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Toolish
17th May 2015, 08:05 PM
I am in a bit of form lately, down to my lowest ever handicap of 4.4. I would like to take the next step and get down to 1-2 but I am struggling to isolate where I should look for that improvement.

The thing that is costing me at the moment is just to occasional loose shot, full swing generally, and not sure how to tighten that up. My good shots are good enough, and I don't have a common miss.

I guess the answer is a lesson or two, but I am worried about destroying the form I am in! Any thoughts are welcome.

mrbluu
17th May 2015, 08:12 PM
Not sure if u keep them but if u do look at your stats. It will give u pointers on what to work on. For me its was my short game, now that is going OK it has shown weakness in my iron play.

U might also find improvements might be from not shooting the bad scores u were having (ie your bad scores aren't as bad).

I would also be interested in what other suggestions ppl have.

LoveGolf2012
17th May 2015, 08:38 PM
Make your practice more 'Play' like set up as like say hit 4 shots to different targets with full routine,really focusing on the shot,and not your swing.

Then do another set say 5 shots,full routine,full commitment to what you are doing.

Then do a 3 shot set,same thing,different targets,full commitment to process.

Some ideas my coach has given me,also single figures,and it really helps.

Make practice shorter with real effort,then go home on a high.

virge666
17th May 2015, 09:00 PM
It is coaching time now. You will need to tighten up the technique to get to the next level.

Practice will get you about the four handicap... But past that, you have to step up the consistency

Toolish
17th May 2015, 09:31 PM
Probably should have mentioned I have not practiced at all for about 5 years, the improvement from about an 8-9 mark to where I am at currently have been mental. I used to get too caught up in playing golf swing, now I don't practice that does not happen at all. I have accepted my swing a bit and that is what worried me about coaching etc!

Honestly the last couple of shots worth have been due to buying a new putter!

I don't keep stats as I get so worried about the stats I forget to actually focus on getting the ball in the hole. Played today, Hit 10 Fairways (average would be 8-9 I would think), 9 greens (9-10 is about average for me), 31 putts, again about average (was higher prior to the new putter!). Shot 5 over. I am guessing to shoot par I need to hit 2-3 more greens and have 2-3 less putts. To make more putts I probably have to hit it closer as there was really only 1 putt I missed today from inside about 8 feet. Had a lot of 10-12 footers and a few of them burnt over the side of the lip.

Part of the reason for the lack of practice is I don't really know what to work on...I think you are right Virge, need to tighten things up a bit. It is lesson time, but have to commit to practicing too!

mrbluu
17th May 2015, 09:56 PM
This is not a bad thread.
http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/102-Can-you-shoot-6-with-only-6-greens-in-regulation

Hatchman
17th May 2015, 10:06 PM
Probably should have mentioned I have not practiced at all for about 5 years, the improvement from about an 8-9 mark to where I am at currently have been mental. I used to get too caught up in playing golf swing, now I don't practice that does not happen at all. I have accepted my swing a bit and that is what worried me about coaching etc!

Honestly the last couple of shots worth have been due to buying a new putter!

I don't keep stats as I get so worried about the stats I forget to actually focus on getting the ball in the hole. Played today, Hit 10 Fairways (average would be 8-9 I would think), 9 greens (9-10 is about average for me), 31 putts, again about average (was higher prior to the new putter!). Shot 5 over. I am guessing to shoot par I need to hit 2-3 more greens and have 2-3 less putts. To make more putts I probably have to hit it closer as there was really only 1 putt I missed today from inside about 8 feet. Had a lot of 10-12 footers and a few of them burnt over the side of the lip.

Part of the reason for the lack of practice is I don't really know what to work on...I think you are right Virge, need to tighten things up a bit. It is lesson time, but have to commit to practicing too!

Best of luck with your quest.
Hope it turns out much better for you than when I tried to go lower from 4 10 years ago. Started having lessons and lots of practice, didn't end well and grew to hate the game so walked away for 6 years.

3oneday
18th May 2015, 07:40 AM
I'd love to be able to hit 10 fairways and 10 greens, I'm shooting 6 to 8 over regularly with half that.

Maybe you should get a lesson a week for a month, practice with it and see how you come out the other end. You may find that 3 or 4 will pull you up, but without actually committing for a period you'll never know.

Difficulty will be finding a coach that doesn't want to change you into him ;)

razaar
18th May 2015, 09:30 AM
My guess is the next step is to learn the art of control with the irons. Control is the ability to hit exact distances with minimum role, including distances between clubs. This includes half and thee- quarter shots, knock downs and control in the wind from all types of lies and slopes. That should keep you occupied.☺

Hard_Pan
18th May 2015, 01:01 PM
Having played with some good players in my time, it seems to me that what they do and I don't (often enough), is hit the ball within reasonable putting distance on the green in the least amount of strokes possible. How many fairways or greens they hit is a matter of consequence. (Needless to say), at the end of the round, it's the number of strokes they took to get the ball in the hole (any which way), that counts and by focussing on getting that ball within putting distance, they seem to do this more regularly than me.

timah!
18th May 2015, 01:33 PM
Clearly you need to ask gotitatlast!

Scifisicko
18th May 2015, 02:15 PM
How many up and downs for the 9 greens you missed?

100th ranked PGA pro in greens hit is averaging 11.7 per round and playing to ~ +5. So you are 2.7 shots behind in hitting greens but 9.4 shots on HCP. Where could you best make up those shots?

100th ranked PGA pro for scrambling is making 86%, so if you had his short game you would be making 16.4 pars per round (give or take, assuming a couple of birdies make up for the odd FU) and you would be averaging 1.6 over and playing to about +2ish.

Point is you are close to a pro in long game and miles away on short game. If you had two hours per week to practice, could you reliably hit 1 extra green or make 1 or 2 more up and downs? If you could make 2 more up and downs you would be off 2. There is a neat Bob Rotella thread on here somewhere that I cant find. Someone will point to the link I am sure.

markTHEblake
18th May 2015, 07:41 PM
Any thoughts are welcome.
Like what Virge says, that handicap of 4 is stage you have reached easily and many do. I think one significant reason for why many cant get past this, is because at most golf courses it means during your best rounds you are going have this big PAR sign hanging in front of your nose, which is a massive psychological barrier, and you will probably crack more often than you dont. It is so much easier to shoot a gross score equal to the ACR, if its over par than under. Its got nothing to do with improving shortgame or putting or fairways. Some people got to that handicap because those areas are their strengths.

I played off 5 for 30 years, give or take 1 shot, never got lower than 3.5. Never got lessons. But relative to where I was at 17 to now that same handicap is at least 5 shots worse (back then 5 was good enough to make the state under 18s if you had of broke 80 in the last round!)
last couple of years have been playing the best of my life, and its pretty unusual for a 47yo to suddenly improve out of sight.

The things that must have helped me last few years, because its different
- less practice
- a few lessons from Marty Ayers
- regular chiropractic treatments
- better equipment- got the nunchuk throughout the bag

I really dunno what to make of all that, except that there is probably no single magic pill that will work for everyone. Particularly if you are new to that level of golf rather than returning to it.

Shortly after I hit my all time low handicap I have also 'hired' a regular coach and working on some major swing changes, amongst other things, new putting stroke, new chipping, pitching action, because I want to step it up further.

Coldtopper
18th May 2015, 08:41 PM
Any chopper can play off 4. Your statement about no practice proves it. Big difference between plus & 2 markers

TheNuclearOne
18th May 2015, 08:49 PM
Can't believe everyones missing the point - you need new gear. That 905s driver just ain't gonna cut it :D

Coldtopper
18th May 2015, 08:57 PM
Can't believe everyones missing the point - you need new gear. That 905s driver just ain't gonna cut it :D agree 100% buy some decent sticks toolish

Toolish
18th May 2015, 09:28 PM
Can't believe everyones missing the point - you need new gear. That 905s driver just ain't gonna cut it :D

Haha...The 905 is long gone... Now using a Mizzy Mx700, so 6 years old.... Maybe it is driver time! Need to update WITB thread!

