MOI Matching Club Fitting

[Daves]

OK, so I finally bite the bullet and have purchased an Auditor MOI Analyser (Speed Match System). I will look to set it up this week.

Does anyone have any experience with MOI fitting? I have read most of Wishon's stuff on the subject. Plus a bit of Dave Tutelman's findings/writings.

Given I have so many set of irons, I am figuring if I pick my favorite irons to hit out of my more preferred sets, then the MOIs are going to be similar. If that proves to be the case, I should be able to narrow it down from there to a number that is within reasonable tolerances. I then plan to 1) Attempt to build a set to match that MOI 2) rebuild a set that currently aren't working for me, and see if they feel any different.

Prior to this I have rebuilt some sets via back-weighting, using the progressive SW system that Wishon and Tutelman have described. Whilst back-weighting seems to work for me, it is a quick fix, and I am going to try to rebuild more thoroughly to avoid or minimise the amount of back weighting required.

[timah!]

You. Are. An. Über. Ho.

[Daves]

Thank you! Nice to be appreciated!;)

It seemed to be the natural next step in my Heavy and Hefty approach.

[markTHEblake]

I don't know much about it, but I have two sets of MOI irons. I could lend you my old ones if you wanna see how the master clubman made them up.

[Dotty]

That seems like a lot of effort just to win an internet argument by saying 'Yes, I have tested and measured every model'. ;)

Best wishes with the adventure and I look forward to seeing the results. So jealous.

[Captain Nemo]

Your in another league Dave, more power to you!
Wish I lived in Brisvegas I'd be over your place once a week...

[Daves]

I don't know much about it, but I have two sets of MOI irons. I could lend you my old ones if you wanna see how the master clubman made them up.

Thanks Blakey, might take you up at some stage.

[Daves]

For those that are not aware of MOI matching, a hopefully simple summary of MOI as I understand it.

MOI = Moment of Inertia and in club making is basically a measure of the club's resistance to twisting. The less twist, the more forgiving the club, and the more consistent the shots hit.

The idea is to find the MOI of your favorite clubs, the ones that you seem to hit best, and the most consistently. Or you can play around with a club adding weight etc to fine tune it's feel and results, and then measure its MOI

The idea is to then build the rest of the set to match that MOI. Swing Weighting was originally conceived as a proxy for MOI, but doesn't quite get the job done. Wishon and Tutelman have found that an approximate for MOI though is build a set with progressive SWs of 1.3 per inch of length .i.e the SWs gets heftier by 1.3 SW/inch as you reduce the length of each club. In a normal 1/2" progression set that is .6/.7 per club. One of the things that MOI club fitting embraces is a movement away from the rigidity of 1/2" progression build approach. 3/8" seems to be a common number, the slight diminishment of length reductions helping in getting the progression SW increases that equates to matching MOIs.

[benno_r]

I am keen to see the results of this Dave, though I might (if I may) clarify MOI a little for the guys who haven't been introduced to this.

MOI is a measure of the resistance to twisting, but in club building there are 2 measure of MOI:

1. Club head MOI - this is the one you mention that is a measurement of the head only, and it is a measure of the heads resistance to twisting. It is a great way to indicate head forgiveness.

2. Overall club MOI(which what your machine measures). This is a method to assemble clubs that gives consistent dynamic weighting across the set. Unlike swingweighting which is a static measure of club weight and balance, MOI is a measure that assesses the dynamic weight of the club around a pivot point (your hands or wrist). Basically it means your long irons are lighter and your short irons are heavier, with the intent to give the same dynamic feeling across the set.

Lecture over - if it works out Daves, I'd love to make the trek to your location to build a set that is MOI matched. Once you make a few sets, can you post up finished lengths and swingweight of each club when you are done?

Cheers,
Ben

[Daves]

Thanks for the clarification Benno, much appreciated. It was one of the reasons for my post, making sure I had my terms etc correct.

Yep, I intend to track all the data and post regular updates.

[benno_r]

Thanks for the clarification Benno, much appreciated. It was one of the reasons for my post, making sure I had my terms etc correct.

Yep, I intend to track all the data and post regular updates.

What I am really keen to see is SW progression once you are finished. It should be getting 0.6 to 0.7 SW pts heavier per iron, but with most irons being designed to be SW matched, achieving this is quite difficult.

[Daves]

What I am really keen to see is SW progression once you are finished. It should be getting 0.6 to 0.7 SW pts heavier per iron, but with most irons being designed to be SW matched, achieving this is quite difficult.

Yep, that is one of the things I am hoping to confirm. I have built sets to this SW progression, but via back-weighting, which doesn't work for every one.

The other data measurement that will hopefully be of interest is how the shaft frequency progression looks.

[benno_r]

Yep, that is one of the things I am hoping to confirm. I have built sets to this SW progression, but via back-weighting, which doesn't work for every one.

The other data measurement that will hopefully be of interest is how the shaft frequency progression looks.

Now you are getting into some really interesting areas - how weighting affects frequency etc.

One of things I am keen to see is if backweighting has as little affect on MOI as they say. Since MOI is calculated from the butt of the club, the radius for the back weight is going to be so small it should be negligible (in theory).

Exciting times for a golf nerd!

[markTHEblake]

And club head weight is 8gram progressions not 7

[Daves]

And club head weight is 8gram progressions not 7

I gather that was a theory pushed by Golfsmiths at one stage, 8gram and 1/2" progressions, or 7 gram and 3/8"progressions. But in reality few manufacturers actually make club heads in those progressions;

http://wishongolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=98504&sid=1cd007d3c61a8e5ecfdab58d68d7af8d

[markTHEblake]

But in reality few manufacturers actually make club heads in those progressions

thats true. All I can remember from Toze on the subject of headweights, is that he finds the heaviest head in the set, and then works back from there. Because you can make the other heads heavier but not the heavy ones lighter. To be honest I dont know if the end result is 8 gram increments or not. I imagine it is as simple as cutting the shafts to the precise length and then adjusting the headweights as necessary to match the MOI. He uses two machines to measure this, dont ask me what they are, or what they do :-)

Does any of the charts/formulas give you an idea of what the headweights should be?

[Daves]

thats true. All I can remember from Toze on the subject of headweights, is that he finds the heaviest head in the set, and then works back from there. Because you can make the other heads heavier but not the heavy ones lighter. To be honest I dont know if the end result is 8 gram increments or not. I imagine it is as simple as cutting the shafts to the precise length and then adjusting the headweights as necessary to match the MOI. He uses two machines to measure this, dont ask me what they are, or what they do :-)

Does any of the charts/formulas give you an idea of what the headweights should be?

I have loaded it yet, but there is software that comes with it that gives lengths, weights etc;

http://www.golfsmith.com/pdf/GCAnewsletter/The%20Basics%20of%20MOI%20Matching%20Your%20Golf%2 0Clubs-1.pdf

[Daves]

First hurdle hit! I went to set up the Analyser yesterday, and found GolfMechanix had sent me a US power adapter. Now awaiting their reply to my email!

In the interim I did find this quite comprehensive how to guide;

http://www.golfmechanix.com/src/updates/P070205ME.pdf

[Daves]

First hurdle hit! I went to set up the Analyser yesterday, and found GolfMechanix had sent me a US power adapter. Now awaiting their reply to my email!

