Heavy and Hefty

[Daves]

No, this isn't another Fat Bastards thread!, this one is about club weight and heft/feel (swingweight).

Contrary to the popularity of lighter clubs, I have gone the other way and I am finding it is agreeing with my swing a lot. Historically I was playing my irons 1/2 to 3/4" over standard (193cm), but I have snuck this out to 1 and 1/4" over recently. The shafts I have been using were around the 95 to 105 grams level, but recent purchases have come with R300s, and the additional 15/20 grams seems to be agreeing with me also. Net result is I am playing with irons that are around 20 grams or so heavier, with SWs of between D6 and D8, and I haven't hit the ball better. I seem to be finding somewhere near the centre of the club face a lot more often, and my ball striking has improved accordingly. This is even though I have moved to more player type irons, with much lower forgiveness.

The trigger for the experiment was a set of lightweight clubs, X Hot irons with the 65gram graphite shafts. I picked up a set of these earlier in the year and simply could not hit them. I seemed to have no idea where the club face was. I knew it wasn't the clubs per se, but after a discussion with a club maker friend decided to go the other way, hence the Heavy and Hefty.

Next step is to try a set of R400s, and then perhaps some back weighting. I would also love to have an MOI Analyser!, perhaps a Christmas present for myself!:roll:;)

[mrbluu]

Nice work Dave, I like that u are inventing new reasons to buy stuff :D!!!

I've gone slightly heavier in my recent set of Rocketbladz Tours which SW at D4 from my AP2's which were between D0-D1. Not sure if its the SW that has helped or the shafts or the whole combo but I'm really liking them!!!

Liptout should be here soon, he loves SW's!!!!

[Coldtopper]

8)

[Coldtopper]

I dont mind a little heft! Is it an age thing the older you get the heavier you like it? Ive got similar although using x100 ssx2 1 over to add more weight playing d5 in my irons.

[Forecaddie]

I concour Daves- Somewhere I posted the same thoughts- possibly on the Tourspec forum. Anyway, you see the preaching about lighter clubs for "increased distance and ball speed", but beleive you get your body into the swing, and not your arms when the clubs are heavier. Now, we see marketing for steel fibers and nunchuck for graphite, with touring players "branding" them. However, as touring players, they already know how to use their body for power. I also want to try back weighted grips or heavier grips. I play mid-sized now for the weight.

[talbo]

My AP2 set with Recoil Protos have SWs ranging from D2.5 for the 4 iron through to D5.5 in the PW. They feel great and I beleive I'm hitting the short irons much better than before (when I get weight to the target side!).

[oldracer]

My new MB001's will be shafted with recoil 110's and sw d5, same as my existing 501's with Nippon 1050 X, I'm 58 and love my sticks and their current results, I give it a crack but don't swing my nuts off but love the weight transfer with a heavier SW

[Daves]

Another half dozen or so rounds under my belt with different iron/shaft combos in rotation and I would say at this stage that heft is a more important factor than absolute weight. The combination of length and heft in itself adds to the absolute weight, so each club/shaft combo is relatively heavy compared to standard clubs. But the combo seems to be working with shafts weights ranging from 95g (i95s) to 125g (R300s), so absolute weight variances of up to 30 grams still work. In fact my best scoring round of the year was played with the i95s (714 CBs) . I still wasn't quite fully happy with the feel of this combo, but I can't argue with the result!

Some sets of R400s on the way to test the weight variables a bit further.

I should also mention that one set has a set of R300 HLs in them (Nike VR Combo) and I am loving the ball flight. All the advantages of a high ball flight without any of the more common consequences e.g; ballooning, lost distance etc. In fact these clubs seem to be about half a club longer (and no it isn't the lofts), and pretty good into the wind. Hard to find these shafts though, not sure if TT are still making them?

