DSR & Course Rating Discusion or Rants

[Hatchman]

Thought there was a thread for discussing the wired and wonderful DSR rating system used to tell us how well or poorly in most instances we've played on the day. Trawled through numerous pages and couldn't seem to find the right thread to jot my ramblings although the perplex, bemuse could be appropriate.

Well here goes a one stop thread for all to discuss or vent about how the system classifies how you played against the course, field and your hcp.

[Captain Nemo]

I don't give a **** about it and don't really care.
My 2cents.

[AndyP]

I don't give a **** about it and don't really care.
My 2cents.
My golf only got better once I stopped caring about the handicapping system.

[Hatchman]

My home track is one of those courses that as a general rule sees a fair fluctuation in the DSR from winter to summer. We get no run/roll in the winter but come the dryer months and there's heaps of run for the shorter and low flight hitters. The greens tend to get a touch slower in the summer as we cut them higher to stop patches browning or burning off. This tends to make them bumpier and not as true to putt on. Those are the only significant changes to course or playing conditions. Forget wind and rain as that can occur all year.

My home course is Par 73, ACR 72 and Slope 128.
In winter the DSR is mostly around 72-74.
In summer the DSR has regularly been 70.

I was a bit bemused to see the DSR on the week of 72. The reason for my bemusement is that I have played 4 singles games at home in the last 6 weeks. The conditions for play and the condition of the course e.g. Fairway firmness/dry and green speed/firmness has been the same. Yet during this period the rating has ranged from 69 to 72. Field size has been our usual 50-70.

Week 1: I had 38pts and felt I played well to get that but the rating was 69 so the system deems I didn't play well and was over hcp.
Week 2: I had 38pts again and felt I played good but not as good as the week before. Rating was 70 and system deems I played better than the week before. Still over hcp.
Week 3: I had 35pts and felt I was a long way off playing as good as the other two rounds. Rating was 70 again so deems it was a good round for someone playing in B grade.
Week 4: I have 37pts and I felt it wasn't that hard to get that many in the end. Was expecting to see another 69-70 rating but upon checking how many pts I get extra with the best flag round dropping out the DSR was 72 so only gained 0.1.

All rounds there was never anymore than a 1 club breeze from the same direction each week. The tee blocks were all off the blues with no more than 2-3m difference.

Im not p!ssed about, I just find it interesting and thought I'd share.

[3oneday]

It's just an expensive CCR.

[benno_r]

My home track is one of those courses that as a general rule sees a fair fluctuation in the DSR from winter to summer. We get no run/roll in the winter but come the dryer months and there's heaps of run for the shorter and low flight hitters. The greens tend to get a touch slower in the summer as we cut them higher to stop patches browning or burning off. This tends to make them bumpier and not as true to putt on. Those are the only significant changes to course or playing conditions. Forget wind and rain as that can occur all year.

My home course is Par 73, ACR 72 and Slope 128.
In winter the DSR is mostly around 72-74.
In summer the DSR has regularly been 70.

I was a bit bemused to see the DSR on the week of 72. The reason for my bemusement is that I have played 4 singles games at home in the last 6 weeks. The conditions for play and the condition of the course e.g. Fairway firmness/dry and green speed/firmness has been the same. Yet during this period the rating has ranged from 69 to 72. Field size has been our usual 50-70.

Week 1: I had 38pts and felt I played well to get that but the rating was 69 so the system deems I didn't play well and was over hcp.
Week 2: I had 38pts again and felt I played good but not as good as the week before. Rating was 70 and system deems I played better than the week before. Still over hcp.
Week 3: I had 35pts and felt I was a long way off playing as good as the other two rounds. Rating was 70 again so deems it was a good round for someone playing in B grade.
Week 4: I have 37pts and I felt it wasn't that hard to get that many in the end. Was expecting to see another 69-70 rating but upon checking how many pts I get extra with the best flag round dropping out the DSR was 72 so only gained 0.1.

All rounds there was never anymore than a 1 club breeze from the same direction each week. The tee blocks were all off the blues with no more than 2-3m difference.

Im not p!ssed about, I just find it interesting and thought I'd share.

It has nothing to do with course or conditions per se, just the scoring range of the people who played it.

Course could be in the easiest, most advantageous setup and condition, but if everyone chops it, DSR will be high.

[Captain Nemo]

My golf only got better once I stopped caring about the handicapping system.
Agree mate, I just go out and play.
Most of the time I never check the event of the day!!!

[3Puttpete]

It's also based on historical results, not just those on the day.

[Captain Nemo]

I really think your overcomplicating things hatchy, reading too much into it...

[jimandr]

'Hatch, one of your main problems at Kapunda is the size of the fields. The DSR is affected by just a few good scores in a small field, while larger fields tend to deliver more meaningful results. It used to be the same under the old CCR system, too.

At Ballina, the DSR tends to be pretty similar most of the time, either 70 or 71 on Fridays (white tees) or 71 or 72 on blue tee days. The weather can occasionally push it out one shot, particularly if the greens are really quick.