Toolish
18th May 2015, 09:33 PM
Any chopper can play off 4. Your statement about no practice proves it. Big difference between plus & 2 markers

Respectfully I disagree that any chopper can play off 4...4% of golfers are off less than , that is not any chopper!

The difference to get lower I agree with.

Matt 3 Jab
18th May 2015, 09:36 PM
Any chopper can play off 4. Your statement about no practice proves it. Big difference between plus & 2 markers
so whats the answer? Short game? Putting? etc?

TheNuclearOne
18th May 2015, 09:51 PM
Haha...The 905 is long gone... Now using a Mizzy Mx700, so 6 years old.... Maybe it is driver time! Need to update WITB thread!

All jokes aside you are at the point and ability level where some fitted gear would help, maybe even bag makeup.

mrbluu
18th May 2015, 10:03 PM
Respectfully I disagree that any chopper can play off 4...4% of golfers are off less than , that is not any chopper!

The difference to get lower I agree with.

It is true u don't need much talent to get to 4, even I got there before.

razaar
18th May 2015, 10:49 PM
There are many players on low h'caps with dysfunctional swings. Athletic ability and some talent/confidence in ones ability can overcome flaws in technique.

Coldtopper
19th May 2015, 05:18 AM
so whats the answer? Short game? Putting? etc? Short game m3j! True scratch and better players also are that much better ball strikers. When you get to the next level of players tour pros etc its putting under pressure that stands out imo.

3oneday
19th May 2015, 07:22 AM
I play with two scratch markers quite regularly. Their short games are reasonable, but they don't miss many fairways or greens at all.

One isn't overly long, both over 50 years old.

They would also practice at least twice a week. Personally think this is key, but you have to be practising the right things.

goughy
19th May 2015, 08:10 AM
I caddied for jaster when he had his 36 hole club matchplay final against a +3 marker. Jaster was longer, straighter and inside this guy all day but this guy just putted insane and won in the end. We'd played several times with this guy and he was no better a ball striker than other low single players we'd seen, but his putting was out of sight.

Matt 3 Jab
19th May 2015, 08:37 AM
Great. So for me to come down off 4 I need to putt better, well there goes that idea haha!

Dotty
19th May 2015, 09:14 AM
Whatever Virge says.
He's been there and seen it in others more than anyone else here.

From what this high A-grader has seen, you need a technique and routine that stands up under pressure, for every part of the game.
Some do relentless practice like Vijay to achieve this, whilst others have 'natural' ability (which is essentially learning good fundamentals, right from the start).

And don't become complacent, when something goes off. The string of 80's is often preceded by 'PGA pros only hit 63% of the fairways' or '18 GIR and 18 two putts is a par round'.

Coldtopper
19th May 2015, 11:48 AM
Great. So for me to come down off 4 I need to putt better, well there goes that idea haha! so enjoy it then. Handicaps are a indication of a players golfing abilities nothing more! The best part of club golf is the bullshit!

mrbluu
19th May 2015, 11:55 AM
so enjoy it then. Handicaps are a indication of a players golfing abilities nothing more! The best part of club golf is the bullshit!
And the equipment hoing!!!

davidw88
19th May 2015, 04:47 PM
I am off 2 and play with a +1 handicapper every now and then. I drive it about 50 past him but he hardly ever misses a fairway and if he misses a green he nearly always gets it up and down.

Hard_Pan
19th May 2015, 07:07 PM
I am off 2 and play with a +1 handicapper every now and then. I drive it about 50 past him but he hardly ever misses a fairway and if he misses a green he nearly always gets it up and down.

When I grow up, I want to be like you guys!

Seriously, I do envy your (as in all guys hitting off few or none), aptitude.

The guys that play off scratch at my club (as shitty as it is), look so unflustered and effortless... They really do look like they've got all their shots on tap!

virge666
19th May 2015, 08:36 PM
Here is a couple for you all to mull over,

Forget comparing stats with tour players, they are playing much harder courses than us choppers are playing. The comparison of stats to us humans off short tees on easy courses and playing stableford is pointless.

You have to hit greens in reg and average 30 putts or better. If you dont - you just put too much pressure on your short game. You have to have a decent short game, you just have to. You cant keep momentum if you are taking 3 shots around the greens.

Low markers have a very small number of double bogeys... this comes from an understanding that you can always get a few three pointers to get the bogeys back... But 4 pointers are rather rare. If you hit it in the shit - you have to get it back in play.

You have to have a decent golf swing. The difference between me and bloke of 6 is that i am more consistant. The difference between me and a bloke of plus 4 is that he is more consistant. It is that simple. By decent - i dont mean text book perfect, but you need to be able to miss it in one direction and not move the ball too much on your bad swings.

if you are on the course playing golf swing, you're done.

He is the big one, the game, especially at our level is about distance control, there is no point hitting the ball at 100% all the time to hit your 7 iron 150m. Find the distance you can hit the clubs 8 times out of 10. This will help you no end.

if you want to copy a tour player - copy their balance. They ALL are balanced through the swing. Forget the technicals - swing whilst still in balance. You will learn SO much doing this.

Find a method or swing pattern and stick with it. i am an Edwin lad, have been for 15 years. Yeah - I struggle to draw the ball, I struggle with hitting it a bit too high every now and then, but i KNOW my swing and I know what shots i can play. You muppets who spend months trying this and trying that and then following someone then someone else looking for the holy grail are forever doomed to wander the abyss. The same can be said for you equipment Ho's.

Work on distance control with putting - it is more important than accuracy. The ladder drill is the best i have found.

Practice, find what works for you, playing holes, pounding pills, chipping and pitching, find a balance that works for you. ALSO - practice is also learning about the game, play with guys better than you, pick their brains, feed off their tempo. Look at how easy they make the game look. Imitate this, attitude is key for a lot of players.

Have a goto shot. The one you can pull off 8 times out of 10. Be it with driver or 3 wood, just to get you off the tee. I like to neck mine with a a low 10-15m cut.

Learn to play the odds and when to take risks.

Lastly, Golf is a game, a hobby for all of us bar the very few. It is a bloody great game and we are privileged to be able to afford to play it when around the world it is stupidly expensive. No one gives a shit about your score 12 hours later, so just enjoy yourself and be a good caddy to yourself. if you do this - there is nothing else about the mental side of golf you need. Dont be that guy.

I am sure the other scratch markers can add more...

Enjoy

markTHEblake
19th May 2015, 09:06 PM
feed off their tempo
this should not be underestimated. That has worked for me so often whether I do it consciously or not.



No one gives a shit about your score 12 hours later,
how about 12 mins?

3oneday
20th May 2015, 07:52 AM
how about 12 mins?that would be your wife :)

virge666
20th May 2015, 07:54 AM
that would be your wife :)

Outstanding. ROFL.

markTHEblake
20th May 2015, 01:51 PM
that would be your wife :) At least my missus asks!

FuzzyJuzzy
20th May 2015, 03:51 PM
Here is a couple for you all to mull over,

Forget comparing stats with tour players, they are playing much harder courses than us choppers are playing. The comparison of stats to us humans off short tees on easy courses and playing stableford is pointless.

You have to hit greens in reg and average 30 putts or better. If you dont - you just put too much pressure on your short game. You have to have a decent short game, you just have to. You cant keep momentum if you are taking 3 shots around the greens.

Low markers have a very small number of double bogeys... this comes from an understanding that you can always get a few three pointers to get the bogeys back... But 4 pointers are rather rare. If you hit it in the shit - you have to get it back in play.

You have to have a decent golf swing. The difference between me and bloke of 6 is that i am more consistant. The difference between me and a bloke of plus 4 is that he is more consistant. It is that simple. By decent - i dont mean text book perfect, but you need to be able to miss it in one direction and not move the ball too much on your bad swings.

if you are on the course playing golf swing, you're done.