In the interim I did find this quite comprehensive how to guide;

http://www.golfmechanix.com/src/updates/P070205ME.pdf

OK, power supply sorted. I have been playing around taking measurements to try an understand how club specs influence heft. And also to see how close the MOI is of clubs that I like the feel of. Establishing my ideal Iron MOI is going to be a bit of trail and error, I think. I will need to separate club forgiveness from ability to hit them out of the centre regularly. I will need to sort it on my 4i/5i striking, because higher loft clubs are much easier to centre.

Some interesting "observations" so far;

Shaft weight seems to be quite an influence on playability, shaft flex much less so
The lighter the club head, the higher the CPM
I have run some sets through the Matching software, the weight +/- are actually relatively small amounts
I have not found a guide yet on the influence of club length in the equation, in the case of a built clubs. The software does provide info on building a club from components, but I haven't got to that aspect yet.

Below are some measurements on a couple of comparable Drivers.



Driver
Shaft
Head/Shaft Weight (g)
Club Weight (g)
Length "
Swingweight
MOI (kg/cm2)
Club CPM, Grip on


Adams Super LS
PL Blue Reg
194/135
329
45.5
D3.3
2908
231


Adams Super LS (no HW)
PL Blue Reg
185/135
320
45.5
C9
2796
237


Adams Super S
PL Blue Reg
187/135
322
45.5
D0
2820
235





I used the Super LS last week and it performed very well. The Super S is GI version and has no weight ports. It comes standard at 46" which is too long, and I found that I was catching them out of the toe a lot with the standard long shaft. I am planning to use the Super S tomorrow with a shorter shaft, probably the PL Blue Reg above. Will be interesting to compare the Game Golf data after.

[benno_r]

Good info Dave.

Can you run an experiment for me though?

1. Back weight driver 1 (D3.3) to achieve SW of C9 (as per driver 2)
2. Remeasure MOI

I am interested in how much it is different considering overall weight will be way up, but SW will be down.

Be great test the theory of how adding a tonne of weight at the butt end "tricks the scales", and see how it affects MOI and perceived feel.

Cheers,
Ben

[Daves]

Good info Dave.

Can you run an experiment for me though?

1. Back weight driver 1 (D3.3) to achieve SW of C9 (as per driver 2)
2. Remeasure MOI

I am interested in how much it is different considering overall weight will be way up, but SW will be down.

Be great test the theory of how adding a tonne of weight at the butt end "tricks the scales", and see how it affects MOI and perceived feel.

Cheers,
Ben

OK, I had to add 20g to get the SW to C9. The butt weights I have don't quite fit this shaft, so I used lead tape and masking tape wrapped around the butt end of the grip. Club weight went up to 350 grams. MOI was basically unchanged at 2908.

[benno_r]

OK, I had to add 20g to get the SW to C9. The butt weights I have don't quite fit this shaft, so I used lead tape and masking tape wrapped around the butt end of the grip. Club weight went up to 350 grams. MOI was basically unchanged at 2908.

Thanks Dave, great outcome! I was hoping this would be the result.

[Scifisicko]

warning, this is pretty geeky. I should probably get a life. This took ages.

Purpose of the exercise was to work out how to shaft up a set of SPB Stiff

Recomendations from Dean and Benno_r based on what I currently game is that they might be too soft.

Hit 100 balls into the net in the backyard with 5 different shafts, ball was marked with a blue +, had flightscope (borrowed) measuring the usual parameters.
Impact point of all shots is recorded on the face. Clubs all same length lie and estimated within 1 swing weight.

Clubs in first photo from top down are:
mp32 c taper X
j36 CB c taper S HSx1
j36 MB SPB S HSx2
RazrX forged PX6.5

38191


Rotated the clubs after each hit and refreshed the mark on the ball with the sharpie.

Observations:
Hitting the ball generally 1-2 grooves too high and all over the face, especially the PX. C Taper X gave the tightest pattern and marginally better launch numbers than the other 3. Nothing really worth mentioning about the SPB HSx2, except feels slightly "tighter/harsher" than the C tapers (still good) and the PX. Spin numbers all a bit high, c taper x best of a bad lot for spin.

Pulled the SPB and replaced with stiff straight in. (Hooray for 5 minute araldite)

Photo 2 has the SPB stiff straight in at the top.

38192

Observations
Good impact pattern and marginally better numbers, couple of extra mph of ball speed, spin down by ~500 rpm to 6k, dispersion unchanged.

Seems best shaft for me is SPB Stiff followed by C Taper X. Pretty big difference. Im surprised.

Then grabbed the 7 iron and it felt nothing like the 6 iron. Even swinging at 80% everything was coming out of the toe.

38193

Thought of this post, grabbed my favourite club of all time (4 iron from previous set of mp60s) and hit alternate shots with this and the 7. You can see from the pics that the blue is almost completely covering the browning on the 4i.

38194 38195

Then added 15g of blue tack into the bottom of the CB on the 7 iron and the impact point moves back past the middle and towards the heel.

38196

Not 100% sure what this proves or what I should do next, but I am going to do this exercise on all my clubs and them get the MOI measured..or weight them so the MOI matches the 4 iron?

[Captain Nemo]

Christ, you have more patience than most on here to do that, well done!

[benno_r]

From what I can gather, you should measure the MOI of the 4i and match everything to that.

One school of thought is to increase SW by 1.4pts per inch of shaft length. 7i should be 1.5 inches longer, so maybe try the 7i setup with SW 2pts higher than the 4i. See if you can get similar results.

[Daves]

From what I can gather, you should measure the MOI of the 4i and match everything to that.

One school of thought is to increase SW by 1.4pts per inch of shaft length. 7i should be 1.5 inches longer, so maybe try the 7i setup with SW 2pts higher than the 4i. See if you can get similar results.

What Benno said. That 4i hit pattern look the goods.

[Scifisicko]

Thanks guys. Anyone in Vic have an MOI machine? I think I can do it with a sharpie but would like to validate after weighting all clubs so the sharpie marks are out of the middle.

If I find they are coming out of the heel, what do i do..add counter weight to the handle?? BTW i took 3 g of the blue tack off the 7i and the marks are now in the middle.

Why don't more people know about this?

[benno_r]

Thanks guys. Anyone in Vic have an MOI machine? I think I can do it with a sharpie but would like to validate after weighting all clubs so the sharpie marks are out of the middle.

If I find they are coming out of the heel, what do i do..add counter weight to the handle?? BTW i took 3 g of the blue tack off the 7i and the marks are now in the middle.

Why don't more people know about this?
Plenty do, but its a hard way to build when off the shelf is design for sw matching.

Keen to follow you results though, great posts!

[p4m]

Struggling to keep up but with Scifisciko's testing are you essentially saying weight can change the delivery location on the face? ie. having heel strikes if you moved some weight you could center it up?

[Daves]

Struggling to keep up but with Scifisciko's testing are you essentially saying weight can change the delivery location on the face? ie. having heel strikes if you moved some weight you could center it up?

More remove or add, than move. I find if a club is too hefty, I tend catch them out of the toe, too light, out of the heel. Shaft length also has an influence, particularly with Drivers. Too long (and heavy), out of the toe, and if too short/light, out of the heel.

Moving weight can also influence, but the impact tends to be more subtle. Well back will increase launch angle by moving CG. Toward toe or heel in driver can influence face closure.

