What is Release?

[Mike O]

I'd like to get some thoughts/definitions on What is Release. As I mentioned in the flipping thread - I think it would be helpful and I also have a broader concept that I'd like to discuss and I'm sure this would provide the "material" to do so.

[mrbluu]

I'll put the kettle on.

[razaar]

I'll get the mugs. My concept of a release is how I move the club head through the impact zone to square up the clubface with a stable club head (is square to the swing plane 18" out) and to keep the loft down post impact. All this is a result of movements that led to the release as far back as the takeaway.

Do we want coffee or tea?

[Mike O]

Razaar,
can you elaborate on "keeping the loft down post impact"

[razaar]

Sure, in my swing it is retaining the supination of the left forearm and a flexed left wrist in ulnar deviation past impact and not relaxing the wrists and arms. The left arm drives forward extending the arc on the target side of the ball.

[JADO75]

Is this the passive brag thread Mike O?

[Steve]

Release... - The shot must be released and followed through without any undue physical effort

[razaar]

Most golfers wouldn't know how they released the club unless they saw it on film. That was my moment of truth when I posted my swing here. Virge and Jono let me know their views and they were right. At the time I was in the first year of a major swing overhauled. My main focus at that point was learning a swing from the ground up and learning a shut to open release. I made an awful lot of mistakes and followed a few wrong concepts before settling on my present swing. Anyway it gave me a unique understanding of the elements of a golf swing that I wouldn't have got otherwise.
I was also fortunate to play and practice with some elite golfers who gave me insights into their swings.

[talbo]

Release = Something else to over analyse.

[backintheswing]

Release = something else to waffle on about.

[virge666]

Release = Something else to over analyse.

It isn't lads. This is a pretty amazing part of the golf swing as it is the basis of your swing. All those other thing you think of all come down to this bit. It is the bit where the club head actually hits the ball. and like most things in golf, only in the last decade or so have we actual quantifiable proof of what to do.

Impact back teaching
compression drills
impact bags.
educating the hands
and many many many more...

All of the above is all there to improve and communicate this concept.

My take is simple... everything is turning left, from the toe of the club to the left knee to the hips and shoulders to your left testicle. There is no straight lines, there is no down and out, there is no keeping the club face square through impact. It is all BS folklore and has been proven by the likes of the S&T boys, Trackman, and anyone who has a high speed camera.

For mine, The release is the un-cocking and rolling of the left wrist, i try to get that left wrist pointing at the ground to give a bit of shaft lean and compression. In my swing pattern, i drop the club shaft on the right forearm and I release the clubhead by moving my left hip upwards. the left hip going upwards releases the hands and i let the hands go past the body. I keep my core and legs strong so they can be a stable base for the process to work. I then adjust my follow-through to control the ball flight. I have a few of the them and i pull out the ones i require at the time. My bad shot is the pulled shot when i get out of sequence or try to steer the ball.

Those are my keys and may not work for you... but that is how i play golf all the way down to the wedges. I keep a laminated piece of paper in my bag for the days when it ain't happening and i have it down to 4 bullet points.

[talbo]

It isn't lads. This is a pretty amazing part of the golf swing as it is the basis of your swing. All those other thing you think of all come down to this bit. It is the bit where the club head actually hits the ball. and like most things in golf, only in the last decade or so have we actual quantifiable proof of what to do.

Impact back teaching
compression drills
impact bags.
educating the hands
and many many many more...

All of the above is all there to improve and communicate this concept.

My take is simple... everything is turning left, from the toe of the club to the left knee to the hips and shoulders to your left testicle. There is no straight lines, there is no down and out, there is no keeping the club face square through impact. It is all BS folklore and has been proven by the likes of the S&T boys, Trackman, and anyone who has a high speed camera.

For mine, The release is the un-cocking and rolling of the left wrist, i try to get that left wrist pointing at the ground to give a bit of shaft lean and compression. In my swing pattern, i drop the club shaft on the right forearm and I release the clubhead by moving my left hip upwards. the left hip going upwards releases the hands and i let the hands go past the body. I keep my core and legs strong so they can be a stable base for the process to work. I then adjust my follow-through to control the ball flight. I have a few of the them and i pull out the ones i require at the time. My bad shot is the pulled shot when i get out of sequence or try to steer the ball.

Those are my keys and may not work for you... but that is how i play golf all the way down to the wedges. I keep a laminated piece of paper in my bag for the days when it ain't happening and i have it down to 4 bullet points.

I get exactly what you're saying and agree, I should have elaborated..... To me it's something that's either working or it's not and like most things in the golf swing when over analysed will destroy your game altogether and I know this all too well unfortunately! Like most things in the swing there's a reason why we do things wrong and I beleive that our brains will do anything and everything possible to get the club face back to the ball regardless of everything else that's wrong which causes things like casting and shanking ect ect ect. Look at someone have a practise swing and then watch how different it is with a ball when it's for real.

I'm no expert and I don't pretend to be but one thing is certain in my own swing..... The more I analyse it the worse I get and the more I stay away from instruction and swing instinctively the better I get and the more confidence I have.

The PGA Pro who I had 2 lessons with picked up a fault with my short irons where I had unknowingly weakened my right hand grip causing all sorts of issues. When I fixed this he wanted me to slow my hands and forearm rotation for consistency and I couldn't and still can't do it. I got a second opinion from another PGA Pro who told me to do nothing and leave it alone because it was my natural tendency so I've ignored that advice and am getting better and better all the time leaving the hands and forearms to do what comes naturally to me.

Might work for some but for me if it ain't broke......

[mrbluu]

I'll get the mugs. My concept of a release is how I move the club head through the impact zone to square up the clubface with a stable club head (is square to the swing plane 18" out) and to keep the loft down post impact. All this is a result of movements that led to the release as far back as the takeaway.Do we want coffee or tea? Coffee please!! 2 coffee, 2 sugars, hold the milk and half the water.Isn't the release what to do after u hit a shit shot??

[Jackson]

It isn't lads. This is a pretty amazing part of the golf swing as it is the basis of your swing. All those other thing you think of all come down to this bit. It is the bit where the club head actually hits the ball. and like most things in golf, only in the last decade or so have we actual quantifiable proof of what to do.

Impact back teaching
compression drills
impact bags.
educating the hands
and many many many more...

All of the above is all there to improve and communicate this concept.

My take is simple... everything is turning left, from the toe of the club to the left knee to the hips and shoulders to your left testicle. There is no straight lines, there is no down and out, there is no keeping the club face square through impact. It is all BS folklore and has been proven by the likes of the S&T boys, Trackman, and anyone who has a high speed camera.

For mine, The release is the un-cocking and rolling of the left wrist, i try to get that left wrist pointing at the ground to give a bit of shaft lean and compression. In my swing pattern, i drop the club shaft on the right forearm and I release the clubhead by moving my left hip upwards. the left hip going upwards releases the hands and i let the hands go past the body. I keep my core and legs strong so they can be a stable base for the process to work. I then adjust my follow-through to control the ball flight. I have a few of the them and i pull out the ones i require at the time. My bad shot is the pulled shot when i get out of sequence or try to steer the ball.

Those are my keys and may not work for you... but that is how i play golf all the way down to the wedges. I keep a laminated piece of paper in my bag for the days when it ain't happening and i have it down to 4 bullet points.

What are your four bullet points?

[goughy]

I thought it was what happened after you pay an extra hundred for your massage?

[Mike O]

I was merely looking for the definition of "release" in the golf swing which I thought among itself could be enlightening and then also could create the groundwork for a "new" perspective that I had. I didn't know it was going to be "too difficult" or by coming up with a definition - we'd be over analyzing it, or by bringing up a new idea for review that I would be bragging. However I get it - lot's of different perspectives and approaches.
Thanks guys.

[razaar]

Welcome to the Down Under response to the mysteries of the golf swing. If it can't be fixed by another piece of equipment or by looking at something on a screen, then it is BS.
Why don't you give us your take on what a release is and give us a run down on your perspective.

[virge666]

Welcome to the Down Under response to the mysteries of the golf swing. If it can't be fixed by another piece of equipment or by looking at something on a screen, then it is BS.
Why don't you give us your take on what a release is and give us a run down on your perspective.

Yeah - sorry Mike. We have to have a few dickheads to fulfil the bell curve.

[virge666]

What are your four bullet points?

Weight on front of heels, shoulders back and head up
Right elbow down on the backswing
Start the downswing with the right elbow drop and Release the hands by releasing the left hip up.
Let the hands rotate freely and work the shaft in and up.

May not mean much to some - but that is what has been in my bag for about 3 years now.

[live4golf]

There are a couple of things I used to focus on when I could hit a ball, both from Virge... Hands must beat the club face to the ball and keep everything going left after impact. This to me is my release.

[Steve]

What I have noticed is that you all add or subtract different body parts into the mix, it is the same when you go and see different teachers/coaches for leasons. This to me has made this all very complex. But to me all these things may assist release but what is it?

Maybe this?

Release This refers to the movement of a players hands during their swing. It is the point in the downswing where a golfer uncocks their wrists.