He is the big one, the game, especially at our level is about distance control, there is no point hitting the ball at 100% all the time to hit your 7 iron 150m. Find the distance you can hit the clubs 8 times out of 10. This will help you no end.

if you want to copy a tour player - copy their balance. They ALL are balanced through the swing. Forget the technicals - swing whilst still in balance. You will learn SO much doing this.

Find a method or swing pattern and stick with it. i am an Edwin lad, have been for 15 years. Yeah - I struggle to draw the ball, I struggle with hitting it a bit too high every now and then, but i KNOW my swing and I know what shots i can play. You muppets who spend months trying this and trying that and then following someone then someone else looking for the holy grail are forever doomed to wander the abyss. The same can be said for you equipment Ho's.

Work on distance control with putting - it is more important than accuracy. The ladder drill is the best i have found.

Practice, find what works for you, playing holes, pounding pills, chipping and pitching, find a balance that works for you. ALSO - practice is also learning about the game, play with guys better than you, pick their brains, feed off their tempo. Look at how easy they make the game look. Imitate this, attitude is key for a lot of players.

Have a goto shot. The one you can pull off 8 times out of 10. Be it with driver or 3 wood, just to get you off the tee. I like to neck mine with a a low 10-15m cut.

Learn to play the odds and when to take risks.

Lastly, Golf is a game, a hobby for all of us bar the very few. It is a bloody great game and we are privileged to be able to afford to play it when around the world it is stupidly expensive. No one gives a shit about your score 12 hours later, so just enjoy yourself and be a good caddy to yourself. if you do this - there is nothing else about the mental side of golf you need. Dont be that guy.

I am sure the other scratch markers can add more...

Enjoy

Virge666 = Yoda. And then some. This is about the most useful post I've read yet on OzGolf. Reading it makes me want to move up to the Northern Beaches and pester Virge for regular lessons. I play off around 6-8 and I'm well aware that there's a massive gap between where I'm at and the guys playing off 3 and less. And I'm keen to get there. Stopping me is definitely the consistency piece, refining my short game, making my bad shots less bad, and hitting more greens. From now on when I practice (on course practice is how I roll) I'll be thinking about these pointers from Virge:).

oldracer
20th May 2015, 04:08 PM
There's a great show just hit Fox Golf, Playing Lessons where a female presenter (golfer) plays a few holes with a pro, first show was Rocco Mediate and last night was Ken Duke, good to see how they play holes with their misses being manageable, how they play certain shots, I found it very interesting

backintheswing
20th May 2015, 04:12 PM
I have switched to the rocco mediate bunker shot technique with instant results. Love the girls presenting it too, nearly as hot as Jessica Yates.

oldracer
20th May 2015, 04:21 PM
I have switched to the rocco mediate bunker shot technique with instant results. Love the girls presenting it too, nearly as hot as Jessica Yates.girls are great and can swing it, Yatesies ok Ash, I'm warming to her =P~

goughy
20th May 2015, 06:05 PM
@virge
Like

aussieashley
20th May 2015, 06:28 PM
Low markers have a very small number of double bogeys... this comes from an understanding that you can always get a few three pointers to get the bogeys back... But 4 pointers are rather rare. If you hit it in the shit - you have to get it back in play.

This is one thing I try and do. I know if I don't lose a ball (no OB, none in the water etc) and if my worst score is a bogey I can usually have a decent score. And if I do get in trouble don't try the hero shot, play the percentage shot. It's so hard to actually tell myself to do that on the course.

Virge's post is one of the best I've read on here. Heaps of quality, simple tips.

aussieashley
20th May 2015, 06:32 PM
PS - I'm a hacker. Don't follow my tips too closely :)

FuzzyJuzzy
20th May 2015, 07:55 PM
There's a great show just hit Fox Golf, Playing Lessons where a female presenter (golfer) plays a few holes with a pro, first show was Rocco Mediate and last night was Ken Duke, good to see how they play holes with their misses being manageable, how they play certain shots, I found it very interesting

Playing Lessons is awesome mate - it's been on for six or so weeks now and I watch it most weeks. My favourite so far was Jimmy Walker (cos I think he's awesome), but I found the episodes with Matt Kuchar and Lee Westwood were also really good. Rocco's was good too - if only to demonstrate that you don't need to have a by the book swing to be an awesome golfer. Man, can Rocco talk - on the show he analyses his shots almost before he's finished his follow through.
Oh, up until about three weeks ago, Playing Lessons was being hosted by Holly Sonders. Those birds from the last couple of weeks aren't too shabby, but they're no Holly:).

virge666
20th May 2015, 08:16 PM
Is it just me or is anyone else think the show is better without holly.

No personality. No skill. She is orange and over made up. Doesn't do anything for me.

benno_r
20th May 2015, 08:19 PM
Is it just me or is anyone else think the show is better without holly.

No personality. No skill. She is orange and over made up. Doesn't do anything for me.
I am on board with you there virge. The sheila the other day looked like Holly but without the make up or the silicone, ie way hotter.

And she had better personality, and golf skills.

virge666
20th May 2015, 08:24 PM
Yeah. They seem to be getting the lpga players to do the interviews.

They are able to add to the conversation and show some mad skillz.

The Rocco one was my favorite. Paige was a good host and the banter was excellent

Scifisicko
20th May 2015, 09:42 PM
To all the virge fan boys, you are kidding yourselves if you think you can pick up more shots developing a "go to driver shot" etc than spending that time learning to chip it close and putt better. The hardest parts of the courses the pros play on are the slick greens and the tucked pins. This just emphasises how good their short games are and how many shots you leave out there by not focussing limited practice on this.

mrbluu
20th May 2015, 09:47 PM
Here is a couple for you all to mull over,

Forget comparing stats with tour players, they are playing much harder courses than us choppers are playing. The comparison of stats to us humans off short tees on easy courses and playing stableford is pointless.

You have to hit greens in reg and average 30 putts or better. If you dont - you just put too much pressure on your short game. You have to have a decent short game, you just have to. You cant keep momentum if you are taking 3 shots around the greens.

Low markers have a very small number of double bogeys... this comes from an understanding that you can always get a few three pointers to get the bogeys back... But 4 pointers are rather rare. If you hit it in the shit - you have to get it back in play.

You have to have a decent golf swing. The difference between me and bloke of 6 is that i am more consistant. The difference between me and a bloke of plus 4 is that he is more consistant. It is that simple. By decent - i dont mean text book perfect, but you need to be able to miss it in one direction and not move the ball too much on your bad swings.

if you are on the course playing golf swing, you're done.

He is the big one, the game, especially at our level is about distance control, there is no point hitting the ball at 100% all the time to hit your 7 iron 150m. Find the distance you can hit the clubs 8 times out of 10. This will help you no end.

if you want to copy a tour player - copy their balance. They ALL are balanced through the swing. Forget the technicals - swing whilst still in balance. You will learn SO much doing this.

Find a method or swing pattern and stick with it. i am an Edwin lad, have been for 15 years. Yeah - I struggle to draw the ball, I struggle with hitting it a bit too high every now and then, but i KNOW my swing and I know what shots i can play. You muppets who spend months trying this and trying that and then following someone then someone else looking for the holy grail are forever doomed to wander the abyss. The same can be said for you equipment Ho's.

Work on distance control with putting - it is more important than accuracy. The ladder drill is the best i have found.

Practice, find what works for you, playing holes, pounding pills, chipping and pitching, find a balance that works for you. ALSO - practice is also learning about the game, play with guys better than you, pick their brains, feed off their tempo. Look at how easy they make the game look. Imitate this, attitude is key for a lot of players.

Have a goto shot. The one you can pull off 8 times out of 10. Be it with driver or 3 wood, just to get you off the tee. I like to neck mine with a a low 10-15m cut.

Learn to play the odds and when to take risks.

Lastly, Golf is a game, a hobby for all of us bar the very few. It is a bloody great game and we are privileged to be able to afford to play it when around the world it is stupidly expensive. No one gives a shit about your score 12 hours later, so just enjoy yourself and be a good caddy to yourself. if you do this - there is nothing else about the mental side of golf you need. Dont be that guy.