[p4m]

wow thats really interesting

i tend to be pretty close to the heel but i might have a tendence to setup close to heel as well

i have Cobra bio cell irons swingweight is d2 4-9 then d3 / d4

Is this considered ligth

[Scifisicko]

Dave, 7,4 and 3 in this SPB set are all out of the toe. I have added weight to bring back to middle.(?)

[Daves]

wow thats really interesting

i tend to be pretty close to the heel but i might have a tendence to setup close to heel as well

i have Cobra bio cell irons swingweight is d2 4-9 then d3 / d4

Is this considered ligth






No, not light weight, D2 is the standard that most sets come from OEMs. I play mine heavier, D4 to about D7/8 going down the set. That suits my fast transition/tempo. If you have a smoother, slower tempo, lighter tends to suit better.

Stance/lie angle can also affect where you strike the ball, so a few factors to consider. Best way to find to out is to get some blue tac and a sharpie and head to the practice range and hit a few balls and see where the strikes, and whether the sharpie lines are straight in the face.

[Daves]

Dave, 7,4 and 3 in this SPB set are all out of the toe. I have added weight to bring back to middle.(?)

Interesting. I am off to golf now, but I will see what I can find on the subject tonight.

[Daves]

Dave, 7,4 and 3 in this SPB set are all out of the toe. I have added weight to bring back to middle.(?)


Interesting. I am off to golf now, but I will see what I can find on the subject tonight.

I have spent some time googling, try to find some articles on toe hits as a starting point. There was very little I could find to indicate how toe hits related to club builds, other than this Wishon forum thread that suggests it can be because the club is too short;

http://wishongolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13358&p=98977

Though this club building article suggests the opposite!;

http://www.clubmaker-online.com/assembly.instructions.html

But this doesn't seem to really relate to what we are discussing i.e. fine tuning SW to get centre hits.

There are plenty of articles that link toe or heel hits to swing characteristics/faults. and they are probably relevant to my particular case, but again are a little away from what we a trying to determine here;

http://www.golfwrx.com/301132/why-youre-hitting-shots-off-the-toe-and-heel-of-the-club/
http://www.golfwrx.com/63875/clark-how-to-stop-hitting-the-toe/

Wishon talks here about matching build to the player's swing characteristics;

http://www.golfwrx.com/166407/wishon-7-club-fitting-keys-to-improve-shot-consistency/

Still not quite on subject, but dances around the general area.

This thread, started by Wishon, seems closer to the mark;

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/712584-what-is-swingweight-why-is-it-important-how-do-i-find-the-right-swingweight/

As best as I can find so far, everyone is different and adding or subtracting weight won't necessarily give the same result. The suggested approach is to add weight till the shots centre (starting with a "light" club). Keep going till striking deteriorates. Then remove weight to take it back to the ideal weight. Play with the clubs and retest in week of so to fine tune/confirm the heft setting, as our swing can vary a bit by day.

[Scifisicko]

Thanks Dave, interesting reading. I played with the spb's today. Prefer the ctapers so they are probably only an moi experiment moving forward. Maybe I can send them to you for measuring when I get them right?

[wazamac]

WOW, very intersting reading up on this subject. Just a couple of questions.
(1) Let's say my favourite club to hit would be my 8i. Should all of the other clubs in my bag match the numbers generated by this club.
(2) If weight needs to come off how do you know where to take it? (club head, shaft length, grip)
(3) If weight needs to go on, how do you add to a certain point? Say 30" down the shaft 0.5g. Is it just a matter of putting a little bit of tape in the designated spot.

I am fairly new to club making and am very interested to gain more knowledge.

[Daves]

Thanks Dave, interesting reading. I played with the spb's today. Prefer the ctapers so they are probably only an moi experiment moving forward. Maybe I can send them to you for measuring when I get them right?

Not a problem.


WOW, very intersting reading up on this subject. Just a couple of questions.
(1) Let's say my favourite club to hit would be my 8i. Should all of the other clubs in my bag match the numbers generated by this club.
(2) If weight needs to come off how do you know where to take it? (club head, shaft length, grip)
(3) If weight needs to go on, how do you add to a certain point? Say 30" down the shaft 0.5g. Is it just a matter of putting a little bit of tape in the designated spot.

I am fairly new to club making and am very interested to gain more knowledge.

1) Yes, but the recommendation is to fine tune a 5/6i, as well, as we tend to hit our short irons much better than long irons.
2) The MOI matching software does provide some of these adjustment answers, but it depends whether you are building from scratch, or trying to adjust an existing built set. Hard to remove weight from a head, unless you have used lead tape on it to get it where it is. Changing the Grip makes little difference, and adding weight to the butt end makes no difference to MOI at all. shortening Shaft length is probably you best option.
3) Again, this gets factored into the software calculations and you nominate the positioning of the weight i.e. lead tape on sole or in cavity, or Tip Weights in tip of shaft, or even tape around the shaft. The software then tells you how much weight. This is where Blue Tac can be handy to do an initial fine tune, then confirm the MOI and replace with a more permanent solution, be it tape or weights. The weight needed isn't necessarily very much, from what I have seen so far. 3 to 5 grams or less seems to be common.

[wazamac]

Cheers, Thanks Daves.

[timah!]

Hmm, my old 5i with KBS tour was my fave club. This would be an interesting experiment for sure.

[Hutchy]

Good on you for taking this on Dave, such a in-depth subject. may have a thesis on this subject.

Golf doctor of hocus-pocus Fiddle-dee-dee ;)

[Daves]

My MOI Matching software has gone loopy, so waiting for Tech Support.

In the interim, one of my many recent arrivals includes a set of Adams CB3s with Matrix Ozik Program 8.1 S shafts. So I decided to do a rebuild,measure the changes, and report on the playability results in due. I will also make further fine tuning adjustments, to again measure the impact of changing length, and weight, and ultimately get them to my ideal MOI, once I know what it is! In that regard, on the measurements I have seen so far, I reckon it is somewhere around 2850 kg/cm2.

So here is my table on what I have done so far. Unfortunately I didn't think till too late to take before CPMs on the set, and only managed to get a few. But we should be able to see a pattern later, when I do further mods (length decreases). I will hopefully get a chance to gives these a hit tomorrow arvo, if this rain clears up.





CB3/Ozik Program 8.1 Rebuild










Iron Sets
5i
6i
7i
8i
9i
PW
GW


STARTING DATA










SW
D3.5
D4
D3.5
D3.7
D3.5
D3
D4


TW (g)
390
396
402
409
415
418
424


Increments (g)

6
6
7
6
3
6


MOI Kg/cm2
2709
2699
2665
2663
2638
2623
2639


Increments

-10
-34
-2
-25
-15
16


Length "
39.00
38.25
37.75
37.25
36.50
36.25
36.00


Increments "

-0.75
-0.50
-0.50
-0.75
-0.25
-0.25


CPM




304
306
307


Äfter Extending by 1"










SW
D7.5
D9.5
D9.3
E0.5
E1
E0
D9.3


Increase
4
5.5
5.8
6.8
7.5
7
5.3


TW (g)
402
409
415
423
430
430
436


Increments (g)

7
6
8
7
0
6


Increase (g)
12
13
13
14
15
12
12


MOI Kg/cm2
2887
2909
2898
2907
2905
2864
2842


Increments

22
-11
9
-2
-41
-22


Increase
178
210
233
244
267
241
203


Length "
40.00
39.50
39.13
38.63
38.00
37.50
37.25


Increments "

-0.50
-0.38
-0.50
-0.63
-0.50
-0.25


Increase
1.00
1.25
1.38
1.38
1.50
1.25
1.25


CPM
276
274
281
282
281
287
293


Decrease




23
19
14

[Daves]

Some analysis of the CB3 data;

1) Club Weight (TW) has gone up, on average 13 grams per club. 2 reasons; a heavier grip used (+6g); and the additional weight of the Graphite Extender (13g uncut). As both of these additions are at the butt end, I am presuming only nominal impact on the MOI.