[talbo]

Release This refers to the movement of a players hands during their swing. It is the point in the downswing where a golfer uncocks their wrists.

Nowhere near technical enough. :lol:

Have a look for Bradley Hughes videos on the subject where he goes into all the Hogan techniques we should all be copying. I'm not inferring this is right or wrong either.

[razaar]

Nowhere near technical enough. :lol:

Have a look for Bradley Hughes videos on the subject where he goes into all the Hogan techniques we should all be copying. I'm not inferring this is right or wrong either.This is an article written by a golf instructor and biomechanic about Hogan's release. Pretty interesting stuff.http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.html

[razaar]

ItIt may be of interest to somebody, that Hogan's release (as described above) first appeared in print in Abe Mitchell's instruction (1930) publications "Essentials of Golf" and "Down to Scratch". Therefore it had to have originated in England. The Scottish swing was a flattish around the body method which relied on a rolling release to square up the clubface. This more suited to links golf which was played more on the ground rather than in the air. The Scots took their swing over to America when many Scottish pros immigrated to the US when golf took hold over there. The same thing happened in Australia with Scottish pros. I guess this is one reason why our golf instructors still teach a rolling release??

Mitchell's swing concept was to limit the rotation of the club head on both sides of the swing. Where the shoulders, trunk, pelvis and upper arms rotated clock wise during the backswing, the forearms were rotated counter-clockwise from the takeaway. In the foreward swing the forearms maintained the same rotation during the downswing which is rotating in the opposite direction to the target. This countered any opening of the clubface when the right elbow dropped inside the hip during the start of the downswing.

[Toolish]

Virge, I have never thought of it in terms of everything turning left, but that makes sense.

I can not agree with the down and out bit though. I think the concept of down and out is one of the biggest things people need to understand to strike the ball somewhat consistently. Do you not think the clubhead is going down and out through the ball (except driver)?

For me the release is the uncocking and rolling of hands and arms through impact...I never associate the body to the release. Not to say it is not involved, it all ties in, but that is just how I think of it.

[Webster]

All in here

http://staging.insidegolf.com.au/golftips/golf-science/the-biomechanics-of-club-release/

[Daves]

Here is a hacker's perspective on it. Being an older golfer with limited flexibility, I have struggled with a chicken wing finish. To avoid this, I concentrate on my finish, keeping the lead arm straight for longer, hitting down and out through the target line. If I do this correctly with extension through the ball, my lead arm will naturally fold in properly to a correct finish, and not chicken wing out. For this to happen I have noticed that my lead forearm has to rotate through impact and the finish. If it doesn't rotate, the trailing hand/arm will push the lead hand/arm out and into the dreaded chicken wing position.

[razaar]

I'd like to get some thoughts/definitions on What is Release. As I mentioned in the flipping thread - I think it would be helpful and I also have a broader concept that I'd like to discuss and I'm sure this would provide the "material" to do so.I guess the simple definition of release is " that moment in the swing when all the energy stored during the backswing, transfers to the club head. Up to this moment the club head is following the hands, after release the hands are following the clubhead. This moment of release can cause a change in the centre of rotation of the first lever ( target shoulder) to the opposite shoulder or vice versa in a disfunctional swing (where the trail shoulder is the COR during the downswing).

[Mike O]

Understanding movement: The importance of perspective - 3rd person versus 1st person - there is a difference.




What I have noticed is that you all add or subtract different body parts into the mix, it is the same when you go and see different teachers/coaches for leasons. This to me has made this all very complex. But to me all these things may assist release but what is it?

Maybe this?

Release This refers to the movement of a players hands during their swing. It is the point in the downswing where a golfer uncocks their wrists.

For Virge, Razaar and the few that like to analyze and understand ideas:
And why do we analyze and understand ideas? - because if you understand how something works - then you can do it, control it and master it - in otherwords it has real value and is practical. Now if you don't fully understand it or mis-apply something in your effort to understand it - it won't work and can make your worse - but that's not a fault of "over-analyzing it" - that's a fault of mis-"analyzing it" and therefore the solution isn't to stop analyzing but to better analyze it until you can use that knowledge to consistently produce a consistent and quality "product". If it wasn't for that - we'd still be living in a cave without a fire.

In that light of making it of value and practical, while I'll cover some broad level concepts I will at the same time provide concrete examples to give it some real substance.

I like Steve's answer above because it is simple and to the point. In a very general sense, to me I think of Release in the common golf culture understanding as follows: from a camera's perspective (3rd person perspective) facing the golfer at right angles to the target line: the angle between the clubshaft and the lead arm halfway down is released or goes away when the golfer gets to impact - where there is no visible angle between the shaft and the lead arm. There is an angle that is being "released".

Part of not analyzing something correctly is not looking at it from the proper perspective or understanding the proper context and therefore "mis-reading" and mis-applying the information i.e when the stick is halfway in water - it looks bent but through experience and understanding you know it's not bent. Later you understand scientifically how water affects light rays etc. to understand the phenomenon - all of which may help you be a better below water stick retriever - if that is indeed your profession :)

Likewise in movement such as a golf swing there are many things one needs to know in order not to make mis-judgments about what is happening or what they should be trying to do. I believe that understanding the difference between what you see (3rd person perspective) and what you are trying to do (1st person perspective) is an important tool in becoming a better golfer.

I'll get back to the specific release items on and off throughout this post but for now I'll start at the big picture in regards to proper perspective. Currently in the golf instruction culture and probably any movement instruction culture - what one sees looking at a good golfer and what one tries to do while they make a golf movement is viewed as the same thing - there is no difference. This covers too much supporting information to cover in one post - so you'll need to want to try to get this from my perspective as opposed to trying or looking for a perspective or context to disagree.

To keep it limited for now - most golf instruction and implementation is the "look at the pro", "see what happens", and then "do that". What is happening or what you see the good player do = what you should try to do. There is no difference between what you see happening (3rd person perspective) and what the player is trying to do (1st person perspective). "see what he does" - "you need to try to do that". This is true not only of the 2D picture/video analysis and historic instruction but equally valid in any current trackman, 3D analysis or current "leading" edge golf mechanics information presented today.

When in fact the 3rd person perspective (watching a movement through a camera/video) and 1st person perspective (the intention of the player) are completely different "worlds" and do not always equal each other. There are a number of different reasons for this - so this is not just "feel is not real" - however to fully understand it we need to look at specific examples of why what you see is not always what you try to do. Then later we can address the "feel is not real" topic and flush that out fully at another time.

Even though I did like Steve's answer - it also shows that the 3rd person and the 1st person perspective is rarely differentiated in golf discussions:
" It is the point in the downswing where a golfer uncocks their wrists"

That statement could be either from the 3rd person perspective OR the 1st person perspective. The mistake is made when people see the 3rd person perspective viewpoint and don't understand what the 1st person perspective was to achieve it. It is the 1st person perspective (intention/feel/awareness) that is the driver of the machine - the 3rd person perspective is the effect. Steve's comment above would be accurate from the 3rd perspective perspective however potentially disastrous from the 1st person perspective. From a 1st person perspective the player could have no sense of uncocking and yet the club would be uncocking. In addition, there is the fact that alot of the uncocking i.e. angle release, isn't an angle release at all. The golfer starts at address with say 45 degrees of angle between the left arm and the clubshaft and you don't see that from the face on angle - and as the golfer turns into the backswing you now see it, it looks like they "cocked" there wrists to get there when they did nothing. Same thing coming down - halfway down from the 3rd person perspective you lose 45 degrees from hip high to impact - when the player didn't release that 45 degrees - it just rotated from where you could see it to where you can't see it from your angle. This gives the impression there is more "release" than there is. Many golfers have no release feel yet you would see the "release" from a video of their swing.

Again - I won't be able to cover every issue in this post or answer all the questions that may come up. This understanding comes from a large background of information in movement, neuroscience and practical application - not something you just pick up overnight. With that said - the first hurdle one might have is "ego" i.e. Your telling me that I can't do what I am trying to do?! Or that what I intend to do - isn't happening?! At first it might seem like I'm trying to take away your self efficacy.

Let's review some different examples in regards to why this is happening. (You'll need to "try" to understand this when you run through the examples by yourself - if you just want to dis-prove the new concept when you run through the example - you'll be able to mentally do it.)
Force Fields & Efficiency
There is a concept called "force fields" where say you are trying to move in a certain direction but some force is pushing you off of that line (although you may be unaware of it). Another concept is where movement is made efficiently without expending the least amount of energy. One or both may apply to the following examples of why what is happening from a 3rd person perspective and what one is trying to do from a 1st person perspective are very different.

Reaching for a door knob:
When you reach for a door knob - do you move in a straight line with your hand to the door knob or a curve. 1st person perspective i.e. intent/feel - a straight line intent. 3rd person perspective - i.e. camera from side view - would show a curved path. You can do the same thing with your right forearm resting on the bar and your hand palm down on the counter near your belly button and the right elbow out to your side. Then pick a spot out to the right on the bar that you want to slide your hand to - the intent is straight (constantly adjusting) while the movement of the hand is on a curve.

