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AndyP
3rd July 2014, 03:47 PM
Hi all. Let me just put some posts together over time about the last couple of days.

This is my first post on the public forum for three weeks. I wasn’t posting here because I didn’t like a lot of what I read, and didn’t feel comfortable posting or reading some threads. I felt that the forum was nothing like the “vision” (I know that you love that word) that the site founders had for it, or what I thought it should be. I reduced my visits, and thought about the future of the forum and my involvement with it. I thought it might just be me, and I’d get over it with time.

Unfortunately, things happened on Wednesday night, where I felt temporarily closing the forum was the best thing to do. I thought things might escalate further, and I wanted to avoid this, as well as use the opportunity to discuss with the moderation team what we wanted to do with the forum, and then implement whatever changes there might be. I closed it because I felt it was the right thing to do at the time, and would avoid greater consequences. I am sorry for this, because it has upset a lot of members. I’m sorry if I scared you into thinking that the forum may not come back at all; I could not show my face at a golf day, if I was to do that.

Moderating has been very hard for all of us, as we do not like the conflict and the criticism that goes with it, particularly with those we are close too. I am far from an exception in this. However, I wanted the forum to be a place that I would enjoy being involved with again. To that end, I used Robyn, who was not concerned about having conflict with people she did not know, to take action to get the forum heading in the direction that I wanted it to.

I felt rushed into a decision on the forum and drastic action was taken. I knew there would be some support for it, but also some backlash and was prepared for it, but I have been surprised and saddened by how much backlash and the places it has come from. I regret that the actions taken were so suddenly, but not necessarily the actions themselves.

I will post again later, as this post has already taken a lot of time.

AndyP
3rd July 2014, 07:50 PM
My stress and anxiety levels are at high levels. I know there are more important things in life, but I am emotionally invested in this forum, so this affects me. I'll continue on.

Many members think the place is fine as it is. I disagree and so do many others, even if they are more silent than those that think nothing needs to change. People come to this forum for various reasons. Some come here to organise and join golf games. Some want to learn about golf. Others want to talk about equipment. And there are those that just want to buy and sell gear. Some are getting what they want out of the forum, others are not.

I'll tell you some of the reasons why I wasn't enjoying visiting the forum, and I know that these are the same reasons for others.

Members continually bagging the place and constantly pushing mods and the rules for who knows what reason. I didn't feel comfortable posting in my own forum because of it. Those who were banned fit into this category.

The treatment of new members. New members seem to have to go through some sort of initiation to be allowed to post an opinion or ask a question. The forum has not been very welcoming, and members seemed to get hassled for asking questions that should be expected from a noob.

Serious discussions don't seem to exist anymore with some members taking it off-topic with their own conversation or dismissing the topic/question itself.

So much niggle. Some of it might be banter between friends, but some is outright shit-stirring to get a reaction. It's not just the people involved that are affected, if affects anyone that reads the threads. I'm not naive enough to think that everyone will get along, but I there is too much negativity.

In essence, or the "vision" if you will (I am really regretting using that word), is that I expect respect to be shown to all members of the forum, such that they feel comfortable to post.

I am a member of other forums where it is not a problem, so I have really struggled to see why it is such an issue here. Over the years, I guess we have tried to make this happen in different ways, but have failed. I definitely take some of the blame for this, as I have been uncapable of making strong decisions. My job requires me to research, analyse, recommend and/or report for others to make the decisions.

I'm sorry that I can't address everyone's messages via PM or email. I read, re-read and read again what I write. That's the way I am, so these things take time. However, if I make a spelling mistake or a grammatical error, go nuts.

I'm sure I won't have addressed everyone's points, but I need to at least get down what I'm thinking/feeling before I open this thread up. And I'm not ready for the Q&A and criticism yet, and I don't know when I will be. I'd like people to at least read this and think about where I'm coming from, even if you do disagree. I may post more. I may not. It's sort of a bad time. I don't even know if posting these posts is a good idea.

We've already lost members that don't like how this was handled. We've already lost members that got sick of the things that I have written about above. We will lose more members. I have to accept that, because I can't please everybody, but it is hard for me to accept. For those that have left or want to leave, I will not hold hard feelings against you; I understand. For those that choose to stay, thank you and I hope the forum delivers on what you want from it.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 08:21 AM
I have been told by a few people now that they fear that they might get banned if they speak up. That is not the case. I can see how that opinion has been formed and I am sorry for that.

The reason other people have been banned is because they have shown over time that they are not willing to post within the rules, despite multiple warnings, infractions or bannings. They may also continually express their displeasure at their previous infractions. Banning someone is not taken lightly, but it is done for the betterment of the forum. They are not judged by whether they are a “good bloke” in real life or not, they are judged by their actions on the forum.

Be constructive and don’t take pot shots. If you are unhappy with something in the future, email or PM a mod/admin. If you don’t like or agree with the explanation, you have to agree to disagree. Don’t go around the forum posting your displeasure about the forum and/or moderator actions. Heading off to other threads like “Things that disappoint” or “Things that piss you off” to make snide remarks isn’t helpful either.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 08:22 AM
Thank you to all those that have sent me messages of support or concern, regardless of whether you are “on board” or not. It is good to know that there are many members out there who do support this, even though you are silent about it on the forum.

I’m going to open the thread for a short time for some comments or questions. I will periodically close it to allow me to reply, and make sure the thread doesn’t get carried away.

markTHEblake
4th July 2014, 08:44 AM
my observation has been that moderating is inconsistent, sometimes over,,sometimes under.Just moderate strictly according to the rules definitions. Example obfuscating foul language is a clear breach and not subject to interpretations. That includes issuing infractions to those who complain about the rules and delete said posts. Might be worthwhile reading the rules at Whirlpool, they have a pretty good moderation system including a very definitive description of what exactly personal abuse is.

Talart
4th July 2014, 08:51 AM
Well said Andy, As one of the silent members of this forum, after reading the information about why, I thoroughly agree with the action taken. It has not been easy for you and the moderators. Changing something that others do not think is broken is not easy.