I am sure the other scratch markers can add more...

Enjoy



To all the virge fan boys, you are kidding yourselves if you think you can pick up more shots developing a "go to driver shot" etc than spending that time learning to chip it close and putt better. The hardest parts of the courses the pros play on are the slick greens and the tucked pins. This just emphasises how good their short games are and how many shots you leave out there by not focussing limited practice on this.
U must of missed the second paragraph

" You have to have a decent short game, you just have to. You cant keep momentum if you are taking 3 shots around the greens."

oldracer
20th May 2015, 09:51 PM
To all the virge fan boys, you are kidding yourselves if you think you can pick up more shots developing a "go to driver shot" etc than spending that time learning to chip it close and putt better. The hardest parts of the courses the pros play on are the slick greens and the tucked pins. This just emphasises how good their short games are and how many shots you leave out there by not focussing limited practice on this.only caught the last 2 shows so didn't see Holly, not that fussed in her so much as the gals I saw were great, could play and were "into" the show not necessarily themselves, loved it

Scifisicko
21st May 2015, 08:35 AM
U must of missed the second paragraph

" You have to have a decent short game, you just have to. You cant keep momentum if you are taking 3 shots around the greens."

Fair point. I think I was distracted by the statement that its pointless comparing tour stats.

At the OP, I am captain of a scratch pennant team that has just made its 10th consecutive final and is about to play off for 10 wins. Your stats would be pretty typical for some of the team members at the start of the seaon. Our pre-season training camp is at the short course at Philip Island where we play a round robin over 3 days on the pitch and putt course. During the season, we have two two hour practice sessions per week where we play three games of round robin with 54* 60* and putter, two balls, worst ball counts. first to 5 points with the chips, best score round the putting green. If you arent up to the hole with the putter you move your ball away from the hole one putter length for the next putt. The guys do their long game training on their own time, on average that would be another hour per week, plus games and selection playoffs.

Most of the guys short games improve out of site during the season and this is what wins matches and breaks your opponent. I did ask how often you got up and down the 9 times you missed the green, im not sure whether you answered, but from the other stats you provided it was probably around to a little less than half. If you did the type of practice described here over 8 weeks you would almost certainly pick up the two shots you are looking for. If you had 5 hours a week to practice and you spent it all on your long game, you might hit one more green, but your short game would suffer for a likely nett loss.

At the start of every Pennant season the team get the Bob Rotella schpiel. I cant find a link but I will copy the text from the email I sent out at the start of this season (in the next post).

Scifisicko
21st May 2015, 08:36 AM
I spent a day with Bob Rotella last December. One of those late-year, warm lovely days, great for golf. It was quite an experience.
He started out wanting to know why I was there, what my goals in golf were. I told him that I had played between 2-5 handicap for 30+ years, was stuck around a 3.5 index or so at present, wanted to get to scratch, and wanted to get back into at least some competitive golf, after not having done so since college (graduated '71).
He wanted to know what kind of game I played: how often did I play and practice, how far did I hit it, how many fairways hit per round, GIR, putts, up-and-down, scoring average, all of that. I told him I averaged playing twice/week, practiced for maybe an hour three other times per week. I told him I hit it 260-280 off the tee in normal conditions, depending on how well I made contact. At the time, my average for the year (1999) was 9.5 FW, 10.5 GIR, 35.1 putts/round, with a scoring average of 80.1, always from the tips, over maybe 15 different courses. I wasn't at that time keeping track of up-and-downs. I told him all this, and his reaction was both interesting and lengthy. Summarizing, hopefully without missing the essence of his thoughts, he made the following points, which I will offer in "quotes", even though they are not quoted exactly:
1) "Fred Funk leads the tour in fairways hit, with 11.2/round. David Duval is one of my guys, and he's leading the GIR category with 12.5/round. These guys play or practice every day. You have a regular job. Statistically, your long game is within a couple or three shots of theirs. How good do you logically think you can expect to get at ballstriking?"
2) "David Duval misses 5 or 6 greens per round and his scoring average is under 70. You're missing 7 or 8 greens per round, but your scoring average is 80. If you were as good around the greens as David, you'd be averaging 72. What part of your game do you think you should be working on?"
3) After watching me hit putts on his basement carpet (to a hole in the floor), he said: "You're not a bad putter. You have a good stroke. I can tell you what I'm going to see when we go play; you're putting from the wrong places. Statistically, every time you miss a green, you make a bogey. Sometimes you may get up-and-down, but you cancel that out by three-putting a green you hit in regulation, or by chunking a wedge and not even getting it on the green when you're trying to recover. You must have a lousy wedge game."
4) "Brad Faxon is one of my guys. Brad is a great putter, but not the way everybody thinks. He's not a great putter because he sinks long bombs all the time. He doesn't. He makes more of them than you do, but not enough to really matter. Brad Faxon is a great putter because most of the time, when he misses a green, which is often, his first putt is from inside 3 feet. Wouldn't you be a great putter if over half the time you were putting from inside 3 feet?"
5) "You came here because you think your mind is screwed up. It's not. You're playing as well as you can play with the short game you have. To have a better mind, you have to have a better short game. There is no way that you, personally, can improve your game by thinking better, or by having more confidence. It's true, you have no confidence in your short game. But you have no short game skills, either. You're completely rational in your thinking at this point. You would be irrational and dishonest with yourself if you thought otherwise. You have to improve your short game to have a better mind for golf."
6) "You don't understand the game of golf. You think it's about hitting great drives and long irons. It's not. It's about hitting great wedges and recovery shots. I tell my tour players that the purpose of the long game is avoid disasters, to avoid high scores. Your long game should put you into position to make par, and should be consistent enough that you never make more than bogey. The wedge game is where you make birdies and save pars. Your long game is doing its job for you. Your short game is not."
There was a lot more discussion along this line of thought. I told him that I knew I was a lousy wedge player, that I had always been so. I told him I just didn't think I had good "touch", that I preferred full shots, where touch isn't required. Rotella strongly believes that touch is innate, that most people have it, but that they don't swing properly so that it can "come out". He told me this, and more, over and over again. He asked if he was "getting through to me". Then we went out to his club, to play.
We first went to the practice tee, where he worked with me, watching me hit wedges. He was pretty disgusted. He said, "I don't know how you've missed this all these years, but you don't know how to play a wedge shot. It's not that your touch is poor; it's that you don't know how to hit the shot. You have too much hand action. You're trying to hit wedge shots as if they were drives. I'm going to show you how tour players hit wedge shots." We then spent about 2 hours working on the basics of wedge shots as he teaches them: Ball center-to-back of stance, weight on left foot, club sharply up on the backswing, then pull the hands through, absolutely minimum hand action. All of this was very new to me. Then we went out and played.
I shot my typical 80, from the tips, hitting 12 greens, playing pretty much my usual game. Most of the long shots were good, most of the short ones were poor. I was not able to apply his wedge lessons at first, on the course, except on one shot that I executed really well, to get up-and-down for par after a poor tee shot on a really long par-3. When we got done, we went back to the practice tee for another two hours of wedge work, quitting at dark.
His final advice was to work constantly on my wedge, in the ways he had shown me, and that as it improved, so would I. He told me that, given the statistics of my game, he didn't see how I could get better otherwise.
It was an excellent day, very much an eye-opening experience.
In the 8 months since, while I have not worked "constantly" on my wedges, I have greatly increased the amount of time I do spend with them. I'm still not where I want to be, but I'm getting better. My last-20 scoring average is 77.9, with a 3.1 index. I have become much more conscious of the truth of his analysis and remarks. But improvement is gradual, not sudden. I'm still taking too many putts, 34.1 per round at present, because I'm still not putting from close enough!
Thanks guys. I thought a first-hand account might be interesting to folks. It sure was an interesting day for me. Bob is very direct, certainly not one to cajole or mollycoddle a student. He tells you to your face that you're an idiot, if that's what he thinks. I told him I thought he was an obnoxious SOB. He laughed. I liked him.
Bill, I do have a 60* wedge, the Cleveland 588, which I like. But usually I carry a 53* and 57*, again the Cleveland 588. The 60* just seems like more loft than I need. It may be of interest to note that Rotella himself carries only a 56* wedge (a Vokey). He thinks -- and I am quoting exactly here -- "60* wedges are for guys who can't open the face of the club a little bit to get more loft." He thinks -- or so he said -- that the gap wedge is more crucial to have in your bag. His comments are the reason I ditched the 60* wedge in favor of the 53* model.
Rotella carries 5- and 7-woods; his longest iron is a 4-iron. He asked why I carried the 2- and 3-irons. I told him I'd always hit them pretty well, and that I tended to be a bit wild with the lofted woods. His course is fairly long, and of course in December in central Virginia there isn't a ton of roll in the fairways, so I had a couple of opportunities to hit 4-irons and one chance to hit a 3-iron during our round. I hit all three of those greens. The 3-iron shot was 200 yards into a light breeze to an elevated green with a bunker in front, steep slopes to either side. I nailed it to 20 feet, a lovely high draw. He looked over at me and said "don't change". I said, "Only when I can't do that any more." Which could happen any day, I guess!
Although he didn't have any problems, he said, with things like my pre-shot routine and my course management, he did take the time to lay out some course management strategies for me that he claimed were exactly the same as he used with his tour players. He told me that he thought I should adopt them. Here they are:
1) Inside 130 yards (i.e., PW range), always go for the pin. Learn to use your wedge well enough that they can't hide a pin from you when you're inside wedge range.
2) Outside 160 yards (7-iron range), never go for the pin, unless it happens to be in the safe part of the green. Always go for the safest part of the green. Rely on a two-putt for par if you hit the green, rely on getting up-and-down from the safe side if you miss. If you hit the ball close to a tough pin, it should be an accident.
3) Between 130-160 yards, go for the pin if (a) it is located where your natural shot shape takes it, and (b) there's not too much trouble there. This is the judgment situation. Rotella says that there's no judgment in the other cases; there's a rule, and we always follow it.
Bob went on to say that he knew, in my case, that I had not been playing like this. He said "I'll bet you always go for the pin." I said, yes, I basically did, unless it was obviously impossible. He said, "Yes, I thought so. That's the rational choice in your case, because you have no short game. It doesn't make any difference to you whether you miss the green on the easy side or the hard side. There is no easy side, because you can't play even the easiest wedge shots. And there is no hard side, because you're not likely to be outside 30 feet with a wedge, no matter where you're playing it from. But if you do what I say, and work on your wedges, you will start to get a reward from missing the green on the easy side, and then these rules will work for you."
He was so right about this. I now play much more conservatively than I used to do, and in consequence have just about taken the ugly hole off my card.