In golf - a similar example would be the plane angle changes on the backswing that your hands make as viewed from behind the player i.e. down the line. The hands don't stay on the same plane angle - they curve or shift up. However, most players would not be trying to curve them up and would just intend to take them back in a straight line to one location.

In golf - players wouldn't from the top of the swing - necessarily intend to move their hands away from the target until the hands get to hip high on the downswing - yet that is what you see from a 3rd person perspective - yet their intent/feel can be quite different than that.

These are all examples in understanding that what is happening viewed from the 3rd person perspective is not necessarily and most of the time not what the player is intending to do. However the culture today doesn't understand that.

A few more examples:
Let's say you watch a player (Jack Nicklaus) and you say I want to take copy his swing. I want to take the club back exactly as far as he does. So you look where his hands go back to and you say to yourself - "That's where I am going to take my hands" - you've made the mistake of thinking that the 3rd person perspective is equal to the 1st person perspective. Jack Nicklaus doesn't take his hands back that far on the 1st person perspective - he takes them back say 12 inches before that and then starts down but momentum carries his hands another XX inches until where they end up.

Like wise on how high the hands are at the top - since the lead arm hits the chest wall and slides up it (force field)- the hands end up higher (3rd person perspective) then was the intention of the player (1st person perspective). The player isn't aware of this on a first person perspective because as noted below - feel is tied with intent NOT tied to what is happening from a third person perspective.

So when you are thinking that 3rd person perspective = 1st person perspective, then you also have the corollary concept that "feel" is an awareness of what is happening. This mistaken belief is another problem for any player - as we use feel to guide our movement, changes, etc., and if you don't understand what it is then you can't use it properly. Much like the doorknob example - "feel" is tied into "intent", goal, etc. - it is NOT what is happening when it comes to volitional movement If it was then the very upright swinger who has a new "flat" feeling swing which produces a 60 degree plane angle and the flat swinger who has a new "upright" feeling swing with a 60 degree plane angle - would feel the same thing - which they do not.

Now, let's make sure we get the context correct - certainly you can make a basic movement and be aware of what it feels like, and focus in on that. However, most movements are goal oriented and not made with the goal of focusing on the feeling of the movement.

So as noted above - in many ways - everything is possible in regards to what you feel or aware of - however you have to understand the context of the movement to get it right. The problem with the current golf instruction culture is that most would think that feel is what is happening - that it has a 1 to 1 relationship with what is happening. That you should duplicate the feel of what you see or alternatively if you feel something that doesn't translate into a picture of a golf picture that matches a professional golfer that you want to emulate then it is wrong, bad etc. When in fact that is far from the case.

So the clubhead can be going down and out but you may be feeling up and in, and the examples go on and on.

The point is that when you understand this and you write - you have to start to describe or understand both perspectives. So for example you say - the club contacts the ball at impact below the equator (3rd person perspective) however you have the intent of having the feel of the 9 iron clubface contact the ball above the equator and sense the ball being compressed between the clubface and the ground (1st person perspective) and here is why they are so different (the actual versus the intent) ............., otherwise everyone is trying to do what they see happening and that isn't going to work.

This will be a new idea and I have just touched on parts of it here - however it gives the few that like new ideas enough information for the wheels to start turning. There are important areas of movement where your intention/feel is much different than what it produces - NOT only over the short period of time (until you get used to it) but forever! It is an important area of understanding if you are digging it out of the dirt by yourself (and for teachers).

P.S. Most will just want to bury this post and I also understand that perspective.

[3oneday]

Longest post ever

[live4golf]

Longest post ever

It is only 3 words :)

[razaar]

Mike
What is your discipline/s, field of expertise?

[3Puttpete]

Understanding movement: The importance of perspective - 3rd person versus 1st person - there is a difference.





For Virge, Razaar and the few that like to analyze and understand ideas:
And why do we analyze and understand ideas? - because if you understand how something works - then you can do it, control it and master it - in otherwords it has real value and is practical. Now if you don't fully understand it or mis-apply something in your effort to understand it - it won't work and can make your worse - but that's not a fault of "over-analyzing it" - that's a fault of mis-"analyzing it" and therefore the solution isn't to stop analyzing but to better analyze it until you can use that knowledge to consistently produce a consistent and quality "product". If it wasn't for that - we'd still be living in a cave without a fire.

In that light of making it of value and practical, while I'll cover some broad level concepts I will at the same time provide concrete examples to give it some real substance.

I like Steve's answer above because it is simple and to the point. In a very general sense, to me I think of Release in the common golf culture understanding as follows: from a camera's perspective (3rd person perspective) facing the golfer at right angles to the target line: the angle between the clubshaft and the lead arm halfway down is released or goes away when the golfer gets to impact - where there is no visible angle between the shaft and the lead arm. There is an angle that is being "released".

Part of not analyzing something correctly is not looking at it from the proper perspective or understanding the proper context and therefore "mis-reading" and mis-applying the information i.e when the stick is halfway in water - it looks bent but through experience and understanding you know it's not bent. Later you understand scientifically how water affects light rays etc. to understand the phenomenon - all of which may help you be a better below water stick retriever - if that is indeed your profession :)

Likewise in movement such as a golf swing there are many things one needs to know in order not to make mis-judgments about what is happening or what they should be trying to do. I believe that understanding the difference between what you see (3rd person perspective) and what you are trying to do (1st person perspective) is an important tool in becoming a better golfer.

I'll get back to the specific release items on and off throughout this post but for now I'll start at the big picture in regards to proper perspective. Currently in the golf instruction culture and probably any movement instruction culture - what one sees looking at a good golfer and what one tries to do while they make a golf movement is viewed as the same thing - there is no difference. This covers too much supporting information to cover in one post - so you'll need to want to try to get this from my perspective as opposed to trying or looking for a perspective or context to disagree.

To keep it limited for now - most golf instruction and implementation is the "look at the pro", "see what happens", and then "do that". What is happening or what you see the good player do = what you should try to do. There is no difference between what you see happening (3rd person perspective) and what the player is trying to do (1st person perspective). "see what he does" - "you need to try to do that". This is true not only of the 2D picture/video analysis and historic instruction but equally valid in any current trackman, 3D analysis or current "leading" edge golf mechanics information presented today.

When in fact the 3rd person perspective (watching a movement through a camera/video) and 1st person perspective (the intention of the player) are completely different "worlds" and do not always equal each other. There are a number of different reasons for this - so this is not just "feel is not real" - however to fully understand it we need to look at specific examples of why what you see is not always what you try to do. Then later we can address the "feel is not real" topic and flush that out fully at another time.

Even though I did like Steve's answer - it also shows that the 3rd person and the 1st person perspective is rarely differentiated in golf discussions:
" It is the point in the downswing where a golfer uncocks their wrists"

That statement could be either from the 3rd person perspective OR the 1st person perspective. The mistake is made when people see the 3rd person perspective viewpoint and don't understand what the 1st person perspective was to achieve it. It is the 1st person perspective (intention/feel/awareness) that is the driver of the machine - the 3rd person perspective is the effect. Steve's comment above would be accurate from the 3rd perspective perspective however potentially disastrous from the 1st person perspective. From a 1st person perspective the player could have no sense of uncocking and yet the club would be uncocking. In addition, there is the fact that alot of the uncocking i.e. angle release, isn't an angle release at all. The golfer starts at address with say 45 degrees of angle between the left arm and the clubshaft and you don't see that from the face on angle - and as the golfer turns into the backswing you now see it, it looks like they "cocked" there wrists to get there when they did nothing. Same thing coming down - halfway down from the 3rd person perspective you lose 45 degrees from hip high to impact - when the player didn't release that 45 degrees - it just rotated from where you could see it to where you can't see it from your angle. This gives the impression there is more "release" than there is. Many golfers have no release feel yet you would see the "release" from a video of their swing.

Again - I won't be able to cover every issue in this post or answer all the questions that may come up. This understanding comes from a large background of information in movement, neuroscience and practical application - not something you just pick up overnight. With that said - the first hurdle one might have is "ego" i.e. Your telling me that I can't do what I am trying to do?! Or that what I intend to do - isn't happening?! At first it might seem like I'm trying to take away your self efficacy.

Let's review some different examples in regards to why this is happening. (You'll need to "try" to understand this when you run through the examples by yourself - if you just want to dis-prove the new concept when you run through the example - you'll be able to mentally do it.)
Force Fields & Efficiency
There is a concept called "force fields" where say you are trying to move in a certain direction but some force is pushing you off of that line (although you may be unaware of it). Another concept is where movement is made efficiently without expending the least amount of energy. One or both may apply to the following examples of why what is happening from a 3rd person perspective and what one is trying to do from a 1st person perspective are very different.

Reaching for a door knob:
When you reach for a door knob - do you move in a straight line with your hand to the door knob or a curve. 1st person perspective i.e. intent/feel - a straight line intent. 3rd person perspective - i.e. camera from side view - would show a curved path. You can do the same thing with your right forearm resting on the bar and your hand palm down on the counter near your belly button and the right elbow out to your side. Then pick a spot out to the right on the bar that you want to slide your hand to - the intent is straight (constantly adjusting) while the movement of the hand is on a curve.