2) The data shows there is a large impact on MOI movements by adding length. I have done some calculations in thee table below. The likely next step in this experiment will be to make the length adjustments calculated below, and do a data re-measurer;




CB3/Ozik Program 8.1 Rebuild










Iron Sets
5i
6i
7i
8i
9i
PW
GW
Average


STARTING DATA










MOI Kg/cm2
2709
2699
2665
2663
2638
2623
2639
2662


Äfter Extending by 1"










MOI Kg/cm2
2887
2909
2898
2907
2905
2864
2842
2887


Increase
178
210
233
244
267
241
203














MOI Change per 1" addition
178.00
168.00
169.45
177.45
178.00
192.80
162.40
175.16














Length +/- to achieve MOI










2850











MOI Change needed
37
59
48
57
55
14
-8



Length change needed - inches
-0.21
-0.34
-0.27
-0.33
-0.31
-0.08
0.05

[benno_r]

Dave, does it let you do it the other way by advice change in headweight to achieve required MOI adjustment?

Looking like an adjustable weighting system for iron heads would be very handy.

[Daves]

Dave, does it let you do it the other way by advice change in headweight to achieve required MOI adjustment?

Looking like an adjustable weighting system for iron heads would be very handy.

Yes it does, see a screenshot here;

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/ScreenHunter_22%20Nov.%2006%2008.33_zpskdtjf0gn.jp g (http://s603.photobucket.com/user/Daves_2009/media/Golf%20stuff/ScreenHunter_22%20Nov.%2006%2008.33_zpskdtjf0gn.jp g.html)

It doesn't do length adjustments though, except in a clean build from scratch, hence the calculation I have done.

[Scifisicko]

bloody long 5 iron!

[Daves]

bloody long 5 iron!

I usually play my clubs 1.5" over, so I would normally build the 5i to 39.5", but I thought that these being graphite shafts, I would start at +2" and see how they go. So far, so good.

[Daves]

I usually play my clubs 1.5" over, so I would normally build the 5i to 39.5", but I thought that these being graphite shafts, I would start at +2" and see how they go. So far, so good.

So far, bloody good! These club rocks!, even heavier and longer is working really well for me so far. I will give it some time to see if it is just the honeymoon period, but I am really liking this combination. The Programs launch really, really low when you want them to, but I seem to be able to hit them high if I need too as well! Best of both worlds! And so far most hits are coming out from somewhere near the middle of the face, feel good off the face, and distance is consistent. And I am getting good spin levels, where if I flight them up, they stop dead, and if I flight them low, they run out.

[Daves]

So an update on the CB3 MOI matching. The table I posted (see below) showed a tight range on the MOI for 5-9i, which are the only irons I normally use. I haven't hit the PW, GW as yet. The guide provided says that an MOI match that is within 1%, is as accurate as you need to go. A player apparently won't be able to notice a 1% difference.

My initial build was in fact within the 1% variance parameter for 5-9i. Nevertheless, to get a feel for the process, I have tinkered with some lead tape and got the match for 5 - PW to a max. variance of only 8 kg/cm2, or 0.25% max. If I drop the outlier, the max. var. is only 3 km/cm2. The guide says I won't notice these changes, but at least I know in my mind they are very tightly configured.

The irons are in the bag today for further evaluation. So far I am liking the similar feel through the bag. Whether I have matched to the right MOI (2912 in this case) is yet to be confirmed. But as a first pass assessment, I think to be somewhere in the ball park on the MOI, and have all irons matching does make a noticeable difference.

I need to get focused on the next build/rebuild, but I am finding it hard to move on from this set of irons at the moment.


Yes it does, see a screenshot here;

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf stuff/ScreenHunter_22 Nov. 06 08.33_zpskdtjf0gn.jpg (http://s603.photobucket.com/user/Daves_2009/media/Golf stuff/ScreenHunter_22 Nov. 06 08.33_zpskdtjf0gn.jpg.html)

It doesn't do length adjustments though, except in a clean build from scratch, hence the calculation I have done.

[Daves]

So the CB3 build has been declared a success. Time to try another set. I have revamped the I5s to match a similar number to the CB3. I used them today and hit 9 GIR in a row, so they aren't too bad! Still too early to call in reality, as the i5s were one of my preferred sets already, but you could really notice that all the irons felt very much the same to swing. I will give them some more course time, but my initial impression is very positive.

I have heaps of shaft sets (more on the way) and heads to build the "perfect" set, I just need to choose the combo and allocate some time!

[Icestorm959]

dibs on the Adams CB3s Matrix combo! :twisted:

[Daves]

dibs on the Adams CB3s Matrix combo! :twisted:

Didn't know you swing the other way C!?

[Icestorm959]

Didn't know you swing the other way C!?

Fail - memory blank. :(

I got over-excited at reading your excellent write-up!

[Hatchman]

dibs on the Adams CB3s Matrix combo! :twisted:


Didn't know you swing the other way C!?

Makes me laugh every time some one gets excited over Dave's golf club emporium and has to be reminded he's a south paw :lol:

[hacker]

Makes me cry every time I get excited over Dave's golf club emporium, only to remember he's a south paw.

[Daves]

I see that Bryson DeChampbeau plays a set 1 Irons.
http://www.1irongolf.com/index.htm

They should be MOI matched by their nature. I would love to try a set, but they will only sell you a fully built set, not single components.

[benno_r]

I see that Bryson DeChampbeau plays a set 1 Irons.
http://www.1irongolf.com/index.htm

They should be MOI matched by their nature. I would love to try a set, but they will only sell you a fully built set, not single components.

Dave, his irons are made by Edel. They would have the customisation ability to make the set. Scratch would have been another option, but unfortunately have shut up shop.

If you were a righty, you could have kept an eye out for these:
http://www.valuegolf.com/pinhawk-sl-single-length-irons

[coalesce]

The problem with both the 1irons and pinhawks is they are so fugly! And I'm not normally a club snob!

[Daves]

Dave, his irons are made by Edel. They would have the customisation ability to make the set. Scratch would have been another option, but unfortunately have shut up shop.

If you were a righty, you could have kept an eye out for these:
http://www.valuegolf.com/pinhawk-sl-single-length-irons

Edel eh, I had just assumed they were 1 Irons. I didn't realise anyone else was making single lengths.

