a lot more development but I'm assuming they only have so many tokens they can spend every year on upgrades. Seems to defeat the purpose of F1, but I know spending can get wild in F1.

Yes and know. Mclaren seem to have solved the reliability issues they had but wait and see. They are still a long way behind.

The tokens is exactly that, to stop the stupid spending. All its done though is put the spending onto the engine suppliers as they wont sign on a new engine until they've developed it appropriately. A power unit still costs ~20m a piece


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[BenM]

Not only that but the number of tokens available reduces each year, so if one team (eg Mercedes) starts with a dominant engine it's far more difficult for others to catch up.

[Eca]

DRic I reckon is the real deal & his team gotta stop screwin things. I really hope he doesnt move to scuderia.. seem stale there. Red bull on the other hand lookson the up & whilst the legend Adrian Newey is involved there, hope he stays.

[BenM]

He'd be mad to go to Ferrari because it really looks like Red Bull will have the faster car for the next little while, and I don't think there's any way in hell he'd want to go back to being number 2 to Seb (neither would Seb want him there either). Williams / McLaren aren't competitive enough. The only place he could possibly go is Merc if the Rosberg/Hamilton situation escalates much more and they decide to split them up (unlikely). So I think he is going to be staying at RBR for a while longer.

[wazamac]

Vettel said at the last race that he likes the driver combo to stay the way it is. I guess it's because he doesn't want to get out shined by a better driver.

[rubin]

Not only that but the number of tokens available reduces each year, so if one team (eg Mercedes) starts with a dominant engine it's far more difficult for others to catch up.

Not anymore. They did away with that


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[rubin]

Vettel said at the last race that he likes the driver combo to stay the way it is. I guess it's because he doesn't want to get out shined by a better driver.

Vettel also has the same veto power on his teammate that alonso had as well.


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[BenM]

Not anymore. They did away with that


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Ahh fair enough. I thought they'd reduced the number of tokens overall but still kept them tapering off.

Outside of watching every race I don't think I follow the finer details anywhere near as closely as some!

[Jazz18]

Little bit of a Rosberg procession in Baku unfortunately. Thought there may have been heaps more action but they all behaved themselves very well for the most part. Was great seeing the long straight and the cars on full throttle for so long and making some passes.

Interesting that Rosberg and Hamilton had the same problem during the race and Rosberg could fix it but the boy wonder could not. Anyone know anything more about it that wasn't on the Foxtel telecast?

Overall though I thought it was a great venue. Looked like a beautiful city too.

[rubin]

In interviews following, apparently Rosberg knew what to do as the issue had happened previously to him, but not to Hamilton.


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[Progolfgear]

Little bit of a Rosberg procession in Baku unfortunately. Thought there may have been heaps more action but they all behaved themselves very well for the most part. Was great seeing the long straight and the cars on full throttle for so long and making some passes.

Interesting that Rosberg and Hamilton had the same problem during the race and Rosberg could fix it but the boy wonder could not. Anyone know anything more about it that wasn't on the Foxtel telecast?

Overall though I thought it was a great venue. Looked like a beautiful city too.

I didn't go much on the track, too much priority on top speed for my liking.

[Jazz18]

In interviews following, apparently Rosberg knew what to do as the issue had happened previously to him, but not to Hamilton.


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Thanks, yeah I saw Toto explain that but wasn't sure if there was anything further. Seems strange that they would not have used that knowledge the envious time it happened to Rosberg to up skill the resident rapper.

[rubin]

There was no need at the time. They thought they solved it


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[coalesce]

Hamilton started in the engine mode that had the problem whereas Rosberg switched into it mid race so it was easier for him to realise it was the problem. Team radio restrictions meant that the team could give better clues to Rosberg than Hamilton. I did read an article with the radio transcripts but I can't find it now

[Jazz18]

Cracking race at Spielberg. Loved the mixed up grid at the start. Dumb move by Rosberg at turn 2 on the final lap though. Probably a good thing the whiny baby won the race though. He would have had a major sook if he didn't and I don't know that Mercedes would have been able to clean up all the dummies left behind!

[rubin]

Cracking race at Spielberg. Loved the mixed up grid at the start. Dumb move by Rosberg at turn 2 on the final lap though. Probably a good thing the whiny baby won the race though. He would have had a major sook if he didn't and I don't know that Mercedes would have been able to clean up all the dummies left behind!

That Rosberg is trying to justify etc is making him look pretty bad imo.