But I don't care. I measure my success or (mostly) failure against the par of the course. In my book 37 points is always a good score, regardless of whether half the field has had 40 points or not.

Now if I could have a whinge about the slope system , please. I just don't understand how a course with water everywhere, like Sanctuary Cove Pines or Noosa Springs can be 126, while Byron Bay can be 138 and Bonville was somewhere in the 140's.

[Jazz18]

'Hatch, one of your main problems at Kapunda is the size of the fields. The DSR is affected by just a few good scores in a small field, while larger fields tend to deliver more meaningful results. It used to be the same under the old CCR system, too.

At Ballina, the DSR tends to be pretty similar most of the time, either 70 or 71 on Fridays (white tees) or 71 or 72 on blue tee days. The weather can occasionally push it out one shot, particularly if the greens are really quick.

But I don't care. I measure my success or (mostly) failure against the par of the course. In my book 37 points is always a good score, regardless of whether half the field has had 40 points or not.

Now if I could have a whinge about the slope system , please. I just don't understand how a course with water everywhere, like Sanctuary Cove Pines or Noosa Springs can be 126, while Byron Bay can be 138 and Bonville was somewhere in the 140's.

Slope rating isn't exactly a measure of the difficulty of the course though. That's what scratch rating is for isn't it? Slope is calculated on the difference between the scratch rating and the bogey rating of the course. In other words, it's a measure of how quickly the gross score of a golfer increases, as their ability decreases. At least, that's how I understand it.

[razaar]

'Hatch, one of your main problems at Kapunda is the size of the fields. The DSR is affected by just a few good scores in a small field, while larger fields tend to deliver more meaningful results. It used to be the same under the old CCR system, too.

At Ballina, the DSR tends to be pretty similar most of the time, either 70 or 71 on Fridays (white tees) or 71 or 72 on blue tee days. The weather can occasionally push it out one shot, particularly if the greens are really quick.

But I don't care. I measure my success or (mostly) failure against the par of the course. In my book 37 points is always a good score, regardless of whether half the field has had 40 points or not.

Now if I could have a whinge about the slope system , please. I just don't understand how a course with water everywhere, like Sanctuary Cove Pines or Noosa Springs can be 126, while Byron Bay can be 138 and Bonville was somewhere in the 140's.Distance differences is the reason. Obstacles factor quite low in the overall rating of a course.

[goughy]

Coming back to golf, I don't understand any of it one bit. And I'm thinking I'm happy that I don't. I just play off what ever is printed on my card and hope I can be within 20 shots of that!

[PerryGroves]

Hatch, the seasonal differences you have are quite common. The problem is the DSR is calculated against the entire field not your "peer" group. Small fields you will need to accept the referees decision but there is no reason (for bigger clubs) with the technology now that the DSR could not be graded. You will get less DSR variation in A grade.

I would also like to see handicaps revert to a measure of potential and present form. Your handicap would be your 8 as per the present system and your two best scores from the previous 2 years would stay with you. Your handicap would be then the gross, divided by 10*the multiplier (0.93?)

None of the above particularly worries me but if they want to have a look at the system I think a couple of changes would make it more equitable.

[WBennett]

Hatch, the seasonal differences you have are quite common. The problem is the DSR is calculated against the entire field not your "peer" group. Small fields you will need to accept the referees decision but there is no reason (for bigger clubs) with the technology now that the DSR could not be graded. You will get less DSR variation in A grade.

I would also like to see handicaps revert to a measure of potential and present form. Your handicap would be your 8 as per the present system and your two best scores from the previous 2 years would stay with you. Your handicap would be then the gross, divided by 10*the multiplier (0.93?)

None of the above particularly worries me but if they want to have a look at the system I think a couple of changes would make it more equitable.

The anti burglar condition? I like it.

[PerryGroves]

The anti burglar condition? I like it.

Spot on Captain. Congrats on the victory.

[Moe Norman]

I've never known, or cared about whatever the new system is.

But I shot -2 off the stick just before christmas and the stupid DSR cost me a played to +2 on my golf link.

Apart from that, I still have no interest.

[LeftyHoges]

Hatch, the seasonal differences you have are quite common. The problem is the DSR is calculated against the entire field not your "peer" group. Small fields you will need to accept the referees decision but there is no reason (for bigger clubs) with the technology now that the DSR could not be graded. You will get less DSR variation in A grade.

I would also like to see handicaps revert to a measure of potential and present form. Your handicap would be your 8 as per the present system and your two best scores from the previous 2 years would stay with you. Your handicap would be then the gross, divided by 10*the multiplier (0.93?)

None of the above particularly worries me but if they want to have a look at the system I think a couple of changes would make it more equitable.

A graded DSR, and an anti-burglar condition?

Where the **** were you 10 years ago when all this system was being set up?! Absolutely brilliant ideas.

[Johnny Canuck]

A graded DSR, and an anti-burglar condition?