[Daves]

OK, batting 2 for 2 so far with the CB3s and the i5 builds/rebuilds. Time to rebuild a set that hasn't set the world on fire so far. I have rebuilt the Cleveland 588TTs. These have the light 85g Traction steel shafts, that no one seems to like. They are very long clubs as standard (38.75" 5i), and now they are even longer. I initially built them to my old +1.5" build i.e. 39.5" 5i. The MOI scales told me that they needed to be longer, so now they are around another 1/2 to 3/4" longer, which got them pretty much to my MOI target. I only needed to use lead tape on a couple of clubs to fine tune. They will hopefully get a run tomorrow, weather permitting.

[benno_r]

Dibs Dave!

On the machine.

[Daves]

Dibs Dave!

On the machine.

Noted, but it ain't going anywhere!

The rebuild of the 588TTs has transformed them! They are now seriously good, the 4i is a weapon! My biggest issue has been clubbing them. They are strong lofts to start with, add the extra long shafts and I am hitting them pretty long.

[Lagerlover]

38683

[benno_r]

Noted, but it ain't going anywhere!

The rebuild of the 588TTs has transformed them! They are now seriously good, the 4i is a weapon! My biggest issue has been clubbing them. They are strong lofts to start with, add the extra long shafts and I am hitting them pretty long.

Your thoughts on the TT's Dave? What shaft you got in them, and do you think they would launch to high if they were weakened off 2 deg?

Cheers.

[Daves]

Your thoughts on the TT's Dave? What shaft you got in them, and do you think they would launch to high if they were weakened off 2 deg?

Cheers.

They have the Traction 85grammers in Reg in them. As to ball flight, it really depends on your swing. You tend to hit a bit higher than average from memory. I can hit both high and low with slight set up changes, but tend to hit a bit lower flight these days. I would suggest that perhaps a better way to tackle it would be to strengthen the lofts and convert your set by 1 club difference ie. 5 becomes 4i etc.

[Daves]

I have rebuilt another set this morning.This time it is my all times favorites, the Cobra S3 Pro Combos. I shouldn't have been surprise I guess, but was at how close to my MOI target the set was already. Only 2 clubs were more than 1% away, the rest very closely clustered, so the rebuild was pretty straight forward.

[backintheswing]

Dave, can you talk us through, in depth, what you are actually doing in the rebuild please?

[Daves]

Dave, can you talk us through, in depth, what you are actually doing in the rebuild please?

Rebuilds have been pretty straight forward Ash. I first do a measure of Swingweight, Total Weight, Length and MOI of existing clubs. Though MOI is my focus, the other data is helpful, as it helps me build up a picture of how MOI changes with changes in the dimensions. I have a target MOI for my irons, being 2912 Kg/m2. From that I can determine how much I need to increase or decrease the MOI to reach target. I try to get the final spread within + or - 0.5%, which gives me a max. 1% spread across the set. Wishon says a player won't be able to detect a 1% variance.

As a first step I then add or subtract club length, as this is the biggest impact on MOI. I either shorten the shaft ( haven't needed to very often so far), or add length with either a butt cap, or a short extension, depending on how much is needed. This only applies to clubs where I need to move the MOI by more than 1%. 1" rough equates to about 3/4% or 150/160 kg/m2 MOI variance. 1 gram equals about 10/12 kg/m2

I then do a remeasure of data to determine what fine tuning I need to do. This is then done with lead tape, where needed. Then a final confirmation measure check and clean.

[Ferrins]

I played with a guy who shot 2 under and all his irons were different makes models and brands. Is this the other end of the scale?😀

[Daves]

I rebuilt another fav set this evening. These are the TM TP CBs, and again they were already mostly very tight on MOI. But they were also a couple of % higher MOI that the target I have been building to. I decided to rebuild to a higher target as a test, 2990 instead of 2912, or 2.7% higher. My theory is that matching the set is as important to an extent, as building to the target MOI. Given this set was already a preferred set with a higher MOI, that seems a reasonable conclusion at this stage.

[Ferrins]

$10 says your moi matched set won't be getting the last birdie on Friday

[Ferrins]

Like This
TomWishon's PhotoTomWishon
16 Apr 2015
View PostT.Beau, on 16 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:
well it is about both as i stated

to summarize:
-i think the term 'MOI matching' is confusing to the consumer for the reasons i stated
-i think the usefulness is not very significant for the reasons i stated

Let me try to help a little if you would please because I have the most experience in this area from having created the methodology for measuring the MOI of assembled clubs and doing the research to educate clubmakers on the aspect of building sets so all clubs in the set have the same MOI to potentially help improve shot consistency.

First off, let me make it clear that this project was just one of many areas related to the technical performance of golf clubs that I have done over my whole career to share what I learn with whoever is interested. I/we have no vested interest in MOI matching of clubs vs swingweight matching. I had simply gotten to the point in my work that I understood that swingweight matching was based on an arbitrary measurement and scale set up and did not really have any scientific basis for its function in a golf club - while MOI matching most certainly did/does have a valid correlation to swing feel and the effort a golfer uses to swing each club in a set.

I was by no means the first to realize this. But no one had really done the work to teach clubmakers what the differences could be, nor had anyone done the work to create the equipment or the methodology to even try to do MOI matching of clubs in a set. So it was just another of many fascinating technical projects that I wanted to get into for information sake, and to offer clubmakers the way to do this if they wanted to.

There is no question that tons of golfers have hit tons of good shots and played many good rounds of golf with swingweight matched clubs. And equally, getting fit for the right lengths, lofts, lies, face angles, shafts, total weights, grips, head model, set makeup is super important beyond MOI matching. But getting a golfer into the right headweight feel and overall weight feel in his clubs is of supreme importance for achieving maximum shot consistency, and MOI matching does have the scientific basis to say that it just might be a little better for some golfers than swingweight matching. That's all.

And since a bunch of clubmakers have been doing MOI matching in their fitting work since we first came out with the info and means to allow them to try it starting back in 2003, by now there is a pretty strong amount of actual experience to say that it probably is a little better than swingweight matching for most golfers.

Anyway all that aside and to your two points. . . .

Yes, no question that with the industry having marketed on behalf of CLUBHEAD MOI for so many years, there most certainly can be some confusion about the MOI of the head vs the MOI of the whole club. But as it stands now, the only place you can have your clubs MOI Matched is through independent custom clubmakers. And those who have learned how to do it will most certainly explain to each golfer what it is, how it works, and why it could be better than swingweight matching. So in that sense, there is a solution to the potential confusion. Also, for discussions on forums like this, there now are several regular posters who understand it and can explain it.

Your statement here also could lead to bring up a question - if MOI matching is so good, why haven't the big companies done it? I have direct experience in that as well and am happy to share what I know. Several years ago one of the big OEM companies' head of R&D called me to inquire about MOI matching. he was interested in knowing more to determine if his company should think about doing it. They assigned one of their engineers to the research, we provided them with the equipment and information and left them to their work. Understand please that I/we were not going to be involved in any way commercially should they decide to do this. We simply were providing information and the equipment to do it for their research. Were they to do it, they would have bought the equipment from the same company I contracted to do the equipment and we would not make any money. So they were simply picking my brain about it as a start to their research.

Some time later I had a chance to talk to the engineer who did the research. He told me that they saw benefit over swingweight matching from their work. BUt he also said they realized completely there were two obstacles to their incorporating it that they felt were too difficult to overcome. One was the fact that they realized that in making their clubs to one standard swingweight, were they to use MOI matching, they would have to choose one single standard MOI to build all their clubs to. And since MOI matching is a custom fitting thing in the sense that not all golfers would benefit from the same MOI, that led them into the second reason for not choosing to do it.

