Non-club Based Golflink Handicaps

[sms316]

I think as long as the organisation has to comply with the same structure and conditions of competition golf, then I see no problem with it.....
Except for the fact that GA are making it easy to play competition golf without being a member of a club?

GA only care about participation and don't give a stuff about the clubs. Having said that, there is nothing stopping clubs from prohibiting QAGA members from playing in their open comps.

[Captain Nemo]

I am in that boat.
I know this has been done before in other threads but I can't afford a full membership and really don't play more than 15-20 comp games a year.
I think if I rocked up to an open comp I should pay the comp fee plus a small surcharge seeing i don't pay a full membership.

I think most clubs "incorporate" this into their visitors comp fees, which like our club is nearly double our comp fee.

[Ashes]

Except for the fact that GA are making it easy to play competition golf without being a member of a club?

Maybe clubs should start offering more affordable options to attract more golfers, rather than expecting GA to limit options to their benefit?

I can't justify $2k to be a member somewhere given I'll only play around 10 or 11 comp rounds a year (other rounds are social hits a public courses with mates).

If a course near me offered a ~$400 membership on a pay as you play basis, then I'd be signing up in a flash.

[sms316]

Maybe clubs should start offering more affordable options to attract more golfers, rather than expecting GA to limit options to their benefit?I can't justify $2k to be a member somewhere given I'll only play around 10 or 11 comp rounds a year (other rounds are social hits a public courses with mates).If a course near me offered a ~$400 membership on a pay as you play basis, then I'd be signing up in a flash.Are there no clubs in Perth that charge under $1000?

[Captain Nemo]

Correct me if im wrong but didnt actual "Golflink" offer some sort of "pay as you go" type handicap thingo a while back?

[rubin]

Are there no clubs in Perth that charge under $1000?

in the metro area that are accessible?

hell no.

[Marto65]

I am in that boat.
I know this has been done before in other threads but I can't afford a full membership and really don't play more than 15-20 comp games a year.
I think if I rocked up to an open comp I should pay the comp fee plus a small surcharge seeing i don't pay a full membership. What kind of 'small' surcharge? .. Keep in mind my club costs me $60 a week to join.

[sms316]

in the metro area that are accessible?hell no. How far would you have to travel? And don't be elitist and say that you could do it but XXX course is crap.

[Johnny Canuck]

Perth barometer is around 2k for any track within 45min of the cbd. My track is one of the cheapest options at $1700 per year.

Kennedy Bay just upped their dues a few hundred to $2050 for a new member, including bar tab. Hartfield increased their dues by $300 last year and dropped close to 100 members.

Rockingham and Chequers may be slightly cheaper. Rocko is also in dire straits financially.

[rubin]

Perth barometer is around 2k for any track within 45min of the cbd. My track is one of the cheapest options at $1700 per year.

Kennedy Bay just upped their dues a few hundred to $2050 for a new member, including bar tab. Hartfield increased their dues by $300 last year and dropped close to 100 members.

Rockingham and Chequers may be slightly cheaper. Rocko is also in dire straits financially.

Rocko is still over a grand. $1585 + the other bits and pieces.

[TheNuclearOne]

Perth barometer is around 2k for any track within 45min of the cbd. My track is one of the cheapest options at $1700 per year.

Kennedy Bay just upped their dues a few hundred to $2050 for a new member, including bar tab. Hartfield increased their dues by $300 last year and dropped close to 100 members.

Rockingham and Chequers may be slightly cheaper. Rocko is also in dire straits financially.


Jeeeeeeeeez.

[rubin]

I guess that is why Howlong GC have done so well with their country option. There are a lot of open midweek comps in SEQ. A person can pay a pittance for handicap maintenance and then play all over the place.

If that sort of thing continues they won't have as many clubs to play at.

I think clubs tried that here with the PGN. but many have or are changing to accomodate them. Reduced green fees is better than no green fees at all.

[Captain Nemo]

I guess that is why Howlong GC have done so well with their country option. There are a lot of open midweek comps in SEQ. A person can pay a pittance for handicap maintenance and then play all over the place.

If that sort of thing continues they won't have as many clubs to play at.

I have at least 4 mates here in Sydney that do a similar thing but with Botany G.C
Dog of a 9 holer, but cheap membership and they give you xxx amount of bar tab included in your subs (can get takeaways etc...)
All of them cant play saturdays as they are real estate agents, Firey's, baggage handlers etc.... so just go and play open comps on their days off!

[3Puttpete]

SMS,

How much do you pay on the day to play in a comp at your club and how much do visitors pay?

[sms316]

SMS,

How much do you pay on the day to play in a comp at your club and how much do visitors pay?
$10 for me. $65 (I think) for a guest. Only way a non-member can play in the comp is to be invited by a member.

[graham_w]

Isn't there a market for both ? Don't clubs get money through memberships and then also try and get more visitors paying green fees as part of their overall income ?

Is one more important than the other ? They both contribute to the bottom line, don't they ?

Would it be better if someone stopped playing golf and didn't contribute any money whatsoever ?

[Marto65]

Isn't there a market for both ? Don't clubs get money through memberships and then also try and get more visitors paying green fees as part of their overall income ?

Is one more important than the other ? They both contribute to the bottom line, don't they ?

Would it be better if someone stopped playing golf altogether and didn't contribute any money whatsoever ?

You cant just stop playing golf ... that's like saying I'm going to stop eating, or taking heroin.

[popper81]

Is this the new bleat thread?

Can we bring up handicap manipulation yet?

How long until someone mentions the word "sandbagger"?

[Marto65]

Is this the new bleat thread?

Can we bring up handicap manipulation yet?

How long until someone mentions the word "sandbagger"? I knew someone would bring up The Bleat. I see it as recognition of a great thread.

[popper81]

I knew someone would bring up The Bleat. I see it as recognition of a great thread.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is was...

[Ashes]

This kind of membership and golf participation is the future for golf and all clubs need to embrace it because that is what the punters want. The 25-50 "age group is not committing to membership because they don't know how much time they have to play"

^ this

Perth Golf Network now runs comps at 5 different private courses because those clubs need the $ and haven't worked out how to capture the more casual comp golfers themselves.

[Pieface]

I think it is faulty logic to reason someone "cheaping out" to get a non-club based membership can be forced to join a club by restricting or cancelling them. You just lose another golfer out of the system and say goodbye to that sweet, sweet green fee + whatever they spend on the pro-shop/bar/cafe etc.

[Yossarian]

^ this

Perth Golf Network now runs comps at 5 different private courses because those clubs need the $ and haven't worked out how to capture the more casual comp golfers themselves.

You mean the "aww yeah just drop it there mate" type of golfer?

[markTHEblake]

So if I'm not a member of a club, get a handicap through QAGA and decide I have the time to play a dozen comp rounds a year at different courses, i don't have to pay green fees or comp fees?Sweet deal! Count me in.No. You will might get a concession on green fees if you play in a comp. though I would hope all golf clubs refuse to discount greenfees to any golfer who is not a Full member of another club. I believe Nudgee and Gailes already do this or they just recognise a certain el cheapo membership that is commonly used.

[Ashes]

You mean the "aww yeah just drop it there mate" type of golfer?

Lol - So there aren't members at private tracks that are flexible with the rules, or apply a leather wedge here and there?

I was thinking more in terms of regularity of play though. I could have said "less regular", but then you probably would have assume I meant constipated!

[Yossarian]

Lol - So there aren't members at private tracks that are flexible with the rules, or apply a leather wedge here and there?

I was thinking more in terms of regularity of play though. I could have said "less regular", but then you probably would have assume I meant constipated!

Don't PGN allow you to drop it "around" where you last saw it?

[Ashes]

Don't PGN allow you to drop it "around" where you last saw it?

PGN are using the same rules your seniors club do. What have you the idea they allow that?

[Yossarian]

Someone here posted it once. It might have been me sledging your gypsy club.

[IanO]

I belong to a Social Golf club that plays 14 rounds of golf a year (11 monthly games plus 3 on a weekend away), usually on 13 or 14 different courses. Currently about half the members do not have membership at any club and do not have regular handicaps. The club has its own handicapping system (similar to the previous official system) and everyone plays off their Social Club handicap. We discussed registering the club so that our members could get a "real" handicap and have all our handicaps managed through the official system. We decided not to go down that track due to the amount of effort involved and the fact that we have a number of older members who have club handicaps of 40+, which would not be sustainable in an official system.

Ben, I also hope it works for you and allows people who would not play enough to warrant a golf club membership to continue to play a bit and have a real handicap.

PS. I am a full fee 7 day member at my home club

[Shadesy]

I offered Yoss a gimmee today.

He declined.

[IanO]

If you offer someone a gimme for a halve of the hole and instead of picking up they knock it towards the hole and miss does the Half stand or do they lose the hole?

[TheNuclearOne]

If you offer someone a gimme for a halve of the hole and instead of picking up they knock it towards the hole and miss does the Half stand or do they lose the hole?

I was told yes the other day by a matchplay fanatic.

[TheNuclearOne]

Apparently he was wrong.

[LeftyHoges]

If you offer someone a gimme for a halve of the hole and instead of picking up they knock it towards the hole and miss does the Half stand or do they lose the hole?

The half stands.

Once an offer of concession of the putt has been made everything else is null and void.

[Pieface]

Someone here posted it once. It might have been me sledging your gypsy club.

I'm sure the net profits from your country membership a while back kept the place afloat Yoss.

[Yossarian]

I'm sure the net profits from your country membership a while back kept the place afloat Yoss.

What place? I'm not really sure of your point here. I did in fact rort the system somewhat.

[Pieface]

I'm just trying to say no to gypsy on gypsy violence.

[Jackson]

Being a member of a social club (PGN) is allowing me to save my money up to join a higher cost club rather than take whatever free noms deal a struggling club is offering.
So PGN membership will mean I end up putting more money into club golf!

[IanO]

The half stands.

Once an offer of concession of the putt has been made everything else is null and void.

Thanks Lefty

[LeftyHoges]

Thanks Lefty

No probs mate.

Still have to be on guard to really listen to what your opponent says though. I've had some bastards in my time who were very careful about how they worded things so as to sound like they were giving the putt but weren't really.

I guess what I'm saying is if in doubt, ask.

[Outcast]

I can see Jack's point but, I don't agree with what I interpret as his belief that this is wrong & should not be allowed.

Clearly what QAGA, PGN & other social clubs of this ilk are providing is a service that people want as an alternative to full golfing membership at a club.

Smart clubs would recognise this need & put something in place to attract this market. Rather than insisting that if you want to play at my club you must shell out full membership fees, a smart club would have a nominal fee & then insist that if you want to play at the club you must pay green fees & comp fees.

