Over the top

[Jazz18]

Got a pretty consistent pull draw going on at the moment and it's ruining my game. I'm pretty sure I'm coming over the top but I can't seem to shake it. Making good contact (hitting the centre of the face) I just can't get the face pointing in the right direction. Anyone got any good drills that help get rid of an over the top move? Cheers

[Scifisicko]

Put an inch of sand in an empty gatorade bottle and put it 18 inches behind the ball on an extension of the target line. Hit the ball and miss the bottle. You will stop coming over the top after 2 or 3 swings.

[mrbluu]

Another drill is put a box at the toe of your club so its parallel to the target line. It will give u a different visual to not come over the top.

[razaar]

It may not be what you think it is. The most common fault for pull hooks for a better player is the trail shoulder rotating internally during the downswing. Internal rotation should occur at impact in a functional swing. The shoulder rotates internally when the hands are moving faster than the trail elbow. Like everything in the golf swing every movement leads to another movement. Get one movement wrong requires a correction to get everything back on track. If the elbows separate or drift apart then there has to be an effort to speed up the trail elbow to keep it ahead of the hands until just before impact. In a functional swing where the pelvis and spine works correctly this elbow element works automatically.

[3oneday]

Asking a golf forum should help, to make things worse :)


You're probably flipping.

[PeteyD]

Buy a new driver.

[Jazz18]

Put an inch of sand in an empty gatorade bottle and put it 18 inches behind the ball on an extension of the target line. Hit the ball and miss the bottle. You will stop coming over the top after 2 or 3 swings.


Another drill is put a box at the toe of your club so its parallel to the target line. It will give u a different visual to not come over the top.

Thanks fellas I will try these.


Asking a golf forum should help, to make things worse :)


You're probably flipping.

You're right. I didn't think of that. I''ll work on that too.

[Jazz18]

It may not be what you think it is. The most common fault for pull hooks for a better player is the trail shoulder rotating internally during the downswing. Internal rotation should occur at impact in a functional swing. The shoulder rotates internally when the hands are moving faster than the trail elbow. Like everything in the golf swing every movement leads to another movement. Get one movement wrong requires a correction to get everything back on track. If the elbows separate or drift apart then there has to be an effort to speed up the trail elbow to keep it ahead of the hands until just before impact. In a functional swing where the pelvis and spine works correctly this elbow element works automatically.

Thanks razaar, I just wish I understood what you were talking about. A couple of your other tips have made a lot of sense to me but this one has gone straight over my head I'm afraid.

[Jazz18]

Buy a new driver.

Haha! Surprisingly it's not driver, it's mostly irons and wedges. Good call, but don't want to sack them just yet though.

[mrbluu]

Haha! Surprisingly it's not driver, it's mostly irons and wedges. Good call, but don't want to sack them just yet though.
Sounds like u need to putter some new putters then

[razaar]

Thanks razaar, I just wish I understood what you were talking about. A couple of your other tips have made a lot of sense to me but this one has gone straight over my head I'm afraid.I described a flip release which is caused by the right shoulder. Funny that you understand a flip but not how it occurs.

[Scifisicko]

Just reread this, how bad is it? The bottle thing is a cure for OTT not necessarily a pull draw. You can easily pull draw swinging from the inside. According to trackman and D Plane, the direction the ball starts on is almost entirely due to club face angle at impact and it spins due to the relationship of path to club face....so...if your club face is 1* closed and your path is 2* from the inside it will start left and draw slightly. 3* Closed and 5 degrees from the inside and you have a classic ""starts left and goes further left". If face is 2 degrees closed and your path is 1 degree from the inside it will start left and fade slghtly. As soon as you start delivering the club from the outside, the face has to be very closed (more closed than the path) to have hook spin.

[razaar]

A square clubface at impact on a path square to the plane line can result in a pull hook. That is why the above drills won't work with premature internal rotation of the trail shoulder during the downswing. The trail shoulder has to be externally rotated until impact.

[Scifisicko]

Interesting...whats the plane line? If the plane line is parallel to the target line at impact and the club face is square to the target line how can it do anything other than go straight?