In golf - a similar example would be the plane angle changes on the backswing that your hands make as viewed from behind the player i.e. down the line. The hands don't stay on the same plane angle - they curve or shift up. However, most players would not be trying to curve them up and would just intend to take them back in a straight line to one location.

In golf - players wouldn't from the top of the swing - necessarily intend to move their hands away from the target until the hands get to hip high on the downswing - yet that is what you see from a 3rd person perspective - yet their intent/feel can be quite different than that.

These are all examples in understanding that what is happening viewed from the 3rd person perspective is not necessarily and most of the time not what the player is intending to do. However the culture today doesn't understand that.

A few more examples:
Let's say you watch a player (Jack Nicklaus) and you say I want to take copy his swing. I want to take the club back exactly as far as he does. So you look where his hands go back to and you say to yourself - "That's where I am going to take my hands" - you've made the mistake of thinking that the 3rd person perspective is equal to the 1st person perspective. Jack Nicklaus doesn't take his hands back that far on the 1st person perspective - he takes them back say 12 inches before that and then starts down but momentum carries his hands another XX inches until where they end up.

Like wise on how high the hands are at the top - since the lead arm hits the chest wall and slides up it (force field)- the hands end up higher (3rd person perspective) then was the intention of the player (1st person perspective). The player isn't aware of this on a first person perspective because as noted below - feel is tied with intent NOT tied to what is happening from a third person perspective.

So when you are thinking that 3rd person perspective = 1st person perspective, then you also have the corollary concept that "feel" is an awareness of what is happening. This mistaken belief is another problem for any player - as we use feel to guide our movement, changes, etc., and if you don't understand what it is then you can't use it properly. Much like the doorknob example - "feel" is tied into "intent", goal, etc. - it is NOT what is happening when it comes to volitional movement If it was then the very upright swinger who has a new "flat" feeling swing which produces a 60 degree plane angle and the flat swinger who has a new "upright" feeling swing with a 60 degree plane angle - would feel the same thing - which they do not.

Now, let's make sure we get the context correct - certainly you can make a basic movement and be aware of what it feels like, and focus in on that. However, most movements are goal oriented and not made with the goal of focusing on the feeling of the movement.

So as noted above - in many ways - everything is possible in regards to what you feel or aware of - however you have to understand the context of the movement to get it right. The problem with the current golf instruction culture is that most would think that feel is what is happening - that it has a 1 to 1 relationship with what is happening. That you should duplicate the feel of what you see or alternatively if you feel something that doesn't translate into a picture of a golf picture that matches a professional golfer that you want to emulate then it is wrong, bad etc. When in fact that is far from the case.

So the clubhead can be going down and out but you may be feeling up and in, and the examples go on and on.

The point is that when you understand this and you write - you have to start to describe or understand both perspectives. So for example you say - the club contacts the ball at impact below the equator (3rd person perspective) however you have the intent of having the feel of the 9 iron clubface contact the ball above the equator and sense the ball being compressed between the clubface and the ground (1st person perspective) and here is why they are so different (the actual versus the intent) ............., otherwise everyone is trying to do what they see happening and that isn't going to work.

This will be a new idea and I have just touched on parts of it here - however it gives the few that like new ideas enough information for the wheels to start turning. There are important areas of movement where your intention/feel is much different than what it produces - NOT only over the short period of time (until you get used to it) but forever! It is an important area of understanding if you are digging it out of the dirt by yourself (and for teachers).

P.S. Most will just want to bury this post and I also understand that perspective.

tl:dr

[razaar]

Longest post everDid you learn anything?

[Mike O]

Mike
What is your discipline/s, field of expertise?

I make my living in banking and I have an interest in "ideas".
That's about it.

[razaar]

What you described in your epistle is what those of us learn through the thousands of hours we spend working on our swing. I doubt that it is new to Virge and a few others here.

[Mike O]

Potentially very true Razaar. However, doesn't get discussed enough in my book or flushed out enough. In many ways in non-golfing scientific articles it is not new at all.

The subject matter is for a very very small audience - just is. The majority won't have questions beyond "What's your handicap?" in order to verify if the post has any value. Or unlike your honest interest - they will want to see how many degrees I have in order to determine it's value or to find a reason to scoff at it. All of which is irrelevant.

You get it - "Did I learn anything?" - and the follow-up question "Can I use want I learned in a useful manner?" and for 99.9% the answer to the 2nd question will be "No", and that's OK by me.

[razaar]

Of course there is, here is one example.http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-03-revisiting-the-kinetic-link.html

[Mike O]

Of course there is, here is one example.http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-03-revisiting-the-kinetic-link.html

Well you'd be missing the significance of my post if you thought that article "covered it" - and not saying you were saying that but just for clarification - It addresses the release comment I made that from the face on perspective the angle visually goes away from half way down to impact however it doesn't really because "45 degrees" is still there if you look down the line, and the bent stick example maybe. In other words, he's visually looking from different angles and noticing different things/illusions.

On the bigger picture of my post - it's pretty obvious that he is analyzing swings from a traditional perspective - finding what to do by looking at what is happening - as a 1 to 1 relationship.

I've seen some of his work and I do appreciate and respect that he goes beyond "traditional" analysis and is working to create original stuff. Definitely a guy that just doesn't stay with the norm but is trying to find/create new information.

The place to get to in regards to my post - is to see what you can learn from it and then ask questions if you need more detail and then at some point move on. It's not about any "ego" in regards to if someone else has already taught it, knows about it, or how many degrees I don't have. My self interest in posting it was to hopefully have someone have an interest and ask questions (via private message or forum post) that may help me refine/clarify my own thinking. It's just a small portion of an overall broader movement theory.

[razaar]

TheThe article I posted is one of many by that particular author, who is a US golf instructor and who is a leading qualitative bio mechanist. I put it up as a sample of what is out there on the internet.

[JADO75]

No disrespect intended Mike but can you play or coached anyone that has done anything?

[Mike O]

[QUOTE=JADO75;1175903]No disrespect intended Mike but can you play or coached anyone that has done anything?[/QUOTE

No disrepect taken. My information is not for you.

If you still feel like you need an answer to your question then I would tell you that I have never broken 100 and never taught anyone however I am improving.

[razaar]

Happy New Year Mike and good luck with your project.

[live4golf]

[QUOTE=JADO75;1175903]No disrespect intended Mike but can you play or coached anyone that has done anything?[/QUOTENo disrepect taken. My information is not for you.If you still feel like you need an answer to your question then I would tell you that I have never broken 100 and never taught anyone however I am improving. If your information is only for a select few then maybe pm is the go? Be a shame to have a TGM like thread on Ozgolf that precludes many members from posting and causes a ton of issues and resentment.

[davepuppies]

L
[QUOTE=JADO75;1175903]No disrespect intended Mike but can you play or coached anyone that has done anything?[/QUOTE

No disrepect taken. My information is not for you.

If you still feel like you need an answer to your question then I would tell you that I have never broken 100 and never taught anyone however I am improving.
I can appreciate you like to really think, and explore ideas about the golf swing. You obviously have a curious and analytical mind,mhowever if you have not broken 100, I wonder if you are overthinking it, and haven't gone beyond thought into execution.
Am I good golfer? No. I have been a mid single figure marker most of my life, and have no technical swing expertise beyond knowing my own swing.
I admit I get lost when people talk TGM, and for the most part am lost here in this thread. Do I know how to make a golf ball go where I want? Sometimes. I understand path and club face angle. That is as complicated as I need it.

Best of luck on your journey, hopefully your theory translates into execution this year

[Coldtopper]

Th average golf swing only takes a few seconds to execute.
There are a few important aspects to hitting a golf ball well and none are written about here. Imo

Id be working on the short game!

[JADO75]

Cheers for the back up boys, I was getting there.

Who is the info for them Mike? It is absolutely relevant whether you can play or not otherwise it's just the ramblings of a man who couldn't hit water at Aqua golf & is copying something he read in a book or online. All you're doing is confusing the crap out people. I also understand that not all coaches in any sport are guns but it sure helps if you can play somewhere above average.
Me personally, I can play a bit, I hit the ball further than most but not as long as some, can hit pretty much any shot I want & understand my swing & what works for me. My problem is I unfortunately have a $2 head that gets in the way of me being the best golfer I could be results wise.

[3oneday]

My daughter, son, neice and nephews hit water at aqua golf yesterday.

3rd person 1st person is mumbo jumbo, we are playing golf, mostly not as good as we want but if I play once a week and break 80 regularly, i'm happy.

Write whatever you like though, debate and ideas are good but as Jado said, overthinking something that one is clearly not very good at is a bad way to start. If thats what rows your boat, I doubt you'll achieve many score relates goals.

At the end of the day, that's what it is about. When raz redesigned his swing, it wasn't so he could write about it I don't reckon.

[talbo]

[QUOTE=Mike O;1176001] If your information is only for a select few then maybe pm is the go? Be a shame to have a TGM like thread on Ozgolf that precludes many members from posting and causes a ton of issues and resentment.

Only becomes an issue dependant on who the poster is.......