The market is already there & it's not going to go away. Surely clubs would be wiser to embrace the new market & generate additional turnover for their clubs rather than insisting on full membership & potentially missing out on a growing market.

Just my thoughts.... Market opportunity here for the smart clubs...

Edit: Paradise Palms here in Cairns offers a broad range of memberships; one option is to pay around $250 (I think), which gets you a discounted rate for green fees, a shirt, a free round & an AGU handicap. Smart business approach, cater to a market demand.

[Yossarian]

The member clubs are allowing it by not offering a service some clearly want.

I'm surprised you're so pro-regulation.

You could go play with social groups around wembley or other public tracks. They also give you a handicap.

What you guys want is the benefits of a private membership without the costs associated.

[Jackson]

Maybe its because Im new to the game that I don't understand, but can someone explain why an official handicap should only be available to private club members?

[Ashes]

You could go play with social groups around wembley or other public tracks. They also give you a handicap.

What you guys want is the benefits of a private membership without the costs associated.

What benefits are you referring to?

[Yossarian]

What benefits are you referring to?

If you don't know I'm not going to tell you.

[Vice MC]

Maybe its because Im new to the game that I don't understand, but can someone explain why an official handicap should only be available to private club members?

Its a class thing..

[Jackson]

Its a class thing..

But I've met plenty of private club members with no class!

[Ashes]

If everyone started to do things like this there would be no clubs to play at

If this was true, there would be clubs going under left, right and centre in Perth.

[Ashes]

You could go play with social groups around wembley or other public tracks. They also give you a handicap.

What you guys want is the benefits of a private membership without the costs associated.

Why is it an issue for social clubs to use Golflink? Private clubs can still refuse access to QAGA/PGN types if they wish.

The only guaranteed benefit of a QAGA/PGN type membership is a handicap an access to those groups events. Everything else is at the discretion of the clubs and they can refuse access if they don't think it's in their interests.

[goughy]

As someone who can't currently afford to join my club, even though pretty cheap. I've wondered often about joining one of these groups so I could participate in the odd ozgolf day etc. But I know I'd want to play more often then and that would be locally. With only 2 clubs to choose from, and being semi known at one I'd feel rude trying to play there. So I just don't play.

That's just me, and I have no issue with these things or people that use them. But me, I just like to support my club. Heck, I still think of it as my club.

[mike]

I can appreciate the arguments from both sides. Fortunately/unfortunately this style of membership is here to stay.

[Outcast]

I can appreciate the arguments from both sides. Fortunately/unfortunately this style of membership is here to stay.

Agree; which is why most clubs need to pull their heads out of their collective butts & meet the market...

This is how you achieve success in any business enterprise not by complaining about how unfair it is...

You want to generate turnover & raise profits.... easy, just meet the market just like every other successful business enterprise is doing

[Marto65]

So Outcast ...

As I said earlier, which no one replied to ... How much should someone pay for green fees to play in the comp at my club? It costs me about $60 a week to be a member.

Do they just want to pay a comp fee to play in a midweek comp? Sunday Mornings? .. How much for the showers and the upkeep of the facilities? How much for the nice gardens that have been maintained? How much for the equipment to make sure the course is in pristine condition, not to mention the wages of the staff?
What is a fair price? $120 + Comp Fees?

[Outcast]

So Outcast ...

As I said earlier, which no one replied to ... How much should someone pay for green fees to play in the comp at my club? It costs me about $60 a week to be a member.

Do they just want to pay a comp fee to play in a midweek comp? Sunday Mornings? .. How much for the showers and the upkeep of the facilities? How much for the nice gardens that have been maintained? How much for the equipment to make sure the course is in pristine condition, not to mention the wages of the staff?
What is a fair price? $120 + Comp Fees?

Marto,

A fair question to which I don't think there is one 'single' answer.

You have raised a valid point & I think individual clubs would need to decide what they think the 'casual' rate should be.

If I come to play at your club as a member of another club, how much would I pay to play in your comp? Is it just comp fees or do I pay green fees as well?

The one example I can cite is Paradise Palms:

If I am not a member at any level I pay around $120 for the round plus comp fees; if I pay for one of the membership options on offer ($150 is the cheapest I think but, PP don't maintain your handicap for that), it is $65 plus comp fees.

I think it depends on individual clubs; if you want to be a 'casual' member of an upmarket club then you should expect to pay upmarket green fees; the club has to be able to make something out of this, it's not a free service or just a way to get more people in...

I have no issue with the fact that clubs need to get something out of this too... I just think there is too much whining & not enough enterprise..

[Ashes]

So Outcast ...

As I said earlier, which no one replied to ... How much should someone pay for green fees to play in the comp at my club? It costs me about $60 a week to be a member.

Do they just want to pay a comp fee to play in a midweek comp? Sunday Mornings? .. How much for the showers and the upkeep of the facilities? How much for the nice gardens that have been maintained? How much for the equipment to make sure the course is in pristine condition, not to mention the wages of the staff?
What is a fair price? $120 + Comp Fees?

Wouldn't the club decide for itself what's fair, and then it's up to the punters whether they play or not?

[Jackson]

So Outcast ...

As I said earlier, which no one replied to ... How much should someone pay for green fees to play in the comp at my club? It costs me about $60 a week to be a member.

Do they just want to pay a comp fee to play in a midweek comp? Sunday Mornings? .. How much for the showers and the upkeep of the facilities? How much for the nice gardens that have been maintained? How much for the equipment to make sure the course is in pristine condition, not to mention the wages of the staff?
What is a fair price? $120 + Comp Fees?


Is one day of comp golf the only benefit you get from being a member of your club?
Your $60 gets you more than just a handicap and one comp day surely?

[meh]

Is one day of comp golf the only benefit you get from being a member of your club?
Your $60 gets you more than just a handicap and one comp day surely?

Exactly right.

[Nug300]

I think it would only be good for clubs

One it allows a person who cant afford the full membership amount a chance to play in competitions at various clubs, maybe giving that person an insight in to which club they may like to join when the CAN afford to become a full member. Plus there are people out there who dont like to play the same course everytime.

As a recent full member of a club here in Canberra, i wouldnt expect that if i wanted to play comp at another course in the area i would only pay comp fees, i would expect to pay green fees PLUS a comp fee. Not sure why people would expect otherwise.

Would be the same if i wanted a social game at a different club/non recipricol, you pay the full amount, not a discount cause you hold an AGU Hcp.

Whilst i understand the importance of supporting a club, and do so now, surely giving people this sort of option is good for golf and getting more people to participate.

As mentioned above, maybe Golf Clubs themselves need to come up with a few more options to accomodate a broader range of participants to help the cashflow instead of the normal, 5 6 7 day and junior categories.

[Pieface]

So how many club members do guys like Jack et al think they have lost to organisations offering a handicap like this in the last couple of years?

By and large I would think most PGN-type members either have an existing club membership or aspire to one if they were not constrained financially or timewise.

The more involved you get with a group like this the easier it becomes to justify the cost of joining a members track.

If members tracks took a different view and saw these clubs as opportunities to market themselves to prospective customers they could profit from their involvement even further.

[markTHEblake]

If members tracks took a different view and saw these clubs as opportunities to market themselves to prospective customers they could profit from their involvement even further. They already do, and those who do not don't have to. In some cases clubs might need to so better marketing but that does not mean they do not recognise the opportunity.

[kiwitown]

I have to say they i agree with Ben on this, while members are the main stream of golf clubs, green fee playing non members and social players/clubs are as important too as they bring extra revenue to the club through the volume of numbers they can bring at any one time. I am a full playing memeber of a golf club and i belong to a social club who do the rounds every month in the Wollongong area. We bring 40 players once a month who pay there green fees buy balls etc have their prize giving at the club over a few beers and 50% of us would eat at the bistro...extra income for the club on the day. On any given Saturday at my club 70% of players would walk off the 18th green straight to there cars and off home, not pouring any extra income into the club at all. If members from something like Bens club could play at our course and bring in some extra revenue why wouldn't you support it. Seniors get discounted memberships play 3 times week and never set foot in the bar and Juniors get discounted memberships practice all day and dont spend on food and drinks, Revenue keeps clubs alive...bottom line.

[CobraSS]

As someone who can't currently afford to join my club, even though pretty cheap. I've wondered often about joining one of these groups so I could participate in the odd ozgolf day etc. But I know I'd want to play more often then and that would be locally. With only 2 clubs to choose from, and being semi known at one I'd feel rude trying to play there. So I just don't play.

That's just me, and I have no issue with these things or people that use them. But me, I just like to support my club. Heck, I still think of it as my club.

You could join a real club close by very cheaply, join my old stomping ground "Oakey" for about $150.00, they would appreciate the money. And it's not a bad 9 hole track to have a hit at.

[Vice MC]

You could join a real club close by very cheaply, join my old stomping ground "Oakey" for about $150.00, they would appreciate the money. And it's not a bad 9 hole track to have a hit at.

Or Goombungee

[mike]

There's such a place as Goombungee? lol

[meh]

I have to say they i agree with Ben on this, while members are the main stream of golf clubs, green fee playing non members and social players/clubs are as important too as they bring extra revenue to the club through the volume of numbers they can bring at any one time. I am a full playing memeber of a golf club and i belong to a social club who do the rounds every month in the Wollongong area. We bring 40 players once a month who pay there green fees buy balls etc have their prize giving at the club over a few beers and 50% of us would eat at the bistro...extra income for the club on the day. On any given Saturday at my club 70% of players would walk off the 18th green straight to there cars and off home, not pouring any extra income into the club at all. If members from something like Bens club could play at our course and bring in some extra revenue why wouldn't you support it. Seniors get discounted memberships play 3 times week and never set foot in the bar and Juniors get discounted memberships practice all day and dont spend on food and drinks, Revenue keeps clubs alive...bottom line.

Very well put.

[CobraSS]

There's such a place as Goombungee? lol



https://maps.google.com.au/maps?aq=&rlz=1T4NDKB_enAU514AU514&q=goombungee&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

yep, and it has a decent 9 hole track too

[Dcanto]

I laughed when my wife told me she went to school in Boggabilla.

[sms316]

I have to say they i agree with Ben on this, while members are the main stream of golf clubs, green fee playing non members and social players/clubs are as important too as they bring extra revenue to the club through the volume of numbers they can bring at any one time. I am a full playing memeber of a golf club and i belong to a social club who do the rounds every month in the Wollongong area. We bring 40 players once a month who pay there green fees buy balls etc have their prize giving at the club over a few beers and 50% of us would eat at the bistro...extra income for the club on the day. On any given Saturday at my club 70% of players would walk off the 18th green straight to there cars and off home, not pouring any extra income into the club at all. If members from something like Bens club could play at our course and bring in some extra revenue why wouldn't you support it. Seniors get discounted memberships play 3 times week and never set foot in the bar and Juniors get discounted memberships practice all day and dont spend on food and drinks, Revenue keeps clubs alive...bottom line. You've completely missed the point.