[razaar]

Interesting...whats the plane line? If the plane line is parallel to the target line at impact and the club face is square to the target line how can it do anything other than go straight?The plane line is the ball target line. Trackman's logarithmic system is based on the D-Plane, which in turn only caters for a stable clubface through the impact zone. A flip release has the clubface very unstable through impact where the toe may be moving several mph faster than the heel or vice versa. A clubface rotating in this fashion through impact will impart hook spin by its contact compression towards the outside of the ball. Does that make sense.

[Scifisicko]

Nope, the premise of the question was that the path and face are square at impact. impact is over in 1/10,000 of a second. There is no time to do anything to effect the spin while the ball is on the club face - no matter what you are doing with your hands. It is a misnomer that you can create spin by rotating your hands while the ball is on the club face, the ball is long gone.

[Batty]

~

[razaar]

Nope, the premise of the question was that the path and face are square at impact. impact is over in 1/10,000 of a second. There is no time to do anything to effect the spin while the ball is on the club face - no matter what you are doing with your hands. It is a misnomer that you can create spin by rotating your hands while the ball is on the club face, the ball is long gone.Think dynamic not static. Do some research and let me know what u come up with. It may surprise u. Always do the research on all my posts about the swing because I only mention the bare bones of the topic, that's if u are interested.

[Scifisicko]

OK Ray, i appreciate everything you have to say and always think about how you break stuff down. Trackman says ball is in contact with the club face for just over half an inch of club head travel and that rotation during this time is not enough to cause any significant effect on the spin axis. By the time you are about to make impact with the ball, everything is done and dusted. I am happy to read anything you send my way, in return here is something for you... http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

[razaar]

This was written in 2012 and is based on high speed camera recordings of actual contact, not computer output based on theories.

http://kelvinmiyahira.com/articles/articles-2/2012-articles/81-2012-11-the-flight-of-the-bumble-bee-and-flying-golf-balls

[Scifisicko]

Thanks Ray, thought provoking but we are splitting hairs, even if the toe is travelling 10 mph faster than the heel over 0.7 inches it has travelled 0.04 inches further than the heel, Assuming the face is 2 inches long, the change in angle relative to the path as it travels through those 0.7 inches is less than 1*. Furthermore trackman says that the main influence of face angle on spin axis occurs at the moment of maximum compression, so this is even less than the total time in contact. Anyway, assuming the difference in speed of toe to heel is that extreme, its still not enough to create a pull hook from an otherwise square plane and square path at impact.

Edit, measured a driver face at 4 inches long and did it on a calc... actual amount of closure during impact would be 0.65*

[JADO75]

Out to in swing with a closed club face, like Scifi said, hit more on the inside

[razaar]

Thanks Ray, thought provoking but we are splitting hairs, even if the toe is travelling 10 mph faster than the heel over 0.7 inches it has travelled 0.04 inches further than the heel, Assuming the face is 2 inches long, the change in angle relative to the path as it travels through those 0.7 inches is less than 1*. Furthermore trackman says that the main influence of face angle on spin axis occurs at the moment of maximum compression, so this is even less than the total time in contact. Anyway, assuming the difference in speed of toe to heel is that extreme, its still not enough to create a pull hook from an otherwise square plane and square path at impact.Trackman has a vested nterest in its product. It's all good fun to look at things different to how the market wants us to think.

[Jazz18]

I've got some research and a lot of practice to do. I understand the face to path stuff here but need to understand what rotating my trailing shoulder internally means. Thanks for all the replies thus far. I'm going to try a couple of the drills as well as I think they will help correct my club path.

[razaar]

Internal means the upper arm is rotated in towards the body. External is upper arm is rotated away from the body. Supination and pronation are associated with forearm rotation.

[3oneday]

Thank christ my thread only got goat humping.

[Scifisicko]

Jazz, Im very familiar with pull hook, do it with my driver by coming from the inside with a closed face, do it with wedges where it is more a pull from an out to in move with a face square to the plane. One thing that is really easy and helped with the wedges was to bend them flat. Went from hitting wedge 10-20 feet left to very straight overnight. Worth trying (?) and easy to bend back if doesnt work. Get that gatorade bottle out you will know in one shot whats happening. Move the bottle a bit closer to the ball for a wedge, particularly if you are steep. If you can fix it great, if its ingrained in your swing, bend an old wedge and try it.