Good to see that opinions are permitted on ozgolf after all! Good luck with it Mike O, I hope it works out for you.

[Mike O]

Cheers for the back up boys, I was getting there.

Who is the info for them Mike? It is absolutely relevant whether you can play or not otherwise it's just the ramblings of a man who couldn't hit water at Aqua golf & is copying something he read in a book or online. All you're doing is confusing the crap out people. I also understand that not all coaches in any sport are guns but it sure helps if you can play somewhere above average.
Me personally, I can play a bit, I hit the ball further than most but not as long as some, can hit pretty much any shot I want & understand my swing & what works for me. My problem is I unfortunately have a $2 head that gets in the way of me being the best golfer I could be results wise.

Who is it for and who is it not for?
First you have to be immensely passionate about this game and strive to be the best that you can be. If you are happy just breaking 80 then this isn't for you.

2nd you have to understand that knowledge, ANY knowledge and that includes movement knowledge IS NOT validated,measured,etc by the SOURCE nor is it measured by the number of people that support it. If you are going to detach the roots of knowledge from the soil of reality then this isn't for you.

When you use an adverb like "over" which may be applicable to eating and you apply it to analyzing or thinking - then this isn't for you.

When your logic tells you that since the movement only takes 2 seconds therefore their are only a few things you need to know - this isn't for you.

When you think you understand your swing, can pretty much hit any shot you want and that the problem rests in your head - then this isn't for you.

If my post was too long for you to read - then this isn't for you.


Finally, If you did take the time to read my post(s) with some thought and introspection, you'd need to have enough understanding to realize that it wasn't from someone that just started this game last week or last year, and while Razaar stated 1,000 hours or more - probably closer to 10,000 hours or more to be able to get to the point to create a post like that.

Therefore when you read that if you really needed an answer to your question that "I would need to tell you that I have never broke 100 and never taught anyone", you would at the very least question that with a huge amount of doubt. So if you did AND you are passionate about this game and you didn't fall into any of the categories above = then you might be someone who is interested in my material.

[JADO75]

Had a feeling you could play a bit but you lost me at Who sorry

[Ned]

An Analytical Banker who moonlights as a Golf Analyst...............:-k

[Dotty]

Had a feeling you could play a bit but you lost me at Who sorry
I think of it like Nascar.

I daren't turn it off, just in case he posts his putting stats.

[Tank33]

Who is it for and who is it not for?
First you have to be immensely passionate about this game and strive to be the best that you can be. If you are happy just breaking 80 then this isn't for you.

2nd you have to understand that knowledge, ANY knowledge and that includes movement knowledge IS NOT validated,measured,etc by the SOURCE nor is it measured by the number of people that support it. If you are going to detach the roots of knowledge from the soil of reality then this isn't for you.

When you use an adverb like "over" which may be applicable to eating and you apply it to analyzing or thinking - then this isn't for you.

When your logic tells you that since the movement only takes 2 seconds therefore their are only a few things you need to know - this isn't for you.

When you think you understand your swing, can pretty much hit any shot you want and that the problem rests in your head - then this isn't for you.

If my post was too long for you to read - then this isn't for you.


Finally, If you did take the time to read my post(s) with some thought and introspection, you'd need to have enough understanding to realize that it wasn't from someone that just started this game last week or last year, and while Razaar stated 1,000 hours or more - probably closer to 10,000 hours or more to be able to get to the point to create a post like that.

Therefore when you read that if you really needed an answer to your question that "I would need to tell you that I have never broke 100 and never taught anyone", you would at the very least question that with a huge amount of doubt. So if you did AND you are passionate about this game and you didn't fall into any of the categories above = then you might be someone who is interested in my material.

I haven't been here for too long but long enough to figure out you are not welcomed if you post anything meaningful in more than a few lines.

You are VERY welcomed if you jump to buy stuff from the Proshop.

Ozgolf (so called forum) isn't anything like GolfWRX but more like Gumtree 4 golf.

[Steve57]

I haven't been here for too long but long enough to figure out you are not welcomed if you post anything meaningful in more than a few lines.You are VERY welcomed if you jump to buy stuff from the Proshop.Ozgolf (so called forum) isn't anything like GolfWRX but more like Gumtree 4 golf.I disagree. A little calling out of the posters credentials is healthy.Whilst I don't fully understand Mike's description of the release, I can appreciate Jado's quest to find out his background and the source of his knowledge. There are two sides to every argument.Mike, please do not be put off by others questioning of your background.It is all good healthy discussion and as you said earlier, some will get what is being discussed, others won't.I, like Jado believe that you are more than just a hacker but I can also understand that what you play off has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. There is no right or wrong and every reader can take what they want from the discussion in this thread!

[Tank33]

This is an internet forum and you dont need to run a background checks on posters. Does it really matter? Its not like Mike O was trying to sell you anything or trying to teach anyone for a return. Why cant we just welcome anyone who has something to say about golf? Just ignore the thread if you dont have anything constructive to add.

[JADO75]

What about the blokes who aren't confident in their game & look to forums like this for info & they come across Mike's stuff that only does their head in more?

[Tank33]

I suppose they can come to you for a lesson and a shelter

[JADO75]

I'm not offering advice champ & I'm sure Mike must be flattered that he has an admirer

[Tank33]

What about the blokes who aren't confident in their game & look to forums like this for info & they come across Mike's stuff that only does their head in more?

One minute you were acting like a big boy trying to protect the innocents from the unqualified post from a relatively new forum poster


I'm not offering advice champ & I'm sure Mike must be flattered that he has an admirer

Now you are acting like a lil girl.

Where did I say I admire Mike or find what he wrote is the holy grail of golf swing?

Only thing I was saying Why you (all established users of Ozgolf) always seem to have trouble if newbies post anything in length and have to jump on them to shut them up?

I don't know how many new golfers come to Ozgolf to learn the game. I doubt there are many. Even then, I don't think they can find anything much useful here anyway.

I have read the forum quite regularly for three years and only found a few posts Virge has come up with occasionally had something useful to me to read and learn.

Other than that, unless I find anything I want to buy, its all garbage and I found it sad because I believe we can all do better to make it a more interesting and informing site than what it is now.

[Ned]

Comments in #54 and #61 seem to be contradictory.

[Dotty]

This is an internet forum and you dont need to run a background checks on posters. Does it really matter? Its not like Mike O was trying to sell you anything or trying to teach anyone for a return. Why cant we just welcome anyone who has something to say about golf? Just ignore the thread if you dont have anything constructive to add.
Because it is the internet.

I could get on a travel forum and write pages on backpacking in Japan. Should my words have the same credibility as those that have actually backpacked or been to Japan?

Golf has been around for centuries. What's worked has stayed, what hasn't has disappeared. If there is something different to say, then it will need to work (ie. results) to be given credibility.

I blame this over-analysis by high-handicappers for the fall in golf participation. They take forever to play a shot, stuff it up and then take forever to play the next from the rough, then from the bunker, and bunker again. (FFS. Four groups had a 5+ hour round on NYD, courtesy of high-marker associates grabbing the first tee time, instead of the usual 3.5 hours.)

It's not a newbie thing, it's a proof thing.

[Ned]

Beers and skittles time. :roll:

[razaar]

I haven't been here for too long but long enough to figure out you are not welcomed if you post anything meaningful in more than a few lines.

You are VERY welcomed if you jump to buy stuff from the Proshop.

Ozgolf (so called forum) isn't anything like GolfWRX but more like Gumtree 4 golf.Tank, I am only an occasional visitor here these days and know many of the longtime members. This forum is different to most forums because many of the members socialize together outside the forum and on the course. The banter on the forum is not much different to the talk between mates after a round of golf.

Mike tried to flog his book to the wrong forum IMO. Personally I don't think he knows much about the golf swing. If he does he wasn't giving anything away. Most of it was pretty basic generalizations that others have published. He missed the example of the bumble bee, an insect that defies the principles of flight before ultra high speed cameras were invented.

Woody Allen came up with a great quote that has an element of truth.
"If you can't do
Teach
If you can't teach
Teach golf".

[3oneday]

Thanks, pleased I didn't learn anything then ;)

[razaar]

You already knew about the bumble bee? Bugger.

[Mike O]

All great information gents however my main concern right now is that I think I broke my computer screen trying to squish the bug in Ned's tag line that I thought was inside the screen of my computer. Maybe someone can pm me a virus that I can then PM to Ned's home computer. Jack - I'm sure you have a virus :) ;)

[Mike O]

Because it is the internet.

I could get on a travel forum and write pages on backpacking in Japan. Should my words have the same credibility as those that have actually backpacked or been to Japan
Sounds like a good idea. Doesn't hurt on the front end. However, it's not essential. If any information say my post was posted by Jack Nicklaus or myself that doesn't help in the "proof thing" - might make you feel better going in but at the end of the day it doesn't help in proving anything. Nicklaus use to write that the ball starts where the clubhead is moving and curves to where the face is pointing. You don't prove things by the source.
Golf has been around for centuries. What's worked has stayed, what hasn't has disappeared. If there is something different to say, then it will need to work (ie. results) to be given credibility.That's right but you don't "prove it" by having the person that performs something well and then says something about what they are doing and take those two together as proof. You take the information and then use it or analyze it yourself and see if it makes sense or works.