Where the **** were you 10 years ago when all this system was being set up?! Absolutely brilliant ideas.

He had been kidnapped and was being held in an underground bunker in FNQ.

[LeftyHoges]

He had been kidnapped and was being held in an underground bunker in FNQ.

Much like.

[Hatchman]

Hatch, the seasonal differences you have are quite common. The problem is the DSR is calculated against the entire field not your "peer" group. Small fields you will need to accept the referees decision but there is no reason (for bigger clubs) with the technology now that the DSR could not be graded. You will get less DSR variation in A grade.

I would also like to see handicaps revert to a measure of potential and present form. Your handicap would be your 8 as per the present system and your two best scores from the previous 2 years would stay with you. Your handicap would be then the gross, divided by 10*the multiplier (0.93?)

None of the above particularly worries me but if they want to have a look at the system I think a couple of changes would make it more equitable.

Your right on with part of the imbalance with the DSR system being it's rated on everyone that plays and not against your peers/graded.
That becomes apparent when you play in state events where it's uncommon for someone to tear the course up by more than 3-4 better than the courses scratch rating and if they do they are usually stand alone and not amongst a small collection of players that did it.

I'm well aware of the historical calculation used but do think it's a bit silly and don't think it's really relevant.

I like your suggestion on the 2 best scores from the last year being counted for hcp purpose.

Some thoughts of my own for improving balance.
Have a sliding scale of best score(s) discounted from the DSR calculation (e.g. 0-50 drop 1, 51-100 drop 2, 101-150 drop 3 and so on).
Use the scratch rating as the main influence and only let a DSR move 1 stroke either side of that (e.g. if a DSR calculated worked out to be 3 lower than the scratch rating than it defaults to 1 lower).

[Sydney Hacker]

Your right on with part of the imbalance with the DSR system being it's rated on everyone that plays and not against your peers/graded. That becomes apparent when you play in state events where it's uncommon for someone to tear the course up by more than 3-4 better than the courses scratch rating and if they do they are usually stand alone and not amongst a small collection of players that did it. I like your suggestion on the 2 best scores from the last year being counted for hcp purpose. Some thoughts of my own thoughts: Have a sliding scale of best score(s) discounted from the DSR calculation (e.g. 0-50 drop 1, 51-100 drop 2, 101-150 drop 3 and so on). Use the scratch rating as the main influence and only let a DSR move 1 stroke either side of that (e.g. if a DSR calculated worked out to be 3 lower than the scratch rating than it defaults to 1 lower). Didn't the DSR come about because everyone whinged that the old CCR was gone in the new system?

[markTHEblake]

No but because they didn't understand it they used to whinge that the CCR made it to hard to play to their handicap.

That's totally fixed now.

[goughy]

The only thing making it hard to play to my handicap is my lack of ability!

[Hatchman]

The only thing making it hard to play to my handicap is my lack of ability!

It's a LOFT problem [emoji13]

[markTHEblake]

My home track is one of those courses that as a general rule sees a fair fluctuation in the DSR from winter to summer. We get no run/roll in the winter but come the dryer months and there's heaps of run for the shorter and low flight hitters.
To comply with GA handicapping rules your club should be setting the tees forward in winter and back in summer to compensate for that varied impact on the DSR



My home course is Par 73, ACR 72 and Slope 128.
In winter the DSR is mostly around 72-74.
In summer the DSR has regularly been 70.
golfers are like fishermen, and tend to exaggerate or embellish to make our point. I am sure than an inspection of the data wouldnt show that much variance on average.



Week 1: I had 38pts and felt I played well to get that but the rating was 69 so the system deems I didn't play well and was over hcp.

Looking at single rounds in isolation is the wrong way of going about it. Our handicap is based on averages. On any given day they might make the tees longer and the pins harder because its a stroke champtionship compared to next week it has easy pins and forward tees because its a stableford and the back tees need to recover.
Take your last 100 rounds, average them all out, and then show where/why the system is not working.

[Shadesy]

They should spend $20million and take another 3 years to get something which is the same as it was...

[Hatchman]

Had a look on my Golflink mates this morning and looked at yesterday's Ardrossan Open results and noticed the number of listed players was very small so looked in a bit more detail and noticed that it was only the A grade field players listed. They must have A & B listed as 2 different comps. The whole field that played shows up on every other comp I've played and can see through Mates.

This has me thinking would the system have a different DSR calculated for each grade if they've entered A & B grade as seperate comps?
I can't see the B grade side of things so I have no way to look at it.

[Rodent]

This should help all the people who play at courses over represented by burglars. My handicap would be 0.6 less had this come in a couple of months ago.
http://www.golf.org.au/site/_content/document/00034940-source.pdf

[Scifisicko]

MTB, can you point me at where this is suggested?
"To comply with GA handicapping rules your club should be setting the tees forward in winter and back in summer to compensate for that varied impact on the DSR"

[3Puttpete]

How?