[kiwitown]

But giving them access to a handicap through golf link hurts no one.....

[sms316]

But giving them access to a handicap through golf link hurts no one..... Nonsense. Playing social club golf is one thing but playing open competition against club members is another. Clubs need to grow a pair collectively and this sort of membership will go away.

[Ashes]

Nonsense. Playing social club golf is one thing but playing open competition against club members is another. Clubs need to grow a pair collectively and this sort of membership will go away.

Why is it an issue? Still waiting for a rational argument from someone.

[PeteyD]

If they pay full green fees and comp fees it is not an issue as far as I can see. They are paying what social golfers pay and maintaining a handicap.

[Jackson]

Nonsense. Playing social club golf is one thing but playing open competition against club members is another. Clubs need to grow a pair collectively and this sort of membership will go away.

Your arguments sound exactly like those of the pro-anchoring people, all based on emotion and entitlement.

[TheNuclearOne]

Your arguments sound exactly like those of the pro-anchoring people, all based on emotion and entitlement.

Jeez, you sure know where to hit the big fella to hurt him don't ya :lol:

[Johnny Canuck]

Your arguments sound exactly like those of the pro-anchoring people, all based on emotion and entitlement. You are however entitled to certain rights when being a member of a private club.

[Johnny Canuck]

Out of curiousity, for those that support the social club players being able to play in club comps, should they also be permitted to enter major events, that already carry restrictions such as the player must have weekend playing rights at an A,B or C class club?

[Jackson]

You are however entitled to certain rights when being a member of a private club.

Of course, and I wouldn't expect to be able to enter major club competitions, have access to club facilities nor get any discounts that apply to club members for drinks, equipment etc etc. nor would I expect to be given a spot I'm a comp at the expense of a member of that club.
However is it such a bad thing if I pay $60 for a round of golf in a regular comp day that the club can clearly not fill due to lack of members or lack of member attendance?
That's $60 the club was never going to get otherwise. And the clubs obviously need it, otherwise they wouldn't be opening their doors.

As for tournaments or major comp days that have restrictions based on club class, then I agree, social clubs should be bottom of the 'rankings' and only be given spots if they can't be filled by those from private member tracks. You get what you pay for after all.

[Ashes]

Out of curiousity, for those that support the social club players being able to play in club comps, should they also be permitted to enter major events, that already carry restrictions such as the player must have weekend playing rights at an A,B or C class club?

No they shouldn't. The only rights they should have is to play in their groups comps; whether they can access comps at other clubs should be up to the respective clubs.

[meh]

Why is it an issue? Still waiting for a rational argument from someone.

Don't hold your breath.

[Minor_Threat]

I'm with the anti social club brigade on this one.

GA handicap access of this kind undermines golf courses and their ability to operate. By all means get GA access, but it should only be available to use during social club events.

There is nothing wrong with these "prospective" members from paying social fees to try out courses. Why do you need to play in the comp to find out if you like a place?

[Pieface]

Why can't the clubs in question restrict access to their open comp MT? Does the golflink system not identify the membership class?

[goughy]

I thought these systems only allowed you to play in open comps? Can they play in the usual comps as well/champs etc?

[Marto65]

I thought these systems only allowed you to play in open comps? Can they play in the usual comps as well/champs etc?

I imagine they have their own social club champs, which brings a few other questions.

Like ... Should their social club be able to put forward someone for the State Champion of Champions? Should they be allowed to play Vardon (QLD=Angus Buchanan) events? Should they be allowed to enter qualifying for the British/Australian/Queensland Open ?

[Ashes]

I imagine they have their own social club champs, which brings a few other questions.

Like ... Should their social club be able to put forward someone for the State Champion of Champions? Should they be allowed to play Vardon (QLD=Angus Buchanan) events? Should they be allowed to enter qualifying for the British/Australian/Queensland Open ?

No, no, and no.

[Marto65]

Why not Ashes? ... They are a registered golf club, and like you said earlier, you don't have to have a course to be a golf club ...

[Ashes]

Why not Ashes? ... They are a registered golf club, and like you said earlier, you don't have to have a course to be a golf club ...

From what I gather, they're run on private courses for private club members. I don't have an issue with that.

On the other hand, if a private club wants to run a big event and allow access to the event to anyone with a Golflink cap, well I don't see the issue with that either.

[Marto65]

No Ashes, Most of those events are run by subsidiaries of Golf Australia.

[Ashes]

No Ashes, Most of those events are run by subsidiaries of Golf Australia.

Are they not limited to members of A or B clubs with weekend or Saturday playing rights? That is the situation over here as far as I'm aware. If not, then I'd agree that's an issue worth looking at.

My position is that non-private clubs or groups should be allowed access to Golflink, and have the right to play comps organised by their own group. If private clubs want to allow them into their own comps on a green fee paying basis, then that is for each club to decide. On that basis, I don't see it doing anything but benefiting golf and certainly don't see it harming private clubs (which are can offer a similar package if they wish).

[Marto65]

I haven't seen a Vardon entry form for one of these for a while .... but I'm pretty sure they would just say that you need an AGU Handicap of 6.5 or under(as an example) and a member of a golf club?

As for Australian Open qualifying .. it would only be under 2.0 or so.

So .. not wanting to discriminate ... these guys are members of a golf club (under your definition) ... why cant they tee it up?

[Bruce Dickinson]

here's GA's participation plan 2013-2016, its interesting reading.

http://admin.golfaustralia.org.au/site/_content/document/00014546-source.pdf

[Ashes]

I haven't seen a Vardon entry form for one of these for a while .... but I'm pretty sure they would just say that you need an AGU Handicap of 6.5 or under(as an example) and a member of a golf club?

As for Australian Open qualifying .. it would only be under 2.0 or so.

So .. not wanting to discriminate ... these guys are members of a golf club (under your definition) ... why cant they tee it up?

As I said, I understood that there were different categories of golf clubs*, and that certain events were restricted to members from certain categories of club. I have no problem with that.

Pretty simply, I think having an option for affordable access to a legitimate cap and comp golf (even if limited to your own club/groups comp) is a good thing for the game and won't steal a significant number of members from private clubs. I don't think members of those sorts of groups should expect the ability to enter significant events or other clubs comps, unless the relevant bodies think its in their interests to allow it.

At some point I'll join a private club, which would probably never have happened if I didn't have the opportunity to get into comp golf through something like the PGN.

Marto, Mandurah Country Club (private club with their own track and junior program) have a $150 Sunday membership that includes a golflink cap and access to Sunday comps at 1/2 price green fees, and comps on other days if there is space at full green fee. Out of curiosity, do you think someone with this sort of membership should have access to the events you mentioned?

* for the record, I don't see the PGN as a club, it's a commercial enterprise.

[Minor_Threat]

Why can't the clubs in question restrict access to their open comp MT? Does the golflink system not identify the membership class?

I believe this is already happening and I think more and more clubs will restrict these membership types from playing in their comps, open or not.

[Ashes]

I believe this is already happening and I think more and more clubs will restrict these membership types from playing in their comps, open or not.

Seems to be going the other way in Perth. Clubs were restricting but are relaxing.

I just hope it prompts clubs to provide more flexible options.

[markTHEblake]

Marto, Mandurah Country Club (private club with their own track and junior program) have a $150 Sunday membership that includes a golflink cap and access to Sunday comps at 1/2 price green fees, and comps on other days if there is space at full green fee. Out of curiosity, do you think someone with this sort of membership should have access to the events you mentioned? No. Some Golf Clubs reciprocate to provide concessions to other club members, the intention being that is one of the benefits of joining a golf club. I do not believe such concessions should be given to those who take up limited memberships. So such a class of member should expect no green fee discount when playing elsewhere.

Events run by GA or the States are different because by nature they are "open" and everyone pays the same fee even if the event is on their home course.

[AndyP]

The thread was removed temporarily to tidy-up for the discussion to be about non-club based handicaps in general.

------------

Personally, I question if I would be a full member of a club now or even playing golf, if they didn't exist.

[golfbound]

The thread was removed temporarily to tidy-up for the discussion to be about non-club based handicaps in general.

------------

Personally, I question if I would be a full member of a club now or even playing golf, if they didn't exist.

Thanks Andy
My posted were removed due to a complaint from one of the members on here to one of the governing bodies, out of respect to Golf QLD, GA and also to the game I had asked for my posts to be removed.

[Webster]

It's a pity that a lot of the good discussion points (from both sides) are now gone, the thread doesn't make much sense now.

[golfbound]

Yep thanks Jack

[TheNuclearOne]

Thanks Andy
My posted were removed due to a complaint from one of the members on here to one of the governing bodies, out of respect to Golf QLD, GA and also to the game I had asked for my posts to be removed.

Wow, just wow.

[rubin]

Having been a member of a club previously, and now the PGN I can understand both sides.

Personally, if the courses that are local to me did not have such high nomination fees ($5k plus) i would be a member at a local club. The yearly fee's are reasonable (2ish k a year) and with the other bits and pieces you get with joining a club, it would be worthwhile.

I left my last club for 2 reasons. Firstly, I had stopped playing basically, and my 2 rounds at the club after membership renewal had cost me approx. $600 a round (based on membership costs).

What coinsides with this, is what i believe to be the single biggest issue facing golf. Time.

The population is, as a whole, becoming increasingly more time poor. The people that would be looking at club membership (blokes around my/Yoss' age - mid to late 20's) simply don't join because they don't have the time to make it worthwhile.

As an example. In my current role, i would work roughly 55hr weeks, commonly going in to work on a Saturday and/or Sunday, working back late on week days etc. Then we have to fit in time to see Family, Girlfriends (Boyfriends if your that way inclined), Friends, Fitness and then Golf. When Golf takes about 6hrs out of a day (Leave home, get to the course 20 -30 mins before for a chip and a putt, 4hr round, drink or two, pack up the car, go home) it's hard to make it fit. I know for me, where it was the top of the list a few years ago, it has, for all these other commitments, dropped to down near the bottom.

I know all of you older guys think that these social clubs are ruining the game/clubs etc - but lets face it, you have the time now being in either more senior positions, retired or working for yourself, to be able to get out play more and make joining a club worthwhile. those of us starting or in the middle of the workforce who are the ones who are meant to be growing the game, don't have the same opportunities, Thus making these social based clubs/events a far more reasonable option.

I agree 100% with Ashes, those of us that are members of these social type clubs shouldn't be allowed to participate in the large/major events (Vardon events, Open Qualifying etc) and I also agree that clubs have the right to not allow them for their own comps, if they don't want to.

