Sydney Pro wanted - stack and tilt

[3oneday]

Sick of dipping, once I start I can't stop.

A bit of research indicates that S & T might be a savior of sorts. Having just practiced some google examples in my net, getting my left shoulder below my right and progressively transferring weight to the left side during the swing, maybe it could be something to try for a while.

Does anyone teach this in Sydney?

[jimandr]

3

I dare say the silence in response to your request suggests that either nobody knows, or nobody does it (more likely).

I did some googling, as I once had a passing interest in S&T for a similar reason. I imagine your research threw up a thread on ISG which revealed a guy teaching at Terrey Hills Driving Range (the dart was his user name) back in 2009.

My other clicking showed me a lot of interest back in 08, and a lot of impassioned defence of the concept by believers, but the whole debate seems to disappear by 2010.

The whole thing was way too technical for me.

I presume you have already dismissed the idea of having a normal lesson.

Just buy a new driver. Isn't that what you normally do?

[petethepilot]

Stack and tilt can work (at least for a while) if you are flexible with a strong core.
I really don't know any amateurs who have made it work over an extended period 3.

Good luck on your search.

[gazgolf1]

Pretty sure Charlie Wi was the only Tour player left that was stack and tilting, not sure if he still is, Brad Faxon tried it for a while too.

[shhhhank]

Gary Edwin teaches a very similar concept to S&T and has a couple of guys down in Sydney, might be worth looking into.

http://www.garyedwin.com/coaches/australia/sydney/

[3oneday]

3

I dare say the silence in response to your request suggests that either nobody knows, or nobody does it (more likely).

I did some googling, as I once had a passing interest in S&T for a similar reason. I imagine your research threw up a thread on ISG which revealed a guy teaching at Terrey Hills Driving Range (the dart was his user name) back in 2009.

My other clicking showed me a lot of interest back in 08, and a lot of impassioned defence of the concept by believers, but the whole debate seems to disappear by 2010.

The whole thing was way too technical for me.

I presume you have already dismissed the idea of having a normal lesson.

Just buy a new driver. Isn't that what you normally do?it was something I looked at years ago, and never got it. I remember Jarro kept saying he was going to do it, not sure he ever did.

To answer your question? I had a series of lessons earlier this year that made me hit even further behind it, the guy wanted to change so much that he told me not to play for 3 months! I think I had a game with Kristian during that stage, it was abysmal.

Anyway, thanks to others for the link to Gary Edwin, I feel I have found some simpler explanations now than what was about years ago. I'll give it a whirl the next couple of weeks and consider a lesson after that. I find a lot of pros try to change things to suit themselves, rather than the student.

The most interesting thing will be hitting driver, not sure how high an 8.5 degree driver will go taking a divot after the ball :)

[Coldtopper]

3OD your action is fine. Go and see a good pro like a Gary Barter or someone of his standing. Dont ~@#$ around with the Roy McAvoys of the world. Golf is hard enough with out some tour school reject guru's teachings.

[JADO75]

What's wrong with Tin Cup? He's a gun, parred the back nine with a 7 iron

[Coldtopper]

What's wrong with Tin Cup? He's a gun, parred the back nine with a 7 iron Shooter McGavin wannabe pros teaching guru methods sounds great.
Roy was on fire back in his day!!

[backintheswing]

Love the cup

[PerryGroves]

3

I dare say the silence in response to your request suggests that either nobody knows, or nobody does it (more likely).

I did some googling, as I once had a passing interest in S&T for a similar reason. I imagine your research threw up a thread on ISG which revealed a guy teaching at Terrey Hills Driving Range (the dart was his user name) back in 2009.

My other clicking showed me a lot of interest back in 08, and a lot of impassioned defence of the concept by believers, but the whole debate seems to disappear by 2010.

The whole thing was way too technical for me.

I presume you have already dismissed the idea of having a normal lesson.

Just buy a new driver. Isn't that what you normally do?

The Dart is Paul Hart, a google search will find him. Dart and a few others were advocates of The Golf Machine a book by an engineer named Homer Kelly. I'm not far enough up the curve to know if it has any relevance to stack n tilt.

[Matt 3 Jab]

3, I'm pretty sure I have the 4 DVD set. More than happy to get a copy to you

[TheNuclearOne]

The Dart is Paul Hart, a google search will find him. Dart and a few others were advocates of The Golf Machine a book by an engineer named Homer Kelly. I'm not far enough up the curve to know if it has any relevance to stack n tilt.