One other possibly interesting thought from Rotella: He mentioned to me that he had frequent conversations with college players about whether they were good enough to join the Tour. I asked what he told them. His answer was that on a good day, they should be able to hit 6 greens and shoot 66 at their home course. When I asked him how, he said that on a course they know, they ought to be able to hit a couple of par-5s at least, and make birdie there. The 6 greens they hit ought to be from short range, and they ought to be able to convert two-thirds of the time. The 12 greens they miss, they should be able to get up-and-down every time. Rotella thinks that if they can't do this, or see themselves learning to do it, they won't survive on Tour.
Another interesting Rotella thought: Winners on any tour you care to name (men's, women's, senior, buy.com (http://buy.com/), European, whatever) average about 27 putts/round. Sometimes a bit fewer, sometimes a bit more, but that's typically what it takes to be a winner in any given week. Therefore, 50% of the time a winning pro walks onto a green, he or she makes their first putt! Is that awesome, or what? Anyway, his point was, if that's what you have to do, and it is, then you better plan on having a lot of pretty short putts waiting for you when you get to the green, and the only way to do that on a regular basis is to have a great wedge game.

Before I left at the end of the day with Rotella, he made me write down -- verbatim -- several things. I carry them on a 3x5 card in my bag, which of course is not with me at the moment. But, among other things, he left me with the direct quote: "You have to have a great wedge game to have a great mind."
I think of it every time I play. I get lots of examples in case I forget.
In retrospect, some of what he told me should have been obvious to me. But I guess most of us have an extraordinary talent for missing the obvious.
As one example, I mentioned in a previous post that Rotella said, in effect, "On the average you NEVER get up and down." His point being that, on the average, I miss 7.5 greens per round and, on the average, I was shooting 8.5 over par. I had never thought about it in that way before. He went on to say, "David Duval misses, on the average, 5.5 greens per round, and scores, on the average, about 2 shots under par. So, on the average, he's getting up-and-down EVERY TIME, plus he's making a couple of extra birdies when he hits wedge shots close to the pin in regulation. So David is saving strokes with his short game, and you are giving extra strokes away with yours."

Oh, speaking of that, I just recalled another little soliloquy of his. At one point, he said (or words to this effect): "Okay, you're a 3.5 index and you want to be scratch. Let's say you really, really work on your long game some more, and let's say you get to where you too can hit 12.5 GIR average for the year. For the sake of argument, let's just say that. So, where does that leave you? You've gained TWO LOUSY STROKES, now you're a 1.5 index. You still haven't reached your goal! Meanwhile, you're leaving 7 or 8 short game strokes laying on the table, ripe for the picking. If you got even half of them, you'd make it to your goal! Which path do you think has a better chance of working?

mrbluu
21st May 2015, 08:50 AM
Fair point. I think I was distracted by the statement that its pointless comparing tour stats.

At the OP, I am captain of a scratch pennant team that has just made its 10th consecutive final and is about to play off for 10 wins. Your stats would be pretty typical for some of the team members at the start of the seaon. Our pre-season training camp is at the short course at Philip Island where we play a round robin over 3 days on the pitch and putt course. During the season, we have two two hour practice sessions per week where we play three games of round robin with 54* 60* and putter, two balls, worst ball counts. first to 5 points with the chips, best score round the putting green. If you arent up to the hole with the putter you move your ball away from the hole one putter length for the next putt. The guys do their long game training on their own time, on average that would be another hour per week, plus games and selection playoffs.

Most of the guys short games improve out of site during the season and this is what wins matches and breaks your opponent. I did ask how often you got up and down the 9 times you missed the green, im not sure whether you answered, but from the other stats you provided it was probably around to a little less than half. If you did the type of practice described here over 8 weeks you would almost certainly pick up the two shots you are looking for. If you had 5 hours a week to practice and you spent it all on your long game, you might hit one more green, but your short game would suffer for a likely nett loss.

At the start of every Pennant season the team get the Bob Rotella schpiel. I cant find a link but I will copy the text from the email I sent out at the start of this season (in the next post).
I think Virge wrote somewhere before something along the lines that a good long game will help u shoot low and a good short game will save your rounds.

Having good fundamentals with your long game with give your short game a chance to save your rounds.

Need to work on both!!

Dangals
21st May 2015, 09:01 AM
Need to work on both!!

I slightly disagree on this point - if you have a reasonable swing that you can repeat more often than not - focusing on your short game should be the primary practice point.

I no longer practice at all due to my 2 little ones and only get to hit a few balls on the range prior to my round on a weekend and I will not always play every weekend. I am still dropping my handicap to the point that I am nearly back to where I was when I was practicing regularly (currently index is 4.6 and before it was 3.9).

In all my rounds lately my long game has been reasonably solid but where I am losing shots is all short game with lots of bad chips/putts etc that are costing me the chance to shoot some low scores. Hell on Saturday just gone I shot 5 over and on 3 holes I was within 60m off the green off the tee and couldn't get par and I should be getting 3 pars at a minimum if not a birdie or two....then there are a couple of 3 putts on other holes I hit in reg etc. If I had any time at all to practice during the week I would be devoting 100% of my time to short game and I know my game would reap the benefits.