I don't however see what the issue is when the guys that have joined these clubs probably wouldn't be playing much/at all if they weren't an option.

[sms316]

Thanks Andy
My posted were removed due to a complaint from one of the members on here to one of the governing bodies, out of respect to Golf QLD, GA and also to the game I had asked for my posts to be removed.
Are you sure the complaint came from a forum member or could it have come from some random who saw it?

[Vice MC]

I dunno i think thats a bit general...Im 29 and work full time and manage to play most wknds.

[Webster]

I almost feel sorry for you Rubin after that tear jerker...

[rubin]

I almost feel sorry for you Rubin after that tear jerker...

missed the point again.

I know your trying to shit stir as usual though, and don't really expect much more from you these days.

[rubin]

I dunno i think thats a bit general...Im 29 and work full time and manage to play most wknds.

it is general, but also from what i know of WA. I also think your the exception (as was I until the end of last year) rather than the rule.

[Webster]

missed the point again.

I know exactly what your point is Rubin - you want club membership golf on a social golf budget.

[rubin]

I know exactly what your point is Rubin - you want club membership golf on a social golfer budget.

far from it. perhaps you should re-read what i wrote, in fact, i'll even quote it for you to make it easier:


Personally, if the courses that are local to me did not have such high nomination fees ($5k plus) i would be a member at a local club. The yearly fee's are reasonable (2ish k a year) and with the other bits and pieces you get with joining a club, it would be worthwhile.


Pretty sure social golf clubs don't charge 2k+ a year for memberships

[golfbound]

isn't the aim of the game to get more people to play???? and social clubs issueing handicaps should not be a problem. I dont really understand how you can discriminate agains a club because it doesn't own a course.

If we were to buy a course would it then be ok

[Monsta]

Rubes,

While you make a valid point, I think its about commitment to the game. I have played golf both in my early years (late 20's) with a wife and newborn son, full time job and all the other responsibilities that come along, still managed to play once a week.
Now a bit older, still work full time for someone else, but still play golf and as a full paying member of a club I think that if someone wants to play in comp golf they need to be a member of a club, if they are a member of a social golf organisation, they play social golf....

[Webster]

Pretty sure social golf clubs don't charge 2k+ a year for memberships

Then don't be scummy and pay the $5k then. Or make some sacrifices to your lifestyle to be able to play more golf. You can't have it both ways.

[Vice MC]

Or just play social golf? If you don't get any time whats the point of even playing comp?

[Webster]

isn't the aim of the game to get more people to play???? and social clubs issueing handicaps should not be a problem. I dont really understand how you can discriminate agains a club because it doesn't own a course.

If we were to buy a course would it then be ok

Ben, if you just got your arse kicked by GQ, deleted all the posts, why are you going on about this again? It's not about discriminating, its about you offering cut price Golflinks to the market, wrapped up as a charitable donation, which hurts club who have overheads to cover and can't compete with you at the price.

If QAGA bought their own course would all the memberships be $110 per year?

[rubin]

Then don't be scummy and pay the $5k then. Or make some sacrifices to your lifestyle to be able to play more golf. You can't have it both ways.

Considering you are yet to tell anyone this - how do these clubs affect you Jack? as in you personally? It's not like they are taking tee times away from you, or restricting your access. In pretty much every social club i've seen, they welcome anyone to join in on their days.....

And in addition, how does it hurt clubs when people that take these memberships are highly unlikely to purchase full memberships anyway (for whatever reason)


Or just play social golf? If you don't get any time whats the point of even playing comp?
i like the test.

[mrbluu]

As someone who can't currently afford to join my club, even though pretty cheap. I've wondered often about joining one of these groups so I could participate in the odd ozgolf day etc. But I know I'd want to play more often then and that would be locally. With only 2 clubs to choose from, and being semi known at one I'd feel rude trying to play there. So I just don't play.

That's just me, and I have no issue with these things or people that use them. But me, I just like to support my club. Heck, I still think of it as my club.

If you get the cheapy membership and play the occasional comp around at the club then spend money in the clubhouse then you are still supporting your club.

[golfbound]

Ben, if you just got your arse kicked by GQ, deleted all the posts, why are you going on about this again? It's not about discriminating, its about you offering cut price Golflinks to the market, wrapped up as a charitable donation, which hurts club who have overheads to cover and can't compete with you at the price.

If QAGA bought their own course would all the memberships be $110 per year?

Its not a charible donation if you had of read my post it was any moneies over the cost of the golf link would be a donation. $110 is about the cost of golflink and if clubs offered this as an option there wouldnt be a problem. The person with this golflink still pays full green fees and comp fee.

And i didnt get my arse kicked by GQ and how would you know if it was Golf Q or GA unless you were the one that complained

Mate get a life.......

[markTHEblake]

Rubin you are partly correct with this

The population is, as a whole, becoming increasingly more time poor. The people that would be looking at club membership (blokes around my/Yoss' age - mid to late 20's) simply don't join because they don't have the time to make it worthwhile.

In my lifetime of playing golf, since 1980 this has always being the case, the golfers 20's to 40's did not play golf unless they are very good and I imagine its been like that for almost ever.

It's a generalisation I know because there will always be the odd exception. The difference now is that there is more opportunity for this demographic to play casually than there was in the pre-resort course era.

[Webster]

Considering you are yet to tell anyone this - how do these clubs affect you Jack? as in you personally? It's not like they are taking tee times away from you, or restricting your access. In pretty much every social club i've seen, they welcome anyone to join in on their days.....

And in addition, how does it hurt clubs when people that take these memberships are highly unlikely to purchase full memberships anyway (for whatever reason).

Rubin, I explained all of this in the posts that were deleted to protect Bens organisation. So here goes again.

This is not a personal issue for me, I only have the best interests of the game at heart.. I have no issue whatsoever with social groups. I'm all for as many people as possible getting out there and playing the game. I do however have a massive issue with Golf Australia making available golfink handicaps to social players who are not financial members of golf clubs. I believe that if you wish to participate in the game on a competitive basis, you must be a member of a golf club, not a social club.

I don't agree with the contention that by being able to have a social club golfink that it makes it easier for someone to then transition to joining a golf club (at a higher price). In fact, I believe the opposite - that by being able to get a cheap golfink from a social or charity group disinscetivizes people from joining clubs, because they can get the benefits of a handicap and competition golf without making a contribution to the clubs. Furthermore, the existence of non club based golflinks allow current club members to opt out of a higher priced current membership which in turn hurts the clubs financially and puts pressure of the quality of service that the club can offer. I have already seen this happen and it will only get worse for the clubs who simply cannot compete on the price level that social clubs can.

Golf Australia should never have allowed this to happen. They should be promoting social golf, but only allowing handicaps to be available through the golf clubs, not social groups or charities.

Feel free to disagree.

[mike]

Its not a charible donation if you had of read my post it was any moneies over the cost of the golf link would be a donation. $110 is about the cost of golflink and if clubs offered this as an option there wouldnt be a problem. The person with this golflink still pays full green fees and comp fee.

And i didnt get my arse kicked by GQ and how would you know if it was Golf Q or GA unless you were the one that complained

Mate get a life.......Back in 2006 I was behind the push for our club to enter the 21st century and sign up for Golflink. Cost was $2.50 +GST per member. Has it really gone up that much?

[rubin]

Back in 2006 I was behind the push for our club to enter the 21st century and sign up for Golflink. Cost was $2.50 +GST per member. Has it really gone up that much?

knowing the cost of the insurance - i thought the $110 was a discounted rate QAGA managed to score.

[Webster]

Its not a charible donation if you had of read my post it was any moneies over the cost of the golf link would be a donation. $110 is about the cost of golflink and if clubs offered this as an option there wouldnt be a problem.

Does it really cost all of $110 Ben? Whats the breakup , considering Golflink is $2.50, GQ $40, GA $15. Where does the rest go considering you said "we are not making any money out of this"


And i didnt get my arse kicked by GQ and how would you know if it was Golf Q or GA unless you were the one that complained

You'd be surprised who I know Ben, golf administration is a pretty is a small world. And for the record it wasn't me who dobbed you in, but I applaud the person who did it for making the call, as I consider that you did the wrong thing.


Mate get a life.......

And then we have this. Which, considering how well you have conducted yourself in the discussion up until now, is disappointing and a poor reflection on your character. I'm temped to just tell you to get @#$%'ed, but that would lower me to your level and be frowned upon by the mods, so I will just think it instead of saying it.

[golfbound]

Jack $110 is what we get billed i dont know where it all goes.

What part was wrong

[Monsta]

I see it this way.......

If you want to play competition sport, no matter what the sport, you are made to join a club. I have played tennis, squash, baseball, hockey and golf. Each sport required me to join an affiliated club to play competition. The costs involve not only the comp fees but the running and organisation of the games, ie umpires etc. Why should a social group be allowed to bypass the "club" but be entitled to all the benefits????? (IMO)

[Ashes]

I see it this way.......

If you want to play competition sport, no matter what the sport, you are made to join a club. I have played tennis, squash, baseball, hockey and golf. Each sport required me to join an affiliated club to play competition. The costs involve not only the comp fees but the running and organisation of the games, ie umpires etc. Why should a social group be allowed to bypass the "club" but be entitled to all the benefits????? (IMO)

Pretty ordinary comparison. There are plenty of sporting clubs you can join that don't run their own facilities etc. Many cricket/footy clubs pay a fee to hire public grounds for the game, not really much different to paying green fees.

[rubin]

If we assume that a social golfer plays every week, once a week at the same course. 60 a week for green fees, plus 110 for handicap. That's $3230 a year and probably a bit more than what u pay in memberships.

I think they're giving back to the club.

[sms316]

If we assume that a social golfer plays every week, once a week at the same course. 60 a week for green fees, plus 110 for handicap. That's $3230 a year and probably a bit more than what u pay in memberships.

I think they're giving back to the club.
That is one very impressive assumption. Especially for people who are so "time poor".

[Monsta]

Pretty ordinary comparison. There are plenty of sporting clubs you can join that don't run their own facilities etc. Many cricket/footy clubs pay a fee to hire public grounds for the game, not really much different to paying green fees.

You said it Ashes, you still join the club. While they dont own a sporting field, if you want to play in their comp, you join their club.

[Ashes]

You said it Ashes, you still join the club. While they dont own a sporting field, if you want to play in their comp, you join their club.

So do the social golfers we're talking about. It's just not a club that runs a private course.

[TheNuclearOne]

You said it Ashes, you still join the club. While they dont own a sporting field, if you want to play in their comp, you join their club.