I blame this over-analysis by high-handicappers for the fall in golf participation. They take forever to play a shot, stuff it up and then take forever to play the next from the rough, then from the bunker, and bunker again. (FFS. Four groups had a 5+ hour round on NYD, courtesy of high-marker associates grabbing the first tee time, instead of the usual 3.5 hours.Quite the theory - although I play fast and I am not a high handicapper. Although some of you have caught me in my attempt to slow rounds "down under" to 8 plus hours by posting over-analyzed posts on oz golf forum for the un-informed, high handicappers to read and then think about on the course.

It's not a newbie thing, it's a proof thing.

my comments in bold

[Mike O]

Thanks for letting me visit guys! I tried to post something of substance in hopes someone would disagree with a point, or not understand a point and ask for clarification. Instead they wanted to know how good of a golfer I am (played in college - low score 63) or focus on some other issue which doesn't interest me. No gain No loss. My interests/perspective is just different than most here - no hard feelings. This is my last post - enjoy the beer and skittles!

[3Puttpete]

No sale

[3oneday]

What's the book called? Jado wants one.

[Ned]

Yawn.............

[Dotty]

No disrespect intended Mike but can you play or coached anyone that has done anything?

No disrepect taken. My information is not for you.

If you still feel like you need an answer to your question then I would tell you that I have never broken 100 and never taught anyone however I am improving.

Thanks for letting me visit guys! I tried to post something of substance in hopes someone would disagree with a point, or not understand a point and ask for clarification. Instead they wanted to know how good of a golfer I am (played in college - low score 63) or focus on some other issue which doesn't interest me. No gain No loss. My interests/perspective is just different than most here - no hard feelings. This is my last post - enjoy the beer and skittles!
This all could have been avoided, if we weren't lied to in the first place.

Another name for the OZgolf wall of infamy.

[yoyo]

http://i58.tinypic.com/2w72z3o.jpg

[Tank33]

This forum is different to most forums because many of the members socialize together outside the forum and on the course.

Socialising outside the forum and on the course is definitely a huge strength of this forum. However, you have to remember because of that closeness between established users, it is even harder for a new user to find a gap and squeeze through to have any sense of belonging to this forum. The last thing you want to do is jump on a post from the new user to piss them off. You might as well have a closed forum.




The banter on the forum is not much different to the talk between mates after a round of golf.

Again, The banter only works between mates or users who know each other personally. You reply all the smart arse comments to a new user. I don't know who can take it as a joke and laugh it off.

You might think we don't need the new users as long as you are moving gears ok and have the champs happening every year. However, its always merrier with more active users.

[yoyo]

Seriously, this forum is cream puff stuff compared to some of the war zones I've been involved in online....

[3Puttpete]

Socialising outside the forum and on the course is definitely a huge strength of this forum. However, you have to remember because of that closeness between established users, it is even harder for a new user to find a gap and squeeze through to have any sense of belonging to this forum. The last thing you want to do is jump on a post from the new user to piss them off. You might as well have a closed forum.





Again, The banter only works between mates or users who know each other personally. You reply all the smart arse comments to a new user. I don't know who can take it as a joke and laugh it off.

You might think we don't need the new users as long as you are moving gears ok and have the champs happening every year. However, its always merrier with more active users.

If you post something that somebody disagrees with, doubts or has questions about then be prepared to be asked.

It's how he world is supposed to work and hopefully helps us (yes, me included) to avoid making the same mistake multiple times. If you can't handle it, move on.

We're not all Gen Y where everybody wins all the time.

[razaar]

Socialising outside the forum and on the course is definitely a huge strength of this forum. However, you have to remember because of that closeness between established users, it is even harder for a new user to find a gap and squeeze through to have any sense of belonging to this forum. The last thing you want to do is jump on a post from the new user to piss them off. You might as well have a closed forum.





Again, The banter only works between mates or users who know each other personally. You reply all the smart arse comments to a new user. I don't know who can take it as a joke and laugh it off.

You might think we don't need the new users as long as you are moving gears ok and have the champs happening every year. However, its always merrier with more active users.My introduction to the forum was s bobby dazzler. I had guys coming at me from all directions. It was part of the group forming dynamics within the membership at that time. I used it to keep my mind active and socialize with other golfers around the country. I got to meet andl play with golfers I would never have met otherwise. I'm sure that many of the members have had similar experiences. If I had acted like a princess it would have been different.

[yoyo]

Getting back roughly on topic....... Like pretty much any sport (actually, probably exponentially more so in a sport like golf), it's very easy to over complicate things.
Keeping things as simple and relaxed as possible is almost always going to bring dividends.
All too often you see people, professionals included, going in search of answers to questions that no one is actually asking. Or perhaps one person is - the stupid little voice inside their own head.
Some times you don't actually need to change anything, you just need to take a step back and make sure that you are actually doing the things that you think you are, in the first place. Often, you are not.

For some, the placebo effect of a new Driver, for example, may just be the prescription for the way their mind ticks. There most likely is a reasonable level of solidness to the method within the madness of a club Ho.

[3oneday]

I don't mind different ideas, but in my opinion it quickly moved towards flogging something.

I've golfed for over 30 years, not saying i've experienced high level golf but I also couldn't grasp anything he was saying.

[virge666]

I quite like this bit...


everything is possible in regards to what you feel or aware of - however you have to understand the context of the movement to get it right. The problem with the current golf instruction culture is that most would think that feel is what is happening - that it has a 1 to 1 relationship with what is happening. That you should duplicate the feel of what you see or alternatively if you feel something that doesn't translate into a picture of a golf picture (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Kinetic-Golf-Picture-the-Game-Like-Never-Before/21663839) that matches a professional golfer that you want to emulate then it is wrong, bad etc. When in fact that is far from the case.

I find this the hardest part of the golf swing... you see something happening, you don't understand what the player actually feels to have the happen in your swing. It is more than feel vs real. It is the process of execution that gives you the result you want to see. The classic example of this is an Over the Top move, you will see so many idiots out there rehearsing taking the club back more and more inside to try and fix it, when what you should do it get it more and more outside to fix it.... one is visual and the other is the execution.

I quite liked the post... there are times I wish you guys would attack the ideas instead of the player. It doesn't really matter who the bloke is or what his handicap is. It is his ideas that he puts forward that you should consider. You will be able to find out quick enough from his posts what his credentials are. I have had plus markers talk utter shite to me for hours and I have had 6 markers simplify things beautifully. The ideas, not the person is the qualification.

Lastly, since we have lost/banned a lot of guys that have been the banter and in some cases life of the place, it will take more time to find others to replace them. But Tank is right, there are some that are a bit clicky and gumtree is a simplistic but no too far from the mark.

Personally - cant we just un-ban everyone and see what happens ? (Just watched Batman 2 with the Joker... a little chaos is good IMHO)

[yoyo]

I was very dark on myself after the hit out at Pacific harbour, aside from playing like crap in general, after i broke it down and excluded some things (eg. Using brand new putter, not quite used to it so putting was a bit off) the thing I was most disappointed in was my driving. It was woeful. What made it worse was I have been hitting it well lately and then it all just fell apart.Last night I sat down and watched a few vids online looking at a few coaches and pro's. I found a couple of things, particularly in video analysis of henrik stenson on and Sergio Garcia with the driver and had that lightbulb moment where you want to pat yourself on the back and slam your balls in the kitchen drawer at the same time.Wen pt to the range this morning, implemented 3 small changes and one mental concept in a portion of the swing and - bingo. Nailing it like a cheap whore.

[razaar]

I quite like this bit...



I find this the hardest part of the golf swing... you see something happening, you don't understand what the player actually feels to have the happen in your swing. It is more than feel vs real. It is the process of execution that gives you the result you want to see. The classic example of this is an Over the Top move, you will see so many idiots out there rehearsing taking the club back more and more inside to try and fix it, when what you should do it get it more and more outside to fix it.... one is visual and the other is the execution.

I quite liked the post... there are times I wish you guys would attack the ideas instead of the player. It doesn't really matter who the bloke is or what his handicap is. It is his ideas that he puts forward that you should consider. You will be able to find out quick enough from his posts what his credentials are. I have had plus markers talk utter shite to me for hours and I have had 6 markers simplify things beautifully. The ideas, not the person is the qualification.

Lastly, since we have lost/banned a lot of guys that have been the banter and in some cases life of the place, it will take more time to find others to replace them. But Tank is right, there are some that are a bit clicky and gumtree is a simplistic but no too far from the mark.

Personally - cant we just un-ban everyone and see what happens ? (Just watched Batman 2 with the Joker... a little chaos is good IMHO)It is difficult unless you know what the micro moves are that cause the macro moves of the movement. If you have a grasp of the stretch shorten cycle and how SSC influences muscle contractions then it is not to difficult to pick up on how a player performs a movement. Since the swing takes about 2 seconds the player hasn't the time to think macro movements. He has to rely on SSC in his deliberate movements to fire the opposite movements. Adduction fires abduction, internal rotation fires external rotation, flexion fires extension, and vice versa when the contraction or stetch nears its limit or range. It is worth the effort to do the research on how the body works, especially how the spine engine works.