[Hatchman]

Keep the testing a results coming Daves. I'm finding your observations and results very interesting

With my own game speeding South this year it had me thinking more about times where I was striking the ball better. I kept coming back to times and clubs where the iron heads felt heavier and I had the feeling I could feel the head more.
Recently I've put a ADDI 7s in the Jetspeed in place of a 6s. Dispersion results have been better and this had lead to more frustration with my game due to missing greens from many hit fairways :cry:.
Currently wanting to step it up and go heavier again so on the lookout for a ADDI 8s or BB 7s or 8s, Matrix 8Q3 when the funds improve. Also considering a Aldila VS Proto 80 as a cheaper alternative.

[razaar]

Dave
Wouldn't 95 gm steel shafts be considered a light shaft?

[Daves]

Dave
Wouldn't 95 gm steel shafts be considered a light shaft?

Hi Ray, the i95s are actually Steelfibre graphite/steels, but yes at the lighter end of the scale. The original post was about club sets mostly installed with R300s, extended to 1 & 1/4" over standard length, swing at D6 to D8. I have since tried a set of Titleist 714 CBs with the Steelfibres in them, extended to 1 & 1/4" over and D6 to D8 SW. Whilst the "feel" wasn't quite there, the results were pretty good. So I am speculating that Heft is more important than absolute club weight in the equation. I would love to have an MOI Analyser to compare the set ups. I will do a weight and SW comparison chart up and post it when I get a chance.

[razaar]

Got ya Dave.

[Scifisicko]

I remember how well tiger used to hit the 975D with x100....maybe the extra weight had something to do with it.
Brad Hughes is an evangelist for heavy clubs.

[3oneday]

Never thought I'd see the word evangelist used on this golf forum :)

[aym]

Would it be same to add weight to the head rather than the shaft?

[BUSHY]

I remember how well tiger used to hit the 975D with x100....maybe the extra weight had something to do with it.
Brad Hughes is an evangelist for heavy clubs.

And at last year's World Challenge he went back to the 93 Blueboard in the driver and 103 in the fairways woods, same as he's rocking this week. I'd like to see what swing weight he uses in his irons.

I completely agree with the idea of heft. One of the biggest things that I got out of my professional fitting was heavier swing weights. Transformed my iron play I think, probably why I hated the Nippons that originally came in the Covert Forged.

[mrbluu]

Never thought I'd see the word evangelist used on this golf forum :) What does it mean???

[3oneday]

No idea, I'm a heathen mostly. Ask Blakey.

[Daves]

Would it be same to add weight to the head rather than the shaft?

Adding weight to the head has more impact than adding weight to the shaft;

http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf

Some shafts also have a level of counterweighting in their design.

[razaar]

There is a reason why club makers recommend D1-3 sw. Since the mid 1980's clubheads were made lighter to receive lighter (graphite initially) and longer shafts. It was found that the majority of players got more consistent results with clubs in the low D swingweight. Swingweight being a term to describe the balance of the overall club. The higher the SW the more the balance point shifts towards the club head; and towards the handle for a lower SW. The right SW for a player allows him to feel where the club head is throughout the swing and still feel the weight of the club. In a correct action the shaft is quite vertical during the upswing making the club feel light. Players who have the shaft more vertical than horizontal at the top probably would benefit from a heavier shaft to compress the wrists during the downswing. The club should stay at the top until it is moved down by the left hip pulling on the arms. If the club is too light it makes this task more difficult for most of us.

[Johnny Canuck]

Who is Hoges?

[Daves]

Who is Hoges?

Which post JC? I couldn't find the reference?

Adams MB2 with DG SL300s 3-pw, and Adams A12 Pro Forged KBS tours 3 - 9i have now been lengthened and gripped to my specs and are into the rotation. MB2 hopefully get their first trial tomorrow. I have reads some good things about the "feel" of these irons.

[BUSHY]

I've been looking for this video but it's right at the end what I am pointing out.

http://youtu.be/URXeFEpxCZ8

Steve Elkington has a three wood that swing weights at E0.5. It's part of a series of 7 or 8 videos getting stuff built which I found interesting. I know he likes "hammer head" feel and I'd seen it before, just had to find it.

[Forecaddie]

Great video- Thanks for posting. I've been going in that direction for the last 3 months. Now just want to look at counter weighted grips.