With the local cricket here you join a club, pay a membership yearly fee and pay a small fee each match. This covers the umpire fee's and ground fee's. I'm not sure if insurance is oin this or your club membership fee. You are able to play 3 matches max without joining the club. This covers those that want to make sure it's what they want to do. Better than paying a couple of hundred and deciding you don't like it after a game or two. Three games should be enough to know.

[Monsta]

So do the social golfers we're talking about. It's just not a club that runs a private course.

I think its all in the wording Ashes, social golf players.
Social golf club = social golf, not comp

[Ashes]

I think its all in the wording Ashes, social golf players.
Social golf club = social golf, not comp

Why?

[Shadesy]

Or just play social golf? If you don't get any time whats the point of even playing comp?

Hole in one's wont count.

[Ashes]

Hole in one's wont count.

If Jack, SMS or Marto get a hole in one in the PGN comp at Secret Harbour, will it count?

[markTHEblake]

Jack $110 is what we get billed i dont know where it all goes.Jack is right the fees are about $50 ex gst, I suspect that the rest is going to whoever is providing you with the software access. Golf clubs buy their own costing many thousands.

[Shadesy]

If Jack, SMS or Marto get a hole in one in the PGN comp at Secret Harbour, will it count?

Of Course.. I don't see the point here?

[TheNuclearOne]

This would make a great poll thread.

[Ashes]

Of Course.. I don't see the point here?

Was joking.

[Bali_Bound]

This would make a great poll thread.
This would be a great idea

[rubin]

This would be a great idea

welcome.

Where u from - where u play?

[Hatchman]

I see it this way.......

If you want to play competition sport, no matter what the sport, you are made to join a club. I have played tennis, squash, baseball, hockey and golf. Each sport required me to join an affiliated club to play competition. The costs involve not only the comp fees but the running and organisation of the games, ie umpires etc. Why should a social group be allowed to bypass the "club" but be entitled to all the benefits????? (IMO)

They are not bypassing anything. They pay green fees at the venue they play thus are the supporting the venue they play at.
I know of a lot of a number of Golf Clubs (ones that own the course) that rely heavily on these Social Golf Clubs for their survival as memberships alone don't pay the bills for their survival. One club I used to be a member of actively pursed trying to get as many of these Social Golf Clubs to come and play at our course as it was good revenue. They paid our green fees rate (some times a negotiated discount for xxxxx amount of numbers) and ran their own comp.

[Jarro]

This would be a great idea

Nice first post.

Tell us a bit about yourself.

[sms316]

This would make a great poll thread.
It would. Now that this is "my" thread can I add one to the OP?

[Jackson]

Wow, someone actually rang up GA and complained?

[PeteyD]

Don't think you can add one after the event.

[rubin]

That is one very impressive assumption. Especially for people who are so "time poor".

correct, however halve that, and its $1600+ a year. again, just as much as what club members pay for the msot part.

[BrisVegas]

Great discussion (at least what's left of it). I'm an all or nothing kind of guy, so for me being a golfer means being a member of a club and working your life around the time and money requirements.

I don't want to think about how much money I've spent on golf membership in the last 25 years, but I don't regret any of it.

[davepuppies]

Genuine question.....

Has the general participation rates of golf declined over the last 10 years?

[Bali_Bound]

Nice first post.

Tell us a bit about yourself.

Lol sorry guys it Ben I couldn't log in from my phone with my account for some reason

[sms316]

Genuine question.....

Has the general participation rates of golf declined over the last 10 years?
In the last 5 years (that is the only stat that I have), rounds played nationally has increased by 11%. Club membership is declining.

edit - Average increase of 1.6%pa over the last 10 years.

[Dotty]

The problem with non-club golflink access is that no money is put into subsidising a bricks-and-mortar club's pennant team with free games, clothing, balls, dinner and endless drink each week. This is compounded when the club looks after their mates/family in B grade, senior, super senior, handicap and mixed pennant plus whatever junior and cadet interclub comps.

If these clubs did away with these burdens on their bottom-line, then membership would be more affordable to the ordinary golfer, and there would be less need for the Howlong-style and social club memberships. (It would also free up tee times for the paying members to be able to use their own course.)

[Hatchman]

Genuine question.....

Has the general participation rates of golf declined over the last 10 years?

Check out the PDF for all the stats you want.
http://www.golfaustralia.org.au/default.aspx?s=participation-plan

[davepuppies]

In the last 5 years (that is the only stat that I have), rounds played nationally has increased by 11%. Club membership is declining.

Thanks SMS,

Is there any data supporting the why in each case?

I ask, because maybe the current model needs to evolve in order to survive the next 10,20,50 years?

By the way, I have held membership and a valid handicap since early 90s, and do not have a firm view,either way.

I look at it as a survival of the fittest type scenario, those that change and adapt to the current, and evolving environment are the ones that survive and shape evolution.

Where do you all think the game will be both 10 and 20 years from now ( again, a serious question)

[Ashes]

For those who think Golflink should be restricted to private clubs, is it ok if it's a club based at a public access course? I'm thinking examples like Joondalup Resort and The Vines?

And is it ok for private clubs to offer pay as you play memberships (so a minimal up front membership fee and then green fees) that include a Golflink cap, if that private club wants to?

[Monsta]

They are not bypassing anything. They pay green fees at the venue they play thus are the supporting the venue they play at.
I know of a lot of a number of Golf Clubs (ones that own the course) that rely heavily on these Social Golf Clubs for their survival as memberships alone don't pay the bills for their survival. One club I used to be a member of actively pursed trying to get as many of these Social Golf Clubs to come and play at our course as it was good revenue. They paid our green fees rate (some times a negotiated discount for xxxxx amount of numbers) and ran their own comp.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that social players are not welcome, exactly the opposite, but as you stated Hatch, they play in their own comp.

[Hatchman]

Having been a member of a club previously, and now the PGN I can understand both sides.

Personally, if the courses that are local to me did not have such high nomination fees ($5k plus) i would be a member at a local club. The yearly fee's are reasonable (2ish k a year) and with the other bits and pieces you get with joining a club, it would be worthwhile.

I left my last club for 2 reasons. Firstly, I had stopped playing basically, and my 2 rounds at the club after membership renewal had cost me approx. $600 a round (based on membership costs).

What coinsides with this, is what i believe to be the single biggest issue facing golf. Time.

The population is, as a whole, becoming increasingly more time poor. The people that would be looking at club membership (blokes around my/Yoss' age - mid to late 20's) simply don't join because they don't have the time to make it worthwhile.

As an example. In my current role, i would work roughly 55hr weeks, commonly going in to work on a Saturday and/or Sunday, working back late on week days etc. Then we have to fit in time to see Family, Girlfriends (Boyfriends if your that way inclined), Friends, Fitness and then Golf. When Golf takes about 6hrs out of a day (Leave home, get to the course 20 -30 mins before for a chip and a putt, 4hr round, drink or two, pack up the car, go home) it's hard to make it fit. I know for me, where it was the top of the list a few years ago, it has, for all these other commitments, dropped to down near the bottom.

I know all of you older guys think that these social clubs are ruining the game/clubs etc - but lets face it, you have the time now being in either more senior positions, retired or working for yourself, to be able to get out play more and make joining a club worthwhile. those of us starting or in the middle of the workforce who are the ones who are meant to be growing the game, don't have the same opportunities, Thus making these social based clubs/events a far more reasonable option.

I agree 100% with Ashes, those of us that are members of these social type clubs shouldn't be allowed to participate in the large/major events (Vardon events, Open Qualifying etc) and I also agree that clubs have the right to not allow them for their own comps, if they don't want to.

I don't however see what the issue is when the guys that have joined these clubs probably wouldn't be playing much/at all if they weren't an option.

Sounds like you've got your head around the current situation with where golf is at and Golf Australia agrees about the time poor comment for a certain age group.

[PeteyD]

And what does that have to do with whether or not they can have a handicap?

[backintheswing]

My club offers membership for $600, plus bulk green fees for $600. I just pay the first $600, because with work and wet weather, I would struggle to play 20 comp rounds a year. When I do play, the green fees is $15 and comp is $10, so $25. I am surprised more clubs don't do this.

[Zeusgolf]

Then don't be scummy and pay the $5k then. Or make some sacrifices to your lifestyle to be able to play more golf. You can't have it both ways.

Well yes he can.....he is a member of a social club....

[Outcast]

Rather than banning it or banning participation in club open competitions, do you not think a better approach would be for clubs to offer a broader range of membership options to cater for the changing needs of golfers?

Different issue but, for many years I found club membership a difficult prospect, not because I was time poor or couldn't afford annual subs but, rather because the majority of clubs demanded fairly high joining fees. In my case as a Defence Member at the time, I moved locations approximately every two years & simply could not justify paying high joining fees every two years whereas the majority of members would only pay this once in their lifetime. When I approached clubs to ask for some sort of deal (often in terms of pro-rata rather than just a waiver) I was politely told to bugger off.

Again, I state that this is a different issue to the one raised initially in the OP but, it does reflect a somewhat priggish attitude on the part of some clubs with regarding to meeting the needs of prospective members. Thankfully, in more recent years, my approach to clubs regarding this issue began to receive a much warmer reception & some conditions were put on 'waiving' the joining fee such as membership for a limited number of years only (then you would pay the joining fee if you stayed longer) or, I was lucky enough to find clubs on membership drives with no joining fee.

Golf clubs often whinge about decline in memberships but, seem to do little to actually address the underlying issue of why membership is declining such as time poor, perception of not getting value for money, etc.... These social clubs have simply filled a void in the market place.

My point here (and I know I've stated it before) is that if clubs want to attract members then, they need to meet the market demand... If they did this, do you not think that it would pretty much pull the rug out from these social clubs that you are not in favour of?

[Ashes]

I think its all in the wording Ashes, social golf players.
Social golf club = social golf, not comp


Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that social players are not welcome, exactly the opposite, but as you stated Hatch, they play in their own comp.

?

[Zeusgolf]

My club offers membership for $600, plus bulk green fees for $600. I just pay the first $600, because with work and wet weather, I would struggle to play 20 comp rounds a year. When I do play, the green fees is $15 and comp is $10, so $25. I am surprised more clubs don't do this.

I wish we had this in WA.....close as i can get is rent a membership from a current member who doesnt want to play anymore...eg i dont actually pay anything to the member i just cover his yearly subs so he doesnt lose his nomination....

I think the joing/nomination fee is what is killing private golf in WA, and the only one that are cashed up atm are bogan fifo who dont really want to play golf.

[backintheswing]

I am also not sure about this declining membership argument that is being touted throughout the thread.

We have 250+ fields every Saturday with a lot of members missing out. Combine that with Comps on Mon-Thurs, I am not sure the club could handle any more in the comps.

[Ashes]

I wish we had this in WA.....close as i can get is rent a membership from a current member who doesnt want to play anymore...eg i dont actually pay anything to the member i just cover his yearly subs so he doesnt lose his nomination....