[Scifisicko]

Trackman has a vested nterest in its product. It's all good fun to look at things different to how the market wants us to think.

Yeah good point, but there still isnt much doubt in my mind about the new ball flight laws, from high speed photography as much as Trackman. I read that flightscope took a 40,000 fps camera to the PGA show and used it alongside the monitor to show almost identical results with driver and 7 iron...anyway the ball being on the face for a poofteenth of a second and for about half an inch of club head travel is from high speed film. The little bit of trig i did above shows that the club face angle barely changes during impact. Nothing to do with monitors! There seems to be a much bigger effect on spin axis from off centre hits and hits on the ball that are a dimple or two off the centre of the ball than from the rate of face closure during impact. One thing that haunts me is video of a golf ball bouncing on a totally flat machined surface in an effective vacuum. A round ball bounces up and down on a micro dot and comes to rest on it. Because of the dimples, a golf ball bounces all over the place. How are we supposed to putt?

[JADO75]

I've got some research and a lot of practice to do. I understand the face to path stuff here but need to understand what rotating my trailing shoulder internally means. Thanks for all the replies thus far. I'm going to try a couple of the drills as well as I think they will help correct my club path.

No you don't, you'll confuse the crap out of yourself when there's no need to

[Stuartd147]

I suffer from the same problem with this being my "bad hit", I can see what Raz is saying and I swing in-to-out. One thing I do when it creeps in to my game is to pick my target for alignment and then imagine hitting (I am right handed) "out" to a target 5-10m to the right (like a green side bunker). This makes me stay more inside with my right side through impact and generally get a soft draw with a more solid strike.

I think my problem stems from aligning "closed" initially and it is my address that needs more working on.

...Stu

[mrbluu]

I suffer from the same problem with this being my "bad hit", I can see what Raz is saying and I swing in-to-out. One thing I do when it creeps in to my game is to pick my target for alignment and then imagine hitting (I am right handed) "out" to a target 5-10m to the right (like a green side bunker). This makes me stay more inside with my right side through impact and generally get a soft draw with a more solid strike.

I think my problem stems from aligning "closed" initially and it is my address that needs more working on.

...Stu
Does this work with snooker cues too??

[Stuartd147]

Does this work with snooker cues too??

Hope So!!

[razaar]

Yeah good point, but there still isnt much doubt in my mind about the new ball flight laws, from high speed photography as much as Trackman. I read that flightscope took a 40,000 fps camera to the PGA show and used it alongside the monitor to show almost identical results with driver and 7 iron...anyway the ball being on the face for a poofteenth of a second and for about half an inch of club head travel is from high speed film. The little bit of trig i did above shows that the club face angle barely changes during impact. Nothing to do with monitors! There seems to be a much bigger effect on spin axis from off centre hits and hits on the ball that are a dimple or two off the centre of the ball than from the rate of face closure during impact. One thing that haunts me is video of a golf ball bouncing on a totally flat machined surface in an effective vacuum. A round ball bounces up and down on a micro dot and comes to rest on it. Because of the dimples, a golf ball bounces all over the place. How are we supposed to putt?The Phantom is well over 100,000 frames per second. It has proven the science that the ball slides up the face which creates spin, to be incorrect. The ball is compressed on the face which distorts the cover and then rebounds off the face. The spin is the result of the distortion and recovery of the ball's cover.

[Daves]

I suffer from the same problem with this being my "bad hit", I can see what Raz is saying and I swing in-to-out. One thing I do when it creeps in to my game is to pick my target for alignment and then imagine hitting (I am right handed) "out" to a target 5-10m to the right (like a green side bunker). This makes me stay more inside with my right side through impact and generally get a soft draw with a more solid strike.

I think my problem stems from aligning "closed" initially and it is my address that needs more working on.

...Stu

x 2, my bad shot is also the pull with draw/hook. And alignment is usually the issue.