Which was the bigger problem in their minds - to re educate millions of golfers that their clubs would no longer all have the same swingweight if they were MOI matched. With swingweight scales in 90% of all places clubs are sold, they could see a real nightmare of PR when an unknowing golfer put his clubs on a swingweight scale and saw they were all different in swingweight measurement. All they could see was TONS of phone calls and complaints about "the swingweights are all over the place so the quality of my clubs is bad."

Hence I doubt you will see a major OEM ever switch from swingweight to MOI matching.

As to your belief that MOI matching is of no real value, about all I can say is that after 12 yrs of clubmakers building thousands of MOI matched sets (not millions) it's hardly ever that a golfer goes back to ask for the clubs to be re weighted to be swingweight matched. There is a clubmaker in England who has been doing MOI Matching on every set of custom clubs he has built and sold since he first starting doing it in 2004. He's a very precise and thorough clubmaker who keeps detailed records of every golfer he fits and every club he makes. This clubmaker has said that out of more than 600 sets of clubs that he has built with MOI matching, only one golfer has come back to ask for the clubs to be swingweight matched.

But all that aside, each golfer has to make his own decision based on his own personal experience because that's the only thing that matters. So in that sense, you can try a simple little test that is completely non invasive to your clubs to at least get a sense of the difference in MOI vs swingweight matching. You can use lead tape on your iron heads to create a progressive swingweight through the set from long to short irons. Making the swingweight of each iron to be 0.5 swingweight points higher than the iron just below it. So if you started with your 4 iron and let;s say it is D1, leave it D1, Then the 5iron is to be D1.5, the 6 to be D2. the 7 to be D2.5 and so on down through to the PW and gap wedge.

This won't be a perfect MOI match, and it may not be the exact right MOI for you and your swing characteristics, but it will give you a starting point as to how it is different and whether there could be some merit in it for you. In the end, if swingweight matching is preferable for you, great. But all we are talking about here is a continued effort to keep digging into club fitting performance technology to try to find different, better ways to do things to help golfers gain some benefit and enjoy the game a little more.

It's not like anyone is trying to sell anything here to "dupe" anyone into MOI matching just to make money - this is just a different way to match the weight feel/swing effort of clubs to each other in a set which has some solid scientific basis behind it to potentially help improve shot consistency a little bit
Reply

[Ferrins]

A similar thing to above for the tennis industry was the introduction of string like Luxilon Big Banger which required people to restring at 10% less. This was very difficult to implement and the reeducation in my experience took over a decade with about 50% of consumers coming on board. For example 26 years ago I was playing synthetic gut at 72-76lbs and my son at same age now plays RPM Blast at 48-52lbs.

[Daves]

$10 says your moi matched set won't be getting the last birdie on Friday

You mean my MOI matched set vs you bag full of Hybrids?;) you are on spaceman!

[Lagerlover]

Not surprised he's using the RPM Blast at 48-52 be honest.

[Ferrins]

You mean my MOI matched set vs you bag full of Hybrids?;) you are on spaceman!
I use reshafted ladies irons thank you very much.😁

[Daves]

I won't requote the Wishon post (# 72) that Ferrins posted as it is too big, but it does summarise the essence of MOI matching for me. It is only one part of the fitting process, I think Heavy and Hefty was a bigger step for me. But you do notice the difference in how the clubs feel, and they do feel to me to be the same to swing. Previously, in most sets I had a favorite iron, now they are all equal.

Establishing your target MOI is the biggest issue in my mind, I think it is still a work in progress for me. And I am not sure if I will ever get to absolute finality on it. Basically because most/all golfers vary day to day, and those differences will be enough to affect your swing slightly. Even the pros vary, though their variance are mostly very slight in comparison to us hackers.

Because the traditional iron set is stepped in length, our swings have to vary slightly for each club. Hand position changes, posture changes etc , and perhaps ball position changes as well ,depending on your method. MOI matching is one way to minimise the differences in feel that occur with club length changes.

[Daves]

I rebuilt another fav set this evening. These are the TM TP CBs, and again they were already mostly very tight on MOI. But they were also a couple of % higher MOI that the target I have been building to. I decided to rebuild to a higher target as a test, 2990 instead of 2912, or 2.7% higher. My theory is that matching the set is as important to an extent, as building to the target MOI. Given this set was already a preferred set with a higher MOI, that seems a reasonable conclusion at this stage.

I had a lesson and played a dozen holes afterward today with these irons. They will get a comp run on Wednesday, hopefully. I think I have found my upper limit on MOI heft. These irons are heavy and I reckon I might struggle a little with them over closing holes on hard days. However, they were working pretty well and I was finding the middle most of the time. The main changes I made were in the shorter irons, and they were producing pretty solid hits all day. I used 7i mostly during the lesson, and distance was very consistent for most shots, with the odd one really motoring when I got the swing right.

[jimandr]

I hope I'm not opening two separate cans of worms with this post, but if I do, it is all your fault, Daves.

I found the original sticker and plastic from my Adams A3 boxer hybrid in the boot of my car today, and immediately thought of this thread. Why? Because, the sticker, along with its marketing boast of more distance and accuracy, also stated it was high MOI 3350.

Reading back through this thread, I notice that your desired MOI is 2915ish. I also noticed from the Wishon post that he stated MOI was a very personal thing which I took to mean that for some players high MOI is good, but for others it isn't.

So, the questions in my mind are firstly, what are the characteristics of high MOI v lower MOI as it relates to performance of the club, and secondly, is MOI of hybrids a different beast to MOI of irons?

[Daves]

That is a different MOI measurement Jim. It is referring to the head only and its resistance to twisting. The MOI matching I am using is measuring the MOI of the entire club, and basically the effort required to swing it. Think Pendulum.

[Daves]

A bit of an update.

I have settled on a target MOI (2912) for my irons, as the sets I have matched to it so far are working really well. The TM TP CBS I did at 2990 are OK, but a tad heavy. I will persevere with them for another hit, but will likely adjust them back to 2912 in due course. I have been busy with other things, so haven't yet converted a lot of sets, but I am getting the odd set done when I get time. So far I have matched;

Adams CB3 5- GW
Cleveland 588TT 3-PW
Ping i5s 3-PW
Ping G10s 3-PW
Tourstage X Blades 701 3-PW
Cobra S3 Pro Combo 3-PW
TM TP CBs 4-PW

The fact that I can hit the long irons, particularly the 3 irons well, is a strong indicator for me that I am on the right track.

I have written mostly about irons so far, but have done a bit of research and measuring with Woods and Wedges. Wishon suggests that Wood MOIs will generally be higher than your irons, but for me the opposite is true. Because I run my irons so high, woods don't work at that heft. From what I can work out, a typical standard mens iron set is probably around 2600 to 2750 MOI. I am running mine 10%+ higher than that max, so very hefty in comparison.

I haven't settled on a Woods MOI so far, but it is probably in the region of 2750/2850, which is somewhere near where most standard drivers sit out of the factory. There does seem to be a lightweight sub category, that come up at the low end of the range, but still works for me. And going heavier on these seems to unbalance the clubs somewhat.