I think the joing/nomination fee is what is killing private golf in WA, and the only one that are cashed up atm are bogan fifo who dont really want to play golf.

And alot of clubs actually give FIFO workers a special deal because they don't play as often... Why they don't offer a similar option to others is beyond me.

[Bali_Bound]

Last time I played in my club comp I came first and the person I brought along with me came second or last yep 2 people in the members comp numbers are declining where I play comp

[Bali_Bound]

A good Saturday comp has about 30 players

[Outcast]

I am also not sure about this declining membership argument that is being touted throughout the thread.

We have 250+ fields every Saturday with a lot of members missing out. Combine that with Comps on Mon-Thurs, I am not sure the club could handle any more in the comps.

I haven't seen the stats, I'll be honest but, I have seen a shite load of magazine articles that talk about the decline of club golf membership.

If declining memberships are not an issue then why are there some many articles/editorials in Australian golfing magazines that opine the decline of golf club membership? Also, if declining memberships are not an issue then, why are some people/clubs so anti the social clubs picking up members they perhaps cannot absorb into their already full membership quota?

FWIW, we have pretty full fields at Cairns too but, then our membership rates are very low compared to what I have paid down south.

[backintheswing]

It was the same when I was at Oxley. Nearly impossible to get a game on Saturdays. Fields at capacity, hitting off from 6am to 1 pm.

[Zeusgolf]

I am also not sure about this declining membership argument that is being touted throughout the thread.

We have 250+ fields every Saturday with a lot of members missing out. Combine that with Comps on Mon-Thurs, I am not sure the club could handle any more in the comps.

Why do I keep hearing about all these private clubs that are struggling for members / struggling financially ?

Maybe WA is a special case....given that we are the most expensive state in AU ?

If a club in the Perth Metro area had a reduced noms and green fees for around 1k for full membership then I think they would be flush with finacial members and the comps would be full. I certainly would join but i cant get value for money paying 2k a year......and the clubs under that 2k (besides chequers) are at least 1 hour drive away (and I live 25mins from the CBD)...I just wouldnt be stuffed driving all that way and in the long run my fuel costs would come back to over 2k.

[rubin]

Last time I played in my club comp I came first and the person I brought along with me came second or last yep 2 people in the members comp numbers are declining where I play comp


A good Saturday comp has about 30 players

WTF are u talking about?

[Hatchman]

I am also not sure about this declining membership argument that is being touted throughout the thread.

We have 250+ fields every Saturday with a lot of members missing out. Combine that with Comps on Mon-Thurs, I am not sure the club could handle any more in the comps.

I think your club is in a minority. Well done to them as they obviously have the balance in what they offer correct in being able to retain a high active playing membership. Your club doesn't need to have Social Golf Clubs to help supplement their revenue and will most likely survive on it's membership alone.

The declining stats are real according to Golf Australia. The link to their paper is posted a page or two back.
I believe they are very real in S.A as some clubs that once had joining fees no longer have a joining fee and are from time to time advertising for memberships. A few others have dropped that joining fee to a fraction of what it once was as well.

[backintheswing]

For instance on Sunday it is the 4th round of our club champs, and I can't get my name on the sheet as it is full. I will get a game, but only after the top 8 in each grade get put into the seeded groups.

[Outcast]

For instance on Sunday it is the 4th round of our club champs, and I can't get my name on the sheet as it is full. I will get a game, but only after the top 8 in each grade get put into the seeded groups.

Wow, that seems poorly organised

At Cairns, you nominate for club champs, nominate am or pm tee time & you are then allocated a tee time... Those who do not wish to play club championships get to fill in any remaining gaps after the time sheet is published & are ineligible for club champs prizes (I think they run a separate comp for them).

Perhaps you should suggest this approach to your club BITS...

[3Puttpete]

Genuine question.....

Has the general participation rates of golf declined over the last 10 years?

Someone (Bruce?) posted a link to a GA report that says golf club memberships are declining at abut 1.5% a year over the last decade.

[backintheswing]

Wow, that seems poorly organised

At Cairns, you nominate for club champs, nominate am or pm tee time & you are then allocated a tee time... Those who do not wish to play club championships get to fill in any remaining gaps after the time sheet is published & are ineligible for club champs prizes (I think they run a separate comp for them).

Perhaps you should suggest this approach to your club BITS...

I am not in the club champs OC, just highlighting the fields is full with those playing champs. Our club does exactly why you said.

I can't play Saturdays due to rugby league.

[Outcast]

I am not in the club champs OC, just highlighting the fields is full with those playing champs. Our club does exactly why you said.

I can't play Saturdays due to rugby league.

Ah, righto, misunderstood your post

[3Puttpete]

Outcast, HMB used to offer half price membership to boat sailors because of the 8/8 cycle but that was in the early 2000s

[rubin]

from re-reading through it all, it would seem that there is a Massive difference in club golf in the east to that over here in WA.

I would say, on average, nominations in WA alone are $2k (if they have them), and the yearly subs prob average in at around 2k as well. And thats not including the Cream of the Crop memberships at Joondalup and Lake K.

Most clubs here in WA are screaming out for members and green fee players, and are allowing groups like PGN to play on their course. As i said, reduced fee's is better than no fee at all.

[Dotty]

Our club has a special category for Defence Force personnel, visiting OS players, etc. (Still need a proposer and a seconder.) Something like up to 2 years membership, without a joining fee.

Speirsy took this up for a year or so, when he was in Sydney.

[Outcast]

from re-reading through it all, it would seem that there is a Massive difference in club golf in the east to that over here in WA.

I would say, on average, nominations in WA alone are $2k (if they have them), and the yearly subs prob average in at around 2k as well. And thats not including the Cream of the Crop memberships at Joondalup and Lake K.

Most clubs here in WA are screaming out for members and green fee players, and are allowing groups like PGN to play on their course. As i said, reduced fee's is better than no fee at all.

Seems they operate on the same philosophy as some Airlines... we can't fill the plane so, we'll charge more to cover our costs... rather than charge less to fill the friggin plane...Man that is upside down thinking!!

FWIW when I was in Sydney in 2008, joining fee for Moore Park, East Lakes was around $2k (from memory) & annual subs about $1k. Group one courses (NSW, Concorde, The Lakes, etc) were from about $6K to $15K with annual subs around $2.5 - $3K.

I was able to gain membership at NSW GC for up to three years with no joining fee or waiting list (because I was in the ADF), I just paid annual subs for the 12 months I was stationed in Sydney.. it was interesting to me that one of the premier clubs in NSW was willing to offer such a deal to ADF members when, some of the half a...d goat tracks were not! :smt087

3PP - not sure if that is still the case; Cairns went through a couple of years with half priced membership for ADF members (amounted to about 30 people) until some of the membership complained that it wasn't fair to the general membership (still can't really see why given, we only got to play for 6 months of the year on average).

Not relevant to me anymore as I am newly civilianised & just a poor Uni student :cry:

[markTHEblake]

The problem with non-club golflink access is that no money is put into subsidising a bricks-and-mortar club's pennant team with free games, clothing, balls, dinner and endless drink each week.
Axe to grind? :-) If a club is allocating that much to Pennant they it seems they can obviously afford too. I think that is not a bad investment as it can attract golfers to a club.


Rather than banning it or banning participation in club open competitions, do you not think a better approach would be for clubs to offer a broader range of membership options to cater for the changing needs of golfers?

Many clubs do, those that dont, probably dont have to, and there is not many of those.

[Dotty]

Axe to grind? :-) If a club is allocating that much to Pennant they it seems they can obviously afford too. I think that is not a bad investment as it can attract golfers to a club.

More tongue in cheek, directed at the vocal non-GA mob.

In light of 50 members downgrading their membership category last year, it does highlight that 'what am I getting for my money?' is getting asked more often. A few friends that dropped their category, had calculated out the average ROI of their $10 comp. fee, cost per round as a full member vs. other categories vs. house membership and pay-for-play, etc.

Or their wives calculated it.

[Minor_Threat]

Then don't be scummy and pay the $5k then. Or make some sacrifices to your lifestyle to be able to play more golf. You can't have it both ways.

My thoughts exactly..

[Hatchman]

Seems they operate on the same philosophy as some Airlines... we can't fill the plane so, we'll charge more to cover our costs... rather than charge less to fill the friggin plane...Man that is upside down thinking!!

FWIW when I was in Sydney in 2008, joining fee for Moore Park, East Lakes was around $2k (from memory) & annual subs about $1k. Group one courses (NSW, Concorde, The Lakes, etc) were from about $6K to $15K with annual subs around $2.5 - $3K.

I was able to gain membership at NSW GC for up to three years with no joining fee or waiting list (because I was in the ADF), I just paid annual subs for the 12 months I was stationed in Sydney.. it was interesting to me that one of the premier clubs in NSW was willing to offer such a deal to ADF members when, some of the half a...d goat tracks were not! :smt087

3PP - not sure if that is still the case; Cairns went through a couple of years with half priced membership for ADF members (amounted to about 30 people) until some of the membership complained that it wasn't fair to the general membership (still can't really see why given, we only got to play for 6 months of the year on average).

Not relevant to me anymore as I am newly civilianised & just a poor Uni student :cry:

There's a formula for higher costs for lower a number of participants v lower costs for more participants. It's all about balance, too far either way can greatly affect cash flow and survival.
It can be quite difficult in getting the ratio correct to maximise revenue. Clubs and boards really need to work out the demographic of who they are trying to please/service.

[Minor_Threat]

Rubin, I explained all of this in the posts that were deleted to protect Bens organisation. So here goes again.

This is not a personal issue for me, I only have the best interests of the game at heart.. I have no issue whatsoever with social groups. I'm all for as many people as possible getting out there and playing the game. I do however have a massive issue with Golf Australia making available golfink handicaps to social players who are not financial members of golf clubs. I believe that if you wish to participate in the game on a competitive basis, you must be a member of a golf club, not a social club.

I don't agree with the contention that by being able to have a social club golfink that it makes it easier for someone to then transition to joining a golf club (at a higher price). In fact, I believe the opposite - that by being able to get a cheap golfink from a social or charity group disinscetivizes people from joining clubs, because they can get the benefits of a handicap and competition golf without making a contribution to the clubs. Furthermore, the existence of non club based golflinks allow current club members to opt out of a higher priced current membership which in turn hurts the clubs financially and puts pressure of the quality of service that the club can offer. I have already seen this happen and it will only get worse for the clubs who simply cannot compete on the price level that social clubs can.

Golf Australia should never have allowed this to happen. They should be promoting social golf, but only allowing handicaps to be available through the golf clubs, not social groups or charities.

Feel free to disagree.