Scifisicko
21st May 2015, 09:04 AM
I think Virge wrote somewhere before something along the lines that a good long game will help u shoot low and a good short game will save your rounds.

Having good fundamentals with your long game with give your short game a chance to save your rounds.

Need to work on both!!

Your turn to miss the point. The OP asked what to do next. Assuming like most of us he is not doing much practice and has stated his immediate goal is to drop two shots, he already hits 9 greens.... If he were to commit to 4 hours per week practice and focus on short game he has a chance. If he spent two hours on long game and 2 hours on short game he might get 1 if he is lucky, but mainly because of the time spent on short game. The return on time spent practicing your short game is much better than time spent practicing your long game. If you have game similar to the OP and have limited practice time, if you dont focus on short game (we do 2/3 chipping 1/3 putting) you wont get better.

oldracer
21st May 2015, 09:22 AM
Can I get a definition of "short game" which club starts that part of the bag, 6i down???????

Scifisicko
21st May 2015, 09:27 AM
Can I get a definition of "short game" which club starts that part of the bag, 6i down???????

Any shot you would play at your club or range's short game practice area.

oldracer
21st May 2015, 09:32 AM
Any shot you would play at your club or range's short game practice area. cheers

mrbluu
21st May 2015, 09:32 AM
I slightly disagree on this point - if you have a reasonable swing that you can repeat more often than not - focusing on your short game should be the primary practice point.

I no longer practice at all due to my 2 little ones and only get to hit a few balls on the range prior to my round on a weekend and I will not always play every weekend. I am still dropping my handicap to the point that I am nearly back to where I was when I was practicing regularly (currently index is 4.6 and before it was 3.9).

In all my rounds lately my long game has been reasonably solid but where I am losing shots is all short game with lots of bad chips/putts etc that are costing me the chance to shoot some low scores. Hell on Saturday just gone I shot 5 over and on 3 holes I was within 60m off the green off the tee and couldn't get par and I should be getting 3 pars at a minimum if not a birdie or two....then there are a couple of 3 putts on other holes I hit in reg etc. If I had any time at all to practice during the week I would be devoting 100% of my time to short game and I know my game would reap the benefits.

That's cos you are a flusha. If I swung the club like you I would be working on my long game much either.


Your turn to miss the point. The OP asked what to do next. Assuming like most of us he is not doing much practice and has stated his immediate goal is to drop two shots, he already hits 9 greens.... If he were to commit to 4 hours per week practice and focus on short game he has a chance. If he spent two hours on long game and 2 hours on short game he might get 1 if he is lucky, but mainly because of the time spent on short game. The return on time spent practicing your short game is much better than time spent practicing your long game. If you have game similar to the OP and have limited practice time, if you dont focus on short game (we do 2/3 chipping 1/3 putting) you wont get better.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs to work on the short game as well....


Can I get a definition of "short game" which club starts that part of the bag, 6i down???????


Not sure what other ppl say normally I would say PW down. But for this discussion on saving shots I would say inside 50m.

LoveGolf2012
21st May 2015, 09:49 AM
Great reading that,just out of curiosity,if you don't mind sharing,what was Bobs fee for this lesson?

razaar
21st May 2015, 09:57 AM
The thing about a good short game is one has to learn ball control. We need to make the ball do something to get the result we want. If we don't mentally see what we want the ball to do beforehand, then we are not playing a shot. We are making a swing hoping for a decent result which is speculation. The same applies to the scoring clubs (7-iron to wedges for most players).
If we have poor ball control, the short game is where to learn it. The long game is an extension of the short game, but it is a mistake to think we can learn the art of spin in our long game and it will then filter into our short game. Most golfers who take up the game as an adult tend to make this mistake.

oldracer
21st May 2015, 11:24 AM
"Not sure what other ppl say normally I would say PW down. But for this discussion on saving shots I would say inside 50m". thanks B

BenM
21st May 2015, 11:33 AM
Great reading that,just out of curiosity,if you don't mind sharing,what was Bobs fee for this lesson?

Could've sworn I'd read it before - http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/2965-6-with-only-6-greens-in-regulation

It's been bandied around a bit, I actually thought it was from one of his books.

Scifisicko
21st May 2015, 12:36 PM
At the start of every Pennant season the team get the Bob Rotella schpiel. I cant find a link but I will copy the text from the email I sent out at the start of this season (in the next post).

Should have realised many would only read part of the thread. As you say its been around. I dint think anyone would think I had written it. Thanks for digging out the link.

Hatchman
21st May 2015, 12:49 PM
Can I get a definition of "short game" which club starts that part of the bag, 6i down???????

Inside 100m.
Learn to hit many clubs (e.g wedge set, 8, 6 and even 4 iron) the distance required inside this 100m range and develop your distance control.
Learn it from this range and it's easily transferred to when your further out.

Hard_Pan
21st May 2015, 12:58 PM
I would add hybrids to the "short game" arsenal. I have had good outcomes chipping with them from terrible lies (which I'm used to lol!)

FuzzyJuzzy
21st May 2015, 08:38 PM
What if in your limited practice time you prefer to just get on the course and play golf? That's what I prefer to do. When I get around the greens I'll drop another ball or two at distances/angles to the pin that I know I struggle with and try and figure those short game shots out, or I'll take a lower-lofted club (8 or 9-iron) and play around hitting greenside shots with those clubs for a little bit.
But mostly I'd much rather be on the course swinging all the clubs in the bag (well, within reason) than bashing balls on a range or working tirelessly on my short game on the putting/chipping green. I know that's probably quite counter-productive, particularly given that I'd love to get the handicap firmly down below 5 and then figure out how to edge it towards scratch, but that's how I enjoy spending my time when I'm at the course.

Poults
21st May 2015, 08:59 PM
I am in a bit of form lately, down to my lowest ever handicap of 4.4. I would like to take the next step and get down to 1-2 but I am struggling to isolate where I should look for that improvement.

The thing that is costing me at the moment is just to occasional loose shot, full swing generally, and not sure how to tighten that up. My good shots are good enough, and I don't have a common miss. Every professional would like to hole more putts.Not a bad place to start. I've seen scratch markers hit it sideways and still shoot sub par

I guess the answer is a lesson or two, but I am worried about destroying the form I am in! Any thoughts are welcome. Most professionals would like to hole more putts. Not a bad place to start. I've played with scratch markers that have hit it sideways and still shoot sub par

Dangals
21st May 2015, 09:13 PM
What if in your limited practice time you prefer to just get on the course and play golf? That's what I prefer to do. When I get around the greens I'll drop another ball or two at distances/angles to the pin that I know I struggle with and try and figure those short game shots out, or I'll take a lower-lofted club (8 or 9-iron) and play around hitting greenside shots with those clubs for a little bit.
But mostly I'd much rather be on the course swinging all the clubs in the bag (well, within reason) than bashing balls on a range or working tirelessly on my short game on the putting/chipping green. I know that's probably quite counter-productive, particularly given that I'd love to get the handicap firmly down below 5 and then figure out how to edge it towards scratch, but that's how I enjoy spending my time when I'm at the course.

I used to do that as my primary method of practice but as my time is so limited now I would feel that I am wasting time as I am walking between shots that I could be spending working on something specifically. If I had time to practice more than once a week I may do one session purely short game and then maybe the other like this perhaps

FuzzyJuzzy
21st May 2015, 09:24 PM
I used to do that as my primary method of practice but as my time is so limited now I would feel that I am wasting time as I am walking between shots that I could be spending working on something specifically. If I had time to practice more than once a week I may do one session purely short game and then maybe the other like this perhaps

Oh the troubled web we weave, when we shag our Wives and they conceive:). My little bloke was scooting past the bookshelf in his walker the other day and pulled a golf magazine out of the bookshelf. Think he's going to be a golfer:). Oh, how that would work in my favour:). Here's hoping....

Hatchman
22nd May 2015, 12:26 PM
For every 1hr of hitting balls for the long game you should 2-3 hrs on the short game.