[Hatchman]

I suffer from the same problem with this being my "bad hit", I can see what Raz is saying and I swing in-to-out. One thing I do when it creeps in to my game is to pick my target for alignment and then imagine hitting (I am right handed) "out" to a target 5-10m to the right (like a green side bunker). This makes me stay more inside with my right side through impact and generally get a soft draw with a more solid strike.

I think my problem stems from aligning "closed" initially and it is my address that needs more working on.

...Stu

That's good stuff there Stu.
I can relate to all of what's above.

[Jazz18]

I suffer from the same problem with this being my "bad hit", I can see what Raz is saying and I swing in-to-out. One thing I do when it creeps in to my game is to pick my target for alignment and then imagine hitting (I am right handed) "out" to a target 5-10m to the right (like a green side bunker). This makes me stay more inside with my right side through impact and generally get a soft draw with a more solid strike.

I think my problem stems from aligning "closed" initially and it is my address that needs more working on.

...Stu

Thanks Stu. This swing thought of yours will help me I think.

[Jazz18]

Jazz, Im very familiar with pull hook, do it with my driver by coming from the inside with a closed face, do it with wedges where it is more a pull from an out to in move with a face square to the plane. One thing that is really easy and helped with the wedges was to bend them flat. Went from hitting wedge 10-20 feet left to very straight overnight. Worth trying (?) and easy to bend back if doesnt work. Get that gatorade bottle out you will know in one shot whats happening. Move the bottle a bit closer to the ball for a wedge, particularly if you are steep. If you can fix it great, if its ingrained in your swing, bend an old wedge and try it.

Thanks SF. I'm going to try and fix my swing fault first but I have thought about bending all my irons flat. Of all else fails, this will be the next thing I try.

[wizard_of_oz]

Jazz, Im very familiar with pull hook, do it with my driver by coming from the inside with a closed face, do it with wedges where it is more a pull from an out to in move with a face square to the plane. One thing that is really easy and helped with the wedges was to bend them flat. Went from hitting wedge 10-20 feet left to very straight overnight. Worth trying (?) and easy to bend back if doesnt work. Get that gatorade bottle out you will know in one shot whats happening. Move the bottle a bit closer to the ball for a wedge, particularly if you are steep. If you can fix it great, if its ingrained in your swing, bend an old wedge and try it.

How many degrees flat did you bend them?

[Scifisicko]

4*, but to get a vertical sharpie line on the ball to transfer vertical to my club face I need to be 2 flat to start with.

[Scifisicko]

The Phantom is well over 100,000 frames per second. It has proven the science that the ball slides up the face which creates spin, to be incorrect. The ball is compressed on the face which distorts the cover and then rebounds off the face. The spin is the result of the distortion and recovery of the ball's cover.

And by the same logic it cant slide sideways along a "closing" face either.

[razaar]

Sci, the clubface is closing during the downswing in all swings. The question is how and when. How do you understand the term "the slot" which Hogan gave to the downswing.

[Scifisicko]

Ray, the points we have discussed that are relevant to this thread are:

- The direction the ball starts on is mainly where the face is pointing at the moment of impact.
- Any sideways influence on the spin axis is due to the centre of gravity of the club head moving in a different direction to the centre of the face at the moment of impact.
- The spin on the ball cannot be manipulated by the faster closure rate while the face is in contact with the ball

The fact that a flipper closes the face a fraction of a degree while it is in contact with the ball doesnt have any significant impact on the direction or spin axis, proven by monitors and high speed film.

Should we continue this in the Hogan thread on Golf WRX? I think there are about 3000 pages on "the slot".

[razaar]

Sci, the slot is the anti over the top movements during the downswing that gives the golfer the best chance of an on target strike. I would have thought it was very relevant to this thread. Only geeks like us are interested enough to research the science behind ball flight, something that seems to keep changing with technological advances in cameras etc.
The people reading threads like this are only interested in what they have to do to make good swings and good results.
So what is your understanding of the slot movements?

[Scifisicko]

Ray, Hogan talked about his arms getting a free ride (just gravity) in the early downswing, Some describe this as dropping the club in the slot, my understanding is it is the movement at and just after the transition, although his arms/hands dropped passively/vertically for longer than this. I think of it as the transition from the left arm plane to the right arm plane. If it is close a vertical drop you can only get to the ball on plane or from the inside.