[Forecaddie]

I just swapped out a hybrid graphite stiff shaft for a steel 2 iron stiff shaft. Total weight was 376g C7 swing weight. Now, 400g D8 swing weight. Will see how it goes this weekend. Wished I had 10K to spend on my personal Trackman or GC2. Oh well, the true test is to see the ball flight.

[Daves]

Interesting that Srixon's new Drivers comes standard at D5 SW (45").

[Forecaddie]

Great article on WRX website on shaft weights. http://www.golfwrx.com/266973/study-do-lighter-shafts-increase-clubhead-speed/

[Captain Nemo]

Great article on WRX website on shaft weights. http://www.golfwrx.com/266973/study-do-lighter-shafts-increase-clubhead-speed/

Just read that, very relevant to this thread, cheers.

[Hatchman]

Recently glued up a UST Axivcore Tour Black 89s with a SLDR tip I bought 2 years ago.
Was looking forward to getting this out for a hit today but had to cancel due to still being too crook.
Swing weight, total weight and playing length in two different driver heads listed below.

SLDR 460: UST Axivcore Tour Black 89s_D8_340g_45"
Jetspeed: UST Axivcore Tour Black 89s_D3_330g_45"

SLDR 460 head weight 202g
Jetspeed head weight 193g

[Hatchman]

Very promising results with the heft of the 89s UST Axivcore Tour Black in the Jetspeed on the weekend.

A few other posters have reported good results with heavier shafts lately too.

[Johnny Canuck]

Very promising results with the heft of the 89s UST Axivcore Tour Black in the Jetspeed on the weekend.

A few other posters have reported good results with heavier shafts lately too.

I play a v2 76x and love it. 89 is pretty heavy. Would be curious to try.

[Hatchman]

I play a v2 76x and love it. 89 is pretty heavy. Would be curious to try.

It's a heavy beast in my SLDR with a swing weight of D8. I haven't hit it yet to see how it performs that heavy.
In the Jetspeed it swing weights at D3.
Might be able to send it over to you for a test if/when I can finally get hold of ADBB 7 or 8 at a good price and right length for Driver at 45".

[Daves]

Just pulled the trigger on a Nike VR Pro with an 83g Diamana. Looking forward to trying it.

[Hatchman]

Gamed the very hefty D8sw Axivcore Tour Black in the SLDR @ 9.5 today.
I thought it was good in the Jetspeed but it's even better in SLDR :D

Really liked the heavier weight. Much less prone to throwing it from the top and felt easier to drop it in the slot on the down swing. Looking forward to more games with this.

D8 is great :D

About to swap the Light weight Illma 61 out of the 910F 3wood and put in a ADDI 7s and put that back in the bag after 8 months of being banished.

[Hatchman]

For no good reason other than the quest for is there a better combo with my bits and pieces I went away from the hefty D8sw SLDR 460 UST Axivcore Tour Black 89s.
After some of the worst driving in 3 years I've gamed recently I went back to the hefty SLDR. This combo has seen a much over due and welcome return to finding the short stuff and keeping the ball in play again.

While on the heavy I've also went back to my AP2 712's a month ago after gaming a few retro blades for a number of months. With the AP2's I can really feel the weight in the heads and I do like that feel a lot.

[Forecaddie]

What retro blades were you playing?

[Hatchman]

What retro blades were you playing?

Cobra Tour Model II and Cobra Mild Steels both in pic below. Mild Steel is on LHS

35885

I also have some Titleist Tour Models from mid 80's but haven't gamed them.

[Forecaddie]

Nice!

[Daves]

One of the learnings so far in building irons heavy and hefty, is that not all shafts build the same. There are non counter balanced shafts; DGs being the most common, and then there are counter balanced shafts, being most of the rest KBS, PX, Nippon etc. The DGs build significantly heavier, as much as 6/8 swing weights heftier. I have found that in building my irons 1 & 1/2" over, I have to back-weight the DG sets to get the SWs down to sensible levels. With the counter balanced shafts this has seldom been necessary.