[Grumpy8]

MTB, can you point me at where this is suggested?
"To comply with GA handicapping rules your club should be setting the tees forward in winter and back in summer to compensate for that varied impact on the DSR"

I am a member of two clubs both of them set the tees forward in summer and we have dsr's as low as 66, dsr's of 67 68 is common , two common excuses the old blokes complain if the course is too long (they get 2 shots on the long holes but they still want to reach in 2 ) and the tees need a rest .One club virtually has no a single figure golfers and low dsr's has a lot to do with it .

[3Puttpete]

I am a member of two clubs both of them set the tees forward in summer and we have dsr's as low as 66, dsr's of 67 68 is common , two common excuses the old blokes complain if the course is too long (they get 2 shots on the long holes but they still want to reach in 2 ) and the tees need a rest .One club virtually has no a single figure golfers and low dsr's has a lot to do with it .

Pars of these courses?

[Grumpy8]

Pars of these courses?
both 71

[3Puttpete]

both 71

And scratch ratings 69?

Maybe they're easy courses

[Grumpy8]

And scratch ratings 69?

Maybe they're easy courses
both are scratch 70 , and off the blues(where the slope is calculated) in winter they play as such . However in dry months off the front of the tees they are way easier for the higher markers who can stay out of trouble ,very few bunkers so 3 wood along the ground in summer reaches the green

[AndyP]

I reckon there are more sooks about burglars, than actual burglars.

[Daves]

Some changes effective Monday week;

http://www.golf.org.au/site/_content/document/00034940-source.pdf

I also saw a GA communication today about a new Local Rule regarding accidently moving your ball.

[3Puttpete]

both are scratch 70 , and off the blues(where the slope is calculated) in winter they play as such . However in dry months off the front of the tees they are way easier for the higher markers who can stay out of trouble ,very few bunkers so 3 wood along the ground in summer reaches the green

That GA document says the DSR low limit is 3 below the scratch rating.

How w does a course with a scratch rating of 70 have a DSR of 66?

[3Puttpete]

I also saw a GA communication today about a new Local Rule regarding accidently moving your ball.

On the green. Introduced 1 Jan

[Grumpy8]

I reckon there are more sooks about burglars, than actual burglars.I agree bandits to me are guys who deliberately keep there cap up and come in with a good score in the big events .I accept that high markers win in summer and low markers win in winter , that doesn't make them bandits My beef is with setting up a course that has a slope of 125 way forward and would be lucky to rate at 113 if it was actually rated .

[Progolfgear]

Some changes effective Monday week;

http://www.golf.org.au/site/_content/document/00034940-source.pdf

I also saw a GA communication today about a new Local Rule regarding accidently moving your ball.

That is nice to see, I am at a course where is is always at the lower limit on the dsr. It annoys the shit out of me that you can go out and shoot 3 under par just to play to 0.

[Grumpy8]

That GA document says the DSR low limit is 3 below the scratch rating. How w does a course with a scratch rating of 70 have a DSR of 66? Maybe the scratch rating is 69 at the course that has / had the 66 dsr The course I play mostly is currently carrying on about the low dsr's but they set the course up forward of the blues in every comp , except mm's winter or summer. They only have one slope rating for the blues .My logic is in summer plenty of run so 9 tees should be on the blues and 9 behind the blues in all comps so the slope isn't diluted by the run With this new measure I know my club is going to invoke the one shot less than scratch so our dsr will not go below 69 , which will mean that the old problems of fluctuating caps which dsr was to fix is going to happen again.I just have this feeling that courses that are having problems with dsr and slopes are not setting up logically to the slope rather than the rating guys making wholesale errors

[3Puttpete]

AFAIK tees can be moved so the total change in distance is within 100m of the rated distance. Two tees forward 20m and 1 back 10m is -30 overall.

In this context, tee colours are effectively a guide to distances, not literal colours

If your course is putting blue tee markers in white tee positions on every hole and not changing the rating, the problem is with the club, not GA's system.

[Grumpy8]

Exactly both courses I play have only one slope rating for the course the blue course , so I assume that's the blue plates , we rarely if ever play from the plates , we are always forward even in summer it is just a question of how much .
So if you don't set up close to where the course is rated from then it's your problem/ fault if the rating isn't working .

[Rodent]

I reckon there are more sooks about burglars, than actual burglars.
Imagine coming in with 50 points in the best ball and finding out you came 6th. Happened at my club today. 54pts won it. Best individual scratch score of 129 players was 7 over par!

[Lagerlover]

Jesus!!!

[AndyP]

Can I assume that I had fun during this round and was happy with how I played? What other people do during a round wouldn't bother me.

[3Puttpete]

Imagine coming in with 50 points in the best ball and finding out you came 6th. Happened at my club today. 54pts won it. Best individual scratch score of 129 players was 7 over par!

You had 50 and came 6th? Cripes!!!

[3Puttpete]

Exactly both courses I play have only one slope rating for the course the blue course , so I assume that's the blue plates , we rarely if ever play from the plates , we are always forward even in summer it is just a question of how much .
So if you don't set up close to where the course is rated from then it's your problem/ fault if the rating isn't working .