Fair enough, defend your position, run him wide, but u can't run him off the track (Spain repeat??) regardless of who it is. I would hazard a guess and say that if it was another team, he wouldn't have been as aggressive.


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[Jazz18]

That Rosberg is trying to justify etc is making him look pretty bad imo.

Fair enough, defend your position, run him wide, but u can't run him off the track (Spain repeat??) regardless of who it is. I would hazard a guess and say that if it was another team, he wouldn't have been as aggressive.


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Yep, I agree. Not sure where he expected Hamilton to go. A car can't just vanish into thin air. Not a good look.

[wazamac]

Will Rosberg jump ship if he wins the Championship?
I don't think he will go if he doesn't win cause he will have less of a chance with Ferrari.

[Ron Burgundy]

Will Rosberg jump ship if he wins the Championship? I don't think he will go if he doesn't win cause he will have less of a chance with Ferrari. I doubt it. At Ferrari he'd only ever be a number 2 driver. At Mercedes he isn't number 2 (other than mentally).

[Jazz18]

I don't think Ferrari would be interested in him anyway. I don't see a place for him on the grid unless it's at Mercedes.

[wazamac]

Rosberg gets a 10 second penalty.
Personally I don't think Rosberg should have coped it, the team should have lost the points instead.

[Ron Burgundy]

What Verstappen is doing out there since his promotion is ridiculous. He is absolutely killing it. How's the balls on that kid to be pulling off moves like that and the skill to get it done all weekend, at only 18?!

[wazamac]

Quite Large, but I've always maintained that the biggest balls belong to the WRC Drivers

[Hatchman]

Quite Large, but I've always maintained that the biggest balls belong to the WRC Drivers

True that.
Their race environment is no way near as controlled as pavement racing.

[Jazz18]

Quite Large, but I've always maintained that the biggest balls belong to the WRC Drivers


True that.
Their race environment is no way near as controlled as pavement racing.

But it's no where near as fast and they don't even come close to driving the same way either. Rally is about driving without traction most of the time and F1 is all about having grip. They are not comparable really.

I will say though, if you saw that move that Verstappen pulled at Blanchimont in the Belgian GP last year, I'm surprised that kid can fit in the cockpit of his car with nuts as big as that. That move was made at over 200mph, around the outside of another car and along the grass!

[wazamac]

Some Interesting viewing of onboard cameras on classic F1 cars

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mF-yv1WAQw

[Jazz18]

Great qualifying from Ricciardo in Germany last night. Looks like the Red Bulls are getting closer to the Mercs. Let's hope they can put some pressure on them during the race.

Always love seeing Hamilton get done for pole or in a race. So funny seeing him sulk in a press conference.

[BenM]

Yeah he's never happy when he gets beaten but I don't blame him for that, it's what makes him a racing driver.

I had lots of beers under my belt by the time qualy was on and didn't get to watch it properly but was very happy with the result, let's hope Ricciardo has another great start like last week and gives them a bit of a scare. I don't think he can win unless disaster strikes both Mercs but there's every chance he'll be third in the championship after this race.

[Jazz18]

Yeah he's never happy when he gets beaten but I don't blame him for that, it's what makes him a racing driver.

I had lots of beers under my belt by the time qualy was on and didn't get to watch it properly but was very happy with the result, let's hope Ricciardo has another great start like last week and gives them a bit of a scare. I don't think he can win unless disaster strikes both Mercs but there's every chance he'll be third in the championship after this race.

Yeah I know what you mean but there's a difference between being unhappy about it and being a sook. Hamilton is a sook. Look at Palmer last weekend. He pretty much screwed up a race win for that team (10th is like a race win for Renault) and he was still grown up enough to talk to the media and communicate what happened. Hamilton just sulks and is short and terse. It's time he grew up.

I hope Ricciardo charges off the line and takes it to the Mercs too. Would love him to at least push them to the finish. Hope he at least gets on the podium again.

[damoocow]

Quite Large, but I've always maintained that the biggest balls belong to the WRC Drivers

WRC would easily trump FI but they are both pussy sports compared to the IOMTT or any Irish road race.

[KristianJ]

On the subject of sulking...Kvyat was more than that after he was interviewed post his Q1 exit. Looked like he'd just come out of a meeting with Marko and was told this was the end...very defeatist and sombre mood.

I wonder whether he will indeed be still in the car come Spa, or if they go to another extreme and put Pierre Gasly in the car.

[BenM]

I read today that Kvyat is gone for next season, contract won't be renewed....