Great post Jack, well articulated! Except for this word disinscetivizes.. haha

[rubin]

IMO, too many clubs are run by the current members of the 'boys club'/'inner circle' types who run them the way they want to, with no thought given to the future years or growth of the club. In many cases, the president and members of the comitee are popular guys, but collectively have next to no idea on how to run a business - which at the end of the day, a golf club is.

[Ashes]

For those who think Golflink should be restricted to private clubs, is it ok if it's a club based at a public access course? I'm thinking examples like Joondalup Resort and The Vines?

And is it ok for private clubs to offer pay as you play memberships (so a minimal up front membership fee and then green fees) that include a Golflink cap, if that private club wants to?

Still looking for some responses to these questions?

[Grunt]

I think I would be a pretty good candidate to tell my golf story, I am a believer of the full golf Club member system to play comp golf.

As a young kid I played golf for school sport (poorly) but it was not my number 1 sport as I was competitively Sailing, I was a member of a sailing club to participate in racing.
After a while of working I got back into golf and started to play with a pub social club. Monthly games at a couple of local courses, I liked the competitive spirit of golf. My Grandfather was a pretty good golfer in his day and said to me if I liked it that much I should join a club and play in club comps. He had given the game up due to age but he instilled in me the whole club culture that golf clubs bring, he and my uncle were members of Bonnie Doon. I could not afford Bonnie Doon on Apprentice wage so I joined Botany. As a shift worker I could not play regular comp and Botany fitted in well, cheap membership, only paid for the game you play and it was also walking distance from home. Best of all the beer was good too.

Later I got married, that did not stop the golf as I played more mid week and we moved out to the burbs. I joined Mac Grange and it fitted in with me reasonably close and good bunch of members. Soon my daughter came along and golf dropped off a little. no more weekend golf just midweek. I looked around and a few OzGolfers found Bathurst GC, I joined there and supported a country club that actually rewarded me a little with some great Sydney reciprocal rights. Things changed again and I was playing less golf so now the Bathurst membership was not economical ($700/annum) due to lack of playing. I still wanted a handicap so I joined another popular country club with OzGolfers, Howlong GC.

For a little over $100, very similar to the amount all are arguing about on here you can join a club, support a club and also get a full handicap. You get to play in all the open days that the other clubs have too. Howlong actually comment in their annual report complementing the country members that without them their very existence would be marginal.

So in end if you cant afford full membership find a country club somewhere around this big wide land and support them by joining. That way you get a handicap and they get some support that may keep their club open and may even find a next star PGA player.

So to end my rant, stop arguing about shit and find a small club to join!

[Hatchman]

IMO, too many clubs are run by the current members of the 'boys club'/'inner circle' types who run them the way they want to, with no thought given to the future years or growth of the club. In many cases, the president and members of the comitee are popular guys, but collectively have next to no idea on how to run a business - which at the end of the day, a golf club is.

I'll agree with that and add they are stuck in the past.

[Bruce Dickinson]

Why do I keep hearing about all these private clubs that are struggling for members / struggling financially ?

Maybe WA is a special case....given that we are the most expensive state in AU ?

If a club in the Perth Metro area had a reduced noms and green fees for around 1k for full membership then I think they would be flush with finacial members and the comps would be full. I certainly would join but i cant get value for money paying 2k a year......and the clubs under that 2k (besides chequers) are at least 1 hour drive away (and I live 25mins from the CBD)...I just wouldnt be stuffed driving all that way and in the long run my fuel costs would come back to over 2k.
I'm not privy to a lot of Perth private club budgets but at a $1,000 per member I would think that you would need at least 700-800 members to just to cover the maintenance (5-6 grounds staff, mechanic and super) and administration costs (manager plus possible part time help).

Is that too many members for an 18 hole course?

[Minor_Threat]

Still looking for some responses to these questions?

I dont understand Q1? Why would a resort club allow this?

Q2: Yes, I have one of these memberships currently. These memberships still provide substantial income the club in question. I pay $800 PAYP and a $40 green fee for every round.

[Ashes]

I dont understand Q1? Why would a resort club allow this?

Q2: Yes, I have one of these memberships currently. These memberships still provide substantial income the club in question. I pay $800 PAYP and a $40 green fee for every round.

You (and others) think Golflink should be limited to private clubs with their own courses. What is your position on clubs based at public access courses, like the example I mentioned?

[Bruce Dickinson]

Still looking for some responses to these questions?
I'm a member at Joondalup, I view it as being a member of a private club that shares its venue with others at selected times. Joondalup since its inception in 1985 has always had a member base and played pennants etc. The Joondalup Golf Club is a separate entity to Joondalup Golf Course and has an access/management agreement in place.

[Minor_Threat]

You (and others) think Golflink should be limited to private clubs with their own courses. What is your position on clubs based at public access courses, like the example I mentioned?

GA handicaps should be limited to clubs that maintain a golf course. Private / Public it doesn't matter.

[Ashes]

GA handicaps should be limited to clubs that maintain a golf course. Private / Public it doesn't matter.

What if the club doesn't maintain the course, but has an access agreement ( like the Joondalup example)?

[Bruce Dickinson]

What if the club doesn't maintain the course, but has an access agreement ( like the Joondalup example)?
the club makes a significant financial contribution to the maintenance of the course, has a greens committee and input into maintenance standards and expectations.

[Minor_Threat]

What if the club doesn't maintain the course, but has an access agreement ( like the Joondalup example)?

Mate I don't know the details of such an arrangement and have no experience with these.

It is a grey area and will reserve my opinion on this setup unless I saw details.

[Ashes]

the club makes a significant financial contribution to the maintenance of the course, has a greens committee and input into maintenance standards and expectations.

Not having a crack at Joondy BD, just trying to establish what the punters think the boundary is for what should and shouldn't have access to Golflink.

Do you know if The Vines is a similar arrangement to Joondy?

[rubin]

Not having a crack at Joondy BD, just trying to establish what the punters think the boundary is for what should and shouldn't have access to Golflink.

Do you know if The Vines is a similar arrangement to Joondy?

The Vines, Meadow Springs, Secret Harbour when it had a members group

[Bruce Dickinson]

Not having a crack at Joondy BD, just trying to establish what the punters think the boundary is for what should and shouldn't have access to Golflink.

Do you know if The Vines is a similar arrangement to Joondy?
didn't take it that way so no dramas, I'm happy just to provide details as required.

[Ashes]

Mate I don't know the details of such an arrangement and have no experience with these.

It is a grey area and will reserve my opinion on this setup unless I saw details.

Let's not over complicate it.

Public access course is run by a company or local government.

Someone decides to set up a golf club there and runs it as a separate incorporated body. Majority of annual subs go to the course for maintenance, the club just takes a portion to cover its own expenses.

Are you happy for it to have access to Golflink?

[Minor_Threat]

Let's not over complicate it.

Public access course is run by a company or local government.

Someone decides to set up a golf club there and runs it as a separate incorporated body. Majority of annual subs go to the course for maintenance, the club just takes a portion to cover its own expenses.

Are you happy for it to have access to Golflink?

I don't have a problem with the above arrangement.

[Ashes]

I don't have a problem with the above arrangement.

And you're still happy for the club to operate on a pay as you play basis?

[rubin]

What then, is the difference to a non course based club? The pay the ga costs. Green fees go to the club. Where is the issue?

[Minor_Threat]

And you're still happy for the club to operate on a pay as you play basis?

It is not PAYP. The golf club is paying an annual fee to the owners.


What then, is the difference to a non course based club? The pay the ga costs. Green fees go to the club. Where is the issue?

There is no commitment to the golf course.

[Ashes]

It is not PAYP. The golf club is paying an annual fee to the owners.

There is no commitment to the golf course.

So the $100 being paid up front is the difference (which would be two tenths of f all by the time GA fees, insurances and computer system costs come out)?

[markTHEblake]

The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews does not have its own golf course.

[sms316]

The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews does not have its own golf course. Nor do they have access to golflink.

[Minor_Threat]

So the $100 being paid up front is the difference (which would be two tenths of f all by the time GA fees, insurances and computer system costs come out)?

Like I said I need details.

$100 IMO is not a sufficient contribution to golf course up keep. Before you ask for $ values, this all depends on geographic location.

[Minor_Threat]

The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews does not have its own golf course.

What fees do they pay to GA?

[Bali_Bound]

I don't see a problem with social clubs having golf link access we have another social club with members that have social golf links these members wouldn't normally play much however these player do play on our events, to give you and idea one of these clubs with this access has pumped just over $150,000.00 into one of the local golf clubs over the last 3 years if this social group didn't offer golf links and events like this I'm sure we would have only pumped about $20k into this one club. Remember this is only one course we support at least 10 different golf courses every year. So I guess what I'm saying is if we didn't have this golflink
access we wouldn't have these members and we wouldn't be able to support these golf club. This is money we have pumped in not including what the players have spent at the course.

[Minor_Threat]

I don't see a problem with social clubs having golf link access we have another social club with members that have social golf links these members wouldn't normally play much however these player do play on our events, to give you and idea one of these clubs with this access has pumped just over $150,000.00 into one of the local golf clubs over the last 3 years if this social group didn't offer golf links and events like this I'm sure we would have only pumped about $20k into this one club. Remember this is only one course we support at least 10 different golf courses every year. So I guess what I'm saying is if we didn't have this golflink
access we wouldn't have these members and we wouldn't be able to support these golf club. This is money we have pumped in not including what the players have spent at the course.

If no club offered golf link you would still have to play somewhere.

[Bali_Bound]

Golf link is needed for most of our state national events and international events we would lose half these players if this social group didn't offer golf link at the price they do. I know at least half these people simply wouldn't play because they can not afford club membership

[Minor_Threat]

Golf link is needed for most of our state national events and international events we would lose half these players if this social group didn't offer golf link at the price they do. I know at least half these people simply wouldn't play because they can not afford club membership

Why wouldn't they play socially still? What is the difference?

[sms316]

Golf link is needed for most of our state national events and international events we would lose half these players if this social group didn't offer golf link at the price they do. I know at least half these people simply wouldn't play because they can not afford club membership What group is this?

[PeteyD]

They get to play in national and international Amputee events as they have a recognised handicap.

I do not understand the relationship between handicap and maintaining a course.

[Minor_Threat]

They get to play in national and international Amputee events as they have a recognised handicap.

I do not understand the relationship between handicap and maintaining a course.

I don't have a problem with amputees having access to something like this. There is a good reason as you have mentioned with National, International events. Bens group however is offering handicaps to able bodied people also however.

[Ashes]

Like I said I need details.

$100 IMO is not a sufficient contribution to golf course up keep. Before you ask for $ values, this all depends on geographic location.

