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BenM
26th July 2014, 05:26 PM
Following on from Benno's comments in another thread, I wanted to see how people feel about the current situation with this.

Currently the rules say that commercial selling is fine at the admin's discretion (or words to that effect).

I know that a small number people have complained (often in the wrong place) about one particular seller's sales. Firstly I want to ask, if that seller has been given permission to sell stuff here, what are the reasons people are upset about it? Please don't get personal - this is not a witch hunt. Also it's worth nothing that the number of happy customers of that seller far outnumber the complaints.

Secondly, if there is a real issue - and it needs to be shown that there is - how do we fix it? The way I see it we have two options, one is to ban commercial selling altogether, which is easy, but then people here will potentially miss out on some bloody good deals. The other is to allow commercial selling to specific users so long as they meet certain criteria. I have already made my own list of about 4 criteria that would need to be met, but I'd be interested to hear others thoughts on that too

Nb - no guarantees at all that this thread will change anything, but if there's definitely a problem we need to understand what it is before it can be fixed.

sms316
26th July 2014, 05:31 PM
One question.

Did OZgolf get a commission on sales?

Either way it gave the perception of a commercial agreement. One thing this site has always promoted was no ads. I guess that can be crossed off the list.

Open and transparent communication. It usually works best.

3Puttpete
26th July 2014, 05:37 PM
If someone wants to sell gear to ozgolfers for about 30% of retail prices if be disappointed if ozgolf didn't allow it.

BenM
26th July 2014, 05:38 PM
To the best of my knowledge no, OzGolf itself gets nothing. The reason commercial selling is allowed is that it benefits the members - mostly with discounted pricing (eg Birdieball vouchers etc).

We have discussed the idea of allowing commercial selling for a commercial payment. Most of the mods seem to be against that idea - mainly because we want to be impartial.

I agree with you about open and transparent communication - that's why I'm doing this. But when a decision is made, if people disagree with it they need to move on instead of continually griping about it. We will never please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

BenM
26th July 2014, 05:38 PM
If someone wants to sell gear to ozgolfers for about 30% of retail prices if be disappointed if ozgolf didn't allow it.

Exactly.

sms316
26th July 2014, 05:43 PM
To the best of my knowledge no, OzGolf itself gets nothing. The reason commercial selling is allowed is that it benefits the members - mostly with discounted pricing (eg Birdieball vouchers etc).We have discussed the idea of allowing commercial selling for a commercial payment. Most of the mods seem to be against that idea - mainly because we want to be impartial.I agree with you about open and transparent communication - that's why I'm doing this. But when a decision is made, if people disagree with it they need to move on instead of continually griping about it. We will never please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Ben - fair enough. I did find it somewhat amusing that the rules were stealthfully changed to accommodate old mate (again poor communication).

Captain Nemo
26th July 2014, 05:44 PM
I'm not against it, but a few $$$$ donated back to the site would be a fair thing to do.
I've done it myself over the years.

BenM
26th July 2014, 05:45 PM
Ben - fair enough. I did find it somewhat amusing that the rules were stealthfully changed to accommodate old mate (again poor communication).

If that's the case - that's not the way I would have done it - agreed it should've been better.

But moving forward from that - what is the issue with the rules/situation as they are now?

AndyP
26th July 2014, 05:48 PM
The rules were never changed.

sms316
26th July 2014, 05:49 PM
If that's the case - that's not the way I would have done it - agreed it should've been better.But moving forward from that - what is the issue with the rules/situation as they are now? Just be open and transparent.

sms316
26th July 2014, 05:50 PM
The rules were never changed. Well there you go. I apologise. I always thought commercial listings were no go.

AndyP
26th July 2014, 05:54 PM
No, they have always been considered on a "benefit to OZGolfers" basis.

Squizzy tried posting here once, but offered nothing more than standard prices, and as a result it wasn't allowed.

meh
26th July 2014, 08:50 PM
Who is the person selling commercially?(please pm if you don't want to name them)

Steve
26th July 2014, 09:03 PM
I do think it has got larger than the listing started, but is it commercial? Or is the problem, the quantity of product?

Lagerlover
26th July 2014, 09:17 PM
My beef was/is the sheer quantity. It started as supposedly his own clothes, and now resembles a full catalogue. Seller has own website as well, and good luck to him. I trust there's a bit of support that is given when charity requests are made.

But I'll leave it there as I can sense a bit of baiting...

Congrats on your new role Ben.

markTHEblake
26th July 2014, 10:05 PM
Who is the person selling commercially?(please pm if you don't want to name them) Beats me.I just has a look through the proshop and I can't see it

BenM
26th July 2014, 10:25 PM
My beef was/is the sheer quantity. It started as supposedly his own clothes, and now resembles a full catalogue. Seller has own website as well, and good luck to him. I trust there's a bit of support that is given when charity requests are made.

But I'll leave it there as I can sense a bit of baiting...

Congrats on your new role Ben.

Yep - that's a fair concern.

It occurred to me that quantity is an issue of it drowns out users who are selling their old gear and not making anything. One potential option is put sales of stuff like that in it's own separate section of the pro shop or tag them differently. Just throwing it out there to see what people think (and it hasn't been discussed amongst the mods yet so they might hate the idea too).