The back weighting experience could come in handy. I am now going to explore building a set MOI matched. This will involve some work on the 4I and PW to fine tune their heft to optimum. I am then going to use the Tutelman method to build the set to match them. Hopefully this will be simpler than it sounds, because I think some of my sets are already not all that far out, and most of my sets have a gradual increase in SW as the loft increases i.e. PW is heftiest, the 4I the (s)lightest. The 4i fine turning will be the challenge I think.

[Forecaddie]

So are you swing weighting 1.3 per inch? Or do you have a MOI machine? Also, if you have a frequency machine, can you post your finished CPMs? I would like to see the frequency curve.

[Daves]

So are you swing weighting 1.3 per inch? Or do you have a MOI machine? Also, if you have a frequency machine, can you post your finished CPMs? I would like to see the frequency curve.

No MOI analyser yet ( hopefully later in the year) , so will use the 1.3 per inch method initially. Can do the CPMs, but at what length do you want me to measure them? Built length or at standard length? grip on or off?

[Forecaddie]

Built length. Then I'll plot the numbers to see if there is a curve or straight line.

[Daves]

Some interesting articles on counter balancing/back weighting;

Tutelman's take on backweighting;

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt5.php#Backweighting

A link for a PDF from the Club Makers Assoc. on Counter Balancing, including testing for potential benefits;
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=84460

[Forecaddie]

No MOI analyser yet ( hopefully later in the year) , so will use the 1.3 per inch method initially. Can do the CPMs, but at what length do you want me to measure them? Built length or at standard length? grip on or off?
Do you have CPMs yet?

[Daves]

Do you have CPMs yet?

Not yet sorry, have been busy with other things.

[perci]

I concur about Heavy and Hefty Dave, my current Irons play 1.5" over and weigh in at E2, just so easy to let the Club do the Work!

[Hatchman]

I concur about Heavy and Hefty Dave, my current Irons play 1.5" over and weigh in at E2, just so easy to let the Club do the Work!

That's one heavy biach @ E2.

[Daves]

Good to hear it is working for your Mike. I am busting to get a MOI Analyser and get a better feel for the builds. At the moment I am mostly just building them to +1.5", and back-weighting where the shafts aren't counter balanced. It seems to have improved my ball striking, but it is hard to quantify. Changing clubs every round probably ain't helping!:roll: :wink:But it is a lot of fun!:D

[Daves]

That's one heavy biach @ E2.

The beauty of heavily weight clubs for me is they soon tell me when they are too heavy. I tend to start catching them out of the toe, I find.

[perci]

That's one heavy biach @ E2.

You could say they are Crazy heavy!

[Daves]

The absolute facts about swing weight What it is, why it is important and why it can be confusing
By Tom Wishon (http://www.golfwrx.com/author/tomwishon/) -
- Aug 12, 2015

http://www.golfwrx.com/320652/the-absolute-facts-about-swing-weight/

[3Puttpete]

The absolute facts about swing weight What it is, why it is important and why it can be confusing
By Tom Wishon (http://www.golfwrx.com/author/tomwishon/) -
- Aug 12, 2015

http://www.golfwrx.com/320652/the-absolute-facts-about-swing-weight/

If I've understood that properly Wishon says swingweight is simply something that's nice to know AFTER correct fitting and building and has little to no relevance prior to this point.

[Daves]

If I've understood that properly Wishon says swingweight is simply something that's nice to know AFTER correct fitting and building and has little to no relevance prior to this point.

Sort of. If they have been fitted/built for you, the clubmaker should factor in the desired SW/MOI for you when building the clubs. If it is an existing set, then you may need to experiment with 1 or 2 clubs to get the feel right, note the SW/MOI and then alter the rest of the set accordingly.

[Daves]

A bit of an experiment coming up. I have acquired a set of Cobra S3 Max ïrons with UST 60 gram "Lite' shafts. I have extend them to play +1.5", which brings them up to around D4 to D7 SW. This will hopefully give me a guide as to whether Hefty is more important that Heavy in the equation. Logic says no, with my quickish tempo and transition, Heavy should play a role, but we will see how it pans out.