I have spent more time than usual browsing the forums in the past week this observation you have made is accurate. "Serious discussions don't seem to exist anymore with some members taking it off-topic with their own conversation or dismissing the topic/question itself." Often I would drop in here and browse through and rarely contribute. I simply have a passion for playing golf, after a 3 year stint on my club committee have no interest in getting involved in more in-fighting. Yet in this case I will stand up and show my support as an 'outsider' on Oz Golf because Andy and the Moderators do have it from this quarter.

BenM
4th July 2014, 08:58 AM
Be constructive and don’t take pot shots. If you are unhappy with something in the future, email or PM a mod/admin. If you don’t like or agree with the explanation, you have to agree to disagree. Don’t go around the forum posting your displeasure about the forum and/or moderator actions. Heading off to other threads like “Things that disappoint” or “Things that piss you off” to make snide remarks isn’t helpful either.

Guilty as charged. Mostly due to a mixture of shock and disappointment at the lack of explanation. Sorry.

The trouble is, what has been done is a big change from what has been done in the past, or at least it seems that way. People get used to things being a certain way and when it changes without notice they get their backs up. Nobody likes change, but there's less impact if the actions and the reasons for them are well communicated.

Once people start to understand all the whys and whens then they will either accept and adjust or they will move on. I have no doubt that this place will continue to be a good place to be.

Webster
4th July 2014, 09:06 AM
Andyp, are you proposing to make any changes to the infractions system and/or the moderation process to address some of the concerns raised by yourself and the other mods (including those who have indicated they no longer wish to me moderators) .

Dotty
4th July 2014, 09:15 AM
No taking pot shots? There goes half my posts.

No problem here with recent events and am a strong supporter of 'My forum. My rules'.

The punters just need to take a step back and stop believing the koolaid that 'People power brought down the Berlin Wall' and 'The customer is always right'.

Vice MC
4th July 2014, 09:36 AM
I think its all justified.

KristianJ
4th July 2014, 09:36 AM
To Jack's comment in brackets, I will step forward and say that I have indicated that I will step down at the end of the month.

But I have many reasons outside of OZgolf for this, relating to work, family and health reasons which are more important to me.

It is not a case of "This is ****ed. I want out".

Given that it is Andy's thread, I will make no further comment here.

jimandr
4th July 2014, 09:41 AM
I'll still take potshots at you Dotty, and if we get banned we'll start a potshots only forum.

Seriously, I recognise the stress this situation has caused the Management Team, and I support the actions taken in one instance. The subsequent conduct of one party on ISG shows me that he and his supporters are better off on their own forum, and they have done the right thing and created one. Indeed, I think we would all be better off giving that site some publicity and support so that the dissenters have somewhere to go that isn't ISG. Once the dust settles we could even have a cooperative relationship (and an annual golf challenge).

It is obvious to me that the constant criticism has worn you all down, and it was unfortunate that a breaking point was reached. I can't really see how I can offer more tangible support, but if there is something I can do to help, I offer my support.

Boonie
4th July 2014, 09:43 AM
AP,

I think the infraction system was a big mistake personally, and I think you should reconsider it. I get the point about mods not wanting to mod their friends, but I think you underestimate people a bit. If there is a set of clear guidelines and people genuinely do like each other and value the forum, they will take a rebuke here and there if it's in the best interests of all. A friendly rebuke is actually a lot more effective than an authoritarian one, which just creates more tension and angst IMO.

I say trust yourselves and your site by letting go a bit

Cheers, Rich

markTHEblake
4th July 2014, 09:45 AM
Sorry to see you go KJ, your presence on the mod team would have been very valuable.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 09:58 AM
my observation has been that moderating is inconsistent, sometimes over,,sometimes under.Just moderate strictly according to the rules definitions. Example obfuscating foul language is a clear breach and not subject to interpretations. That includes issuing infractions to those who complain about the rules and delete said posts. Might be worthwhile reading the rules at Whirlpool, they have a pretty good moderation system including a very definitive description of what exactly personal abuse is.
Moderation has been not so much inconsistent, but close to non-existent at times.
The rules we use were a combination of many websites that we use, however I will look at Whirlpool.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:05 AM
The trouble is, what has been done is a big change from what has been done in the past, or at least it seems that way. People get used to things being a certain way and when it changes without notice they get their backs up. Nobody likes change, but there's less impact if the actions and the reasons for them are well communicated.

Once people start to understand all the whys and whens then they will either accept and adjust or they will move on. I have no doubt that this place will continue to be a good place to be.
The suddenness of it was definitely the wrong way to go, however it was felt that we have communicated the rules before and get frustrated with going through this every couple of years. If the forum the rules were enforced on a consistent basis by the moderation team, then we shouldn't need to do that.

I will be looking to go over the rules again, explain them more, if required, or the reasons for them. When that is done, I will re-post them and make them as visible as possible. I think there will be a point where people will have to opt-in to the forum again, or leave.

BenM
4th July 2014, 10:11 AM
Sorry to see you go KJ, your presence on the mod team would have been very valuable.

Seconded. From the outside I thought your mod interactions looked very good (not that I was ever on the receiving end).

Monsta
4th July 2014, 10:13 AM
While I dont post very often, I have nothing but support and admiration for the Mod's on this site, while I find it amusing to read some of the posts here, I can understand that some people may take it to heart. Trolling affects everyone in a different way....

Keep up the great work Andy (and other mods), I enjoy the forum and would hate for it to close down

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:17 AM
Andyp, are you proposing to make any changes to the infractions system and/or the moderation process to address some of the concerns raised by yourself and the other mods (including those who have indicated they no longer wish to me moderators) .I don't think it is the infraction system itself that is wrong, it just wasn't being used. I believe we need more moderators, even if people are moderators in just one sub-forum. Many hands make light work, and the current team is either not comfortable giving infractions or doesn't have the time.

As an aside to that, I will explain OZgolf Mod. That account serves two purposes. Firstly, it is a vehicle for those of us who do not like the conflict of giving infractions. I have received abuse, legal threats and personal threats in my role, so I don't think it is wrong to use it to protect the moderators. Members react differently to receiving warnings or infractions. Secondly, it provides a united front from the moderation team. It's not one individual taking the action, it is the moderation team.