Write to GA

[Grumpy8]

Write to GANo thanks I raised it with the committee at one club and was told I was wrong. I don't play there much in summer anymore. Plus 12 won the individual comp couple Tuesdays ago there .

[3Puttpete]

No thanks I raised it with the committee at one club and was told I was wrong. I don't play there much in summer anymore. Plus 12 won the individual comp couple Tuesdays ago there .

Fair enough. I'm sure another whinge here in 3 months will fix whatever problems you imagine there are.

[Grumpy8]

Wasn't trying to have a whinge was just adding my experiences to the conversation about dsr's or so I thought.

[LarryLong]

I was a big fan of CCR.

Fortunate Son is an awesome song.

[Johnny Canuck]

I was a big fan of CCR.

Fortunate Son is an awesome song.

Worst joke ever.

I hope you're Proud, Mary.

[Dotty]

Wasn't trying to have a whinge was just adding my experiences to the conversation about dsr's or so I thought.
Similar here with a generally lower DSR for the past month. (Committee have allowed the greens to be left longer and/or watered more, due to predictions of hot days and increased traffic over holiday period.)

Not a problem, as fridges and hotplates in clubhouse still work.

[LarryLong]

Worst joke ever.

I hope you're Proud, Mary.

Some jokes work, some don't. I guess it's just the rub of the green, River.

[Jazz18]

Some changes effective Monday week;

http://www.golf.org.au/site/_content/document/00034940-source.pdf

I also saw a GA communication today about a new Local Rule regarding accidently moving your ball.

Was not a fan of the new system when it first came into effect a few years back. Could see lots of issues with it at that time. However, good to see that GA have at least as they put it, done a couple of "health checks" since it started and don't appear to be afraid to make changes to improve it.

[Rodent]

I thought the DSR was only allowed to go up to 4 shots above the Scratch Rating. In this round at NSW, the DSR is 79 and the Scratch Rating is 74.

44428

[3oneday]

Probably a 37th percentile multiplied by .065.

[Jazz18]

I thought the DSR was only allowed to go up to 4 shots above the Scratch Rating. In this round at NSW, the DSR is 79 and the Scratch Rating is 74.

44428

Was the upper limit more than 4 shots before the change on the 30th January 2017 perhaps? I can't remember. This round was obviously before that so might be allowed to be more.

[Rodent]

Was the upper limit more than 4 shots before the change on the 30th January 2017 perhaps? I can't remember. This round was obviously before that so might be allowed to be more.
No, the upper limit was 4 shots and has remained 4 shots.
http://www.golf.org.au/site/_content/document/00034940-source.pdf

[Rodent]

Yesterday at my club, the 12.5% score was 38 points. The CCR would have been 68 (par 70). Of course the DSR was 66! That means in a field of 51, only 3 people played to their handicap. 44pts, 41pts and 40pts.
It really shits me that I have to go to a "good" course to lower my handicap. I'll play the same but my "played to" will be much lower.

[3Puttpete]

Yesterday at my club, the 12.5% score was 38 points. The CCR would have been 68 (par 70). Of course the DSR was 66! That means in a field of 51, only 3 people played to their handicap. 44pts, 41pts and 40pts.
It really shits me that I have to go to a "good" course to lower my handicap. I'll play the same but my "played to" will be much lower.

Scratch rating?

[3oneday]

Says on golf.org that Hurstville has three ratings, maybe they used white which is 67?

[3Puttpete]

That'd explain it

[Rodent]

That'd explain it
No it wouldn't. ACR is 67. That means, it can rate between 66 and 71 depending on the difficulty of the conditions (as reflected by the scores). Calculating the DSR at 66 means that only 2 players out of 51 beat their handicap. That is 3.9% of the field. I thought that historically, around 9% of the field beats their handicap. If it had rated 68, that would equate to 5 people out of 51 beating their handicap 0r 9.8%. I'd have thought that would be more realistic. Even at a rating of 67, only 3 blokes out of 51 would have beaten their cap (5.9%).
This low DSR keeps handicaps high and keeps scores high. It is a loop.

[3oneday]

The course has three ratings, and the slope is low. That is all :)

[Sydney Hacker]

What were the 3 guys who beat their handicap off?

[Jazz18]

No, the upper limit was 4 shots and has remained 4 shots.
http://www.golf.org.au/site/_content/document/00034940-source.pdf

Ok cool, wasn't sure. That does seem strange.


Yesterday at my club, the 12.5% score was 38 points. The CCR would have been 68 (par 70). Of course the DSR was 66! That means in a field of 51, only 3 people played to their handicap. 44pts, 41pts and 40pts.
It really shits me that I have to go to a "good" course to lower my handicap. I'll play the same but my "played to" will be much lower.