He gets the concept across very quickly apparently. Be well worth a visit for 3.

[davidw88]

I tried it for a bit just going off what i read up on it on the net, ball striking was good with the irons but the woods were hard.

[mrbluu]

I was tilting after almost every shot today a d stacking up wipes and one pointers....does this count???

[Trento]

Gary Edwin teaches a very similar concept to S&T and has a couple of guys down in Sydney, might be worth looking in to.

This comment above is 100% horse shit
RSS has nothing to do with Stack and tilt

[3oneday]

Still experimenting without having a lesson, there is enough on the net to keep you going I reckon.

[TheNuclearOne]

There's LOADS on the net. The main problem people have is with the driver, but if you dig deep there's one or two top vids that address this. Much is in getting the hips forward and building in some decent tilt in the setup.

[Daves]

Shawn Clement has some of the best videos I think. He doesn't teach S & T, but there are some similarities;

http://golfshane.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/shawn-clement-braced-tilt.html

[3oneday]

I'd read about the driver issues too, right is the bad shot for sure, not just driver.

I'm excited to be honest, it's as stable as I've been ever.

[TheNuclearOne]

AoA is the drama with driver due to the nature of the beast, but they counter it to an extent with that axis tilt.

[TheNuclearOne]

Here's some awesome S&T driving video's -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXuikUmHeEQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss3dIo0bC6Y

[3oneday]

Yes, found that 2nd one. I think it's quite good.

[markTHEblake]

there is a gazillion young clones on the gold coast stack and tilting, they stick out like dogs balls.
I only know one who was any good - average height stocky bloke.(isnt this what the pilot said previous page)

I think its a great method if you are built like Peter Lonard.

[davepuppies]

Interesting.

I have never looked at this method before.

I am built with even more muscle and less flexibility than peter Lonard, and I have always struggled with my shoulders taking over, as I never have had enough flexibility, and my path has typically been over the top.

I might look further into this,mas most of the movements are close to what feels comfortable with my build,but I have not used due to traditional golf swing theory.

[3oneday]

Best contact I have had consistently for quite a while, even with driver. A few dodgy ones but I hit 10 greens and I haven't been hitting more than 6 or 7 recently.

[Jarro]

Best contact I have had consistently for quite a while, even with driver. A few dodgy ones but I hit 10 greens and I haven't been hitting more than 6 or 7 recently.

Cool :)

So what method did you try again ?

S&T or RSS ??

[virge666]

3OD your action is fine. Go and see a good pro like a Gary Barter or someone of his standing. Dont ~@#$ around with the Roy McAvoys of the world. Golf is hard enough with out some tour school reject guru's teachings.

^^^^^^

This.

[3oneday]

Cool :)

So what method did you try again ?

S&T or RSS ??I dunno Mark, maybe S & T. Aim at this stage is:

Weight 55% left at setup, at takeaway weight transfers forwards rather than back, left shoulder becomes lower than right, right leg straightens. At follow through, 90% weight on left side.


^^^^^^

This.Golf is about enjoyment, sure my action is fine, but unfortunately a few times a round the dip appears and ruins my day.

I also really don't see this as my action changing, moreso a simple gravitational move :)

This method seems to help rotation, and I found on Saturday that the ball was going seemingly further, even with my old 907 :)

[davepuppies]

I am going to give these principles a go.

Most of them feel very natural, whereas traditional swing theory feels very forced with my build.

Matt, if I could possibly get a copy of those DVDs you referred to?

[Captain Nemo]

Upon reading this (and watching the youtube vids) i have been inadvertently using a similar method.
When i was @ PPGL 2 weeks ago, after hitting balls etc... the fitter (Micheal Raseta) adjusted my setup/ball position.
He wanted me to tuck my rt bum cheek back and left, to square me up a little.
That forced me to put a touch more weight on my left side.
Swing started on a more inside path on the downswing...
I stuck with what he told me and went out and had 6 over last round i played...
Maybe i should go full retard and S&T?

[Matt 3 Jab]

I am going to give these principles a go.

Most of them feel very natural, whereas traditional swing theory feels very forced with my build.

Matt, if I could possibly get a copy of those DVDs you referred to?