I'll also use the opportunity to explain what happens when a report or infraction is made. When this happens, a thread is created in the moderation area that all moderators can see, take action on, or discuss. When you claim bias from a moderator in the action that is taken, you are claiming bias from the whole team because all of us know about it. This is also the reason that there is a delay in action being taken, because a moderator might want someone else to "sign off" on an action.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:18 AM
No problem here with recent events and am a strong supporter of 'My forum. My rules'.It is that to an extent, but we believe it is what others want as well. I don't expect to be the only person posting here.

Dotty
4th July 2014, 10:24 AM
It is that to an extent, but we believe it is what others want as well. I don't expect to be the only person posting here.
I wanted to post 'Our forum. Our rules.' (with Our implying admin team), but I didn't want it ambiguous with my next statement (if Our got interpreted as meaning all members).

mrbluu
4th July 2014, 10:25 AM
I'm a believer in the forum is a benefit and not a privilege, I think some ppl either don't feel the same way or have forgotten.

WBennett
4th July 2014, 10:26 AM
As former President of a Footy Club, we had a crisis meeting after Round 9 of EVERY year. Its human nature for people to push the rules and do their own thing, and if you don't nip it in the bud it grows, others follow a less than exemplary example and the world blows up.

Its one of those things that happens.

I apologise for the spray I posted elsewhere this morning which you have seen and responded to. This WAS my favourite place on the interwebs. Its now broken, and that disappoints me.

I'll still be here. It still has a good name. I'll still wear my Ozgolf Shirt and use my Ozgolf putter cover, and remember my Ozgolf weekends fondly. But through choices made this week, we lost a lot of what made this a great place (the people) and they won't be back in a hurry.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:27 AM
AP,

I think the infraction system was a big mistake personally, and I think you should reconsider it. I get the point about mods not wanting to mod their friends, but I think you underestimate people a bit. If there is a set of clear guidelines and people genuinely do like each other and value the forum, they will take a rebuke here and there if it's in the best interests of all. A friendly rebuke is actually a lot more effective than an authoritarian one, which just creates more tension and angst IMO.

I say trust yourselves and your site by letting go a bit

Cheers, Rich
It was a suggestion made based on how another forum was run. The rules were already there, and we felt that the system enabled us to keep track of when things more, as well as, transparency on it within the moderation team. On thinking about it, I do not believe that the two other forums that I frequent and respect use infraction points, although there is a warning system. One of those forums is closed to the public though.

I will have a think about it, look at some other forums, like whirlpool and discuss with others.

markTHEblake
4th July 2014, 10:38 AM
I also would like to think that the moderarators in most cases would Not take action until a post was reported.

A good example of my point might be the deliberate threadjacking in the proshop. Unless the OP reports it then it should be left alone.

Of course that doesn't apply in all cases.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:41 AM
I've got some awesome post-boosting happening here.


Indeed, I think we would all be better off giving that site some publicity and support so that the dissenters have somewhere to go that isn't ISG. Once the dust settles we could even have a cooperative relationship (and an annual golf challenge).
I don't have a problem with any of the forums, not that I frequent them either. I don't think the user AndyP can be separated from the OZgolf forum in people's eyes.

www.shanksarefunny.com (http://www.shanksarefunny.com) is a forum that some of the guys started up a while ago, but have actively promoted after the last couple of days. There are plenty of familiar faces there. I hope we haven't lost them completely. I think you cop an infraction for keeping a WA thread on-topic though.

http://forums.iseekgolf.com is where this forum originally split off from. Personally, I never had an issue with the place. I came here because this is where the guys that I played golf with moved to. Have a look for yourself, if you haven't before.

http://www.thegolfforum.com/ Not one that I visit, but I know that course architecture is a strength of that forum.

I think there might be some other minor split off ones around, that felt like they didn't fit in with the other options, but I don't know if they still exist.

Please don't bag the other forums on this forum. Each forum meets the needs of those that post on them.

WBennett
4th July 2014, 10:47 AM
I've got some awesome post-boosting happening here.


I don't have a problem with any of the forums, not that I frequent them either. I don't think the user AndyP can be separated from the OZgolf forum in people's eyes.

www.shanksarefunny.com (http://www.shanksarefunny.com) is a forum that some of the guys started up a while ago, but have actively promoted after the last couple of days. There are plenty of familiar faces there. I hope we haven't lost them completely. I think you cop an infraction for keeping a WA thread on-topic though.

http://forums.iseekgolf.com is where this forum originally split off from. Personally, I never had an issue with the place. I came here because this is where the guys that I played golf with moved to. Have a look for yourself, if you haven't before.

http://www.thegolfforum.com/ Not one that I visit, but I know that course architecture is a strength of that forum.

I think there might be some other minor split off ones around, that felt like they didn't fit in with the other options, but I don't know if they still exist.

Please don't bag the other forums on this forum. Each forum meets the needs of those that post on them.


You may find that Shanks triggers inappropriate content warnings through internet content filters at Government and other monitored workplaces.
I have made a deliberate decision to avoid it on non-personal devices.

If you reckon ozgolf was cliquey, TGF is a different world. There are 2 levels of posters - those who are sandbelt members and the rest somewhere below them. However, there are some fantastic blokes on there who are also here who I have had the pleasure of playing with such as Boonie, Bruce, Andigold, Jack, Firey, Judge Smails, VMan, QbnChopper just to name a few. I use the forum to learn about architecture and wind up the Liberal Party faithful.

ISG? Meh. And no, not Macjackass. Its just meh...

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:49 AM
I also would like to think that the moderarators in most cases would Not take action until a post was reported. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked. Maybe now that something has happened and we're talking about it, it will.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 10:52 AM
You may find that Shanks triggers inappropriate content warnings through internet content filters at Government and other monitored workplaces.
I have made a deliberate decision to avoid it on non-personal devices.
I want people to be able to read the forum on their work PC if they want to, even if they are not allowed to. NSFW (Not Safe For Work) is not always about one individual image, it could because of the affect of a whole page of images.

3oneday
4th July 2014, 11:46 AM
Welcome back AP.