Toolish
22nd May 2015, 01:04 PM
Actually looking somewhat objectively at my up and down stats from last round highlighted that my short game is what needs work. I actually felt like it was ok, but I think that is mainly because I have been putting a lot better than in the past.

I am at under 50% overall on up and downs. I am just leaving myself too much to do with the putter as I am putting pretty well, but too many short shorts are at 10-15 feet rather than 5-10 feet.

That and hitting wedges a bit closer consistently to give birdie chances will be the focus.

virge666
22nd May 2015, 08:41 PM
Sci, Thanks for the read - totally enjoyed it.

My points on comparing stats to tour pros is valid IMO. The type of course that a touring pro has to play is totally different to what we play on. We play on shorter courses from shorter tees with non comparitive rough to easier pins and slower greens. Add to that we play a hybrid version of the game called stableford 80-90% of the time. We dont play over 4 days, we play over an afternoon and we are playing as a hobby, not for a paycheck. If I was to put a touring pro, and i have done, on our Group A course on a normal Saturday - he would overpower it with ease. His stats would not be the same as his tour stats. That is why they are a pointless comparison.

But as you point out... stats are useful as they tell a story. You only need 4. Putts, Greens in reg. (you can sort of work short game from GIR and Putts) You dont need fairways, you either can hit the green or you cant, and it will show in GIR. With you, the reason Dr Bob told you short game is pretty obvious. 35 putts, playing off 5. You either are hitting a lot of greens and three putting, or not hitting many green and never getting up and down. Short game was an obvious place to improve. Lets take toolish though. hit 10 GIR, has 32 putts. Gets up and down 50%. So on 4 holes he doesn't get up and down. So he can either hit more greens and have the same putts which is about keeping the ball in play, or he can improve hit short game to maybe 70% and get his two shots there. Ether way will work, but he is not going to get the amount of improvement that you will get with short game practice.

On this - are you SURE your stats are correct, how the hell are you playing of 3, with 35 putts and a statistically crap short game ? I dont know anyone and i mean anyone off that low a number that isnt around 31 putts and a better than 50% short game. I dont quite know mathematically how it is possible.

As for the goto shot, i swear by it. I played a lot of proper competitive golf growing up and when you are playing bad, only having a one way miss at least keeps you in the game.

Lastly, the practice regime you outlined isa wonderful dream for most. for me personally, I have family and work and a life and whilst i would love to play 2 ball worst ball every second day, it aint going to happen for me and it aint going to happen for 99% of the guys on this board. Which again brings me back to you... how can you participate in that kind of practice and still have an average of 34 putts and less than 50% U&D. Are you sure your stats are correct ? I ask honestly and with no malice, i would really like to know.

Anyway - thanks for the Dr Bob, that is my 2 cents.

virge666
22nd May 2015, 08:43 PM
Actually looking somewhat objectively at my up and down stats from last round highlighted that my short game is what needs work. I actually felt like it was ok, but I think that is mainly because I have been putting a lot better than in the past.

I am at under 50% overall on up and downs. I am just leaving myself too much to do with the putter as I am putting pretty well, but too many short shorts are at 10-15 feet rather than 5-10 feet.

That and hitting wedges a bit closer consistently to give birdie chances will be the focus.

Good luck mate, i hope you find the time and get some reward for it.

Matt 3 Jab
23rd May 2015, 08:11 AM
Virg. I'm playing off 4 and I am averaging 1.9 (35) putts a round but my greens in reg is 54% and scrambling 27% or so it says. It can happen

markTHEblake
23rd May 2015, 08:36 AM
Playing off 4 means you play to or better than your handicap 3 x in your last 20 rounds ( or 4). Measuring stats for all rounds against your best 3 doesn't paint the correct picture.

Scifisicko
23rd May 2015, 08:37 AM
Great example of how threads/posts can be misread... The Dr Bob thing I not me! It was written in the 90s by some yank. The two ball worst ball practice is chipping only. In this exercise you chip With two balls against an opponent and if the worst ball of the four is yours you loose the round. Your opponent gets a point and it's first to 5. Takes about 1 hour for 8 blokes to play each other in a rr. In all my posts I've been assuming Toolish has a life/job/family but can find a few hours a week to practice. Banging balls off a plastic mat can be a lot if fun, but if you have stats like Toolish and are serious about improving being able to reliably chip it close Is a skill it is possible to develop and thereby improve 2 or 3 shots. Being able to hit 2 or 3 more greens is not possible.

Matt 3 Jab
23rd May 2015, 08:43 AM
Playing off 4 means you play to or better than your handicap 3 x in your last 20 rounds ( or 4). Measuring stats for all rounds against your best 3 doesn't paint the correct picture.

Agree 100%. Overall doesn't reflect the whole picture. But shows that generally I have a sub standard short game but a decent iron game to hit greens.

Also what I will mention is that hitting greens isn't always a good thing as you can be a long way from the hole and chipping would be easier

backintheswing
23rd May 2015, 09:25 AM
FW 50.91%
FW ML 30.00%
FW MR 19.09%
Greens 49.02%
Avg. Putts 31.50
SS 17.65%
U/D 57.89%
Par 3 Avg. 3.28
Par 4 Avg. 4.33
Par 5 Avg. 5.06
Avg Score to Par 4.88


I have been keeping stats for the last 8 rounds. SS is sand saves. Our course has over 70 bunkers, so my greenside sand play definitely has to improve. Still not happy with FW's but may have solved that this week as well.

virge666
23rd May 2015, 10:08 AM
Playing off 4 means you play to or better than your handicap 3 x in your last 20 rounds ( or 4). Measuring stats for all rounds against your best 3 doesn't paint the correct picture.

Correct - your average is 4 shots over you handicap. or 32 points. So if you are off 4 - your average score is about 8 over.


Great example of how threads/posts can be misread... The Dr Bob thing I not me! It was written in the 90s by some yank. The two ball worst ball practice is chipping only. In this exercise you chip With two balls against an opponent and if the worst ball of the four is yours you loose the round. Your opponent gets a point and it's first to 5. Takes about 1 hour for 8 blokes to play each other in a rr. In all my posts I've been assuming Toolish has a life/job/family but can find a few hours a week to practice. Banging balls off a plastic mat can be a lot if fun, but if you have stats like Toolish and are serious about improving being able to reliably chip it close Is a skill it is possible to develop and thereby improve 2 or 3 shots. Being able to hit 2 or 3 more greens is not possible.

My bad - and banging balls off a mat is never fun. Short game is way more enjoyable IMO. You can also do it for longer as the body gets older.

Why do you say more greens are not possible ?

Whilst i agree with your logic on shortgame for the higher marker who misses a lot of greens, if you want to get down to scratch you need to hit greens and you need to give yourself chances at birdie. The old saying is that "A pro that putts for pars is like dogs that chase cars"

Here is the other bit about short game when you are a better player, you cant get strokes back with a good short game. (Unless Par 5, close in two, etc) All you can do is save shots. yeah there are some freak examples, but if you play the numbers, you have to hit greens to get to the next level. Saving Par wont cut it, you need birds to cover the bad holes. And only getting 9 putts for birdie, most from outside 20 feet . . . is streaky at best.

Which comes back to your comparison to tour pros. Your benchmark for stats is wrong. Comparing your swing to a bloke that averages 290 yards to fairways that are 30 yards wide, with diabolical rough and greens with tucked pins and stimping at 12... to your Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday comp is not realistic.

Looking at my stats from last year. 12.5 greens, 30.2 putts and Up and downs at 73%. By your logic, i should be able to make a living on the PGA Tour with no problem at all. In reality, all I could get was midway in the pennant team, maybe 4 or 5. Cant make it any clearer than this. Use your stats, but ignore PGA stats - they have no bearing on us weekend warriors.



Greens 49.02%
Avg. Putts 31.50
U/D 57.89%
I have been keeping stats for the last 8 rounds. SS is sand saves. Our course has over 70 bunkers, so my green side sand play definitely has to improve. Still not happy with FW's but may have solved that this week as well.