Yep, not a worry at all. I'll find and get some out there. Might have a re visit to the S&T as well. Can't hit it worse than now

[benno_r]

Upon reading this (and watching the youtube vids) i have been inadvertently using a similar method.
When i was @ PPGL 2 weeks ago, after hitting balls etc... the fitter (Micheal Raseta) adjusted my setup/ball position.
He wanted me to tuck my rt bum cheek back and left, to square me up a little.
That forced me to put a touch more weight on my left side.
Swing started on a more inside path on the downswing...
I stuck with what he told me and went out and had 6 over last round i played...
Maybe i should go full retard and S&T?

Reminds me when I had my fitting with Will. Similar concepts and a bit more weight on the left side, and a rework of ball position.

For the first time in my life I consistently hitting from square or the inside.

Broke 80 for the first time, and handicap at an all time low. Plenty of good advice for choppers!

[virge666]

I dunno Mark, maybe S & T. Aim at this stage is:

This method seems to help rotation, and I found on Saturday that the ball was going seemingly further, even with my old 907 :)

If you are going to do it... then do it. Trying to incorporate bits of this and bits of that doesn't work.

I have only seen a very old swing of yours - and when I saw it I saw very fast hands and not much use of the upper body. If S&T help this out then go for it.

Otherwise - just get someone to sort out your upper body mechanics and less reliance on the hands to square up and you will be fine. You play off low singles... it cant be that bad.

[davepuppies]

I went to the range to try some of the principles, it's not for me.

I got too steep on the ball,(I already compress it a lot) and I hit lots of blocks.

In doing so I felt a old swing thought I used a lot when playing pennants a couple of years ago. Started flushing it. Happy days.

[virge666]

In doing so I felt a old swing thought I used a lot when playing pennants a couple of years ago. Started flushing it. Happy days.

Write this down.

[gazgolf1]

Here ya go Pete


http://www.golf.com/video/key-solid-iron-strikes

[3oneday]

Thanks Gaz :)

[shhhhank]

Gary Edwin teaches a very similar concept to S&T and has a couple of guys down in Sydney, might be worth looking in to.

This comment above is 100% horse shit
RSS has nothing to do with Stack and tilt

I know right, I mean it has a different name and everything! GE is my former coach, I have a fair idea of the concept. No, it's not identical but it's pretty freaking close.

[3oneday]

It took me ages (just now) to understand what that was about, ie the horse shit. The "no quotes" stuffed me.

What's the RSS, this makes me think everything is right side dominant, which really would be the opposite of what I want I'd think?

[Peppas]

In doing so I felt a old swing thought I used a lot when playing pennants a couple of years ago. Started flushing it. Happy days.

How much for the swing thought??

[shhhhank]

It took me ages (just now) to understand what that was about, ie the horse shit. The "no quotes" stuffed me.

What's the RSS, this makes me think everything is right side dominant, which really would be the opposite of what I want I'd think?

The name is a misnomer, there is no real dominance either side.

Basics are -

Start with weight on left side
Take hands back on inside path (starting to sound familiar?)
Weight distribution at top still favours left side with very little/no spine tilt
Hip bump to start down
Hips tuck through/after impact

Very upper body dominated swing like S&T, seems to favour heavy set guys. Tall skinny guys like myself have trouble creating enough speed with it. The main difference between the RSS and S&T patterns is that S&T allows for a greater turn on the backswing (facilitated by the straightening right leg). Both patterns produce primarily lowish push draws, S&T is the more powerful of the 2 though.

[3oneday]

Ok thanks, the rotation is something that probably gave me back some missing distance.

[virge666]

I know right, I mean it has a different name and everything! GE is my former coach, I have a fair idea of the concept. No, it's not identical but it's pretty freaking close.

No it is not close. No it is not similar.

the way the club comes out and around in GE is polar opposite to S&T, the low right shoulder, the squat on the downswing, all so very different to S&T.

Other than the setup looking similar... that is about it.

[3oneday]

Even better, probably why I chose s & t.

[shhhhank]

No it is not close. No it is not similar.

the way the club comes out and around in GE is polar opposite to S&T, the low right shoulder, the squat on the downswing, all so very different to S&T.

Other than the setup looking similar... that is about it.