Just assume the $100 covers the private clubs admin costs of registering the player only. They reckon they'll be better off financially by capturing the green fees paid by these players when they come in for comps.

Should the club not be allowed to do this?

[rubin]

I don't have a problem with amputees having access to something like this. There is a good reason as you have mentioned with National, International events. Bens group however is offering handicaps to able bodied people also however.

They can't pick and choose. It's discriminating and therefore illegal.

[golfbound]

They can't pick and choose. It's discriminating and therefore illegal.

Correct Rubin

We did offer it to amputees only but then had complaints from our social members and disable members. discrimination was mentioned in these complaints.

[Webster]

And then started a thread to offer golflink to "anyone who wants one"

[Ashes]

And then started a thread to offer golflink to "anyone who wants one"

Why shouldn't he if it is open to anyone?

[Webster]

Not following the thread very closely are you Ashes.

QAGA has been afforded a great privilege by GA which Ben chose to abuse. Hence the massive backpeddle and removal of all the posts and renaming of the thread when GA/GQ found out.

[Minor_Threat]

If there are discrimination issues than unfortunately bad luck to amputees and the like. You will need to join a golf club.

[Ashes]

Not following the thread very closely are you Ashes.

QAGA has been afforded a great privilege by GA which Ben chose to abuse. Hence the massive backpeddle and removal of all the posts and renaming of the thread when GA/GQ found out.

Didn't realise you were just going back over old ground.

It's not a privilege, anyone can do it if they have enough numbers and go through the process.

[golfbound]

As i said the more people playing golf the better, we run social comp days and a big yearly open that is open to anyone with a golf link we have great prizes last years event had a BMW but you had to have a golf link to win it. These are social players who normally start out with us then slowly play comps around the place then join a club they like most of our memberships to Gl only last a year or 2 then they move onto full membership if they can afford it. It works 2 ways, it allows people who normally wouldnt play to play and eventually join a club and it also allows our less financial members to play in state, national and international events which they do need a recognised handicap for. Someone asked before if they cant afford a full membership how do they afford to go to and play in these events? The answer is sponsors and funding from other bodies. Most amputees obtain there own sponsors an funding to get to each event, these sponsors are happy to get them to the event etc but most dont want to cover golf course membership for the year. These event are not just about golf these events are about social interaction after a traumatic experience.

[Pencil]

Didn't realise you were just going back over old ground.

It's not a privilege, anyone can do it if they have enough numbers and go through the process.

Exactly, all you have to do is the paperwork and pay.

[golfbound]

We do have approval to issue it to anyone providing we follow the correct procedures.

[PeteyD]

What about a club like this one - Tour Fore

(http://thetourforegolfers.weebly.com/)These guys maintain handicaps, play their own competitions at courses (paying slightly discounted green fees due to the size of the group).

[Webster]

Didn't realise you were just going back over old ground.

It's not a privilege, anyone can do it if they have enough numbers and go through the process.

You just keeping asking the same question Ashes, so you should expect the same answers. You've obviously made your mind, as have I, so you are naive if you expect us to agree.

I see it as a privilege for a charity based, non golf club group offering handicaps to the masses, you see it as an entitlement. Clearly we do no see eye to eye and never will.

[golfbound]

What about a club like this one - Tour Fore

(http://thetourforegolfers.weebly.com/)These guys maintain handicaps, play their own competitions at courses (paying slightly discounted green fees due to the size of the group).

The igolf membership is what we have but we are not making anything from it

[golfbound]

What do you think about what PeteD posted Jack?

[Pencil]

You just keeping asking the same question Ashes, so you should expect the same answers. You've obviously made your mind, as have I, so you are naive if you expect us to agree.

I see it as a privilege for a charity based, non golf club group offering handicaps to the masses, you see it as an entitlement. Clearly we do no see eye to eye and never will.

Golflink are selling it to the masses if you can organised enough to make an official group. So how is it a privilege?

[PeteyD]

This is the only restriction -
A Bona-fide Body is a formally constituted Club, association or group formed primarily for the purpose of
conducting ongoing golf events, played in accordance with the Rules of Golf and appropriate local rules, or
otherwise to administer golf for a defined area or group of golfers.

Nothing to do with course maintenance, ownership or anything.

Handicaps are owned by Golf Australia, not by the clubs.

[Webster]

It's a privilege because you dont have to join a golf club to get it. Which is the problem. GA ought to be ashamed.

We who disagree with it already know that and object to it. You lot who see it differently have the opposing view.

[Steve]

I find this quite amusing, as the original design of Golflink in Australia was a body to keep and register handicaps for persons who did not belong to a club, hence no means of recording a handicap, clubs kept there own and if you visited another club you would to a card with your handicap listed or the club would ring your home course to confirm you HCP.

[PeteyD]

Not sure that GA could prevent affiliated bodies from joining and administering handicaps based on whether they have a course or not. I wonder if there were legal concerns there.

What is the main objection? Is it allowing these bodies to administer a handicap, or that people with an AGU handicap can enter open competitions?

[Ashes]

You just keeping asking the same question Ashes, so you should expect the same answers. You've obviously made your mind, as have I, so you are naive if you expect us to agree.

I see it as a privilege for a charity based, non golf club group offering handicaps to the masses, you see it as an entitlement. Clearly we do no see eye to eye and never will.

I'm not trying to persuade you Jack.

[3Puttpete]

Not sure that GA could prevent affiliated bodies from joining and administering handicaps based on whether they have a course or not. I wonder if there were legal concerns there.

What is the main objection? Is it allowing these bodies to administer a handicap, or that people with an AGU handicap can enter open competitions?

As I understand it the objection is this:

As a member of Riverlakes who maintain my hcp, it's ok if I pay to play in a Redland Bay black marker event but if QAGA maintain my hcp I shouldn't be allowed to pay to play in the black marker event because it's costing Riverlakes my membership.

If I wasn't a member anywhere and QAGA didn't maintain my hcp I could play social golf at Redland Bay because that doesn't cost Riverlakes anything.

[PeteyD]

That's even more confusing. Besides which I have bad feelings about riverlakes ;)

So the idea is that Open back marker events (AGU handicap required) should only be open to those that a members of golf clubs? If you use the GA definition then they are open to anyone who holds an AGU handicap.

I am fairly certain that Nudgee refused to allow those on the old Robina membership ($100 one) to play in their open events.

[3Puttpete]

I think that's the argument.

Autocorrect wouldn't accept poolakes :)

[markTHEblake]

As I understand it the objection is this: No. You can still play in that Black marker event you just get to pay the full green fee not the concessional one.

[PeteyD]

Yep. I have no issue with that at all. I do object to the concept that the clubs own the handicaps, which appears one of the arguments put forward.

[3Puttpete]

Why can't the club offer me a concessional green fee?

[Dotty]

I am fairly certain that Nudgee refused to allow those on the old Robina membership ($100 one) to play in their open events.
A few years back, many western Sydney clubs added a surcharge on their open days, for Riverside Oaks members.

Full membership at Riverside Oaks was ~$120 pa. But they had to pay full-tilt for each game on their home course ($65-85) which is also 45 min from civilisation.

[markTHEblake]

Why can't the club offer me a concessional green fee?
I explained that a few pages back.

[wazandnic]

Not usually one to chime into these online debates, but I have folowed this thread from the start and may as well add my 2c also...

I do see both points of view. I am a member at a club, (have been for 25 odd years), am in the so called busy 30-40 odd age group, with wife and kids and am time poor... and agree I dont get enough out of my membership, but I remain a member for the main reason that will be explained below.

Now I also have a few mates (same age group) that have joined Howlong to gain access to a handicap. They play maybe 3-8 times a year max SOCIALLY, but the reason for them getting a handicap is to enable them the opportunity to play in the odd comp game. Social golf in Sydney on the weekend particularly in winter is a waste of time unless you are prepared to play late, finish in the dark, etc. So them having a handicap provides a slight chance they may get another game or two throughout the year at a more opportune time.

If the online handicap didn't exist would they play these extra couple of games, no. Everyone loses. Would they join a club and pay $1000 to get the handicap, no as there is no way they believe they are going to get any value for money... but does the fact they are paying the $100 and then playing in the odd comp game help a golf club out, for sure it does, for they are filling a vacant spot and bringing in some dollars the club woudn't have made if they hadn't played. So yes they are supporting a club and a club that is local to them.

The way I see it them having a handicap is providing them a chance to get some more games in, win for them, win for the club they choose to play at. Without it they don't play, simple as that.

Now does it irk me they pay $100 and I pay $1000, yes... BUT and this is where any of these online handicaps fall over... even though they have a handicap it doesn't mean they have access to booking any time they want WHEN they want. For me this is the big seller. I pay for membership at a club so that if I want a game on a particular day and particular time (what I need as, as mentoned above I am time poor) I generally am able to book it. They are limited to trying to score a time IF there are any free times. To argue they are taking spots and not contributing to an actual golf club doesn't ring for mine.

Now the thing I also agree with is that clubs are not doing enough to attract members and golfers to the game. Clubs need to come up with more of these types of enticements and you would have full sheets every week (assuming there is a population around the course to fill it that is!) As example my club had a pay as you play membership which I took up a couple of years back. You pay less at the start but more per game. Basically if you play more than 40 times a year you would be better off as a full member. It was a great incentive but too many members were switching over to it so the canned it. Membership declined. Go figure!


Now and as I say I have followed this whole thread and for mine I really think a lot of the issues and debate that has arisen stems to the OP use of the word "charitable donation" for a handicap. I believe this has created confusion and wasn't the intent. The way I even originally interpretted it and what is actually meant to be was that if you want a handicap, you can form any old group pay the necessary fees and GA will issue you with golflink handicaps. This is I believe what Ben's group are doing. All above board and within the rules. They get charged $110 from GA, (likely more than a normal golf club because unlike an actual golf club they do not have to buy the addiitonal software, computers, support etc) and then they charge you $110. So why create all this drama towards Ben and his group. They were doing nothing wrong but providing an above board service.

As stated if there really is an issue it needs to be with GA, but again my thoughts, they really are promoting the game by getting guys out playing that maybe / probably wouldn't... that provides money to a golf club that possibly wouldn't get those funds if these payers didn't fill the spot... and really if clubs (and members of clubs) want to complain then really they should be looking at other options they present to compete. Howlong does it and this seems to be ok because they are a "golf club" so why can't any other golf club? Boards!

[Pencil]

Waz, brilliant!

[golfbound]

Spot on Waz.....

[Leon Phelps]

Waz, brilliant!

+ 2
Great post

[TheNuclearOne]

This been polled (for peace of mind and closure) yet :D

[MAZA68]

http://www.hillsgolfclub.com.au/ --------------- Handicap deal and more for SEQ Golfers.