I'm not a fan of DSR either but it's good that at least now it can't go less than 1 under the scratch rating. It's one of the things I look at then I'm looking at joining a club. If the scratch rating is low, I'm hesitant to join as I know it will piss me off to join somewhere, have 36 points only to walk off and see that the DSR is 3 or 4 below par. You're right Rodent, you can't drop you're handicap like that.

[Rodent]

What were the 3 guys who beat their handicap off?
44pts (12), 41pts (10), 40pts (22). The 3 lowest handicaps in the field had 28pts, 34 pts and 36 pts.

[Sydney Hacker]

Ok cool, wasn't sure. That does seem strange. I'm not a fan of DSR either but it's good that at least now it can't go less than 1 under the scratch rating. It's one of the things I look at then I'm looking at joining a club. If the scratch rating is low, I'm hesitant to join as I know it will piss me off to join somewhere, have 36 points only to walk off and see that the DSR is 3 or 4 below par. You're right Rodent, you can't drop you're handicap like that. I know it takes all types etc. but would you really not join a course that you like/enjoy playing just because of the scratch rating? Hard doesn't equal good!

[Scifisicko]

No it wouldn't. ACR is 67. That means, it can rate between 66 and 71 depending on the difficulty of the conditions (as reflected by the scores). Calculating the DSR at 66 means that only 2 players out of 51 beat their handicap. That is 3.9% of the field. I thought that historically, around 9% of the field beats their handicap. If it had rated 68, that would equate to 5 people out of 51 beating their handicap 0r 9.8%. I'd have thought that would be more realistic. Even at a rating of 67, only 3 blokes out of 51 would have beaten their cap (5.9%).
This low DSR keeps handicaps high and keeps scores high. It is a loop.

Sounds like your course ratings are wrong. Not sure where GA are at with the new course rating system. At one point they suspended the old system (using an algorithm and measurements) in recognition of the fact that it doesn't work, and were saying they were bringing in a new system based on comparing millions of scores in golflink across courses.

[Rodent]

Sounds like your course ratings are wrong. Not sure where GA are at with the new course rating system. At one point they suspended the old system (using an algorithm and measurements) in recognition of the fact that it doesn't work, and were saying they were bringing in a new system based on comparing millions of scores in golflink across courses.
I think it would be useful to see how our golfers go away from home compared to visitors to our course. I think our handicaps are inflated as our members tend to do very well away and it is rare that a decent player visits us and has a good score.
I think our course should have a higher scratch rating for sure. Not many pros go under par in our pro ams.

[Rodent]

I thought the DSR was only allowed to go up to 4 shots above the Scratch Rating. In this round at NSW, the DSR is 79 and the Scratch Rating is 74.

44428

Got the answer from Golflink. It seems very few people were aware of this:

A DSR will not be permitted to be more than four strokes above the relevant Scratch Rating or more
than one stroke below the relevant Scratch Rating.
Exception: For courses that are regularly exposed to severe weather conditions, Member
Associations are empowered to approve up to an additional two strokes allowance
above the relevant Scratch Rating. Once this approval has been given, it will apply at all
times unless it is withdrawn by the Member Association. There will not be any capacity
for discretionary day-to-day application of this Exception.

[coalesce]

No it wouldn't. ACR is 67. That means, it can rate between 66 and 71 depending on the difficulty of the conditions (as reflected by the scores). Calculating the DSR at 66 means that only 2 players out of 51 beat their handicap. That is 3.9% of the field. I thought that historically, around 9% of the field beats their handicap. If it had rated 68, that would equate to 5 people out of 51 beating their handicap 0r 9.8%. I'd have thought that would be more realistic. Even at a rating of 67, only 3 blokes out of 51 would have beaten their cap (5.9%).
This low DSR keeps handicaps high and keeps scores high. It is a loop.

Small statistical note - Just because historically 9% of the field beats their handicap, doesn't mean that on any given day that 9% will beat their handicap - so you shouldn't base your expectation of what the DSR should be on that

[Hatchman]

I think it would be useful to see how our golfers go away from home compared to visitors to our course. I think our handicaps are inflated as our members tend to do very well away and it is rare that a decent player visits us and has a good score.
I think our course should have a higher scratch rating for sure. Not many pros go under par in our pro ams.

Even without having played your course I'm with you on the above being relevant check measures if they have scratch ratings close or have missed the mark.

[Rodent]

Monthly Medal today. 21 A grade starters. Nett 68 was the best, then 69. Only 2 people broke 70 (par). DSR was 67! (ACR 68 ). Out of 115 starters across all grades, the old CCR would have been 69 (Top 12.5%).
So nobody in A grade played to their cap. What a joke.

[mrbluu]

Monthly Medal today. 21 A grade starters. Nett 68 was the best, then 69. Only 2 people broke 70 (par). DSR was 67! (ACR 68). Out of 150 starters across all grades, the old CCR would have been 69 (Top 12.5%).
So nobody in A grade played to their cap. What a joke.
Have u thought of changing courses??

[backintheswing]

Join Cabramatta. It's par 70, DSR 76. How else could peps be off 14?