[Jazz18]

I don't know if I'd say Kvyat was sulking. I thought he looked like a beaten man. I feel sorry for the guy actually. While it was a good move from Red Bull to demote him in place of Verstappen, given the results since, it's basically gone from bad to worse for him since that happened. All the wind has been knocked out of him and it damn sure looks like it's gone for good. Hadn't heard his contract won't be renewed but not surprised to learn that at all. Red Bull are ruthless with their drivers and I think it's ruined him.

[KristianJ]

Quality stint here by DRic...wouldn't mind a gremlin to suddenly materialise for the #44.

[BenM]

Yeah he's looking very good for P2 at the moment.

[Jazz18]

Great drive for Ricciardo in Germany. Good to see the Red Bull race pace getting closer to the Mercs. Should be interesting to see if they can pinch a win or two after the summer break. Singapore has to be a great chance for them but can't wait for Spa. Best track of the year IMO.

[wazamac]

Great Race last night with a big accident by Magnussen.
Interesting after the Red Flag that Hamilton wasn't really catching Danny Ric with a great deal of pace. I don't think Red Bull have picked up the pace that much compared to Mercedes.

[Doofus]

Was very surprised to see the renault driver walk away from that relatively injury free. Bet his sore this morning thought.

[Jazz18]

Great result for Ricciardo. He was certainly happy about it after the race. Was funny how he put Webber on spot to drink out of his racing shoe! Ha!

Hopefully gonna see more cars arch up to the Mercedes. Was starting to get a bit of a procession at the front so it's about time we saw the Mercs coming back to the field. Want to see more cars get closer to Mercedes cause I'm sick of seeing those 2 on the podium.

[wazamac]

Even funnier how Hamilton and Rosberg never even make eye contact in the room before the podium.

[Jazz18]

Even funnier how Hamilton and Rosberg never even make eye contact in the room before the podium.

I know. So precious. Can't believe they aren't kicked to the kerb! Bloody babies.

[Hatchman]

I know. So precious. Can't believe they aren't kicked to the kerb! Bloody babies.

Why would they. They are winning races.
In F1 teams eyes you can be the biggest douche on the planet but if you win races they don't really care unless it's excessively bad enough to lose sponsorship.
You only need to be a good guy/person if your not winning.

[wazamac]

I know there is a certain amount of ego that comes with the job, and not everybody gets on with people in the workplace, but in a close knit community like a Formula One team there should be at least a little bit of acknowledgement of a good drive. At least Rico said on the podium "congrats to Lewis on his performance" without even a smile from the snot nosed brit.
From personal experience I have played golf with people I can't stand but still acknowledge a good shot and shake their hand at the end of a round.
Goes the other way as well with people that can't stand me I guess.

[Jazz18]

Why would they. They are winning races.
In F1 teams eyes you can be the biggest douche on the planet but if you win races they don't really care unless it's excessively bad enough to lose sponsorship.
You only need to be a good guy/person if your not winning.

I think it looks bad for the image of the sport. These snot nosed little weasels aren't solving any world peace issues or the any human rights abominations around the world, all they can do is drive a car really fast. If that's you're only skill, surely it's not that hard to be a decent person at the same time. Put Ricciardo in that Mercedes and I bet he's a world champion as well and he would still be the same bloke. You don't have to be a spoiled brat to be good, that's just how some of them are unfortunately.

And as for kicking them to the kerb, there's a dozen more guys standing behind the last guy into F1 that could do what Hamilton or Rosberg do in that car. Wait till the rest of them catch up to them and we'll see how good they really are. I'm betting there will be a lot more dummy spits from both those drivers when they aren't winning every week and they realise they're not as good as they think they are.

[coalesce]

All they are there for is to drive the car really fast. You'll note the "pay" drivers that bring sponsorship money to the smaller teams aren't generally regarded as being the best drivers. In the other scenario the sponsors go to the successful drivers.

Look through the history of the competition and it is littered with drivers that did not get on and weren't PR darlings - and some of those would have been teammates. I'm pretty sure you are just constructing an argument to support that you just don't like Hamilton.

[Jazz18]

All they are there for is to drive the car really fast. You'll note the "pay" drivers that bring sponsorship money to the smaller teams aren't generally regarded as being the best drivers. In the other scenario the sponsors go to the successful drivers.

Look through the history of the competition and it is littered with drivers that did not get on and weren't PR darlings - and some of those would have been teammates. I'm pretty sure you are just constructing an argument to support that you just don't like Hamilton.

Hamilton doesn't need my help to prove he's a douche bag.

[KristianJ]

Lewis has a brolly out during the Italian anthem. Time to bump that thread about using an umbrella on a hot day...