I tend to agree with Boonie, if someone warrants an infraction just give them a spell for a couple of days instead. All it creates (for some) is the need to test the boundaries.

The forums were a much nicer place a couple of years ago, as Hux said.

Ferrins
4th July 2014, 12:56 PM
I also would like to think that the moderarators in most cases would Not take action until a post was reported.

A good example of my point might be the deliberate threadjacking in the proshop. Unless the OP reports it then it should be left alone.

Of course that doesn't apply in all cases.

People are doing a subtle proshop threadjack by offering trades.

AndyP
4th July 2014, 01:24 PM
One thing I have forgotten to mention is that the forum is currently closed to new registrations. I just want things to settle before I open it up again, and maybe some people watching from the outside would be interested in joining.

OZgolfers, I'm going to close this thread temporarily until tomorrow. As I said before, I don't want the thread getting out of control, if I'm not available to provide the answers.
I have my year's goal run tomorrow, so I need to try to get myself right for that and switch off from this, if that is possible.

I'm encouraged by this thread so far, so thank you for reading my posts and providing your comments and feedback.

AndyP
5th July 2014, 09:44 AM
Yo, I'm back online after my dismal failure this morning.

Keep the questions/feedback coming if you have something to say.

Ron Burgundy
5th July 2014, 10:11 AM
Yo, I'm back online after my dismal failure this morning. I saw your time. Anyone else on here would give their left nut for that time. Granted it's not what you were looking for and probably caps off a rough week. But I wouldn't think it's dismal at all.

AndyP
5th July 2014, 10:59 AM
Thanks. I'll chuck something in the run thread later.

Cosmopolite
5th July 2014, 11:56 AM
I am going to give my 2 bobs here.

I dont post a lot on the forum but I do read some of it. I am not into nunchuk shafts etc so those sort of threads dont hold a great deal of interest to me. I came to the forum because of my love for golf, to talk about it here and to meet people and play golf. I have attended 2 Ozgolf champs and 2 WAnker champs and had a great time at all of them and met a lot of nice people. I like the forum for being informative at times and most of all giving me laughs (Hatchman please give us another thread like the Griswolds).

You have to have rules otherwise people will push the boundaries and you will end up with a lawless mishmash of crap.

The administration of the forum and the moderating are thankless tasks but someone has to do it. It is like being on committees of clubs etc, someone has to do it and there are always going to be critics and unhappy campers.

I still do not know what caused all this, obviously in a thread I was not following. It must have been pretty serious to shut it down temporarily. I am not sure that this was the best method of dealing with the issue but it has happened and hopefully things can move along.

Members, please remember the mods give their time free to do what they do.

Cosmo

sms316
5th July 2014, 02:19 PM
Cosmo,

I have been torn in regards to passing comment on the whole debacle since I presume that any negative post from me will see a banning. I don't think it is any secret that I've sailed close to the wind in the past and I suspect that am next on the hitlist.

I spend (spent) a fair bit of time here and I have no idea what brought this to a head. I suspect that it was something pretty minimal that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The fact that a bunch of direct questions were not met with direct answers alienated a lot of people and I suspect that was even more so than the lockout.

Anyway, what is done is done. Hopefully AndyP/goughy/clickchic find whatever it is that they are looking for. The rest of us aren't mind readers.

Cosmopolite
5th July 2014, 02:54 PM
Cosmo,

I have been torn in regards to passing comment on the whole debacle since I presume that any negative post from me will see a banning. I don't think it is any secret that I've sailed close to the wind in the past and I suspect that am next on the hitlist.

I spend (spent) a fair bit of time here and I have no idea what brought this to a head. I suspect that it was something pretty minimal that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The fact that a bunch of direct questions were not met with direct answers alienated a lot of people and I suspect that was even more so than the lockout.

Anyway, what is done is done. Hopefully AndyP/goughy/clickchic find whatever it is that they are looking for. The rest of us aren't mind readers.

perhaps we could get a condensed version of what happened (no names though) so at least we are not in the dark of what happened?

jimandr
5th July 2014, 03:53 PM
I think the big problem the Golf Forum Industry is facing is golf fatigue. Most of us forum veterans have already discussed almost every golf related topic, and played many of the bucket list courses that are available for us to organise games at. So the nostalgia for the good old days is very hard to turn into reality.

Accordingly, many of the veterans get a bit bored, and resort to boundary pushing in order to retain their interest.

Fortunately for OzGolf, the equipment ho's never get sick of looking for the next magic wand, so there will always be something for us to talk about.

Hopefully, we will all learn from this experience, treat each other as human beings and respect their right to disagree with what we think. Except for Manly supporters, of course.

Lets just get on with it, at whichever forum we prefer. I prefer this one.

LarryLong
5th July 2014, 04:01 PM
I rarely wade into these things, but I'd suggest a period of settling down and then a return to a benign dictatorship would be a good thing. Moderation and rules shouldn't be on the agenda every day of the year. I think the mods tried too hard to be transparent and accountable with the infraction system and this seemed to create a culture of every member expecting the mods to be accountable to them for every decision they made. Not a response to any particular post or person, just an observation of, as Denis Denuto would say, the vibe.

PeteyD
5th July 2014, 04:32 PM
Good observation Larry.

Bruce
5th July 2014, 05:40 PM
Why is the initial justification thread gone?

Steve57
5th July 2014, 05:50 PM
Not part of the vision?

markTHEblake
5th July 2014, 06:33 PM
I spend (spent) a fair bit of time here and I have no idea what brought this to a head. I suspect that it was something pretty minimal that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was reading most of the posts on that black night until well after midnight and I saw nothing. I remain perplexed.

Webster
5th July 2014, 06:42 PM
Why is the initial justification thread gone?

I suspect it became uncomfortable for the person who started it.

Steve57
5th July 2014, 06:42 PM
I was reading most of the posts on that black night until well after midnight and I saw nothing. I remain perplexed.
+1
Makes no sense whatsoever!

Tank33
5th July 2014, 06:47 PM
I believe all these talks trying to justify actions taken by the mod team on a few nights ago aren't getting to the point.