[wazandnic]

Monthly Medal today. 21 A grade starters. Nett 68 was the best, then 69. Only 2 people broke 70 (par). DSR was 67! (ACR 68). Out of 150 starters across all grades, the old CCR would have been 69 (Top 12.5%).
So nobody in A grade played to their cap. What a joke.

A graders always struggle/d there unfortunately even before the new system.

[Jazz18]

Join Cabramatta. It's par 70, DSR 76. How else could peps be off 14?

Agreed. Cabra is brilliant that way. Played there a couple of weeks back, had 29 points and walked away with a flagged round thanks to a DSR of 74 for par 70.

[Jazz18]

Monthly Medal today. 21 A grade starters. Nett 68 was the best, then 69. Only 2 people broke 70 (par). DSR was 67! (ACR 68). Out of 150 starters across all grades, the old CCR would have been 69 (Top 12.5%).
So nobody in A grade played to their cap. What a joke.

I think DSR is calculated with the whole field in mind so C and D graders must have cleaned up today. Hard luck mate. That would piss me off too.

[Rodent]

I think DSR is calculated with the whole field in mind so C and D graders must have cleaned up today. Hard luck mate. That would piss me off too.
So a few bandits have a good score, so what. Out of 115 starters, the 13th best score was 69. The old system would have rated 69, the new 67. I know which one reflects the conditions better and it isn't the 67.

[Matt 3 Jab]

Having been on both sides of the DSR game, that being at a course which usually rates high, and one that rates low, the one thing is that harder courses (slope rating wise) are better for lower markers. Plain and simple. Easier courses are not as kind.

Theres no perfect system, but its the one we have. IF you want a low handicap, join a course with a high slope rating.

In the end, is there a reason you want to be off a very low handicap? Personal goal? OR play vardon events?? OR other reasons?

In the end its social golf, so if you are not happy with the course / conditions, id change course.

[Rodent]

Having been on both sides of the DSR game, that being at a course which usually rates high, and one that rates low, the one thing is that harder courses (slope rating wise) are better for lower markers. Plain and simple. Easier courses are not as kind.

Theres no perfect system, but its the one we have. IF you want a low handicap, join a course with a high slope rating.

In the end, is there a reason you want to be off a very low handicap? Personal goal? OR play vardon events?? OR other reasons?

In the end its social golf, so if you are not happy with the course / conditions, id change course.
That's a fair assessment. The thing is, if they got the system right, it wouldn't matter where you play. I believe that because the DSR is there to reflect how easy or difficult the course played on the day relative to its ACR, the system should be biased heavily in favour of how the lower markers scored. After all, the ACR is all about the difficulty for a scratch marker. The slope is about the difference in difficulty for choppers v scratch markers. Why doesn't the slope vary? Clearly if all the choppers have a day out and the better players struggle, the slope should be lowered and vice versa.
The fact that none of the 21 A graders could play to their handicap and yet the DSR rated the minimum it is allowed to is a joke.
Of course I can play other courses with friendly DSRs but it's not the point. The fact that we can all identify the courses that rate too low and the courses that rate too high shows that the system is inaccurate.

[Jazz18]

So a few bandits have a good score, so what. Out of 115 starters, the 13th best score was 69. The old system would have rated 69, the new 67. I know which one reflects the conditions better and it isn't the 67.

Yep, agreed. It sucks.

[Matt 3 Jab]

I think i remeber that its hurstville golf club. A quick check shows par 70, scratch 68 and slope 116.

Medal days are harder obviously, and not playing to handicap happens a lot.

Yes, 'choppers' get more shots so can often have higher scores and bring the overall rating down.

However, golf australia has said that all at your course should be having 38 points each round. So thats what you need to deal with. If it's fair or not, thats something for each member to decide.

If you decide that its not fair then another course may be the option. Overall, all across Australia, the system is what it is and some courses may fall outside the bell curve.

[Matt 3 Jab]

That's a fair assessment. The thing is, if they got the system right, it wouldn't matter where you play. I believe that because the DSR is there to reflect how easy or difficult the course played on the day relative to its ACR, the system should be biased heavily in favour of how the lower markers scored. After all, the ACR is all about the difficulty for a scratch marker. The slope is about the difference in difficulty for choppers v scratch markers. Why doesn't the slope vary? Clearly if all the choppers have a day out and the better players struggle, the slope should be lowered and vice versa.
The fact that none of the 21 A graders could play to their handicap and yet the DSR rated the minimum it is allowed to is a joke.
Of course I can play other courses with friendly DSRs but it's not the point. The fact that we can all identify the courses that rate too low and the courses that rate too high shows that the system is inaccurate.

forgot to ask as well what won the day?? And same tee's for all grades?

We have three sets of tee's on medal day and I'm not even sure if there are three DSR's or just one

EDIT: checked weekend scores and yes we have 3 x DSR's. Rated 77 for A graders off the tips!

[Rodent]

I think i remeber that its hurstville golf club. A quick check shows par 70, scratch 68 and slope 116.