[Jazz18]

Lewis has a brolly out during the Italian anthem. Time to bump that thread about using an umbrella on a hot day...

As per post #117 :)

[wazamac]

Little bit of a boring race last night as Monza usual is. Just a speed fest.
Did I hear correctly that Williams offered a drive to Button and this was Kyvat's last race?

[BenM]

Since Massa has announced his retirement at the end of the season it wouldn't surprise me if they're sniffing round Button.

To be honest I watched the race but I dozed most of the way through, as you say it was a snooze fest! Ricciardo's pass on Bottas towards the end was pretty good though - and good driving from Bottas to give him room, he came from a looong way back!

[Jazz18]

Yeah Ricky Bobby's move on Bottas was awesome. Was a pretty dull race for the most part.

Williams were in the hunt for Button but he's got another 2 year deal with McLaren. He's taking a "sabbatical" next year with an option to come back and drive in 2018.

Sky Sports mentioned they had heard rumours that It would be Kvyats last race but nothing confirmed. At Spa, Horner said that Red Bull racing intended to keep Kvyat at Torro Rosso till the end of 2018 but things can change quickly I guess.

[wazamac]

Watched the GP2 race on the Saturday and Gasly is pretty talented. Should of won if there wasn't the big debarcle with the safety car picking up the wrong car.
Gasly is the next in line for a seat at Red Bull/ Toro Rosso.

[Jazz18]

Watched the GP2 race on the Saturday and Gasly is pretty talented. Should of won if there wasn't the big debarcle with the safety car picking up the wrong car.
Gasly is the next in line for a seat at Red Bull/ Toro Rosso.

Ok. I don't follow any of the othe formulas so the first I ever hear about them is when they talk about who's coming through or when they turn up on the grid. Like Estaban Ocon. Never heard of him till he was put into the MRT. Sounds like there's a chance he'll be getting a drive soon for TR.

[mrbluu]

Little bit of a boring race last night as Monza usual is. Just a speed fest.


You don't like fast races?? Maybe you should watch the Walking at the Olympics....:mrgreen:

[wazamac]

I do watch the walking, and enjoy it! :D

[wazamac]

Interesting. Liberty Media is buying Formula 1 for 4.4bn.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37303230

[chappy1970]

Wow 🤑

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[Jazz18]

Yep, interesting times for F1 given the regulation changes for next year as well.

[wazamac]

Great race last night with an exciting finish. I didn't think that Dan would catch Rosberg though but was only 0.4 sec in it.

[Doofus]

My favorite part was the dumb ass marshal running down the straight.I'm sure someone ran into that track last year too.

[Jazz18]

Was one of the better races this year. Some really good racing through the field. Exciting start with the Hulkenburg crash and exciting finish with Ricciardo catching Rosberg. Good stuff all round. Enjoyed Kvyat holding off Verstappen a couple of times during the race before he couldn't hold on anymore. Seems like he might have gotten his mojo back as well.

[wazamac]

He did say this was the first race where he felt the passion for the sport again.

[Jazz18]

He did say this was the first race where he felt the passion for the sport again.

Yeah I saw that interview. Was great to see a smile on his face again as opposed to the shell of a man we saw a couple of races ago. I hope he can continue to build on that and show some of the form that he has showed in the past. He's a good driver.

[wazamac]

Only got to see up until Lap 35 yesterday before having to head out for tea. Just finished watching the highlights on the F1 website.
Great to see Red Bull make up for wrong doings in Monaco.

[Doofus]

Only got to see up until Lap 35 yesterday before having to head out for tea. Just finished watching the highlights on the F1 website.Great to see Red Bull make up for wrong doings in Monaco. I kept expecting that little verstapen prick to overtake dan though. Glad he listened to the team for a change.

[Jazz18]

It was another good race.mglad too some new colours on the top 2 steps of the podium and so happy for Ricciardo. He's definitely driven well enough for a race win this year so it's well deserved.

Haven't seen the response to the premier F1 sook's comments about his engines but it will be interesting to see if there's any fallout from it. Sounded like sour grapes to me. That's just racing sometimes.

[wazamac]

Watched the replay last night, and when the guys were up on the podium, someone tapped Toto on the shoulder and showed him a phone.
Wonder if it was the sook's comments on twitter and if so will he be told to pull his head in like Grosjean?

[BenM]

Yeah I was super excited for Ricciardo. His battle with Verstappen was great to watch, and that was what ultimately won him the race.