[razaar]

Sci, good description. To add to that, the slot move is not goat humping or any body movements that flex or shorten the spine. Nor is it the body bracing to allow the player to have the arms as the motive power source.

The slot movements are powered by the spine engine. The movements have the trail shoulder drop vertically towards the trail hip through the right side compressing, creating a right lateral bend of the spine which retracts the shoulder blade and increases the coil of the mid right side. This move creates space for the right elbow to move before the hands start to drop from their position at the top. This creates an inside slot for the hands straight down through their address position. The only thing the player has to do is keep the trail elbow close to the target elbow and supinate the target forearm and externally rotate the upper arm. The other key is to maintain a fixed sternum throughout.
The legs and spine engine power the swing while the arms and wrist control the clubface. The target upper arm rotates internally while the forearm works in the opposite direction; the trail upper arm rotates externally while its forearm works in the opposite direction.
Get this right combined with the correct lower body and spine engine movements and you will be a ball striker.
The spine engine movements are quite complicated for me to describe here. They are movements which work the extensors against flexors. Understanding how it works is not enough to incorporate these movements into a golf swing. That requires the player to build up the myofacia in the pelvis and glutes before it will function properly. It took me three months of 2 hr exercises every day, before I owned it. But then again I am old.

[Scifisicko]

Ray, thats amazing detail. Do you think about that stuff during a swing?

Im with you in the first paragraph but I get lost on the forearm rotation stuff (i have no idea how my arms should be rotating), and my analysis of my swing tends to be limited to getting in the right positions. I can imagine that for the right person this would be the prefect way to fix a swing fault.

[razaar]

I had to when learning it. The ele!ents I described are the easy movements to learn because most of it is how the body should work. An example is how the sections of the arms work naturally when we apply a rotating force. If there is some bend on the joint the sections on either side of the joint will rotate opposite to each other.

The difficult elements for me were those relating to the spine engine. I had some help with this from Cam Smith who nagged me about working the glutes. Eventually I worked it out by myself and went about designing specific exercises that work the spine engine for both a right handed swing and a lefty swing. That is to balance the myofacia on both sides and identify the movements so as not to mix them up. It's all good fun.

[Jazz18]

Wow you guys really go into the detail. I'm normally this way inclined for most things but for some reason with my golf swing, a feeling or a movement makes more sense to me with a drill rather than the description of the movement. I did understand what you were saying Ray about the slot movement and the right side compressing with the right shoulder moving down I think (for a right handed golfer) and that's definately a feeling I have been trying to incorporate back into my swing. When I do that properly, I don't seem to pull hook it as much or as often. Thank you for all your input guys. While I might not have followed all the detail, I have definately taken some parts of it away and will be able to apply it to my swing to straighten me out I think.

[razaar]

Jazz, it is important to keep the hips and the rib cage turning through and well beyond impact. If they slow down or stop at impact, referred to as a stall, the tendency will be to slow down the left arm with the right overtaking the left through impact. Another common method to flip it left. The left hand needs to stay ahead of the right through impact and control the clubface as well. As it is usually the weaker of the two, it needs to find a braced position through impact and assistance from the left side to pull it through ahead of the more powerful right hand. The braced position is a flexing downwards of the wrist from thumb to pinky. The opposite flex of the left wrist at the top of the back swing. The right wrist flex retains some of its backwards flex as well as this downwards flex through impact.

[perci]

I read a good article / interview from David Leadbetter quite a few year ago and he was explaining to a Journalist that the Club Face has to be slightly open at impact so it is square at separation as the Ball stays on the face for a millisecond or so , kind of makes sense when you think about it!

[Jazz18]

Jazz, it is important to keep the hips and the rib cage turning through and well beyond impact. If they slow down or stop at impact, referred to as a stall, the tendency will be to slow down the left arm with the right overtaking the left through impact. Another common method to flip it left. The left hand needs to stay ahead of the right through impact and control the clubface as well. As it is usually the weaker of the two, it needs to find a braced position through impact and assistance from the left side to pull it through ahead of the more powerful right hand. The braced position is a flexing downwards of the wrist from thumb to pinky. The opposite flex of the left wrist at the top of the back swing. The right wrist flex retains some of its backwards flex as well as this downwards flex through impact.