I am not an internet forum expert and have never been involved in owning or moderating one. However, it doesn't prevent me from having an opinion.

I loved Ozgolf.net even though I don't really know many users personally. I have only met a few guys from Sydney to buy or sell some stuff and because of that fact, I believe I can be way more objective than Clikchic in every way.

I took me good 2-3 years to get myself accustomed to post something on here. It wasn't because of people not welcoming new users. It's the vibe about this forum. Although I felt like I could post up any useless stuff on the other forum, it made me believe that I shouldn't post here unless I had something substantial to contribute.

However, I always found the forum informative when needed otherwise just fun to read and spend some time on until the hell broke out.

I don't really know what have been happening all those years. If something has been going on, it must been a long time ago because I have never experienced anything that's been described to be happening since I have joined the forum.

However, now I am realising this place wasn't what I have believed to be because of the following facts.

1. Appearance of Clikchic - Until she posted that msg (which has now disappeared), I never knew who owned the site or whatever. But did it really matter who had the ownership? Once you decided to set up an internet forum for whatever reasons and started to have other users joining up and forming a community, this forum belongs to everyone of us. You can't just show up and be an arrogant landlord telling to vacate the place. It's not like this forum was set up yesterday. That's very intrusive and does not serve the purpose of an internet forum. If you haven't been contributing continuously as one of us from day one, you should've kept on staying in the back seat.

2. Moderating work - you guys tirelessly mention how stressful and thankless task it is. Did any of us force you to become a moderator? You know what's involved. You know what needs to be done or what it takes to do the job. It's the sacrifice you CHOSE to make. So stop whining about how difficult it is. If you had too much of it and it affects your life, I am sure you can just quit. I believe the more invisible moderators are, the better the forum is.

3. Sensorship/Transparency - This is an INTERNET forum in AUSTRALIA. It's not an page of a history book of a third world country. Why do you need to delete/lock so many posts? What were there that we as users couldn't handle? This forum does not have any transparency. If something happened which required an action from the mod team, you should've left the offending threads open so each one of us can come up with our own decisions as well. Then we could have better understood what you have been through. Without transparency, it suggests that you were emotionally burnt out of running the site and acted on an impulse which wasn't in the interest of the forum's future.

4. Trolling - I never sort of knew what that word meant until you mentioned it a few days ago. So who have been trolled by who for a prolonged period of time? I couldn't find that many posts someone continuously trolling someone. Everyone has different ideas and we talk about our differences and come to an agreements or arguments. Isn't that the purpose of a forum? A place to express your opinion? I don't know any user claiming they have been trolled by a mod because they always seem to have different ideas just about everything. Unless someone has been always abusive and have been offending a lot of users, you can't accuse them of trolling. The interesting bit was the banned users were allegedly trolled the mod team not other users.

I think the mod team needs to take the chill pill or take some time off moderating. Don't act like as if you are constantly nagged by feds to clean up the site.
I don't think anyone else other than us are interested in what goes on around here.

Have a bit of sense of humour and openness, I am sure you could have just laughed off about a lot of stuff that went on here.

SMS told me in one of the posts that I am full of shit (an example of trolling??), does that make I am full of shit? I don't think so. So I just laugh it off and chose to ignore that post.


IMO, respect is something that is earned not forced upon. Even without respect between each others, this place will remain peaceful, fun, interesting and informative if we show a little bit of courtesy.

And even though some users may have failed to show courtesy towards the mod team, the mod team failed to show your courtesy to all the users by shutting the site down intentionally.

If you really want a site where everything happens your way, maybe just have a private site between your mates?

I wouldn't have posted all this bs if I wasn't as passionate about the site as you (owners & mods) are.

Cheers.

AndyP
5th July 2014, 06:48 PM
Thanks for your observations.


perhaps we could get a condensed version of what happened (no names though) so at least we are not in the dark of what happened?Cosmo, I don't think there is any benefit in posting the details.

sms316
5th July 2014, 07:11 PM
Cosmo, I don't think there is any benefit in posting the details. AP, in my humble opinion this is hardly a helpful response. You have just had a bunch of posts saying how they are perplexed by the whole thing and you have chosen to leave them perplexed. I understand that you are hardly a confrontational kind of guy but this might be a time to get out of the comfort zone for the betterment of the forum.

At the moment I only have the assumption that Yoss was banned for being a pest, g69 for saying something mildly negative (6 months after saying something similar) and Moe was banned because he hurt goughy's feelings so he got his wife to stand up for him.

You are the only one who can set people straight.

Anyway, it's best I stay out of this thread from here. Later.

AndyP
5th July 2014, 07:16 PM
AP, in my humble opinion this is hardly a helpful response. You have just had a bunch of posts saying how they are perplexed by the whole thing and you have chosen to leave them perplexed. I understand that you are hardly a confrontational kind of guy but this might be a time to get out of the comfort zone for the betterment of the forum. Sorry, but I replied to cosmo's post alone. The other posts were not there when I started the reply and I have not had the chance to reply to the other posts.

AndyP
5th July 2014, 07:26 PM
Why is the initial justification thread gone?

I suspect it became uncomfortable for the person who started it.
I started this thread to replace it, but I didn't think about it providing the background information. It is available for reading again.

Johnny Canuck
5th July 2014, 07:33 PM
I believe all these talks trying to justify actions taken by the mod team on a few nights ago aren't getting to the point.

I am not an internet forum expert and have never been involved in owning or moderating one. However, it doesn't prevent me from having an opinion.

I loved Ozgolf.net even though I don't really know many users personally. I have only met a few guys from Sydney to buy or sell some stuff and because of that fact, I believe I can be way more objective than Clikchic in every way.

I took me good 2-3 years to get myself accustomed to post something on here. It wasn't because of people not welcoming new users. It's the vibe about this forum. Although I felt like I could post up any useless stuff on the other forum, it made me believe that I shouldn't post here unless I had something substantial to contribute.

However, I always found the forum informative when needed otherwise just fun to read and spend some time on until the hell broke out.

I don't really know what have been happening all those years. If something has been going on, it must been a long time ago because I have never experienced anything that's been described to be happening since I have joined the forum.