TheNuclearOne
26th July 2014, 10:29 PM
Yep - that's a fair concern.

It occurred to me that quantity is an issue of it drowns out users who are selling their old gear and not making anything.

Isn't it only like one post tho?

BenM
26th July 2014, 10:31 PM
Isn't it only like one post tho?

Right now, pretty much. I guess I'm thinking ahead, mostly.

TheNuclearOne
26th July 2014, 10:42 PM
Right now, pretty much. I guess I'm thinking ahead, mostly.

Going on present form you probably don't have to, could be wrong.

Personally i can't see the problem when many seem to be quite content and taking advantage of the gear. Not like he's spammed the pro shop and ever will.

Simple rule IF needed - no more than 2 or 3 active threads for him at any one time. Pro shop threads don't turn over anywhere near the quantity they did 12 months ago anyway.

3oneday
27th July 2014, 05:08 AM
Who is the person selling commercially?(please pm if you don't want to name them)Lovegolf2012. And yes, did start as spare clothes. Heaps have now bought from him and always with good reactions from what I can see.

I personally have no issue if it doesn't end up like a squizzy who tried to simply offload standard pricing. His pricing fluctuates based on so called sales as well, whereas the Sligo man prices things to benefit us (it seems).

PeteyD
27th July 2014, 06:22 AM
The main reason is the number of members that are happily buying his gear at the prices listed. There would appear to be significant benefit th those members that are buying.

Daves
27th July 2014, 07:33 AM
The main reason is the number of members that are happily buying his gear at the prices listed. There would appear to be significant benefit th those members that are buying.

This.

I couldn't find a valid reason for the questioning/whinging. It seemed to be a few looking for an excuse to find a wrong they could crusade, quite frankly. Ray has being selling at great prices here for yonks, and provides great service, follow up etc as well in my experience.

WBennett
27th July 2014, 07:41 AM
This.

I couldn't find a valid reason for the questioning/whinging. It seemed to be a few looking for an excuse to find a wrong they could crusade, quite frankly. Ray has being selling at great prices here for yonks, and provides great service, follow up etc as well in my experience.

I have bought plenty off Ray over the years and always happily, but the operation had seemed to step up a gear. If you are expecting new posters to post 150 times before selling, maybe you could expect existing sellers to post in threads other than their for sale threads.

BenM
27th July 2014, 08:15 AM
I have bought plenty off Ray over the years and always happily, but the operation had seemed to step up a gear. If you are expecting new posters to post 150 times before selling, maybe you could expect existing sellers to post in threads other than their for sale threads.

I actually think that is the expectation already but it isn't really formalised, and it's difficult to enforce without manual review.

Definitely agree that we should formalise it and make it clear to sellers (it is one of the criteria I mentioned earlier). But if the community are getting significant benefit from discounted prices etc it might be a bit unfair (on purchasers as well as sellers) to stop sellers just because they aren't posting much outside of their sales.

Johnny Canuck
27th July 2014, 09:00 AM
I don't see what the big deal is here.

If Andy is happy for Ray to sell his gear on Andy's privately owned site, it should be of no concern to anyone.

My only issue is that the pants I was eyeing up jumped up $5 in price when Ray summarised his remaining stock ;).

AndyP
27th July 2014, 09:43 AM
If Andy is happy for Ray to sell his gear on Andy's privately owned site, it should be of no concern to anyone. I'm happy if the buyers are happy.

BenM
27th July 2014, 09:45 AM
I'm happy if the buyers are happy.

Which is also one of the criteria we've talked about ;)

LarryLong
27th July 2014, 12:24 PM
I have bought plenty off Ray over the years and always happily, but the operation had seemed to step up a gear. If you are expecting new posters to post 150 times before selling, maybe you could expect existing sellers to post in threads other than their for sale threads.

I agree that sellers should contribute to the forum, and they should definitely be offering 'mates rates' on whatever they are selling. Prices should generally be less than what you would get if you just went and flogged the gear on eBay - I think this is a good way to show that you're fitting in with the vibe.

Wardy101
27th July 2014, 02:27 PM
other forums I am on (non-golf) have a sponsors section for which I assume there is a payment for. They do have a banner up the top of the forum page that rotates through each of the sponsors (non-obtrusive) and each sponsor has a dedicated section where people can ask questions etc

Dotty
27th July 2014, 02:45 PM
Give it a go.

We've already had Vision, BirdieBall, Nunchuk, Shotmaker and a putting ramp vendor on here as regular posters doing their stuff. And PPGL donated prizes to the last two NSW OZgolf champs.

backintheswing
27th July 2014, 02:53 PM
Pure grips as well I think

jimandr
27th July 2014, 03:20 PM
other forums I am on (non-golf) have a sponsors section for which I assume there is a payment for. They do have a banner up the top of the forum page that rotates through each of the sponsors (non-obtrusive) and each sponsor has a dedicated section where people can ask questions etc

This, and other revenue options were discussed among the new moderating team this week. Even though I am a yesman, I said no, partly for reasons of openness and transparency (as hinted at by SMS earlier) and partly because it was felt that if we took money from sponsors we might be accused of moderating negative comments about such products. I seem to recall this subject coming up previously from time to time, and we usually reach the same conclusion eventually.