[virge666]

No one is going to do that Ray... and that is not a method of teaching for a casual player and I would hazard to say a professional player.

[razaar]

I am probably the only one who does it. I guess it may depend on what we have been exposed to. All the info is on the internet ready to be accessed.

[sms316]

Paralysis by analysis much?

Just drop the club on the back of the ball FFS.

[meh]

Paralysis by analysis much?

Just drop the club on the back of the ball FFS.

What he said ^^

[razaar]

We all reach a point in our lives when we lose our athleticism. Then golf becomes a real slog. One of the alternatives to not losing much is to reeducate ourselves in recovering some athleticism and becoming more technical correct in how we play the game. I found that the work and effort very rewarding. It is a great hobby.

[live4golf]

The issue I had with this guy was in a post he subsequently edited where he said...and I am paraphrasing 'This is for the very select few who may understand this, all you others will not and need not respond'. I have spent a bit of time with a few guys on here and there is no exclusion when it comes to knowledge.

[yoyo]

I quit the ultimate analysis paralysis sport, indont need to re-inject that level of grief back into my life again.

[goughy]

Yeah, definitely replaced it with something less obsessive! ;)

[yoyo]

Keepin' it simple bro!

[3oneday]

We all reach a point in our lives when we lose our athleticism. Then golf becomes a real slog. One of the alternatives to not losing much is to reeducate ourselves in recovering some athleticism and becoming more technical correct in how we play the game. I found that the work and effort very rewarding. It is a great hobby.my dad is off 10 and is 70. Currently frustrated as not hitting it as far as he used to.

Still hits a 9 iron 120, problem is he expects to do this everytime as well.

Took him to the range this morning after he had a shocker on Satdy, noting he's had a shocker with me everytime he's played lately so I'm thinking there's an underlying story there, and suggested that maybe he should be happy hitting a 9 iron 100.

After 10 minutes, his accuracy was back and we went home. What did we change? Ball position 3 inches back, ball first, leaf 2 inches in front of ball 2nd. All from wanting the same oompf from years ago ;)

Golf itself is simple when you've played for 40 years, the challenge is convincing your brain you're getting old :)

[razaar]

Haha..wait until it's your turn.
I think you are all misunderstanding my post. As our bodies change guess what else changes. Actually it changes from day to day and we have to make adjustments. Trust me, it really helps to know what is happening and get right to the root of s swing flaw before it becomes a real issue. I don't think it is possible to learn it on a forum.

A tour player who I play with when the opportunity presents, talks about his swing on occasions and I know exactly what he is talking about. A few years ago I wouldn't have had a clue.

[Tank33]

Personally - cant we just un-ban everyone and see what happens ? (Just watched Batman 2 with the Joker... a little chaos is good IMHO)

I believe most of them have been unbanned a long time ago but they all chose to stay away from the site.

[Tank33]

Thanks for letting me visit guys! I tried to post something of substance in hopes someone would disagree with a point, or not understand a point and ask for clarification. Instead they wanted to know how good of a golfer I am (played in college - low score 63) or focus on some other issue which doesn't interest me. No gain No loss. My interests/perspective is just different than most here - no hard feelings. This is my last post - enjoy the beer and skittles!

Don't forget you also had Razaar and Virge coming up with POINTS to keep the discussion alive. So I hope you come back and finish off what you started. I am sure there were a lot of lurkers eager to listen what you come up with.

Personally, it's not about whether I learn anything or do my head in from your posts. It's always more interesting to read about different ideas and opinions than going through 4 sale thread or those one liners.
Why can't we have a good long running thread that is worth having a sticker so when a newbie joins and reads through them to find anything substantial and useful?

I think this is our longest running (post wise) thread which reflects where this forum is currently at.
What have you bought this weekend for golf (http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/13552-What-have-you-bought-this-weekend-for-golf)
Users make up posts and those posts make up the forum. I really hope we can have one or two threads with on-going discussions and if you don't care and aren't willing to start one up, please don't try to kill it off.

[Dotty]

Users make up posts and those posts make up the forum. I really hope we can have one or two threads with on-going discussions and if you don't care and aren't willing to start one up, please don't try to kill it off.
That is the crux of the conflict. The poster was asked for credentials to back up his statements.

It's no different to when cold-callers say 'You have a Microsoft Windows Virus' or 'Your bank account has been frozen' and expect the punters to give the passwords, account numbers, etc.

He told us that he had never broken 100. I don't put my money with unproven schemes, I don't put my time with unproven golf ideas.

If he had originally told us the truth that he was an ex-college player, etc. then all the friction could have been avoided.

[razaar]

Tank, it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion on the golf swing especially with normal golfers who rely on their atheticism and hand eye coordination to play the game. Most people play golf this way and most people find it extremely difficult to articulate how they do and what they do.
If it works more often than not, then it is a keeper.

3's post about his Dad's swing is a typical solution to a swing problem. Problem solved by moving the ball back in the stance. It will be interesting to learn how this works on the course when his Dad has to play longer clubs than the 9-iron and from unlevel lies.

[Tank33]

That is the crux of the conflict. The poster was asked for credentials to back up his statements.

It's no different to when cold-callers say 'You have a Microsoft Windows Virus' or 'Your bank account has been frozen' and expect the punters to give the passwords, account numbers, etc.

He told us that he had never broken 100. I don't put my money with unproven schemes, I don't put my time with unproven golf ideas.

If he had originally told us the truth that he was an ex-college player, etc. then all the friction could have been avoided.

I think you are missing the point. If you have to know users' credentials before you READ their posts, what are you doing reading and replying to my posts. You don't know my credentials.

And where are your credentials? Just because you have been on the forum since 2007 with 7,654 posts, does that fact give you CREDENTIALS to talk about things?

It was obvious (well at least to me) when he said he had never broken 100, he was being sarcastic because he was asked of that question.

Why does anyone need to be a golf pro with credentials to post an opinion about a golf swing? Its not like he asked you to pay him any money to read his post.
No one has asked you to put your money with unproven schemes and whether you don't put your time with unproven golf ideas or not, that's your choice. But the way to achieve that is you ignoring and not reading posts that's irrelevant to you.

The only point of my argument is just let anyone say what he/she want to say. Whether what they say has any value to you, that's for you to decide and you can decide to spend your time reading it or ignore it.
Just because you think it's rubbish, you have no right to shut him up. There are big number of other users who can form their own opinion and judgement.
Even if other users can't form their own opinion and judgement, you don't have an obligation to look after them either.

Only thing that's apparent to me, someone joined the forum a couple of weeks ago and tried to bring up a discussion about the golf swing and many of us jumped on to say shut up unless you know what you talking about and prove yourself before you open your mouth. I don't know how you fail to see the arrogance and rudeness.

This thread is a perfect example of trolling, IMO. which is against the forum guidelines.

[Tank33]

Tank, it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion on the golf swing especially with normal golfers who rely on their atheticism and hand eye coordination to play the game. Most people play golf this way and most people find it extremely difficult to articulate how they do and what they do.
If it works more often than not, then it is a keeper.

Having a discussion and playing the game is two very different things. I believe playing the game at a level you want to play is difficult. But I don't know why having a meaningful discussion has to be difficult.
It's difficult because you refuse to even have one unless the participants are either a golf pro, bio-mechanic specialist, TGM instructor, or whatever you believe good enough.

Personally, I don't really understand what you said when you said "in my swing it is retaining the supination of the left forearm and a flexed left wrist in ulnar deviation past impact and not relaxing the wrists and arms"
but I didn't come up with a question like what's your handicap? or don't post that stuff coz I am doing my head in.

No one has asked to fix their golf swing in this thread or teach anyone what release is.
We just had a few posts about what each person believed what it is.

My only point is unless we can LET people SAY what they THINK, how can we have a discussion? And because you believe it's difficult, is it better not to have one? Is that your point? Why does this forum exist if it is so difficult to have a discussion?

I thought the existence of a FORUM is to have a place to have a DISCUSSION.

I think I said more than enough on this issue and since I don't have a simplest clue about what the release is, I will also shut up in this thread.

[backintheswing]

I haven't been here for too long but long enough to figure out you are not welcomed if you post anything meaningful in more than a few lines.

You are VERY welcomed if you jump to buy stuff from the Proshop.

Ozgolf (so called forum) isn't anything like GolfWRX but more like Gumtree 4 golf.

You are criticizing the forum and the proshop etc, calling us Gumtree 4 golf, yet 14 of the 25 threads you gave started are in the pro-shop, with most of the others in the equipment section:neutral:

[talbo]

I think I said more than enough on this issue and since I don't have a simplest clue about what the release is, I will also shut up in this thread.[/COLOR]

Have you ever hit a golf ball, thrown a ball, cast a fishing line?

If you've done any of these thing then you know what release is.