Perfect example of a good short game working to keep the scores down. Lets use some maths to work out how to use stats properly. From the stats above,

- You hit 9 GIR and have 32 putts.
- You miss nine greens but get up and down 5/9 times. (in theory, 4 shots can be gained here, in reality, maybe 1 or 2 if you become some short game wizard)
- You one putt 4 greens a round. So you are not hitting it close enough - or having a few three putts

So what has to happen is you need to hit more greens and give yourself more chances at birdies. If you can add 2 or 3 more to that average, you put less pressure on your short game and putting and have a few more chances at birdie. if you are three jabbing - then it is obvious that you need work on your distance control with the putter.

Unless you have a lot of birdies... 3 putting is death.

Scifisicko
23rd May 2015, 10:32 AM
Too many points to argue and for most we actually agree....yes pga courses are harder but it's all relative...and if you want to be a pro you need to hit more greens. This means a lot of practice. Easy to do when your job is practicing. If you are a chopper off 4 it's all about ROI. If you have the OPs game and can only practice 2-4 hours per week and your goal is to improve 2 shots, you should be spending most of that time on short game. 2-4 hours banging balls off mats doesn't give the same ROI. If you are advising him to mix it up over those 4 hours his ROI is diminishing. BTW I agree a go-to tee shot is an advantage and if the OP had from dawn till dusk to practice of course it would be part of the routine.

virge666
23rd May 2015, 12:06 PM
yes, pga courses are harder but it's all relative

No it isnt, if it was - My stats would get me on tour earning millions a year. It is not even close to "relative", it is a down right frigging lie invented by idiots selling books on golf to high markers to lower their expectations.


...and if you want to be a pro you need to hit more greens. This means a lot of practice. Easy to do when your job is practicing.


I am not quite sure what is the difference between 2 hours on the range and 2 hours around the green. Both is two hours of practice.


If you are a chopper off 4 it's all about ROI. If you have the OPs game and can only practice 2-4 hours per week and your goal is to improve 2 shots, you should be spending most of that time on short game. 2-4 hours banging balls off mats doesn't give the same ROI.


yeah - it does. The flow on effect from good iron shots and hitting greens is immense. Just the reduction in effort of play to the pressure it puts on the opposition in matchplay to the confidence it gives the player... compared to every second hole having to get up and down, to the risk of bad lies, and the fact that you get bugger all decent birdie putts. The ROI as you put it is far higher at our level with GIR. (I say this with the assumption of a 50% up and down average) and i get 3-4 extra birdie putts.


If you are advising him to mix it up over those 4 hours his ROI is diminishing. BTW I agree a go-to tee shot is an advantage and if the OP had from dawn till dusk to practice of course it would be part of the routine.


Again - 2 hours is two hours. you can spend half an hour every couple of days on a range to improve ball striking. You dont need this dawn to dusk attitude or 4 hours as you say above. I played off scratch practicing once a week at Narrabeen range and once a week at the short game area an hour before tee off at Mona Vale. And to play of scratch - all you have to do is average 4 over for 10 rounds of golf. It ain't that difficult is you get 12-13 birdie putts a round. If you want to get into the plus figures - then you just have to hit it closer and then we are talking some diminishing returns on investment for practice. But with the current handicap system - scratch is not as hard to get to as it use to be.

Sci, I am absolutely with you if you are in double figures or even high singles. Short game all day long . . . Couldn't agree more. But if you want to get down to scratch from 3 or 4 you need birdie chances. and you cant do that when you have a wedge in your hands for 9 or 10 holes, no matter how good your short game is. We have a term for that kind of golf, and it is called "Grinding", it is a shit way to play golf.

Scifisicko
23rd May 2015, 01:14 PM
Dunno, guess we disagree (on the next steps for the OP) Even if you hit 11 greens you still have a wedge in your hands for 7. I suspect the OP would take a two shot improvement whether it was shots gained or shots saved. Reality is he misses 9 and gets up and down on 4 of them. Change that to 6 and he's going to be happpy. A few weeks of good chipping practice and he's going to see a change and probably achieve his goal after a few months, particularly if he practices under pressure. Going long game takes yonks for most to take from range to course and even longer to deliver under pressure.

razaar
23rd May 2015, 05:11 PM
It was a bit of an eye opener for me a couple of years ago when making the trip down to Belmont GC at Lake Macquarie to watch the International Amateur. Players on plus three h/cap couldn't better high 70's, some couldn't break 80. IMO the present scratch marker is the equivalent of a 3 marker 30 years ago, when scratch h'caps were awarded by the governing state bodies.
A few of us were wondering at Belmont, how some competitors earned their handicaps.

Dotty
23rd May 2015, 05:28 PM
A few of us were wondering at Belmont, how some competitors earned their handicaps.
1. Only eight rounds are being averaged to count to their handicap, implying they had four (or less) scores out of 20 equal or better than their handicap. In other words, 80% of the time they didn't play to that handicap.

2. The 'Bonus of Excellence' knocks a couple of vanity tenths of the average. ;)

3. They were brought up on PlayStations and Xbox. Through repetition, they can master their home course to get the good scores, but don't handle new challenges well.

Coldtopper
23rd May 2015, 05:55 PM
The CBF has not been factored in when referring to Open events. You know after a few holes what you are going to shoot so makes no difference having 75 or 85. Shit rounds get wiped from your averages. Playing for nothing sux. Find it amusing that some who have never played at a decent level have so many answers.

Toolish
25th May 2015, 09:59 PM
Proved my point to myself that it is different things at different times causing issues. Last round ball striking killed me.

Shot 81
5 gir
7 fairways
28 putts
8/13 up and downs.

Based on that I need to hit it better!!!

Hatchman
25th May 2015, 11:40 PM
Proved my point to myself that it is different things at different times causing issues. Last round ball striking killed me.

Shot 81
5 gir
7 fairways
28 putts
8/13 up and downs.

Based on that I need to hit it better!!!

Haha, looks like the stats for one of my rounds except the fairways hit is a bit high for me.
You counting up and down par saves only or any up and down?

When I kept stats I was only interested in up and down par saves. To me getting up and down to save bogey or double was irrelevant and counted as a missed up/down. My game turned to crap mid last year and I gave up on the stats as all aspects of my game were f***ed and I didn't needs stats to tell me that.
The biggest thing when it went bad was the ability to keep the doubles or worse off the card and even multiples in one round. When I was playing ok I'd play many games without a double or worse, now a distant memory. I didn't practice when things were good and I still don't now. I don't want to get serious about the game again like I did years ago. I don't want to hate playing again and feel like I have to play out of obligation to get my monies worth from fees paid.

mrbluu
25th May 2015, 11:55 PM
Proved my point to myself that it is different things at different times causing issues. Last round ball striking killed me.

Shot 81
5 gir
7 fairways
28 putts
8/13 up and downs.

Based on that I need to hit it better!!!

We had similar stats mate, but I dont think I put my self in major trouble as much as u did.

I had 76 on the weekend (par 70) and only hit 7 greens (I missed another one by about 30cm) for 3 birdies and 27putts overall with 3 jack.

My driving was feast or famine. I split the fairway or hit it in the boondies (more fairways than boondies), causing me to wipe 2 par 5s. My iron play wasn't great but I hit it well enough that I was missing in areas that I could get it up and down quite easily. I was 5/9 getting it up and down from in and around the green. It should have been 6/9 as I missed an easy 3 footer on 4, as I'm a little rusty as unhabe practice's my putting. Another hole I didn't have a chance as I had a massive down hill lie in the bunker.

I need to keep working on my ball striking to me a chance of going low. My short game is decent enough to keep my rounds going if I don't hit into the boondies or leave myself dodgy lies or short side myself.

Good luck with your journey toolish.

markTHEblake
26th May 2015, 06:12 AM
My short fame is decent enough to keep my rounds going. An advantage in the wind too

3oneday
26th May 2015, 07:51 AM
3 birdies in a round is key. You can always have a half decent round when you are making up shots that way.