Wishon says wedges will generally be a lower MOI, and this seems to be the case. Mine, even 1.5" over length, are still relatively light on the MOI heft meter, 2750/2800 or thereabouts.

[Daves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmVTF5PcLfc

http://wishongolf.com/designs/sets/sterling-irons-single-length-set/

No mention of LH versions unfortunately.

[Daves]

I am still getting what I consider to be very positive results with the irons sets that I have MOI matched. My ball striking has improved noticeably, my consistency is way higher, and my HCP continues to fall. I probably should play a set of unmatched irons to do a reality check, but it is not a tempting option I have to say. But I will do it shortly.

I am still playing around with what my optimum Driver MOI is. It is certainly lower than my iron target MOI, but there seems to noticeable variances between lightweight style drivers and the more conventionally weighted models. Make the LWs too hefty and my ball striking goes south. I do seem to have become more sensitive to slight variances, and fine tuning length and heft does transform a Driver I have found. Even more so than shaft variances, which to me are more about feel and dispersion.

I have the iron MOI matching process pretty templated now, and seem to be able to do it totally around club length. I haven't had to use lead tape since the first couple of sets. An Angle Grinder with cut off disc is all I need!

The data I collect has thrown up some interesting outcomes and observations. Firstly, it seems to me that building to a Swingweight target only works if you use fixed length increments e.g. 1/2". Mix it up and the SW target becomes somewhat misleading. Secondly, I am hitting the ball noticeably further. This could partly be explained by the clubs being on average longer, though we are only talking small increments, as most of the irons sets I have matched were already 1 to 1 & 1/2" over standard. I am putting it down to better ball striking, more confidence in the clubs, and shafts now working better in a (for me) more balanced club.

[Hatchman]

I am still getting what I consider to be very positive results with the irons sets that I have MOI matched. My ball striking has improved noticeably, my consistency is way higher, and my HCP continues to fall. I probably should play a set of unmatched irons to do a reality check, but it is not a tempting option I have to say. But I will do it shortly.

I am still playing around with what my optimum Driver MOI is. It is certainly lower than my iron target MOI, but there seems to noticeable variances between lightweight style drivers and the more conventionally weighted models. Make the LWs too hefty and my ball striking goes south. I do seem to have become more sensitive to slight variances, and fine tuning length and heft does transform a Driver I have found. Even more so than shaft variances, which to me are more about feel and dispersion.

I have the iron MOI matching process pretty templated now, and seem to be able to do it totally around club length. I haven't had to use lead tape since the first couple of sets. An Angle Grinder with cut off disc is all I need!

The data I collect has thrown up some interesting outcomes and observations. Firstly, it seems to me that building to a Swingweight target only works if you use fixed length increments e.g. 1/2". Mix it up and the SW target becomes somewhat misleading. Secondly, I am hitting the ball noticeably further. This could partly be explained by the clubs being on average longer, though we are only talking small increments, as most of the irons sets I have matched were already 1 to 1 & 1/2" over standard. I am putting it down to better ball striking, more confidence in the clubs, and shafts now working better in a (for me) more balanced club.

Thanks for all these updates Daves, I for one find it very interesting reading partly because I'm a a relative newbie to club building and the other because I'm I believer in the heft side side as it works for me. Wish I was up your way so I could see you go through the process of changing a set of irons to your MOI target.

It would be nice to get the machine(s) to do the same one day. I just need to stop spending money buying clubs or come across a lot more money to do both 🤔

Keep the update and progress reports coming.

[Daves]

I am still getting what I consider to be very positive results with the irons sets that I have MOI matched. My ball striking has improved noticeably, my consistency is way higher, and my HCP continues to fall. I probably should play a set of unmatched irons to do a reality check, but it is not a tempting option I have to say. But I will do it shortly.



I had intended to do this with my bag selection tomorrow, 710CBs which I hadn't yet MOI matched. I thought they would be a good comparison to the matched 714 CBs I played last round. But a check on their MOIs showed that I had done too good of a job when I originally built them, the long irons were spot on, and the rest only needed some minor lengthening to be on target. It does explain why I find these irons very easy to hit, and quite forgiving.

I do have another set of these CBs with different shafts (105Ts). They may have to be comparison clubs if they check out as not being well matched.

[Coopers Country]

Thanks for all these updates Daves, I for one find it very interesting reading partly because I'm a a relative newbie to club building and the other because I'm I believer in the heft side side as it works for me. Wish I was up your way so I could see you go through the process of changing a set of irons to your MOI target.

It would be nice to get the machine(s) to do the same one day. I just need to stop spending money buying clubs or come across a lot more money to do both 樂

Keep the update and progress reports coming.

Wish you would Hatch need someone in SA to be able , and I am sure there is , but I mean in OZ Golf

Sounds very interesting

[Daves]

I continue to convert my iron sets at opportunity. Ever set has improved in terms of my ball striking, some more than others. I used to miss the centre fairly often and by a fair margin at times. Toe hits weren't uncommon. My strike contact has tightening up noticeably, and my results are showing this. Today I converted my MP53/59 combo set. These are one of my favorite iron sets and I have made some of my better scores with them. When I checked them, they were pretty much already matched. I could have basically left them as they were, there was a less than 2% variance between the outliers. I did fine tune 3 of the 6, just to tighten the tolerances. I am looking forward to hitting them this week.

I have decided to match my Hybrids to my Iron MOI target, given they need an iron swing. So far this seems to be working.

[Daves]

I converted another set this morning, the Ping i20s. I had built these to MOI using SW advancement i.e. 1.3 SWs per inch. This was before I bought the Analyser, and I hadn't actually got around to checking them. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they were pretty much within tolerances, and not that far away from my MOI target. In the end I left the 4 - 7 unchanged and tweaked 8,9 & W. This set ended up just over 2" over standard length (for these 37.75" 5i), and D3 through to D7 SW (with about 20grams average back weighting).

I took the MP53/59s for a hit this afternoon. I was hitting them well, but they seemed to be very spinny, particularly the 9 iron. I will check them tomorrow, but suspect it is the shafts? (XP S300s)

[benno_r]

Question I have been meaning to ask about all this Dave, but extending the irons to meet an MOI target - are you redoing the lies to suit as you do this?

[Daves]

Question I have been meaning to ask about all this Dave, but extending the irons to meet an MOI target - are you redoing the lies to suit as you do this?

It isn't something I haven't given much priority to so far Benno. But I do intend to do some lie checks at opportunity, just to see how my striking is actually looking. I don't seem to be greatly sensitive to lie changes for some reason.

[Daves]

Time for an update.

I have continued to build/rebuild my iron sets to MOI matching. I am now also building my Hybrids to the same MOI target and that seems to have been positive for my striking with them.

I really haven't found a common MOI number for my Drivers, but I don't see that as an issue as the Driver swing is different and I don't really need them matched to any other clubs.

I am just starting to play around with FW MOIs. Again, I don't really need to match them to anything, but I have been using it to try and match the feel of favorite clubs and it does seem to help.

I did build a few sets via progressive swingweighting and back weighting, prior to get the MOI Analyzer. Generally when I have subsequently checked them, I have found them to be relatively close on MOI match, with 1 or 2%, though not necessarily a match to my target MOI. Having said that, I now know that my MOI match target almost always coincides with a club length of somewhere between 1.5" & 2" over standard, so that would help get your builds closer.