[razaar]

A bit of an experiment coming up. I have acquired a set of Cobra S3 Max ïrons with UST 60 gram "Lite' shafts. I have extend them to play +1.5", which brings them up to around D4 to D7 SW. This will hopefully give me a guide as to whether Hefty is more important that Heavy in the equation. Logic says no, with my quickish tempo and transition, Heavy should play a role, but we will see how it pans out.Logic would suggest some counter weighting is required. Lead tape wrapped around the shaft just below the grip should do the trick to find the right balance.

[Daves]

Logic would suggest some counter weighting is required. Lead tape wrapped around the shaft just below the grip should do the trick to find the right balance.

Not on these Ray, + 1.5" and D4 to D7 is about my fit it seems. All my other sets are steel shafts, these are the only graphites. I do counter balance some sets, but usually only the non counter balanced shafts like DGs that seem to SW much higher (usually in to the Es without Counter Balancing). I have lead weights that fit in the butt end to do this;

http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_CWC

(http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_CWC)

[Hutchy]

Sort of. If they have been fitted/built for you, the clubmaker should factor in the desired SW/MOI for you when building the clubs. If it is an existing set, then you may need to experiment with 1 or 2 clubs to get the feel right, note the SW/MOI and then alter the rest of the set accordingly.

Just Did this with the P1 heads, usually play stiff with higher SW, but with the slightly lighter heads tried R flex first then went with lower weight higher Torque stiff. SW vs Flex was a fine balance and achieved nicely with the SPR, feel and action is perfect. Pair that with the slightly higher launch of the reds and direct flight of the blades and they perform like player half muscle with the purity of a blade.

Love the experimenting and getting it right, probably my best build and most satisfying to date.

[Daves]

A bit of an experiment coming up. I have acquired a set of Cobra S3 Max ïrons with UST 60 gram "Lite' shafts. I have extend them to play +1.5", which brings them up to around D4 to D7 SW. This will hopefully give me a guide as to whether Hefty is more important that Heavy in the equation. Logic says no, with my quickish tempo and transition, Heavy should play a role, but we will see how it pans out.

Took these for a hit during a practice round this afternoon, and the results were pretty much as forecast. With my normal swing I couldn't hit them straight to save myself, they just want to go left and spin like crazy. I kept trying and they kept ballooning and fading. It was only when I slowed my swing tempo right down, that they came out anywhere near where I aimed.

[Forecaddie]

Switching from 65g S driver shaft to either PROFORCE AXIVCORE Black 89 or UST V2 77 Gram. the V2 has 1.7 torque low launch and the Axvicore is counter balance and has a higher launch. Virge was right. I also like the V2 in my 3Wood. I'll report back later.

[Hatchman]

The 89s Axivcore Tour Black has been the best shaft I've put in my SLDR.

[Forecaddie]

Switching from 65g S driver shaft to either PROFORCE AXIVCORE Black 89 or UST V2 77 Gram. the V2 has 1.7 torque low launch and the Axvicore is counter balance and has a higher launch. Virge was right. I also like the V2 in my 3Wood. I'll report back later.
I am playing R11. I might see how it goes in my 3 wood too. Thanks.

[virge666]

The axiv shafts are fantastic. Wish they kept making them. Counter balancing in drivers should be mandatory

[Hatchman]

The Callaway S2H2's I'm currently gluing up are big fatties.
Have just completed the 3 & 4 and both weight in at E2 ��

Shafts are DG Black Gold's
2 layers of tape under Grip
Mid Size Golf Pride Tour Velvet Grips
Bore through plug.

I like them heavy, looking forward to seeing how these go.

[Hatchman]

Finished the whole set. All weighting in @ E1-E2

[Hatchman]

Took the fat S2H2's out today to make sure all the heads never come off (first set of bore through's built). None come off.

Wow is one word I could use. Dropped a heap of balls from different lengths to use them all.
Flushed a heap off balls through the green before I started taking one less.

[Hatchman]

Srixon have boarded the hefty train.
I wonder if this will be the start of others following?
http://srixon.com.au/clubs/z-355-driver/

[Daves]

Do you have CPMs yet?