However, now I am realising this place wasn't what I have believed to be because of the following facts.

1. Appearance of Clikchic - Until she posted that msg (which has now disappeared), I never knew who owned the site or whatever. But did it really matter who had the ownership? Once you decided to set up an internet forum for whatever reasons and started to have other users joining up and forming a community, this forum belongs to everyone of us. You can't just show up and be an arrogant landlord telling to vacate the place. It's not like this forum was set up yesterday. That's very intrusive and does not serve the purpose of an internet forum. If you haven't been contributing continuously as one of us from day one, you should've kept on staying in the back seat.

2. Moderating work - you guys tirelessly mention how stressful and thankless task it is. Did any of us force you to become a moderator? You know what's involved. You know what needs to be done or what it takes to do the job. It's the sacrifice you CHOSE to make. So stop whining about how difficult it is. If you had too much of it and it affects your life, I am sure you can just quit. I believe the more invisible moderators are, the better the forum is.

3. Sensorship/Transparency - This is an INTERNET forum in AUSTRALIA. It's not an page of a history book of a third world country. Why do you need to delete/lock so many posts? What were there that we as users couldn't handle? This forum does not have any transparency. If something happened which required an action from the mod team, you should've left the offending threads open so each one of us can come up with our own decisions as well. Then we could have better understood what you have been through. Without transparency, it suggests that you were emotionally burnt out of running the site and acted on an impulse which wasn't in the interest of the forum's future.

4. Trolling - I never sort of knew what that word meant until you mentioned it a few days ago. So who have been trolled by who for a prolonged period of time? I couldn't find that many posts someone continuously trolling someone. Everyone has different ideas and we talk about our differences and come to an agreements or arguments. Isn't that the purpose of a forum? A place to express your opinion? I don't know any user claiming they have been trolled by a mod because they always seem to have different ideas just about everything. Unless someone has been always abusive and have been offending a lot of users, you can't accuse them of trolling. The interesting bit was the banned users were allegedly trolled the mod team not other users.

I think the mod team needs to take the chill pill or take some time off moderating. Don't act like as if you are constantly nagged by feds to clean up the site.
I don't think anyone else other than us are interested in what goes on around here.

Have a bit of sense of humour and openness, I am sure you could have just laughed off about a lot of stuff that went on here.

SMS told me in one of the posts that I am full of shit (an example of trolling??), does that make I am full of shit? I don't think so. So I just laugh it off and chose to ignore that post.


IMO, respect is something that is earned not forced upon. Even without respect between each others, this place will remain peaceful, fun, interesting and informative if we show a little bit of courtesy.

And even though some users may have failed to show courtesy towards the mod team, the mod team failed to show your courtesy to all the users by shutting the site down intentionally.

If you really want a site where everything happens your way, maybe just have a private site between your mates?

I wouldn't have posted all this bs if I wasn't as passionate about the site as you (owners & mods) are.

Cheers.

Well said, Tank. You raise a lot of valid points.

The funniest part was the ClicChik kept referencing trolling when it was pretty clear that she had no idea what it really was.

I asked for examples on numerous occasions and none could be provided.

We all realise what a great mistake it was having her come in. What's done is done.

The forum has been quite tame recently, with the only real arguments about the minimum number of posts to post in the pro shop. However, if it does not reflect what ANDY wants (not ClicChik or Dean who sold the site and renounced mod rights) than he has the right to act accordingly. I will support whatever he decides.

I still love this place and will continue to frequent it. Will it ever be the same? Probably not.

The funniest thing regarding the "trolling" is that I would bet you could find as many or more examples of a mod "trolling" Yoss than the opposite, which makes the entire situation even more sadder.

AndyP
5th July 2014, 07:59 PM
Thread pause and I'll reopen after addressing some previous posts.

We will have to move on from this soon though.

simmsy
5th July 2014, 11:20 PM
Tank, just want to say great post! arguably post of the year. i wish i could put into words what i was thinking the other night as good as you have done here. You hit so many nails on the head with this.

AndyP
6th July 2014, 08:08 AM
Tank33, I don't believe that I can address all of your points because some is targeted towards clikchic's thread from the other night.


2. Moderating work - you guys tirelessly mention how stressful and thankless task it is. Did any of us force you to become a moderator? You know what's involved. You know what needs to be done or what it takes to do the job. It's the sacrifice you CHOSE to make. So stop whining about how difficult it is. If you had too much of it and it affects your life, I am sure you can just quit. I believe the more invisible moderators are, the better the forum is.
I disagree that we have been tirelessly whining about it. I have mentioned in this thread that it has been hard because of the criticism that comes from some members. The moderators are usually invisible, except some members continued to bring discuss moderator actions in the forum.


3. Sensorship/Transparency - This is an INTERNET forum in AUSTRALIA. It's not an page of a history book of a third world country. Why do you need to delete/lock so many posts? What were there that we as users couldn't handle? This forum does not have any transparency. If something happened which required an action from the mod team, you should've left the offending threads open so each one of us can come up with our own decisions as well. Then we could have better understood what you have been through. Without transparency, it suggests that you were emotionally burnt out of running the site and acted on an impulse which wasn't in the interest of the forum's future.There aren't that many posts deleted or locked. Locking a thread stops whatever was happening in a thread from continuing. If something is posted against the rules, why wouldn't we remove it? Do you know any other forums where the team that run the site tell you everything that they have done or are doing? Why does every single user have to a view on this? Actions are quite often taken to prevent things from escalating further.


4. Everyone has different ideas and we talk about our differences and come to an agreements or arguments. Isn't that the purpose of a forum? A place to express your opinion? Yes. I haven't said otherwise. The problem is when those arguments get personal or take over a thread.


SMS told me in one of the posts that I am full of shit (an example of trolling??), does that make I am full of shit? I don't think so. So I just laugh it off and chose to ignore that post.No, it's not an example of trolling, unless he knew very well that you would react badly to it and did it to incite that response.


IMO, respect is something that is earned not forced upon. Even without respect between each others, this place will remain peaceful, fun, interesting and informative if we show a little bit of courtesy. I don't think there was enough courtesy before. Other people in this thread have supported this view.