Hamilton is unhappy, but that's nothing new. He's never happy unless he's winning.

[Dotty]

Rosberg quits!

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/38185846

[BenM]

Big bombshell. Musical chairs coming!

[wazamac]

Maybe have a year off, then race in the DTM?

Who's the favourite for the seat? Do you think DanRic or Vestappen have just had phone calls offering another 10 mill.

[BenM]

Maybe have a year off, then race in the DTM?

Who's the favourite for the seat? Do you think DanRic or Vestappen have just had phone calls offering another 10 mill.

Maybe but I think they'd be mad to move as I think the Red Bull will be right in the hunt next year. Red Bull would also be very reluctant to let Verstappen go since they've invested so much in him. Ricciardo maybe not so much but IMHO Merc would be looking for a young gun to complement Lewis.

Ocon or Sainz are names being bandied about. But really it's anyone's guess what will happen....

[wazamac]

I just read that Bottas may be a chance as well. Mercedes offer Williams cheaper Engines and Wherlien in exchange for Bottas' signature.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/f1-2017-grid-what-next-seasons-teamdriver-lineup-looks-like-after-nico-rosbergs-shock-retirement/news-story/cd717606a5db5210f44a93363647d9d7

[oldracer]

Danny Ric would never join Hamilton, been there done that with Vettel

[Jazz18]

I just read that Bottas may be a chance as well. Mercedes offer Williams cheaper Engines and Wherlien in exchange for Bottas' signature.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/f1-2017-grid-what-next-seasons-teamdriver-lineup-looks-like-after-nico-rosbergs-shock-retirement/news-story/cd717606a5db5210f44a93363647d9d7

I was thinking Wherlien before I read this. What you've said makes a bit of sense though. I don't think Williams would mind that deal at all actually. I'd rate Wherlien over Bottas. Should be interesting to see developments.

[coalesce]

Would love to see Button go there for a year while they wait for someone longer term to be available but it's not gonna happen

[AlexMc]

Alonso apparently.

[Jazz18]

Alonso apparently.

Wow! Haven't seen anything about this. Where did you see?

[Ron Burgundy]

I saw it on BBC sport and a couple of other places this morning as one of the options Mercedes are looking at. Surely not though. Do they not remember what happened the last time those two were on the same team...

[coalesce]

I saw it on BBC sport and a couple of other places this morning as one of the options Mercedes are looking at. Surely not though. Do they not remember what happened the last time those two were on the same team...

That was more about Ron Dennis and What he promised Alonso rather than Hamilton/Alonso not getting on. I think it would be similar to the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship, although if Alonso hasn't lost it, there might be more days Hamilton is genuinely beaten for race pace than there was this year

I still think it will be someone junior pending someone like Alonso being out of contract for the following year if the junior doesn't work out

[Jazz18]

That was more about Ron Dennis and What he promised Alonso rather than Hamilton/Alonso not getting on. I think it would be similar to the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship, although if Alonso hasn't lost it, there might be more days Hamilton is genuinely beaten for race pace than there was this year

I still think it will be someone junior pending someone like Alonso being out of contract for the following year if the junior doesn't work out

Check the stats for the year. They are closer than you might think. Rosberg only had one less win and won the fastest lap trophy for the year as well as the world championship obviously, so I'm not sure what you mean by more days that Hamilton might get beaten for pace if Alonso was around in a Merc. He was genuinely beaten for pace plenty of times this year by Rosberg.

It would be great to see him beaten for pace even more though :)

[rubin]

That was more about Ron Dennis and What he promised Alonso rather than Hamilton/Alonso not getting on. I think it would be similar to the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship, although if Alonso hasn't lost it, there might be more days Hamilton is genuinely beaten for race pace than there was this year

I still think it will be someone junior pending someone like Alonso being out of contract for the following year if the junior doesn't work out


Check the stats for the year. They are closer than you might think. Rosberg only had one less win and won the fastest lap trophy for the year as well as the world championship obviously, so I'm not sure what you mean by more days that Hamilton might get beaten for pace if Alonso was around in a Merc. He was genuinely beaten for pace plenty of times this year by Rosberg.

It would be great to see him beaten for pace even more though :)

Coalesce is correct. The ‘stats’ on places alone don’t show the retirements etc that plagued Hamilton throughout the season, and the penalties that they bought with it. It was widely known throughout the paddock that Hamilton is a faster driver, which goes to show how close he got to the championship win, even with the penalties and issues he had this year.


And the fastest lap award means nothing – anyone can pick up a fastest lap in a race on low fuel (i.e at the end) fresh tyres and clear air for a lap or two.