We can agree to disagree but I worked with Gary for a number of years and I've done some S&T'ing when I was in the states. Extremely similar feels for me, and almost identical ball flight besides S&T being longer for me.

The setups are actually quite different, and along with the restricted turn of the RSS is probably the biggest difference between the 2 patterns. The RSS has the reverse K and S&T has much less (no) spine tilt.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/353244-rt-side-swing-and-stack-n-tilt-swing/

Billy has worked extensively with both patterns. Not a well written post admittedly but check out his videos on Youtube etc, he thinks they are pretty much identical.

[3oneday]

It's like Jono reincarnate, get some popcorn ready :)

[Captain Nemo]

Ill just make a cup of tea and grab some scotch fingers....
Ssssshank, give us some of your background.

[virge666]

Yeah, here we go...

Number 1. If you can honestly see a similarity between Gavin Coles and Charlie Wi other than they are holding the rubber end of the club, then there is not much i can do to help. Just look how steep Wi is into impact and the size of the divot compared to Gavin picking the ball off the turf to give you some idea that the club is coming from a very different set of mechanics.

But for those more technical...
S&T has a steep shoulder turn with a closed face and almost vertical shaft on the backswing. RRS is is neutral and coils the upper half strongly against the lower like a baseball swing.
S&T shifts weight to the left side on the back swing, RSS stays pretty balanced, but you do feel some pressure in the left foot, it aint a weight shift though.
S&T shifts the entire body left on the start of the downswing. RSS bumps or braces the left side so you have a solid left side to hit into, otherwise the RSS release wont work.
S&T is a rotation and a left side tilt back on the downswing, RSS is a squat.
S&T delivery of the club is from the inside, RSS uses the arms to keep the lag or "StoreUp" into the ball. RSS is more arms and the clubhead comes down, and around into impact. Hence S&T is steep and RSS is shallow.
S&T is one of the steepest actions out there, RSS is one of the shallowest. The divot direction and depth are totally different.
S&T keep shifting weight left on the downswing. Since the release is different - this doesn't happen. RSS the arms pull the body though impact
S&T uses the body to spring up and shallow out the impact, RSS just lets the body rotate through impact.
S&T has a shitload of shaft lean, RSS is much less.
S&T has a very different D-Plane to RSS
S&T has a totally diff follow though. RSS fold the left side through impact.

If you want comparisons, compare Foley to S&T, there you might have more to work with. But RSS and S&T are mutually exclusive patterns and trying to do this is not only pointless, but shows a lack of knowledge of one or both patterns. You may as well compare Trevino to Johnny Miller.

[3oneday]

S&T delivery of the club is from the inside
S&T is one of the steepest actions out there, RSS is one of the shallowest. The divot direction and depth are totally different.Just out of interest, how do these two go together, or are you talking about takeaway only when referring steep?

[backintheswing]

Pete, does stack and tilt, or whatever you are using, put any extra stress on your left knee?

[virge666]

Just out of interest, how do these two go together, or are you talking about takeaway only when referring steep?

Nice Q, hard one to do on a forum. S&T is very steep both up and down.

Looking down the line... S&T want a steep shoulder turn to allow you to get more upper body weight onto your left side. By steep , i mean the angle of your shoulders to the ground. The club shaft follows this angle with S&T.

On the downswing, you keep this steepness by rotating your left hip up and hard to the left, this rotation allows the left wrist to rotate into impact from the inside, this with the extra shift to the left traps the ball from a steep angle of attack and a tonne of shaft lean.

You will get a deep divot. even with a 3 wood.

[virge666]

Pete, does stack and tilt, or whatever you are using, put any extra stress on your left knee?

No, your hips are rotating and the left knee is just working up. You are tillting away from the ball whilst sliding left.

The clubhead comes from the inside and works up like a topspin forehand tennis shot.

[3oneday]

BITS, I haven't felt it yet, from what I have seen your feet are turned 1/4 which probably alleviates any of those sorts of issues.

I had a left knee meniscus op a few years ago and started turning the foot out then anyway. I have felt more pressure on the outside of the left foot though.

Mind you, this is only the second week and I've hardly hit balls this week due to some virus.

One thing that has surprised me though, I expected an 8.5 degree driver to be hard work with the left side loaded up, but it caused me no probs at all first up.

I also went to my net last night, first time since Satdy, and with no warmup timed it fine from the very first ball. This impressed me.