And even though some users may have failed to show courtesy towards the mod team, the mod team failed to show your courtesy to all the users by shutting the site down intentionally.Correct, but where was the courtesy before that.


If you really want a site where everything happens your way, maybe just have a private site between your mates?Although it may be my way, it is my way based on what I have liked about other forums and there are plenty of members who have supported what I have been saying in this thread, so it's not like I am doing this just for myself. Some seem to dismiss the views of mods, without considering that they too are users of the forum.



I wouldn't have posted all this bs if I wasn't as passionate about the site as you (owners & mods) are.Thank you.

AndyP
6th July 2014, 03:16 PM
Open for the last time.

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 03:32 PM
Ive been away from the site (limited access) for the past week, which was probably a good thing?
I don't know, nor do i want to know what shit went down, but i believe the decisions made where warranted for the good of the site.
Did we lose some good guy's, yes probably but I'm sure they have been forewarned from previous misdemeanours and obviously didn't adhere to the guidelines.
I think the site could be more heavily Moderated, just do it behind the scenes before things get out of hand.
Id like to see a list of current Moderators actually, i'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 that are hardly ever here which puts more strain on the guys that login more frequently.
Its a tireless and unrewarding job, but as they say in the classics someone has to do it....
After this shamozzle, will i frequent here more often or less, I'm not sure.
But i love this site, more-so for the actual golfing friends I've made and great club making information I've received.
Ive had some super weekends (and some fun rounds) with a lot of guys on here over the years and id hate to lose that and their friendship.
Also those guys bitching and moaning about what transpired, why don't you simply leave and join another site (which by the looks of it many have) ;)
No-ones forcing you to be here?
Keep up the good work Andy and crew.
Just my 2 cents....
Peace Titty.

meh
6th July 2014, 03:40 PM
I believe all these talks trying to justify actions taken by the mod team on a few nights ago aren't getting to the point.

I am not an internet forum expert and have never been involved in owning or moderating one. However, it doesn't prevent me from having an opinion.

I loved Ozgolf.net even though I don't really know many users personally. I have only met a few guys from Sydney to buy or sell some stuff and because of that fact, I believe I can be way more objective than Clikchic in every way.

I took me good 2-3 years to get myself accustomed to post something on here. It wasn't because of people not welcoming new users. It's the vibe about this forum. Although I felt like I could post up any useless stuff on the other forum, it made me believe that I shouldn't post here unless I had something substantial to contribute.

However, I always found the forum informative when needed otherwise just fun to read and spend some time on until the hell broke out.

I don't really know what have been happening all those years. If something has been going on, it must been a long time ago because I have never experienced anything that's been described to be happening since I have joined the forum.

However, now I am realising this place wasn't what I have believed to be because of the following facts.

1. Appearance of Clikchic - Until she posted that msg (which has now disappeared), I never knew who owned the site or whatever. But did it really matter who had the ownership? Once you decided to set up an internet forum for whatever reasons and started to have other users joining up and forming a community, this forum belongs to everyone of us. You can't just show up and be an arrogant landlord telling to vacate the place. It's not like this forum was set up yesterday. That's very intrusive and does not serve the purpose of an internet forum. If you haven't been contributing continuously as one of us from day one, you should've kept on staying in the back seat.

2. Moderating work - you guys tirelessly mention how stressful and thankless task it is. Did any of us force you to become a moderator? You know what's involved. You know what needs to be done or what it takes to do the job. It's the sacrifice you CHOSE to make. So stop whining about how difficult it is. If you had too much of it and it affects your life, I am sure you can just quit. I believe the more invisible moderators are, the better the forum is.

3. Sensorship/Transparency - This is an INTERNET forum in AUSTRALIA. It's not an page of a history book of a third world country. Why do you need to delete/lock so many posts? What were there that we as users couldn't handle? This forum does not have any transparency. If something happened which required an action from the mod team, you should've left the offending threads open so each one of us can come up with our own decisions as well. Then we could have better understood what you have been through. Without transparency, it suggests that you were emotionally burnt out of running the site and acted on an impulse which wasn't in the interest of the forum's future.

4. Trolling - I never sort of knew what that word meant until you mentioned it a few days ago. So who have been trolled by who for a prolonged period of time? I couldn't find that many posts someone continuously trolling someone. Everyone has different ideas and we talk about our differences and come to an agreements or arguments. Isn't that the purpose of a forum? A place to express your opinion? I don't know any user claiming they have been trolled by a mod because they always seem to have different ideas just about everything. Unless someone has been always abusive and have been offending a lot of users, you can't accuse them of trolling. The interesting bit was the banned users were allegedly trolled the mod team not other users.

I think the mod team needs to take the chill pill or take some time off moderating. Don't act like as if you are constantly nagged by feds to clean up the site.
I don't think anyone else other than us are interested in what goes on around here.

Have a bit of sense of humour and openness, I am sure you could have just laughed off about a lot of stuff that went on here.

SMS told me in one of the posts that I am full of shit (an example of trolling??), does that make I am full of shit? I don't think so. So I just laugh it off and chose to ignore that post.


IMO, respect is something that is earned not forced upon. Even without respect between each others, this place will remain peaceful, fun, interesting and informative if we show a little bit of courtesy.

And even though some users may have failed to show courtesy towards the mod team, the mod team failed to show your courtesy to all the users by shutting the site down intentionally.

If you really want a site where everything happens your way, maybe just have a private site between your mates?

I wouldn't have posted all this bs if I wasn't as passionate about the site as you (owners & mods) are.

Cheers.