Finally, I very highly doubt Alonso will have a way out of his McLaren contract, without seriously bulk money coming from Mercedes to do so. Honda entered F1, on the proviso Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel were the lead driver.


For my money, it will be either,


Wherlein promoted from Marussia.
Ocon to Mercedes (rather than Force India) and Wherlein to FI
Or, best case scenario, Bottas to Mercedes (with some big Merc power unit discounts to Williams, and either Ocon or Wherlein as well).


Red Bull won’t release their guys at all, and I doubt Renault will let Hulkenburg get out of his contract. Mclaren are going to be pretty tight, and lets face it, have enough money that people can’t really be bought anyway, and Ferrari are Ferrari. It will be a current Merc driver, from one of the teams.

[rubin]

Top give you a better idea, see the following from www.f1fanatic.co.uk (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/):

Lewis Hamilton had a more successful season than Nico Rosberg by many significant metrics including race wins, podium finishes and pole positions. But the points tally is what counts and there Nico Rosberg pipped him by five, ending Hamilton’s two-year reign as champion.
Note that while technical problems during qualifying for Hamilton have been cited as a significant reason behind why he lost the 2016 championship, they did not stop him out-qualifying Rosberg as many times as he did last year.
Another striking feature of the Mercedes drivers’ seasons is how the balance of power shifted between them. Rosberg began the season and came back from the summer break more strongly then Hamilton, whose defeats to Rosberg during these parts of the season can only partly be blamed on unreliability.

[Jazz18]

I'm not debating that Hamilton is faster. I can't stand the little snot, but he can drive fast. That's always been my point, that's all he's got going for him really. Other than a bucket load of money. Nothing else of substance there.

Coalesce was saying that perhaps Alonso would be faster than Hamilton on a more regular basis than Rosberg had been this year. Ok, fastest laps may not mean much but I was merely pointing out that Rosberg has done a pretty good job of being faster than Hamilton on many occasions this year. Perhaps it's already been forgotten that including the last 3 races last year, Rosberg won 7 in a row and Hamilton was his team mate for each of those races. Seems Rosberg has beaten Hamilton on plenty of regular occasions in the last year or so.

Like I said though, would like to see more of it. I think you could 4 or 5 other drivers in the Merc from the last three years and they would all have won and/or come second in the championship as Hailton and Rosberg did the last three years. Yes Hamilton might be quick but there are others just as quick if not quicker with the same car.

[rubin]

I'm not debating that Hamilton is faster. I can't stand the little snot, but he can drive fast. That's always been my point, that's all he's got going for him really. Other than a bucket load of money. Nothing else of substance there.

Coalesce was saying that perhaps Alonso would be faster than Hamilton on a more regular basis than Rosberg had been this year. Ok, fastest laps may not mean much but I was merely pointing out that Rosberg has done a pretty good job of being faster than Hamilton on many occasions this year. Perhaps it's already been forgotten that including the last 3 races last year, Rosberg won 7 in a row and Hamilton was his team mate for each of those races. Seems Rosberg has beaten Hamilton on plenty of regular occasions in the last year or so.

Like I said though, would like to see more of it. I think you could 4 or 5 other drivers in the Merc from the last three years and they would all have won and/or come second in the championship as Hailton and Rosberg did the last three years. Yes Hamilton might be quick but there are others just as quick if not quicker with the same car.

I agree, and echo Brundle’s comments on Sky:
“Any driver on the current grid, would win with this Mercedes”

Having said that, I would suggest there are only a handful of drivers who could actually and truly match Hamilton over an extended period (keeping in mind Hamilton has outperformed Rosberg every year as a team mate, except for this year, and including junior catagories).

I think Alonso would certainly push Hamilton more than Rosberg did, but I also think Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vettel and probably Raikonnen would do as well. Ocon would in a few years (development stage), and probably the same for Vandoorne.

[coalesce]

Having said that, I would suggest there are only a handful of drivers who could actually and truly match Hamilton over an extended period (keeping in mind Hamilton has outperformed Rosberg every year as a team mate, except for this year, and including junior catagories).

I think Alonso would certainly push Hamilton more than Rosberg did, but I also think Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vettel and probably Raikonnen would do as well. Ocon would in a few years (development stage), and probably the same for Vandoorne.


This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Less sure about Vettel/Raikkonnen. Vettel is a bit like Button in that if the car suits him he is sublime but less so when the car is a dog. Alonso at Ferrari showed that he can wag the dog

[rubin]

I guess im also thinking of how next years cars will perform, with the downforce levels and stuff – also thinking of Alonso in the v10 era, and Vettel with the super downforce of the 10/11/12 Red Bull.