And we all know that nobody can be more negative than an aggrieved Ozgolfer.

In my opinion, the way we are dealing with our commercial friends works fine. But we'd probably accept prize donations for OzGolf State Champs (if anyone turns up).

Ron Burgundy
27th July 2014, 05:13 PM
Could there be a separate pro shop for commercial sales? I'm all for having as many sources of good deals on golf gear as possible, private or commercial. Having the regular pro shop available to commercial operators depending on whether they get the vibe and do business at ozgolf prices is pretty subjective. If you open it up to all and put them in a separate thread people can choose whether or not to frequent the thread and the market will take care of the rest. If they prove trustworthy and do good deals, we benefit and they'll move a lot of product. If they don't, they won't.

oldracer
1st August 2014, 01:34 PM
Could there be a separate pro shop for commercial sales? I'm all for having as many sources of good deals on golf gear as possible, private or commercial. Having the regular pro shop available to commercial operators depending on whether they get the vibe and do business at ozgolf prices is pretty subjective. If you open it up to all and put them in a separate thread people can choose whether or not to frequent the thread and the market will take care of the rest. If they prove trustworthy and do good deals, we benefit and they'll move a lot of product. If they don't, they won't.totally agree and more to the point, some of our "commercial" guys don't sell at a huge margin, a bit to keep going so if they had their own spot, minimal fee even, would be great as it is all about getting we Ozgolfers a great deal!!!!!!

Ned
1st August 2014, 05:46 PM
Seriously, it's a volunteer run Forum, let's keep it simple, if Mods approve then it's a done deal for who lists.

BenM
1st August 2014, 08:12 PM
Yeah - I thought about a separate forum for anyone who is selling for profit - but it's not really justified at the moment as there isn't enough of it. Not much point having an empty forum. The main argument for it is so that members who are just selling their old gear etc (eg most of us) aren't getting drowned out by people selling to make money, but that's not happening right now - this issue can be addressed when (and if) it arises IMHO.

My main aim for getting the discussion happening here was twofold - firstly to give people an outlet to actually tell us what the problem is and stop them complaining in pro shop threads, and following on from that, if there is a problem, see if it can be fixed. To be honest though, based on the feedback here, I don't think the system is broken.

Having said that, I think we need to be clear on what circumstances commercial sellers will be allowed. We discussed it internally and we seem to have a consensus that we want sellers who meet the following:

a) They can't be just flogging stuff at retail - must be willing to give OzGolf members a reasonable discount
b) Must be a product which has reasonable interest from the community
c) Mustn't be spamming the forum everywhere, ads go in the pro shop only, and must be in a limited way (eg not overwhelming/flooding the forum with their crap)
d) Feedback on service levels must be generally positive

There is also a fifth criteria which is that we expect people to come here and participate in the community, not just post up a couple of ads and then bugger off until next time they want to sell something - it's a two way street. This one is difficult to enforce without manual checks and communication back and forth, but honestly any good retailer should be doing this anyway to a certain extent, even if it's just to be here and answer questions about things.

Let us know what you think. This is not set in stone yet, but it seemed to me that we have a bit of consensus about it internally, anyway. Hopefully the logic is clear enough - I think unless we've missed something really important, it's likely that current and future commercial sellers will be expected to meet these criteria if they want to use the forum to sell their wares.

matty
2nd August 2014, 04:01 PM
I'm happy if the buyers are happy.

I'm happy.

A suggestion could be a seperate area of the forum for commercial sellers. 5% commission on sales back to the site to be divvied up for state champs.

mrbluu
2nd August 2014, 04:06 PM
I'm happy with my purchases as well. the seller has purchased some stuff off me as well so all good a say.

Wardy101
2nd August 2014, 04:20 PM
Seems like a reasonable outcome....site I was referring to probably has 30 or so commercial 'sponsors' hence the own forum area makes sense there as the for sale section gets crowded

LoveGolf2012
10th August 2014, 11:22 AM
I don't see what the big deal is here.

If Andy is happy for Ray to sell his gear on Andy's privately owned site, it should be of no concern to anyone.

My only issue is that the pants I was eyeing up jumped up $5 in price when Ray summarised his remaining stock ;).

Johnny,I'm currently on my way back from Dubai.Ive just seen this thread for the first time.Im in the process of moving everything into the one post after an idea of Courtys.

I will sort it out properly when I get back.It would not have done this intentionally I was just in a hurry to get it all done.

What ever pants you like the price you have them for is what was originally put up ok?

I'm back in Melbourne late Sunday night,then heading to Gold Coast with my son Tuesday till Friday I will make sure I look after you,like I always do mate!

Thanks for bringing this to my attention also,regards Ray!

oldracer
10th August 2014, 12:42 PM
had a look at some Sligo merchandise at a couple of courses in FNQ and Ray is certainly looking after us, $40 difference in short prices alone