Sorry, this has taken me a while!. I was hoping to pick up an MOI Analyser and do this properly. But the dollar hasn't been friendly, and Golfsmiths have been unhelpful. I recently picked up a set of Ping S56s with CFT Distance shafts (stiff), and needed to back weight them to get the SW right, after lenghtening them to my + 1.5" playing length. A little bit of smoke and mirrors in conventional building terms, but the extra butt weight seems to work for me. I assume the CFTS are constant weight shafts?, as I had to add a fair bit of weight.

Any ways, after the initial build, which was done somewhat quick and dirty, I went back and re-weighted them based on the 1.3 Swing Weights per inch approach. My scales aren't digital, so it isn't super accurate, but it is pretty close I reckon.

Just ran the set through the Auditor, grips on and clamped at full length. Results as follows;



4i
5i
6i
7i
8i
9i
PW


275
281
283
288
290
295
298




http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf stuff/S56 CPMs_zpsymo5y2pv.jpg (http://s603.photobucket.com/user/Daves_2009/media/Golf stuff/S56 CPMs_zpsymo5y2pv.jpg.html)

[Hatchman]

Dave, do you extend all your clubs +1.5" to help get the swing weight up or is it just an added bonus when re-setting them to the length you like? You must have a large stock of extenders. Where's the best place at a good price to get them from?
I'm seriously toying with the idea of re-shafting my S200 DG 712 AP2's with either Modus3 (not sure which weight) or KBS (not sure if Tour or C-Taper) but want to extend the playing length by at lest an inch at the same time as the extra length and swing weight has gone so well in the Callaway S2H2's I did recently. I figured the best way was to buy the shafts as std and just add extenders or am of way off here.

[Daves]

Dave, do you extend all your clubs +1.5" to help get the swing weight up or is it just an added bonus when re-setting them to the length you like? You must have a large stock of extenders. Where's the best place at a good price to get them from?
I'm seriously toying with the idea of re-shafting my S200 DG 712 AP2's with either Modus3 (not sure which weight) or KBS (not sure if Tour or C-Taper) but want to extend the playing length by at lest an inch at the same time as the extra length and swing weight has gone so well in the Callaway S2H2's I did recently. I figured the best way was to buy the shafts as std and just add extenders or am of way off here.

The 1.5" is about playing length, the extra heft is a bonus. I was originally fitted many years ago at +1/2" and played that for years. I sort of stumbled onto the fact that my ball striking was much better at +1.5"

I buy most of my extensions from Golfworks, they do good regular specials. Just put in an order on the weekend in fact.

A few ways to get to the extra length;

1) new shafts obviously, enables you to build to the desired SW at the same time.
2) Buy and install used shafts, an 1" or more over std.
3) Steel Extensions are good for anything under 2" extra
4) Soft stepping shafts. In your case, to get an extra inch, you could soft step twice (3i into 5i, etc) or buy shafts that are 1.2" over to start with. Ex soft step is roughly equivalent to a 1/3 flex variance. I find that longer shafts are softer in any case, probably by a comparable factor.

An extra inch typically adds about 6 SWs. Counter balanced shafts tend show less of an increase in my experience, Constant weight shafts like Dynamic Gold will show the full 6 SWs.

I back weight my clubs, as previously mentioned. Works for me, but many don't find any benefit. The general view is it is cheating the SW scale, and weight at the grip end has no real effect. There is some evidence though, that a heavy butt end in your hands suits some golfers. See my previous posts.

[Daves]

Latest iron experimenting is suggesting I could possibly go even longer and heftier than my current builds. Currently playing a set of CB3s with Program 8.1s built about 2" over standard iron length. SW is mid/high Ds through to low Es. Not sure on the total weight comparative?, that may be a overall limiting factor? I am not sure?

I have previously favored heavy shafts, so the relatively lighter Programs have been a pleasant surprise so far. I am striking these consistently, and distance control is also very good.

Interestingly, the MOI of these irons are in relatively tight grouping, only a gram here and there needed to get them to match.

More measuring, comparatives and tinkering to come I think.