I get the feeling a lot of the new kids/younger guys are going to struggle next year with the physicality of the cars. Without going to full ‘ground effects’ the cars are going to be sucked to the ground, and the cornering speed is expected to be north of 30% faster, and I have read some articles where with the new reg’s, Newey has been able to develop a new way of almost sealing the floor.

[Jazz18]

I agree with Brundle as well. Hard to lose with that car.

I'm looking forward to the new cars next year but I don't keep up with all the technical aspects of the sport in too much detail. I knew they were expecting faster cornering speeds from next years cars but I didn't realise it was that much more.

Maybe with the reg changes, the faster guys now won't be next year. As Dan Ricciardo has already said, it will be totally different physically in the car. Maybe the small guys like Vettel and Hamilton will struggle and larger drivers like Ricciardo, Verstappen and Hulkenburg will dominate. Of course they will need the car underneath them to be great though.

Should be interesting.

[rubin]

From a technical point of view, the last time an F1 car produced enough downforce to drive upside down, was either the 2010 or 2011 Red Bull (I can’t recall which one), which was down about 15 – 20% on downforce of the V10 era cars.

The new reg’s will put downforce back to that of the mid 2000’s, which were almost the peak of downforce regs (without ground effect), and with more efficient, more torque from the power units. Peak power is largely unchanged from 10 – 15 years ago.

Because of the increased torque the power units provide, the cars can achieve higher velocity through corners, as peak torque (effectively power to turn the wheels) comes in so much earlier in the rpm range. Their peak straight line velocity will be lower than recent years (increased downforce will inevitably increase drag, just not to the same extent), but F1 has never been about straight line speed.

The drivers at the end of next year will look physically stronger in the upper body, as they will have to be to cope with the increased G force. Both Ricciardo and Hamilton have been quoted recently as saying they are looking forward to doing some actual weight training, rather than primarily cardio and building some muscle.

I think Verstappen, and possibly Wherlein will struggle next year initially (young guys, immature bodies etc), and guys like ricciardo, sainz, bottas, perez will shine. I also think it will be a good time for the Vandoornes and Stroll’s to come in, as they don’t need to ‘unlearn’ any bad habits picked up from overtorqued/under pressured cars.

[Jazz18]

Sounds like you've got a handle on the technical side of things. The cars and regs are so complex. What is a good source of information to learn more about the technical side of things? I'm not a mechanic or a mechanical engineer but do know a bit about cars so it doesn't have to be too basic for me to follow.

Should be good. Hopefully they have fixed the sound issue as well. The lack of noise has been a big loss in the enjoyment of F1 for me and I'm sure many others.

[rubin]

Sounds like you've got a handle on the technical side of things. The cars and regs are so complex. What is a good source of information to learn more about the technical side of things? I'm not a mechanic or a mechanical engineer but do know a bit about cars so it doesn't have to be too basic for me to follow.

Should be good. Hopefully they have fixed the sound issue as well. The lack of noise has been a big loss in the enjoyment of F1 for me and I'm sure many others.

I have to admit, I do have a head start – I spent the first 18 months at uni doing aerodynamic engineering before realising the job prospects where pretty slim. I still read up on it, and try to remain as current as possible on it all, and fully ‘nerd out’ on the technical side of F1. I also grew up in a family full of mechanics and mechanical engineers etc, so I picked up a bit from that.

As far as trying to pick up on the more tech aspects, racecar engineering does a pretty good job of putting it into laymans terms http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/ (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/) and go into some decent details on the power units, energy recovery and the like. Worth having a look at when you get a spare 15/20 minutes (the articles are pretty in depth).

[Jazz18]

I have to admit, I do have a head start – I spent the first 18 months at uni doing aerodynamic engineering before realising the job prospects where pretty slim. I still read up on it, and try to remain as current as possible on it all, and fully ‘nerd out’ on the technical side of F1. I also grew up in a family full of mechanics and mechanical engineers etc, so I picked up a bit from that.

As far as trying to pick up on the more tech aspects, racecar engineering does a pretty good job of putting it into laymans terms http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/ (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/) and go into some decent details on the power units, energy recovery and the like. Worth having a look at when you get a spare 15/20 minutes (the articles are pretty in depth).