Medal days are harder obviously, and not playing to handicap happens a lot.

Yes, 'choppers' get more shots so can often have higher scores and bring the overall rating down.

However, golf australia has said that all at your course should be having 38 points each round. So thats what you need to deal with. If it's fair or not, thats something for each member to decide.

If you decide that its not fair then another course may be the option. Overall, all across Australia, the system is what it is and some courses may fall outside the bell curve.
I can live with needing 38 points except for the days when it plays a little more difficult and you expect to only need 37 but it turns out you needed 39, like on Saturday.
You wrote, "Medal days are harder" and that's my gripe. The DSR was 67 which is the lowest it's allowed to go. The best gross score of 115 starters was 77! The best "played to" in the field was me and one other guy with 9.7
I'd love to see the DSR done on A grade scores. I don't think a 36 marker should impact the DSR.
For the record, my best 7 flags are at away courses. I've had to play away to stop my hcp blowing out too much. I've now only got 4 of my last 20 at home.

[Jazz18]

forgot to ask as well what won the day?? And same tee's for all grades?

We have three sets of tee's on medal day and I'm not even sure if there are three DSR's or just one

EDIT: checked weekend scores and yes we have 3 x DSR's. Rated 77 for A graders off the tips!

Never heard of a club doing this but seems like the logical way of doing things. I know Magenta plays hard but gotta love a DSR that goes that high! If you happen to play well that day, what a bonus.

[Rodent]

forgot to ask as well what won the day?? And same tee's for all grades?

We have three sets of tee's on medal day and I'm not even sure if there are three DSR's or just one

EDIT: checked weekend scores and yes we have 3 x DSR's. Rated 77 for A graders off the tips!
One tee for all. One DSR. 77 won scratch (I was beaten on cb). Nett 68 won A grade. Nett 64 won B grade and nett 64 won C grade.

[Matt 3 Jab]

I can live with needing 38 points except for the days when it plays a little more difficult and you expect to only need 37 but it turns out you needed 39, like on Saturday.
You wrote, "Medal days are harder" and that's my gripe. The DSR was 67 which is the lowest it's allowed to go. The best gross score of 115 starters was 77! The best "played to" in the field was me and one other guy with 9.7
I'd love to see the DSR done on A grade scores. I don't think a 36 marker should impact the DSR.

Even though its medal, its still a handicap event with 1 set of tee's (guessing here) so C or D graders DO count. Yes medal days are harder, and even more hard for A graders with less shots as one blow out hole can wreck a day. But its a whole field event.

Best gross score only events are Vardons with A graders only. I suggest you play as many of those as possible to get the handicap down.

It sucks, but just because the best score on the day is 77, doesn't meant the rating is wrong or unfair, its just a full field handicap event rating.

[Matt 3 Jab]

Never heard of a club doing this but seems like the logical way of doing things. I know Magenta plays hard but gotta love a DSR that goes that high! If you happen to play well that day, what a bonus.

A grade first place was a nett 77. Tough day out there by the sounds of it.

[Jazz18]

A grade first place was a nett 77. Tough day out there by the sounds of it.

Wow, that is a tuff day out of the office!

[Rodent]

Even though its medal, its still a handicap event with 1 set of tee's (guessing here) so C or D graders DO count. Yes medal days are harder, and even more hard for A graders with less shots as one blow out hole can wreck a day. But its a whole field event.

Best gross score only events are Vardons with A graders only. I suggest you play as many of those as possible to get the handicap down.

It sucks, but just because the best score on the day is 77, doesn't meant the rating is wrong or unfair, its just a full field handicap event rating.
I understand it's a full field event and that maybe the A graders just sucked that day BUT even taking the whole 115 starters into account, with a DSR of 67, that means only 8 people out of 115 played to or bettered their hcp. I can't cop that. That means 93.04% of players played over their hcp.

[Matt 3 Jab]

IF you could get that same data over 6/12 months then maybe you could take it to GA and ask why and see what you can do!

[Rodent]

IF you could get that same data over 6/12 months then maybe you could take it to GA and ask why and see what you can do!
I just checked last medal day. 103 starters, DSR 69 which meant 12/103 played to or better than their hcp. That seems more sensible. Winning score was nett 66.
The month before it rated 72 (the maximum) which meant 15 of 99 played to their hcp or better. Winning score was nett 67.

[Matt 3 Jab]

So may have been just a saturday where a few had the 64's and brought the DSR down.

[PeteyD]

forgot to ask as well what won the day?? And same tee's for all grades?

We have three sets of tee's on medal day and I'm not even sure if there are three DSR's or just one

EDIT: checked weekend scores and yes we have 3 x DSR's. Rated 77 for A graders off the tips!

Bit off topic, but this made me laugh.

At Redland Bay, they introduced Black tees for medal and black marker day. The members (the loud stupid ones) got too confused as to whether they had to play blue or black tees on a particular day, because it is so difficult .... I can just imagine the pain if different players went off different tees!