I would say the forum owner has a right to make rules and enforce them. If you don't like them, it is your perogative to stay or go.

simmsy
6th July 2014, 04:29 PM
Ive been away from the site (limited access) for the past week, which was probably a good thing?
I don't know, nor do i want to know what shit went down, but i believe the decisions made where warranted for the good of the site.
Did we lose some good guy's, yes probably but I'm sure they have been forewarned from previous misdemeanours and obviously didn't adhere to the guidelines.
I think the site could be more heavily Moderated, just do it behind the scenes before things get out of hand.
Id like to see a list of current Moderators actually, i'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 that are hardly ever here which puts more strain on the guys that login more frequently.
Its a tireless and unrewarding job, but as they say in the classics someone has to do it....
After this shamozzle, will i frequent here more often or less, I'm not sure.
But i love this site, more-so for the actual golfing friends I've made and great club making information I've received.
Ive had some super weekends (and some fun rounds) with a lot of guys on here over the years and id hate to lose that and their friendship.
Also those guys bitching and moaning about what transpired, why don't you simply leave and join another site (which by the looks of it many have) ;)
No-ones forcing you to be here?
Keep up the good work Andy and crew.
Just my 2 cents....
Peace Titty.


Titty if you had of seen how Clickchic was behaving on here the other night you may have a different opinion. She did more damage in under 12 hours than all the trolls combined could do in 12 months.

simmsy
6th July 2014, 04:31 PM
I would say the forum owner has a right to make rules and enforce them. If you don't like them, it is your perogative to stay or go.

Like allow someone to come back on the forum as someone else?

Just curious.

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 04:31 PM
Simmsy, i missed it all, and i prob can't be arsed trying to find (or read) the rant.

simmsy
6th July 2014, 04:33 PM
She deleted her rant, abused most of us then thought she should remove it.

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 04:35 PM
Well there you go.....
I still stand by what i said.
We all like a joke and pisstake, but if guys want to take the piss and push boundaries, go somewhere else and do it.

shazza_rs
6th July 2014, 05:09 PM
....
We all like a joke and pisstake, but if guys want to take the piss and push boundaries, go somewhere else and do it.

I've not said anything in this thread but I agree with the above.

We can all take a joke until it's no longer funny.

AndyP
6th July 2014, 05:15 PM
I removed the previous thread when I started this thread, but have since returned it.

MegaWatty
6th July 2014, 05:45 PM
Well there you go.....
I still stand by what i said.
We all like a joke and pisstake, but if guys want to take the piss and push boundaries, go somewhere else and do it.

???

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 05:50 PM
:smt006

Ferrins
6th July 2014, 05:59 PM
You're a wally Lawrence.

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 06:02 PM
Why?

Ferrins
6th July 2014, 06:04 PM
You say you can't be stuffed about how it all came about and then start telling people to take a hike.

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 06:08 PM
I'm not making anyone to take a hike, they can make their own minds up, we are all big boys....Seems as though a lot have.
I'd like to know how it all went down but I doubt I'll never know.

Ferrins
6th July 2014, 06:21 PM
I'm not making anyone to take a hike, they can make their own minds up, we are all big boys....Seems as though a lot have.
I'd like to know how it all went down but I doubt I'll never know.

We had a visitor.

Outcast
6th July 2014, 06:26 PM
Andy,

I've stated it privately & I'll state it publicly.. I love being a member of Ozgolf & the friends it has led me to. I've enjoyed the golfing hospitality of a number of members & had the pleasure of attending an Ozgolf Championship...

Awesome place most of the time until DHs decide to deride someones beliefs or opinion & can't or won't leave it alone after it is clear that someone has had enough.

I support your actions & you have my ongoing support for the forum.. those who don't like it should move elsewhere.. this thread should be closed & we should all now move on & resume normal (albeit more courteous) transmission...

Oh, & my offer still stands

Captain Nemo
6th July 2014, 06:26 PM
Well if someone could pm me what went down, I'd like to have a read....

Ferrins
6th July 2014, 06:32 PM
Some will applaud your decision others will detest it but most won't give a rats. This is the only forum that I attend regularly and I like it.

3oneday
6th July 2014, 06:32 PM
Yoss trolled, got banned, several others, possibly from the same state, arked up.

I blame Hocko. But hey, there are lots of forums about, make a choice. The ones that stay but then try and stir shit need to work out when they think it will become boring.

It's the net, no one really cares :)

Webster
6th July 2014, 07:10 PM
Andyp,

When the dust settles, what is going to be done differently around here?

AndyP
6th July 2014, 09:28 PM
This thread is now closed, so if you have a question, you can PM me or one of the other mods. My inbox is pretty chockers right now. We are all going to move on with the start of a new work week.

Titty asked about who the current admin/mods are. The list can be found at the bottom of the main forum page with the 'View Site Leaders' link.
http://www.ozgolf.net/showgroups.php
There has already been changes, and over the coming weeks there will be more changes. More mods are needed so we are not reliant on just a few. I have asked some members if they are interested in being a mod, and others have offered. I will look at the function that allows moderators to look after individual sub-forums, so the load can be spread. The moderation team needs to be more on top of things than what they have been to date.

I've been provided lots of ideas from many members, so I need to reread those messages, and see I can use from those.
We will be reassessing the rules, although I don't think there is too many problems there. I'll look around at other forums, as suggested.
We will assess the infraction system, but I'm pretty sure that it will be removed.
I'll be adding the rules to the registration process for new users to accept before joining, because they may not be stated there at the moment.

Thank you again for your feedback throughout this thread.

AndyP
25th July 2014, 02:11 PM
A few changes have been made to the forum over the last few weeks.

Firstly, I am now the sole owner of the website. Previously, I was responsible for the server side of things, while goughy and clikchic owned the domain name. The ownership of the domain name has now been passed to me, so it's all mine now......my own......my precious.

The infraction/point system is no longer valid. The rules sticky has not been updated to reflect this, but it will at some stage. The rules themselves still apply though and may be tweaked in the future.
http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/28404-OZgolf-Forum-Rules-and-Infraction-Points

We have a great new bunch of moderators to help keep the forum chugging along. Thank you to BenM, coalesce, jimandr, LarryLong, Outcast and shazza_rs.

Any time you need to find out who the moderators are, you can look at the following page:
http://www.ozgolf.net/showgroups.php

We are unfortunately losing a few team members too. Over the coming weeks, Courty, jarro, and KristianJ will be stepping back from their moderator/administrator duties. I thank them for the many, many hours that they have put into this website over several years; this forum would not be as great as it is, without their contribution.

Lastly, registration to the forum has now been opened again.