I have been tempted to leave some of these sets unaltered. But I am now mixing clubs a bit (mainly 3i & 4i with 5 - PW sets) and being MOI matched to the one target will help with any set blending I do in the future. For example, I have now MOI matched my set of Nike VR Pro Combos, one of my favorite sets. And I now have a set of the VR Blades from the same series, and today I am going to match my set of VR Reds from the same series. So that will give me lots of set blending options (all three sets are 3 - PW). I can do the same with my Titty sets (AP1, AP2, CBs and MBs), Adams (MB2, XTD Forged, A12s, CB3s, A4, V4, Super S, XTDs). Ditto my TM, Cobra and Ping sets. I can now also match/blend Hybrids for most of these as well.

[Hatchman]

Does the position of your hands on the grip in relation to the butt end have any influence on how the MOI target will perform?
For example. If you grip all the way to the butt end then extend them an inch to get your MOI number and then grip the new length 1 inc short of the butt end (same position) will they difference still be noticed/work?
Hope that makes sense?

[Daves]

Does the position of your hands on the grip in relation to the butt end have any influence on how the MOI target will perform?
For example. If you grip all the way to the butt end then extend them an inch to get your MOI number and then grip the new length 1 inc short of the butt end (same position) will they difference still be noticed/work?
Hope that makes sense?

Will they work? yes, as plenty of non MOI matched clubs have worked for players for years.

However, to address what I think is your question, gripping down creates a dynamic MOI that is less than the built MOI. But why you would establish a target?, build to that target and then regularly grip down and override the build?

Of course gripping down is a valid method for distance control. We see Pros gripping down regularly, sometimes quite significantly. Lydia Ko is one, though she seems to grip down significantly on almost all clubs.

For me, MOI matching is less about the actual target, and more about matching the clubs across the bag. Don't get me wrong, effort on establishing the proper target is well worthwhile imo. In my case, it saw me take the Hefty and Heavy concept even further than I ever thought was reasonable. But I find the greatest benefit is in the clubs feeling the same. And because I change the clubs in my bag every comp round, changing to other clubs, that are MOI matched to the same target, makes the transition very easy, I find. And it seems to override most shaft variables. I seem to be able to move from light to heavy, steel to graphite, Reg to even X flex with fairly minimal effort.

[Captain Nemo]

Just been on the Golf Doctors website, seems he's right into MOI....

[Captain Nemo]

I don't know if Bryson DeChambeau's clubs are MOI but interesting that he's gone to Cobra, have they made them that way, or single length?

[Captain Nemo]

Found it, don't know if they are MOI, where they before???
http://www.golfdigest.com/story/dechambeau-goes-pro-with-cobra-puma-clubs-apparel

[Daves]

I don't know if Bryson DeChambeau's clubs are MOI but interesting that he's gone to Cobra, have they made them that way, or single length?

Same head weights and same shaft lengths should mean they are MOI matched, all other variables being equal (which I think they are).

As I understand it, Cobra have made single length clubs for him.

[Daves]

A Wishon Slideshow on MOI Matching, I don't think I have posted it previously.

http://www.wishongolf.com/downloads/MOI101.pdf

I have so far matched 40+sets of irons, and numerous Woods, Hybrids and Wedges.

[markTHEblake]

A Wishon Slideshow on MOI Matching, I don't think I have posted it previously.
Thanks, it was interesting. Having watched Toze do two sets of irons for me, I kind of knew all that but had mostly forgotten, except for the 3/8" part.
Honestly I don't know if its made a difference to my game, but certainly I didn't end up with irons that were harder to hit.


I have so far matched 40+sets of irons, and numerous Woods, Hybrids and Wedges.
Toze says he doesnt do MOI on woods- or maybe he said he doesn't match the woods to the irons.

[Daves]

Thanks, it was interesting. Having watched Toze do two sets of irons for me, I kind of knew all that but had mostly forgotten, except for the 3/8" part.
Honestly I don't know if its made a difference to my game, but certainly I didn't end up with irons that were harder to hit.


Toze says he doesnt do MOI on woods- or maybe he said he doesn't match the woods to the irons.

It has definitely made them easier to hit for me, especially the longer clubs. It also makes switching between sets very easy, pretty much irrespective of shaft, grips etc. It also enables me to match the Hybrids to Irons.

I have read the theory that says woods are/can be different, as are Wedges. For me, about the same (MOI) seems to work. I think that is partly because hefty also works for me (due I believe to my fast tempo/quick transition).

Most of the clubs I rebuild end up up in the Es on a SW measure. "Standard clubs", on average, are about 10% to 12* lower (lighter) MOIs than my target MOI. So increasing heft in itself tends to work for me. Where MOI matching helps for me with Woods, particularly Drivers, is I am able to work out when a club is too heavy. That can happen if the shaft is too long for the Head Weight involved. And again the biggest benefit is being able to switch between Drivers/Woods that feel similar to swing.

[dee cee]

Good stuff Daves. Keep at it.

[markTHEblake]

It has definitely made them easier to hit for
me, especially the longer clubs. It also makes switching between sets very easy, pretty much irrespective of shaft, grips etc.
I am pretty sure that's actually the whole idea. So its good that is what you have experienced what I have only 'read in the brochure'


I converted another set this morning, the Ping i20s. I had built these to MOI using SW advancement i.e. 1.3 SWs per inch. This was before I bought the Analyser, and I hadn't actually got around to checking them. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they were pretty much within tolerances, and not that far away from my MOI target.


How was the Ping head weights, exactly on 7 gram increments?
(i assume ping head weights are unpublished)

[Daves]

How was the Ping head weights, exactly on 7 gram increments?
(i assume ping head weights are unpublished)

I can't say for sure because I don't seem to still have the data from the original build. But my MOI build data tells me that the club weight progression was pretty much spot on 7 grams per step. The shafts are R400s, so constant weight shafts.

[markTHEblake]

I might have mention this in another thread recently, but I got a new friend who knows a little bit about Pings production, and we were talking about the head weights, He said that all the irons now have plastic inserts, and they are made with varying weights. So once the head is finished,they add the exact plastic weight insert needed to get the head precisely to spec.

[backintheswing]

Yeah it's called a CTP, custom tuning port, and has been around for a while.

[3Puttpete]

I might have mention this in another thread recently, but I got a new friend who knows a little bit about Pings production, and we were talking about the head weights, He said that all the irons now have plastic inserts, and they are made with varying weights. So once the head is finished,they add the exact plastic weight insert needed to get the head precisely to spec.


Yeah it's called a CTP, custom tuning port, and has been around for a while.

Is that the decal in the cavity?

[Daves]

Some more grist.....

I recently MOI matched a set of 716 AP2 irons with TT DG AWT (Ascending Weight) shafts. When I measured their starting specs, the SW were pretty much spot on at D3 through the set (1/4" overs), and the MOI spread were pretty closely grouped. Much closer than I normally find for a conventionally SW constructed set. The 3 gram progression was close to getting the set to MOI matching. There was less than a 2% spread from high (4i) to low (PW). I aim to have well less than a 1% variance when I build, but 1% is considered OK. If the AWTs were 4 to 5 gram progressions I reckon they would be pretty much spot on. It meant that I extended each club by very similar amounts to get my MOI target matches.

[Forecaddie]

anyone in Sydney with MOI machine?