[Tank33]

You are criticizing the forum and the proshop etc, calling us Gumtree 4 golf, yet 14 of the 25 threads you gave started are in the pro-shop, with most of the others in the equipment section:neutral:

Don't get me wrong, I was criticising the forum because its best feature is the proshop but NOTHING ELSE. The proshop is something we can all be proud of and benefit from. There is no place like ours in other Australian golf forums. Why would I criticise something good?

I was criticising the forum because of its failure to provide newish users with welcoming environment to post and to nurture a discussion due to actions of us (the users).
See how sad it is to get attacked personally when I put my hearts out there saying we can all improve this place to be better. It was never meant to be YOU vs ME. It was about US!
Anyway, maybe it's time I stop caring about the site and go back to lurking and hoing only mode.

You guys are hardly good at bring up a good discussion but excel at shutting others up.
VERY VERY HEALTHY FOR THE FORUM!

[razaar]

Have you ever hit a golf ball, thrown a ball, cast a fishing line?

If you've done any of these thing then you know what release is.I think everybody who plays golf knows what a release is. What they don't know is how many different releases there are and their causes. Most don't want to know but on the other hand want to be more consistent. Virge mentioned either in the thread on the importance of the release because it is this inch in the swing where the ball compresses on the clubface and rebounds towards the target or somewhere else.
There are plenty of ultra slow motion videos on the TV and on the internet of tour pros swings at the bottom through impact showing a stable club head through impact and beyond with what appears to be very little rotation of the clubface through impact.
Tank, my words you quoted about the release is what I feel to stabilize the club head through the ball and beyond.

[Dotty]

I think you are missing the point. If you have to know users' credentials before you READ their posts, what are you doing reading and replying to my posts. You don't know my credentials.

That's the difference between being cautious and being gullible.

There is the reason that the phone scammers, Nigerian royalty letters and phishing schemes have not died out. Enough punters keep falling for them.

Luckily, I didn't challenge Mr NeverBroke100 to a game.

[yoyo]

Well i'm relatively new and feel about as welcome as one might expect to. No dramas really.

But if anyone would like to make it sporting then be my guest ...... ;-)

[live4golf]

Well i'm relatively new and feel about as welcome as one might expect to. No dramas really.But if anyone would like to make it sporting then be my guest ...... ;-) You are a smelly pirate hooker.

[yoyo]

It was pretty obvious to me straight up that he was being facetious about never hsving broke 100. He was making a point within a point, it seemed to get lost on a few......?

[yoyo]

You are a smelly pirate hooker. I didnt realise we'd met before

[live4golf]

I didnt realise we'd met before Better? :-P

[BenM]

I feel like it's a shame Mike left. I'm not going to buy his book but his posts had more substance than many and it cost me nothing to read them.

No problem with questioning people but really it should be done in such a way as to not sound like you're attacking them.

For what it's worth I didn't understand some of what he said but that's nothing new. I don't understand half of what razaar says about the golf swing either. Doesn't mean it's not worth reading.

[yoyo]

I think Mike was/is a bit sensitive to be honest.....

[PeteyD]

Not sure why he left. Virge and Razaar were engaging him in some interesting stuff. Pity.

[Peppas]

I'm never going to learn what is release, now that he is gone :(

[yoyo]

Pepps i will send you some links to websites that will help you with release ;-)

[Peppas]

Pepps i will send you some links to websites that will help you with release ;-)

I like videos and sound if that helps :)

[yoyo]

Standard.

[virge666]

Have you ever hit a golf ball, thrown a ball, cast a fishing line?

If you've done any of these thing then you know what release is.

No - you haven't.


I think everybody who plays golf knows what a release is. What they don't know is how many different releases there are and their causes.


Ray - lets walk before we run...

[talbo]

No - you haven't.

...


Haven't what?

[razaar]

During a round of golf, an elite player will use different release methods to suit the type of shot he decides on. If the shot calls for a slice around an obstacle the release pattern will be different to a hook. A shot with a following wind will have a different release to a shot into a stiff head wind. High distance wedge shots have a different release to the low spinner. Bunker shots can require different releases depending on the lie.
In all releases the club head needs to have stability through the impact zone. I think it was Peltz who used the analogy of a pull buggy to explain club head stability. The buggy will stay stable when being pulled but is very unstable when being pushed. The reason being that the pushing force needs to be directly behind the pull buggy's centre of gravity to stabilize its forward motion.
The same principle applies to the release in a golf swing. If the left wrist is dormant during the release then the club head will be very unstable through the impact zone. As Hogan said in "Five lessons...." the left hand has to work as hard as the right through impact.

[PeteyD]

Can we start with 1 release?

[razaar]

Can we start with 1 release?OK, tell us what you do.

[PeteyD]

Swing it like a drunk octopus. I know I flip, trying to learn not to. Any advice appreciated, although should probably be in the flipping thread.

[Daves]

Swing it like a drunk octopus. I know I flip, trying to learn not to. Any advice appreciated, although should probably be in the flipping thread.

I have a Taly, if you want to borrow it?

http://www.taly.com/

Otherwise there are a few drills if you have the necessary gear. Either an old club with a extra shaft inserted to lengthen it to shoulder height, or an Coat Hanger as swing guide.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbYI35l_-_E

[PeteyD]

Explain Taly to me, without the marketing BS.

[talbo]

Swing it like a drunk octopus. I know I flip, trying to learn not to. Any advice appreciated, although should probably be in the flipping thread.

Have a look at the link to Monte's article on it in the flipping thread I posted.

[razaar]

Swing it like a drunk octopus. I know I flip, trying to learn not to. Any advice appreciated, although should probably be in the flipping thread.There would be probably be less than a handful of people on the forum who don't have some type of flip release. Those who don't flip have great body rotation with a rock like left leg through impact that allows their left forearm to stay ahead of the club shaft past impact. This places the low point in the forward swing 50 to 100 mm on the target side of the ball position. This release is referred to by some experts as a drive/hold release (drive the left forearm and hold the release) is what is being taught to our National squad players.

[PeteyD]

I guess it is more learning to flip less.

Just so I have the idea right, release is what is happening when the ball is being hit?

[razaar]

I guess it is more learning to flip less.

Just so I have the idea right, release is what is happening when the ball is being hit?The clubhead is releasing when the clubhead moves faster than the hands during the downswing. In a drive/holders downswing the clubhead and the hands stay at the same pace until about level with the trail leg when centrifugal force feeds from the arms into the shaft. It is the force of the body's rotation and left side resistance that delays the forearm and shaft forming a straight line until after impact. A flip is when the straight line of the forearm and shaft occurs before the ball rebounds off the clubface.

[Daves]

Explain Taly to me, without the marketing BS.

It basically provides a reference point for what you are doing with your hands in the swing. The Taly fits on your lead arm, just under the elbow. The red ball pointer basically points at the ball at address position and any flipping or breaking of the firm lead wrist is pretty obvious to you. The swing thought he promotes is pull push.

http://3jack.blogspot.com.au/2009/05/taly-training-aid-review.html

[Daves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JalAVnzZBoY

[benno_r]

A flip is when the straight line of the forearm and shaft occurs before the ball rebounds off the clubface.

Haven't heard it put like that before, thanks!

[talbo]

when the straight line of the forearm and shaft occurs before the ball rebounds off the clubface.

Can this not also be caused by casting from the top?

[PeteyD]

Yep, sure can. Flipperating.

[razaar]

Can this not also be caused by casting from the top?That description can mean lots of things. What does it mean to you? It is somewhat of a trick question because there are players who have a cast of sorts at the top of the backswing which involves a clockwise rotation of the right forearm during transition.

[talbo]

Casting? To me casting is early release

[razaar]

To some people casting can mean a late release. An example would be beach sports fishing with a long heavy rod where the bait has to be cast a fair distance to clear the breakers.
What I was after was using the hands (consciously or unconsciously) to speed up the clubhead = early release.

[talbo]

It's a little simpler than that IMO

[Mike O]

i like simple talbo - please explain how it is simpler. i'm sure you can keep the reply to a couple of sentences. Also i would like to know your handicap.

[Yossarian]

Release is what you give to Rielev in Baldur's Gate 2.

[kiwitown]

Casting to me is, when you start your downswing the arms are moving outwards away from the body instead of dropping down along the target line?

[davepuppies]

I have never gotten too into the technical side of the swing, really have only thought about path and club face angle, but my thoughts on a proper release is semi straight arm at impact, and the left hand square to target, achieved through turning the body, not hands.

A flip being the rotation of hands through impact with no body turn.

I am not a golfers a$& hole, best recent handicap being 2, average 6-8.

I think golf can get way too technical, but appreciate that some guys like to deconstruct it to all of its smallest moving pieces....... I get lost and loose enjoyment if I do that........

[razaar]

Casting to me is, when you start your downswing the arms are moving outwards away from the body instead of dropping down along the target line?How about Tour player Brendon deJonge who takes it back inside and loops it outside on the downswing. There are players who do this without casting. But we know what you mean - the hands are moving slower than the clubhead early in the downswing and the wrists are unhinging. Release of the clubhead begins when the wrists start to unhinge. Golf being a perverse game, there are a variety of shots that require an early release of the clubhead, mostly inside 100 metres.