This in theory should be easier for me as a right handed golfer, because I'm actually left handed. Thanks Ray, turning fully through the shot is something I don't do well either. I understand what you're saying about a stall and can identify with that lack of turn. Will have to work on that too. Cheers

[Stuartd147]

Jazz, it is important to keep the hips and the rib cage turning through and well beyond impact. If they slow down or stop at impact, referred to as a stall, the tendency will be to slow down the left arm with the right overtaking the left through impact. Another common method to flip it left. The left hand needs to stay ahead of the right through impact and control the clubface as well. As it is usually the weaker of the two, it needs to find a braced position through impact and assistance from the left side to pull it through ahead of the more powerful right hand. The braced position is a flexing downwards of the wrist from thumb to pinky. The opposite flex of the left wrist at the top of the back swing. The right wrist flex retains some of its backwards flex as well as this downwards flex through impact.

This reminds me of something Nick Faldo called "The Amateurs Mistake" when taking an extra club. Nick said that most amateurs forget to commit to the swing when they take an extra club and choke down on it and that we fail to keep turning through the swing....the body stops (or slows)....the hands keep going = excessive closing of club face through strike = a pull hook long and left of target.

As Raz says you have to keep turning and moving through the swing!

[Jazz18]

Went out for a hit this afternoon. Had a couple of pull/hooks in there but overall much better. Turning fully through the shot really helps. Hit some good iron shots when I was able to put it all together. Gave me a little more confidence. Just got to keep working at it. Got club champs starting in a couple of weeks so would like to at least not be totally out of it after round one.

[Ferrins]

I was called a myofacia the other day, well I think that's what he said.

[Hatchman]

How'd you go with getting your pull hook under control J18?
Was being over the top the main issue or something else the main cause?

I'm fairly certain the form decline and increasing erratic contact and dispersion is I've gotten more and more over the top in the last couple of years. It's becoming increasingly frustrating hitting the pull or the block cut and having no idea which one your going to get. It would also explain my bad days hitting a number of shots fat coming over the top down and across step.

How do I stop from doing it or minimise it? I'm not sure yet but there is a wealth of knowledge out there on this problem.
Just need time to try and work on correcting it.

Anyone on the forum been through the same problem and got it sorted?
What were the key drills/thoughts that helped connect the dots and how long did it take.

[highballin]

Hatch you sure it's not a reverse pivot? Maybe just do some weight transfer drills these usually get me back on track when I start spraying them

[Peppas]

I've been trying to sort this all year for me.

[Hatchman]

Hatch you sure it's not a reverse pivot? Maybe just do some weight transfer drills these usually get me back on track when I start spraying them

Na, not reverse pivot.
I've had problems with this all my golfing life. That gets worse when I over do/extend the back swing.

I can feel the throw out over the top on the real bad ones big time.

[Jazz18]

How'd you go with getting your pull hook under control J18?
Was being over the top the main issue or something else the main cause?

I'm fairly certain the form decline and increasing erratic contact and dispersion is I've gotten more and more over the top in the last couple of years. It's becoming increasingly frustrating hitting the pull or the block cut and having no idea which one your going to get. It would also explain my bad days hitting a number of shots fat coming over the top down and across step.

How do I stop from doing it or minimise it? I'm not sure yet but there is a wealth of knowledge out there on this problem.
Just need time to try and work on correcting it.

Anyone on the forum been through the same problem and got it sorted?
What were the key drills/thoughts that helped connect the dots and how long did it take.

Haven't been playing the last couple of weeks because I hurt my hand but before that, I did start to hit the ball a little better. One tip,my club pro told me once to help was to try and keep your back to the target for as long as you can when you start the down swing. It doesn't really delay it, it just stops the spinning out of the shoulders as your first move down. It's helped me get into the right position coming down so I can hit the inside of the golf ball.

I also realised with all these sets I've been tinkering with, that the lie angles on my primary set of irons was roughly 1.5deg upright and as my main problem was with the shorter irons, it didn't help at all. Now that I've sorted that out, I'm much more consistent.