I thought it sounded like you had some extra knowledge there. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[rubin]

News overnight that Williams are set to release Bottas to Mercedes for a considerable discount on the engine supply (quotes coming out almost 70% disc.), and Wherlein to replace Bottas (Mercedes will continue to pay Wherlein).

Williams have a small issue with two very young drivers, and a major Alcohol marque as title sponsor. Neither driver is of legal drinking age in the US (a key Martini market), And they are quite wary of having two young, inexperienced drivers in a car where their points haul in the Constructors championship can mean life or death to the team

[Jazz18]

News overnight that Williams are set to release Bottas to Mercedes for a considerable discount on the engine supply (quotes coming out almost 70% disc.), and Wherlein to replace Bottas (Mercedes will continue to pay Wherlein).

Williams have a small issue with two very young drivers, and a major Alcohol marque as title sponsor. Neither driver is of legal drinking age in the US (a key Martini market), And they are quite wary of having two young, inexperienced drivers in a car where their points haul in the Constructors championship can mean life or death to the team


Thanks for the news rubin. Even though Wehrlein has only been with Manor in F1, he seems to have shown he has some speed. I didn't understand why Ocon got the Force India drive over Wehrlein as it always seemed as though Wehrlein was faster than Ocon.

Will be interesting to see how the young guns go at Williams. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be worried about a young Verstappen in the car, so as long as their 2 youngsters can deliver points, I can't see them having an issue with sponsors because of their age.

Not sure if I'm right in saying either but I wouldn't have thought they'd want Bottas in the Merc. He hasn't seemed that fast of late. Might just be the Williams hasn't been fast enough but Bottas didn't seem to feature much this year like he did a little last year.

[rubin]

Thanks for the news rubin. Even though Wehrlein has only been with Manor in F1, he seems to have shown he has some speed. I didn't understand why Ocon got the Force India drive over Wehrlein as it always seemed as though Wehrlein was faster than Ocon.

Will be interesting to see how the young guns go at Williams. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be worried about a young Verstappen in the car, so as long as their 2 youngsters can deliver points, I can't see them having an issue with sponsors because of their age.

Not sure if I'm right in saying either but I wouldn't have thought they'd want Bottas in the Merc. He hasn't seemed that fast of late. Might just be the Williams hasn't been fast enough but Bottas didn't seem to feature much this year like he did a little last year.
I agree that Bottas hasn't appeared as quick - but the only true guide is his teammate (Massa) and he absolutely belted him all season. I think it was more car than Driver personally.

[TourFit]

Agreed. I think Bottas has been quick for most of his career, and he gave Massa a lesson this year (and no doubt helped hasten his retirement).

I bet Hulkenberg is kicking himself!!! He would have been the perfect fit for Merc, and it is the "big" team drive that he perhaps should've had years ago. I'm hoping that the move he made isn't a step backwards for him, as I really rate him and have done for a long time.

[rubin]

disagree.

Hulkenburg is very good, but the reason he hasn't been in a front running team yet is simple - he's too big.

[coalesce]

Size may be less of an issue next year tho - the cars will be much more physically demanding on the drivers, which may disadvantage the smaller/younger guys

[TourFit]

Size may be less of an issue next year tho - the cars will be much more physically demanding on the drivers, which may disadvantage the smaller/younger guys

Definately so. That's partly what I was alluding to about Hulkenberg.

[rubin]

There will still be a weight limit, and unfortunately for the taller guys (like Hulkenburg) size will always be an issue.

Its not the actual weight of the car, it’s the ability to use the ballast to adapt the handling and performance of the car itself. Weight too far forward will create a very pointy car at the detriment to low speed traction. Weight to rearward will create understeer.

As an example – in Monaco, 2/3 of the ballast available in the red bull is in front of the drivers footline, whereas Monza (the opposite type of track) the ballast is almost over the rear driveline.

[Jazz18]

I agree that Bottas hasn't appeared as quick - but the only true guide is his teammate (Massa) and he absolutely belted him all season. I think it was more car than Driver personally.

Yeah, I had a feeling it must have just been the car. Yep, you're right, Massa didn't go anywhere this year either and was behind Bottas pretty much every week.

Hopefully Renault come good in the next couple of seasons. Would like to see Hulkenburg with a great car underneath him to see what his real potential is. He's always seemed quick to me so reckon he just needs a great car to see some great results.

[coalesce]

https://twitter.com/f1/status/808351447624495105

[wazamac]

I do like the bit with having to find the tyres.

Didn't at the time though.

[Jazz18]

There was a re run of the 2016 Monaco GP on Fox the other day. I can't believe I recorded it to be tortured all over again!